This thread's sole intention is to provide the developers the neccessary information to assure the F-22 is accurately depicted in HAWX.

I do not want to see the F-22's capabilities ruined to give the game "balancing". That would be a crime.

Of course, if any one disputes one of my facts, I will gladly provide a link to where the info was obtained.

FACT 1

Supercruise: The Raptor WITHOUT afterburner covers a larger flight envelope than nearly ALL fighters in full afterburner. The Raptor cruises like any other fighter does in full afterburner, except that where any other fighter can spend mere minutes flying at that speed, this is the Raptor's normal "cruising" speed! Fighters outside of the F-22 DO NOT fly at MACH SPEEDS to conserve fuel. The second equally important advantage is that by not using its afterburner, the Raptor effectively reduces the range (due to no afterburner) and reaction time (due to its speed) of ANY IRST system trying to find and track it. The F-22 has a confirmed supercruise speed of Mach 1.82 (1200 MPH).

FACT 2

Stealth(Radar) - Its forward RCS is often quoted as 0.0001 m^2 (That's roughly the size of a marble)... This is NOT the F117 we are talking about here!... The F22 has wide-band, all-aspect stealth (The highest degree, of stealth ever fielded) designed to defeat threats such as the SA-10 and -20 systems, among others... The Russians claim they can detect (S-300V and P series) a 0.001 m^2 target at 90 km... So an F22 flying straight at the site would be detected at 45 km (It sounds like the S300P is a major threat, but if you analyze this, 45 km = approx. 25 miles... The range of the SDB is in excess of 65 miles, and the Raptor carries 8 of them (plus 2 Amraam and 2 AIM9)

FACT 3

Stealth (Infrared) The Raptor is coated with a "Paint" which reduces its IR signature due to friction (Boeing developed it)... Also, the engine nozzles are made of a high strength, temp- and pressure- tolerant, ceramic-based material, which is obviously custom-designed and expensive: It reduces the heat signature of the exhaust nozzle. So, in foul weather IR systems suck against any aircraft, and in good weather, against a Raptor, your detection range is reduced.

FACT 4

Avionincs(radar): The F22 carries the first AESA radar carried by a fighter, and the most powerful radar fielded in a tactical aircraft. The APG-77 can detect a 1m^2 target at >100 miles, in LPI (Low-Probability of Intercept) mode... The frequency of the radar changes over 1000 times per second, and each of the >1500 AESA modules can be electronically steered and its power levels changed individually... The -77s antenna element can (passively) detect an aircraft's radar from >250 miles.. This information can be used by the ALR-94 EWS system to passively target the aircraft from very long range, without ever using its own radar, passing the info directly to the Amraam guidance computer, and updating it regularly in-flight... This allows the Amraam to be launched from maximum range without ever giving away the Raptor's position... Basically, the APG-77 is unchallenged in air-to-air. The -77 has ground attack modes which allow it to hit a target with a 1000Lb JDAM from >25 miles or a 300 Lb SDB from >65 miles. The JDAM has been dropped at Mach 1.5 and 50000 ft, the SDB is being tested as we speak. Avionics(defensive)

FACT 5

The ALR-94 is the most sophisticated fully integrated Electronics Warfare System ever developed... It took one of the ten most powerful computers in the world to test and refine the system... The ALR-94 consists of multiple sensors, scattered throughout the aircraft, which give it 360 degree, very-long-range passive detection of air AND ground threats... The difference between the ALR-94 and all previous systems is the sheer power of the system (the spectrum of threats i.e., bandwidth, detected is mind-boggling) and its proven ability to identify, prioritize, geo-locate, and then target air and ground threats well before the Raptor is detected. The system's known capabilities are in actuality a MAJOR part of the Raptor's Stealth capabilities (being able to accurately detect, track and target in a passive way from very long range is one of the reasons why the USAF originally demanded, then opted out of, developing a new-gen IRST for the Raptor: Experts familiar with the design requirements for the ALR-94 now suspect that the ALR-94s bandwidth may include the IR wavelengths - essentually it can cover the role of the DAS system being developed for the F-35, or a high-power IRST like on an F-14 or SU-27).. A system like this is not something you "bolt on" to a 4th gen! - It is part of the brains of the aircraft.

