Communist? Where do you see a communist, huh mister capitalist?!
and stop with this bull*hit about communism and unstopable America...I'm saying facts...Sukhoi planes are phantastic!
I would to see F-22 pilot saying your word to Sukhoi pilot after Raptor is shot down

quote:

Originally posted by sportsislyfe4me:

quote:

Originally posted by SkyRaptor_RUS:

quote:

Originally posted by PatriotsPride:
I wonder which plane if any would actually even have a chance in competing with it? Perhaps the European Typhoon?

Su-35BM
Mig-35
Su-30
almost all Russian 4++ generation fighters with plasma stealth can shoot it down!

And when PAK FA will come out F-22 will be the past

communist never will beat america ever

yeah right...talk to the hand!

quote:

Originally posted by Reconning_GRSC6:
Lol it all depends on the pilot

Unless I missed it, the above post is the only one that got it right.

People can prattle on about the "on paper" abilities of jets all they want. But if you have a complete dill-hole behind the stick, he's gonna get waxed by a crack fighter pilot even if the odds are technically stacked against him.

And no matter how awesome the 22 or that new commie plane are relative to other aircraft, it's only a matter of time before counter-stealth technology catches up and their advantages are minimal again. Then, you have a fleet of horribly expensive aircraft (F-22's) that are no less visible or vulnerable than any 4th gen jet. New aircraft are going to get at least all the gadgets and aerodynamic, powerplant, performance, and stealth enhancements so in the end they'll be on equal footing again.

F-22 is good from the standpoint of being a testbed for new technology and aircraft design, but I think it's a bad choice overall to fill front line combat needs. It was designed as an air superiority aircraft and consequently it performs that job well. However, it is not going to make a good strike aircraft without a bunch more money sunk into it. Even then, I doubt it will do the job much better than the current 4th gen strike aircraft. Its single-mission design and excessive costs are extremely wasteful - part of the reason the USAF had to shrink their initial order. They could've spent all that money on making newer, better versions of the F-15 and F-16.

How much does a single F-22 cost? That's how much money the USAF/government/taxpayer's lose when one goes down. It's gonna happen - maybe not in combat, but there's gonna be an F-22 planted in the ground someday. No matter how good you make a jet or how well you train the pilot, they still come with ejection seats for a reason.

the f-22 is invisible, its rcs is the size of a small bird, its radar can fry aircraft systems from 250+NM away, it can reach altitudes of 80,000+' and it can carry up to 16 AIM-120C/D AMRAAMs +2 AIM-9X's. on top of that, its ttw of 2:1 allows it to climb vertical to 20,000'. To top it all off, it can literally turn on a dime with the use of its 25 degree thrust vectoring.

quote:

Originally posted by netflame5:
the f-22 is invisible, its rcs is the size of a small bird, its radar can fry aircraft systems from 250+NM away, it can reach altitudes of 80,000+' and it can carry up to 16 AIM-120C/D AMRAAMs +2 AIM-9X's. on top of that, its ttw of 2:1 allows it to climb vertical to 20,000'. To top it all off, it can literally turn on a dime with the use of its 25 degree thrust vectoring.

It may be practically invisible on radar, but, like the F-15 it is a big target in the WVR environment. And just because RCS is small doesn't mean you aren't still a blazing heat source in the sky either. IRST tech is going to improve too, and there's only so much any aircraft, even the F-22, can do against it.

As far as "frying aircraft systems from 250+nm," if you're talking about physically damaging components, I doubt that very much unless you're talking about its own systems. I don't think any airborne radar so far has that kind of capability. Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by that.

Carrying 16 AMRAAMs is all well and good, but that bird-size RCS is going bye-bye fast with all those externally mounted missiles (to my knowledge it can only carry 8 internally: 2 AIM-9s and 6 AMRAAMs).

In any event, I wasn't knocking the F-22's impressive performance, merely its enormous price tag. The relative performance increase in the air-to-ground mission over current strike-fighters is not cost-effective. It is more survivable than modern jets, but at actually putting bombs on target, I doubt there's much improvement. In the fighter realm, it's probably overkill for what we actually need it to be able to do.