FACT 6

Avionics (computer processing): The computing power of the Raptor puts it shoulders above anything else flying... This computing power is necessary to filter all the info supplied by the APG-77, the ALR-94 and its COM/Nav systems, as quickly as possible, so the Raptor can maintain its stealth advantage: This puts all aircraft it engages at a HUGE disadvantage... How do you engage an aircraft which your sensors cannot accurately target, which has been "observing you from very long range, and whose maneuvering/speed/targeting capabilities you cannot match. In 4th gen fighters, computers are used for specific tasks... In the F-22, the computer's signal processing power enables it to soak in much more info and present it to the pilot in a way that he can react quickly and end the fight on his terms.

FACT 7

Maneuverability: This is an area which is misunderstood... The F-22 uses a COMBINATION of thrust vectoring, highly refined aerodynamics, very high-thrust engines(especially in non-afterburning mode), and HUGE control surfaces to allow high maneuverability throughout its entire flight envelope, low to very high speed. No aircraft out there is going to outmaneuver a Raptor blasting in from 50000 ft at 1200 mph... The fact is, the Raptor will be able to engage and disengage any 4th gen, non-supercruising fighter at will, because they cannot match its speed and maneuverability. Most times, the Raptor pilot will simply choose to engage from long range, undetected and then move in for close-range, from-behind shots on targets who survive the BVR.

FACT 8

Wing loading: Wing loading is the loaded weight of the aircraft divided by the area of the wing. It is broadly reflective of the aircraft's lift-to-mass ratio, which affects its rate of climb, load-carrying ability, and turn performance. The F-22's wing loading is 66 lb/ft 2 (322 kg/m 2). Plus, you need to factor in the most important thing of all! There will be zero stores on the wings in stealth configuration (This is the normal operating configuration). No other aircraft can match this capablity.

FACT 9

Engine thrust: This is something I see that Ubisoft and the devs have already made an error on. Yes, the most common bit of information regarding the F-22's F119-PW-100 engine thrust have placed it in the 35,000 LB class per engine. Correction! It's 37,000 LBS per engine for an increase of 4000 lbs combined!! Major Paul "MAX" Moga (A Raptor test pilot) has publicly stated this.

FACT 10


FACT 11

That just cost $137.5 Million.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatter61:
FACT 10
http://www.alert5.com/newsphotos/f18fgunf22.jpg

FACT 11

That just cost $137.5 Million.

I was declined access to that page. Judging by the title of the JPG, it must be the one of the F-18 having the F-22 in a gun sight.




If these are the pictures you were trying to show...Here is a couple of questions for you.

1 - Does this prove anything but the fact the Raptor was WVR gun locked?
2 - Does this picture proove the Raptor was shot down?
3 - Do you know what the ROE were during this excerise?
4 - Do you know what happened during this excerise prior to this photo?
5 - Do you know what scenerio's were in place for this exercise? Odds??

Way to many variables involved Tomcatter.

And BTW, I know of a few F-22's that have been splashed in Red Air exercises, but considering the HUNDREDS of planes downed by the F-22, I believe the Raptor enjoys an excellent record breaking KDR.

1. Yes, that's a pipper on the target. I believe the black square indicates trigger depressed.
2. No, but I imagine flying sans wing would be rather difficult.
3-5. Nope. But, there's nothing saying that the odds or ROE weren't in the F-22's favor either. Would the USAF want to cut the legs out from under itself by letting the 22 get waxed in exercises?

quote:

Originally posted by maxpontiac:
And BTW, I know of a few F-22's that have been splashed in Red Air exercises, but considering the HUNDREDS of planes downed by the F-22, I believe the Raptor enjoys an excellent record breaking KDR.

...in simulated combat.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatter61:
1. Yes, that's a pipper on the target. I believe the black square indicates trigger depressed.
2. No, but I imagine flying sans wing would be rather difficult.
3-5. Nope. But, there's nothing saying that the odds or ROE weren't in the F-22's favor either. Would the USAF want to cut the legs out from under itself by letting the 22 get waxed in exercises?

quote:

Originally posted by maxpontiac:
And BTW, I know of a few F-22's that have been splashed in Red Air exercises, but considering the HUNDREDS of planes downed by the F-22, I believe the Raptor enjoys an excellent record breaking KDR.

...in simulated combat.

1 - Agreed. But given the right scenerio, a P-51 Mustang could even have it's gun sights on your F-14. It proves nothing. Yet the Anti-Raptor-Crowd cling to this like an ace up their clueless sleeve.

2 - Speculation. No one knows what would have happened IF that was real gun fire. Speaking of flying without a wing, did you ever see the 3 winged Eagle? Amazing. Flying without a wing is possible, although improbable.

3-5 - This is where doing proper research pays off, Tomcatter. Pick a Red Flag Exercise in which the Raptor was featured and I will tell you how many Raptors were there, what there job was, and what the Red and Blue teams were allowed to do. In all likelihood (as is nearly all cases), the Raptors were flying in a 8 to 14 ship contingent, while being severely outnumbered.

6 - Please. You came into this thread, posted a pic of a "simulated" WVR lock on the F-22, and posted on how the USAF just lost 137.5 million. You then play down the significance of the Raptors exercise dominance.

Bonus - If common sense does not apply to you in regards to the F-22, we can take this to a scientific level, and use real world physics and data on lets say, the F-22 versus the F-14.

Bonus 2 - Perhaps I could post quotes from Generals, aviation experts, and Pilots (US and Foreign) alike when it comes this aircraft and what it is capable of.

We have had a discussion similar to this in the past, and for whatever reason, you continue not to embrace the Raptor for what it's worth. This tells me you are either very young and ignorant, or old and stubborn. Perhaps it's neither, and you just like to argue, albeit in a losing cause.

Fact # 12 The F-22 prototype was the YF-22

Fact # 13 The direct competitor for the YF-22 was the YF-23

Fact # 14 The YF-23 looks cooler.

Fact # 15 A close variant to the F-22 will be FB-22 if it will come into production.

Fact # 16 The X-35 and F-35 are similar in appearance to the YF-22.

everyone can read the latest air force magazine.
(the topic is:Raptor roars in)

in the article:Raptor roars in,USAF claimed that in April 2008,two F-22 squadrons joined the ORI(Operational Readiness Inspection)training,flew 112 missions,fought against a composite air force(including F-15,AT-38 and NAVY SUPER HORNET),finally the killing ratio is 220:0(in two days).

what does this mean??it means that maybe SUPER HORNET has the chance to take out Raptor one or two times while dogfighting(probably the Raptor pilot made the mistakes).but as F-22 can use it's full air combat ability(not only it's maneuverability,but also it's SA-gathering,supercruise,and stealth abilities),even SUPER HORNET has very advanced avionic system and some low observation designs,SUPER HORNET still has very little chances to defeat F-22.


also in this article about the F-22:
1.maximum speed at high altitude:Mach 2.25(in 45000ft with full AB)
2.maximum speed at low altitude:Mach 1.40(sea level,with full AB)
3.maximum supercruise speed:Mach 1.82
4.minimum 360-degree turn radius at low altitude:750ft

Fact 1) HAWX is not a simulator.
Fact 2) One plane to rule them all sucks for multiplayer.
Fact 3) You don't get money from advertising and defending the F-22 so much. (neither do I for not worshipping it :P)

quote:

Originally posted by maxpontiac:
1 - Agreed. But given the right scenerio, a P-51 Mustang could even have it's gun sights on your F-14. It proves nothing. Yet the Anti-Raptor-Crowd cling to this like an ace up their clueless sleeve.

2 - Speculation. No one knows what would have happened IF that was real gun fire. Speaking of flying without a wing, did you ever see the 3 winged Eagle? Amazing. Flying without a wing is possible, although improbable.

3-5 - This is where doing proper research pays off, Tomcatter. Pick a Red Flag Exercise in which the Raptor was featured and I will tell you how many Raptors were there, what there job was, and what the Red and Blue teams were allowed to do. In all likelihood (as is nearly all cases), the Raptors were flying in a 8 to 14 ship contingent, while being severely outnumbered.

6 - Please. You came into this thread, posted a pic of a "simulated" WVR lock on the F-22, and posted on how the USAF just lost 137.5 million. You then play down the significance of the Raptors exercise dominance.

Bonus - If common sense does not apply to you in regards to the F-22, we can take this to a scientific level, and use real world physics and data on lets say, the F-22 versus the F-14.

Bonus 2 - Perhaps I could post quotes from Generals, aviation experts, and Pilots (US and Foreign) alike when it comes this aircraft and what it is capable of.

We have had a discussion similar to this in the past, and for whatever reason, you continue not to embrace the Raptor for what it's worth. This tells me you are either very young and ignorant, or old and stubborn. Perhaps it's neither, and you just like to argue, albeit in a losing cause.

You seem awfully defensive.

1. Yes, a P-51 could get guns on "my" F-14. (Is that supposed to hurt my feelings?) It would prove, same as the HUD capture, that aircraft in the gunsight is not invincible, invulnerable, invisible. You say "anti-Raptor" like there is a big conspiracy or something.