Stealth technology is good, but it limits what you can do with an aircraft. If you wanted a really stealthy ground attack aircraft, it'd be big in order to house all the weapons internally - you'd end up with a heavy, bulky fighter. Likewise, if you want a stealthy fighter, you'd want it light-weight and powerful with minimal RCS. You'd end up with something like the F-22 with a small internal payload to aid in stealth and aerodynamic efficiency. A good multi-role stealth aircraft is going to be difficult to pull off.

quote:

Originally posted by netflame5:
the f-22 is invisible, its rcs is the size of a small bird, its radar can fry aircraft systems from 250+NM away, it can reach altitudes of 80,000+' and it can carry up to 16 AIM-120C/D AMRAAMs +2 AIM-9X's. on top of that, its ttw of 2:1 allows it to climb vertical to 20,000'. To top it all off, it can literally turn on a dime with the use of its 25 degree thrust vectoring.

F-22 is "invisible" only untill it launches a missile.
And it's not invisible to Russian new radars at all. I've seen on TV how the military managed to track ANY KIND of stealth planes...

yea, its called ladar, i know, we have it too... and anyways, conventional radar systems can only track it for the 3/4 of a second it takes to open the bay and eject the missile. as far as heat recognition of the aircraft goes, it is virtually heatless without its afterburners thanks to the good airflow of the engine and fuel flow around the engine that takes away most of the heat from the airframe and the engine itself. now, when I say fry systems, the F-22A is equipped with an awsome radar that can detect aircraft from 250+NM. This however is not the only use of its radar. The radar on the F-22A gives the F-22A an electronic attack capibility. The way it works is that the F-22A locks onto a target and then focuses the full power of the long wave radiation onto the enemy aircraft's radar thereby rendering it completely useless as it can no longer detect incoming radar signals or get a sucessful radar "bounce" off of an enemy aircraft. that plus its thermal jamming will make a very hard target indeed. Also, keep in mind that this radar focusing/jamming technology can be used against ground based radars such as enemy sam sites or EWR systems. It does however have some limitations as it will not work on any modern ships or an AWACS as the onboard computers are powerful enough to handle the onslaught of radation.

I don't know if the EA capibility works on other F-22A's, it would be funny if it did.

BTW.. U.S.A. Rocks!!!

please tell me how the ruskie government is even funding the SU-50 PAK-FA development anyways???

quote:

please tell me how the ruskie government is even funding the SU-50 PAK-FA development anyways???

Like your goverment - WITH MONEY. And don't tell me that Russia is a poor rural country with hungry population and bloody KGB dictator in power Cuz I will not continue diaglog

Russian Goverment is spending hundred billion Roubles these days on our military. Thanks to the oil price boom we've started rebuilding our country. ANd since 2000 Russia had the biggest economic boom in history that turned us from a buncrupt country to 7th economy in the world! HA...Russia is a phoenix bird. Always rising from the ashes!

BTW.. RUSSIA Rocks!!!

please tell me what "amerikanskaya" administration is doing to prevent your economic crisis

Good god... I am sick of russian elitists saying that all of the Su's are the best ever... Just stop. Please... Or should I remind you that Russia has only two Su-37's. One went down, and the other is grounded. And the Su-47 is only a test plane. And if you expect an Su to take an F-22A, explain to me, how they will even bounce it on radar to begin with? If you think that the Cobra maneuver makes the Su series better than the Raptor, you're wrong. Fancy maneuvers, titles, and names have nothing to do with who wins in a dog fight.

The final word to own you all, and end the argument.

Israeli aces are the best among the world. 30-1 kill ratio. Guess what they fly? AMERICAN F-15E Strike Eagles.

[/thread]

quote:

Originally posted by Grubilman:
Good god... I am sick of russian elitists saying that all of the Su's are the best ever... Just stop. Please... Or should I remind you that Russia has only two Su-37's. One went down, and the other is grounded. And the Su-47 is only a test plane. And if you expect an Su to take an F-22A, explain to me, how they will even bounce it on radar to begin with? If you think that the Cobra maneuver makes the Su series better than the Raptor, you're wrong. Fancy maneuvers, titles, and names have nothing to do with who wins in a dog fight.