2. A little speculation. What is certain is, if the gun were loaded, there would be several 20mm cannon rounds tearing up that airframe. I never said flying without a wing was "impossible."

3-5. Please go ahead and tell us all about those exercises. My point still makes sense. The USAF would want to justify a ridiculously expensive aircraft by producing a ridiculously lopsided KDR. Bottom line is, until missiles really leave the rails, and bullets fly, we only have a "good idea" of what the outcome will be.

6. I posted a pic of an "actual" WVR gunshot (minus the bullets).

Bonus: Sure you could spin your wheels like that only to have me tell you that it comes down to the pilots. One mistake even by a superior pilot (even flying a superior aircraft) could be enough to make it a bad day. I bet the Tomcat would have a helluva time trying to bag a 22. But, yeah, I think it is still possible.

Bonus 2: Quote whatever you want, if it makes you feel better.

I was not aware we'd had a similar argument - I don't keep track of them. I would say you are incorrect either way. I think I'm more of the young and stubborn type.

quote:

Originally posted by GhostRiderLSOV:
Fact 1) HAWX is not a simulator.
Fact 2) One plane to rule them all sucks for multiplayer.
Fact 3) You don't get money from advertising and defending the F-22 so much. (neither do I for not worshipping it :P)

1 - It's not a simulator per se, but we do NOT know the extent of the realism. So what is your point?

2 - Not if HAWX is done correctly. The F-22 is a TRUE GEN-5 aircraft. There are plenty of other GEN-5 aircraft in the feilded, prototype stages, and development. This post was simply done to voice my opinion in regards to the fact on how the Raptor does not need to be in the same class as the GEN-4 and GEN-4++++ airplane.

3 - Who is worshipping the F-22. I stated FACTUAL DATA (public) on the airplane to list it's capabilities. Now, if my name had Raptor in it, and there was Raptor sig and avatar, you might have a point. I love aviation, and the Raptor just happens to be the pinnacle of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mig-29:
Fact # 13 The direct competitor for the YF-22 was the YF-23

Fact # 14 The YF-23 looks cooler.

Problem with the YF-23 was it's ALPHA performance was worse then the YF-22, and it's ordinance storage was far more complex.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatter61:
You seem awfully defensive.

1. Yes, a P-51 could get guns on "my" F-14. (Is that supposed to hurt my feelings?) It would prove, same as the HUD capture, that aircraft in the gunsight is not invincible, invulnerable, invisible. You say "anti-Raptor" like there is a big conspiracy or something.

2. A little speculation. What is certain is, if the gun were loaded, there would be several 20mm cannon rounds tearing up that airframe. I never said flying without a wing was "impossible."

3-5. Please go ahead and tell us all about those exercises. My point still makes sense. The USAF would want to justify a ridiculously expensive aircraft by producing a ridiculously lopsided KDR. Bottom line is, until missiles really leave the rails, and bullets fly, we only have a "good idea" of what the outcome will be.

6. I posted a pic of an "actual" WVR gunshot (minus the bullets).

Bonus: Sure you could spin your wheels like that only to have me tell you that it comes down to the pilots. One mistake even by a superior pilot (even flying a superior aircraft) could be enough to make it a bad day. I bet the Tomcat would have a helluva time trying to bag a 22. But, yeah, I think it is still possible.

Bonus 2: Quote whatever you want, if it makes you feel better.

I was not aware we'd had a similar argument - I don't keep track of them. I would say you are incorrect either way. I think I'm more of the young and stubborn type.

Defensive? If by that you mean I created a thread all the while knowing people would come and here and post something that would cause a discussion? Is this not what MB's are for? To discuss and defend one's point??

1 - Not at all. It's basic human pyschology. People tend to understand things alot better when they find or see something they identify with. Of course airplanes no matter the technology level are invincible. Anyone would be a fool to believe so. But, the same logic applies to an individual if they fail to recognize what is obvious. My point? The Legacy aircraft that the USAF and USN (F-14, F-15, F-16) introduced were a leap above the airplanes they replaced (F-4,F-5).

2 - Regardless of how "little" the speculation is, there is still guess work involved. I am not aware of the outcome of the F-22 and F-18 engagement. What excerise was this taken from? (It has been publicly stated that the first F-22 downed in combat was against an F-16 in a Red Flag excerise.) I would like some background on that picture. Do you have it?? I would love to track down where and when this occured. Plus, did you ever see the F-15 which lost one of it's wings still fly and then land???

3 - I fail to understand why are so quick to discredit any information of the F-22? What is cause of this?? Seriously??? Anyways, to be honest, there have been several dozen Red Flag exercises with the Raptor, and I could spend hours posting each one. With that said, I will post the details pertaining to the one in where the F-16 shot down the F-22 (It was 3 F-16's vs 1 F-22, with Capt. Percle at the Raptor's control - all 3 Vipers were downed, as well).

Red Flag 7-2.2

Red Air
F-15 - Nellis USA
F-16 - Nellis USA

Blue Air
F-22 - Langley USA

In this exercise, the F-22 had a record 36-1 KDR. The F-22's flew in a 6 to 8 ship formation, while the Aggressors broke off into multiple 4-8 ship groups under the protection of Jammers, undisclosed eggress locations and altitudes, and the ability to regenerate after being killed. All of which made ZERO difference, despite putting the F-22's at outnumbered odds.

6 - Completely hypocritical on your part Tomcatter. You state that the F-18's WVR gun lock is "actual" yet dismiss the Raptor's as "simulation"?? Isn't this all the same??

Bonus - There would be no spinning neccessary. I would simply define the F-22 by using numbers. Math has an excellent way of providing factual data that's impossible to dispute. While I agree that the pilot is a huge contributor in this game, he or she is STILL roughly 50% of equation. I don't care if you put the best F-15 ace in his Eagle, and match him versus Capt. Percle and his Raptor because in the end you could run 100 dogfights, and the results would be lopsided as ever. If the pilots are of equal skill, the airplane will almost always decide the outcome. This is not my opinion, it is a well known fact among pilots. And yes, pilots do make mistakes, but can you tell me what is the most common outcome in air to air engagments? Nearly all modern engagements end when Pilot A sees and kills Pilot B without "B" not even knowing what hit 'em. The F-22 is unequaled in this department (as well as others)

Bonus 2 - Whatever makes me feel better? Get a grip on how to discuss and debate things Tomcatter, posting evidence to back one's opinon has nothing to do with feelings. If you can't understand that concept, you best not enter discussions like this.

You chimed in on a discussion I was having with someone else when I first arrived here. I am incorrect? On what? Back it up with some factual data and not some inflated biased opinion that has ZERO warrant!

Young and Stubborn, eh? Explains alot. To young to no any better, all the while being to stubborn to realise the error of your ways. Makes sense.

Tell me, what makes the Tomcat so great in your eyes?

Whoa, Max, seriously dude, you need to get a life, or, at least a girlfriend man. You obviously have a hard on for the F22s (and that is fine I guess if that floats your boat) but if you hope/expect the developers to incorporate everything you copied/pasted at the beginning of the thread, well, I've got some airport approach land to sell ya.

Now, go outside and get some sun. Chicks dig a tan....not so crazy about the pasty skin tones one can expect to get from sitting in front of a monitor all day.

TC

quote:

Originally posted by TopCat-SE:
Whoa, Max, seriously dude, you need to get a life, or, at least a girlfriend man. You obviously have a hard on for the F22s (and that is fine I guess if that floats your boat) but if you hope/expect the developers to incorporate everything you copied/pasted at the beginning of the thread, well, I've got some airport approach land to sell ya.

Now, go outside and get some sun. Chicks dig a tan....not so crazy about the pasty skin tones one can expect to get from sitting in front of a monitor all day.

TC

Excuse me while I laugh at you for throwing out garbage in a thread with discussions in it.

Plus, it's obvious the developers look at this forum, and anyone with common sense could have figured that out if they bothered to read some of the topics.

It's a shame that you have nothing to add to this thread but insults to me, all the while generalizing people who post on MB's as those without a life.

As far as sitting at a computer screen all day, yes, it's what I do for living, and that info was handily available if you bothered to look at my profile before throwing out grade-school insults.

But, hey thanks for showing us how cool you are.

Ouch, sorry if I touched a raw nerve. But, to be honest, your response pretty much confirms my original points.

I have read quite a few of the topics on this forum. Too bad there are so many of the "gee what color flames would you paint on your plane" variety. Or, like yours, demanding the utmost in realism etc. Hello, in case you haven't noticed, developers aren't rushing to create those kind of games because they wouldn't sell. Face it, there are only soooooo many hard core sim fans. Fact of life, get over it.

And no, I didn't read your bio so I could find out all about you. Although I'm sure it is fascinating reading. Speaking of reading, while the devs may drop in here on occasion, do you really think they are basing their development on the posts here? Puleze. That's not the way it works. Sorry to burst your bubble.

TC