The final word to own you all, and end the argument.

Israeli aces are the best among the world. 30-1 kill ratio. Guess what they fly? AMERICAN F-15E Strike Eagles.

[/thread]

Well I'm sick of americans always saying that their weapons are the best. WHo cares how many SU-37 or SU-47 are there? The fact is those planes could take down F-22.

What's your F-22 gonna do in a battle? WHAT?! Su-35BM (the newest Flanker protected by plasma-steath and a futher evolution os Su-37) Is invisible on radar thanks to plasma-stealth and is a lot more maneuverable. Not only it will defeat F-22 in close dogfight because of hes maneuverability but also because plams and new powerfull radar makes it invisible and gives it the ability to spot enemy fighter earlier!

And I don't care about israeli F-15. Sukhois and MG-90 didn't loe a SINGLE training dogfight. When things will come a real battle you'll see it for yourself!
RIght now the only place where F-22 jets are winning is Hollywood movies. Only there MiGs are shown as slow-flying buckets that can't even turn and glorious american pilots dance in the skies and shoot down the evil ruskies screaming "woooohooooooooo!"

pathetic

P.S. There will not be more than about 150 Raptors. Wthile RuAF is planing to get more than a thousand SU PAK-FAs and around 750 MiG PAk-FAs

quote:

Originally posted by SkyRaptor_RUS:

quote:

Originally posted by Grubilman:
Good god... I am sick of russian elitists saying that all of the Su's are the best ever... Just stop. Please... Or should I remind you that Russia has only two Su-37's. One went down, and the other is grounded. And the Su-47 is only a test plane. And if you expect an Su to take an F-22A, explain to me, how they will even bounce it on radar to begin with? If you think that the Cobra maneuver makes the Su series better than the Raptor, you're wrong. Fancy maneuvers, titles, and names have nothing to do with who wins in a dog fight.

The final word to own you all, and end the argument.

Israeli aces are the best among the world. 30-1 kill ratio. Guess what they fly? AMERICAN F-15E Strike Eagles.

[/thread]

Well I'm sick of americans always saying that their weapons are the best. WHo cares how many SU-37 or SU-47 are there? The fact is those planes could take down F-22.

What's your F-22 gonna do in a battle? WHAT?! Su-35BM (the newest Flanker protected by plasma-steath and a futher evolution os Su-37) Is invisible on radar thanks to plasma-stealth and is a lot more maneuverable. Not only it will defeat F-22 in close dogfight because of hes maneuverability but also because plams and new powerfull radar makes it invisible and gives it the ability to spot enemy fighter earlier!

And I don't care about israeli F-15. Sukhois and MG-90 didn't loe a SINGLE training dogfight. When things will come a real battle you'll see it for yourself!
RIght now the only place where F-22 jets are winning is Hollywood movies. Only there MiGs are shown as slow-flying buckets that can't even turn and glorious american pilots dance in the skies and shoot down the evil ruskies screaming "woooohooooooooo!"

pathetic

P.S. There will not be more than about 150 Raptors. Wthile RuAF is planing to get more than a thousand SU PAK-FAs and around 750 MiG PAk-FAs

With no money, and a broken economy. I'm sure they'll make plenty... There is a reason that there will only be so many F-22A's built. And as bad as our economy is getting, it's still a hell of a lot better than Russia's. I am not even a fan of the F-22... I just can't stand people like you, who hold everything against america, just because we are america. You have it fused in your head, that just because you don't like america, all of our technology sucks, the same as our pilots. Think of it this way. They never lost a TRAINING mission. Please, go lay in traffic, kid...

quote:

Originally posted by Grubilman:

quote:

Originally posted by SkyRaptor_RUS:

quote:

Originally posted by Grubilman:
Good god... I am sick of russian elitists saying that all of the Su's are the best ever... Just stop. Please... Or should I remind you that Russia has only two Su-37's. One went down, and the other is grounded. And the Su-47 is only a test plane. And if you expect an Su to take an F-22A, explain to me, how they will even bounce it on radar to begin with? If you think that the Cobra maneuver makes the Su series better than the Raptor, you're wrong. Fancy maneuvers, titles, and names have nothing to do with who wins in a dog fight.

The final word to own you all, and end the argument.

Israeli aces are the best among the world. 30-1 kill ratio. Guess what they fly? AMERICAN F-15E Strike Eagles.

[/thread]

Well I'm sick of americans always saying that their weapons are the best. WHo cares how many SU-37 or SU-47 are there? The fact is those planes could take down F-22.

What's your F-22 gonna do in a battle? WHAT?! Su-35BM (the newest Flanker protected by plasma-steath and a futher evolution os Su-37) Is invisible on radar thanks to plasma-stealth and is a lot more maneuverable. Not only it will defeat F-22 in close dogfight because of hes maneuverability but also because plams and new powerfull radar makes it invisible and gives it the ability to spot enemy fighter earlier!

And I don't care about israeli F-15. Sukhois and MG-90 didn't loe a SINGLE training dogfight. When things will come a real battle you'll see it for yourself!
RIght now the only place where F-22 jets are winning is Hollywood movies. Only there MiGs are shown as slow-flying buckets that can't even turn and glorious american pilots dance in the skies and shoot down the evil ruskies screaming "woooohooooooooo!"

pathetic

P.S. There will not be more than about 150 Raptors. Wthile RuAF is planing to get more than a thousand SU PAK-FAs and around 750 MiG PAk-FAs

With no money, and a broken economy. There is a reason that there will only be so many F-22A's built. And as bad as our economy is getting, it's still a hell of a lot better than Russia's. I am not even a fan of the F-22... I just can't stand people like you, who hold everything against america, just because we are america. You have it fused in your head, that just because you don't like america, all of our technology sucks, the same as our pilots. Think of it this way. They never lost a TRAINING mission. Please, go lay in traffic, kid...

I aint no kid to you! And for f*ck sake STOP THIS BULLS*IT about broken aconomy. Watch some TV god damnit. We have a lot of money right..It aint the 90s! Reality changed but you still think of Russia as a week country from the ninetees. And yes i know that ytour economy is stronger than ours..FOR NOW...you just wait
And who sais I hate americans? Show me where I said smth like that. I just hate when I hear things like "USA - FTW, RUSSIA - SUX"

quote:

Originally posted by SkyRaptor_RUS:
I aint no kid to you! And for f*ck sake STOP THIS BULLS*IT about broken aconomy. Watch some TV god damnit. We have a lot of money right..It aint the 90s! Reality changed but you still think of Russia as a week country from the ninetees. And yes i know that ytour economy is stronger than ours..FOR NOW...you just wait
And who sais I hate americans? Show me where I said smth like that. I just hate when I hear things like "USA - FTW, RUSSIA - SUX"

Russia isn't a weak country, but it doesn't mean that they have enough money to make that many planes. You're right, this isn't the 90's, so stop with the whole "US vs Russia" ****. It gets really old.

-ignored-

yea, no flaming forum posts guys, keep the anger down, and besides I know we can only have so many F-22A's in service. The fact is though, I have seen the russian airfields and the training sims you have. Its not impressive. I do not like cracks in my runways m8. anyways besides that. The SU-50 PAK-FA will cost a bunch of money. I doubt even the greatest economy could purchase 1000+ active service aircraft... its just not realistic. I am not dissing russia's economy, it is starting up again and thats good, the U.S. economy is not in a slump btw, our net profits are increasing every year and the only thing that is limiting our budget is the fact that stupid congressmen lobby for bills that are basically random acts of kindness that equal out to more than $700,000,000,000,000 the U.S. military currently has an annual defense budget of about $500,000,000,000 this is bad, this means that we only have $5 billion to use for fuel, research, space flight, repairs, components, new weapons, ammo. Stupid super spending congressmen. Spend less on meaningless projects please!

plus, lets face it Israeli pilots would murder both our airforce's

quote:

Originally posted by netflame:
plus, lets face it Israeli pilots would murder both our airforce's

That's right - Air Forces. Not Navy.

FLY NAVY!