Ok, please don't get too biased on this question, but i'm considering buying a joystick and maybe track ir.

But before i do, i'd like to know what the advantages are. It may sound like a stupid question, but i've always flown with the keyboard, and with keyboard my kill/death ratio in air to air combat is 1 to 1.5 so before you start flaming, i manage allright with keyboard sofar .

Why use a joystick ? Is it because you can make sharper turns ?
I know that for formation flying a keyboard is useless , but is it better for combat also ?

Again, it may be a dumb question to you, but i'd very much appreciate it if the answers would be objective .

SHould i buy a joystick ?

I can't beleive you'd even ask this... It's not about "bias". Flying on ANY sim with the keyboard is beyond ridiculous.

You have almost no fine control of any primary axis input.

You can't possibly press keys required to maintain a desired flight attitude, thrust level, manipulate targeting cursors and scan cones, change weapons & sensors, all while having to CONSTANTLY monitor instruments and the airspace around you.


A inexperienced noob with a configured stick -even a bad one with just a few programmed functions- and a rudimentary key command knowledge would SPLATTER a keyboard pilot. There's just no way to compete like that.

hmm i just looked it up . K/D ratio is actually 1.5 kills to 1 death on the 169th server. (not counting SAM's)

So that's not all that bad right ?

Well let me ask you in another way ...

How long does it take to get used to flying with a joystick, if you've been flying with a keyboard for quite some time ?

Is it really hard to get used to ?

quote:

Originally posted by Game__On:
hmm i just looked it up . K/D ratio is actually 1.5 kills to 1 death on the 169th server. (not counting SAM's)

So that's not all that bad right ?

Well let me ask you in another way ...

How long does it take to get used to flying with a joystick, if you've been flying with a keyboard for quite some time ?

Is it really hard to get used to ?

It's easier than a keyboard because the responses are natural and don't require extra thought that a keyboard usually needs
Some planes - especially air-to-ground - require pinpoint adjustments on an on-going basis.
The keyboard is not so bad if you're skilled and firing missiles but I think for guns vs. guns(adrenaline-rush), you need the natural responses that a joy-stick gives. If you're yo-yoing or other advanced flight maneourves, the joy-stick gives you an extra fine set of controls

And as this is a simulation, that's how real-life fighter pilots do it - for the simmer, an extra buzz

As for Track-IR, it gives the full real-deal for 3D combat. Especially in IL2(close-range knife-fighting) - no experience matched it

Track IR would DEFINTATELY be handy, at least of that i am sure. Not having to use the mouse to look around frees up my right hand.

As for the keys, i don't ever actually look down on the keyboard.
I'm sure a flight-stick is better if you are not used to either keyboard or stick, but i just wonder if it would have any advantages for me personally.

Given that i've been using the keybaord for this long, and that the last time i've even used a joystick was in the commodore amiga time :d , i don't think i can adapt to it fast enough for my liking.

On the other hand, purely for flying, it would be nice i guess.

One more question, these Hotas sticks, it's not like they spring back to center after you let it go i assume ?

What i mean is, if you push it forward and let go, it stays there, right ?

quote:

Originally posted by Game__On:
Given that i've been using the keybaord for this long, and that the last time i've even used a joystick was in the commodore amiga time :d , i don't think i can adapt to it fast enough for my liking.

On the other hand, purely for flying, it would be nice i guess.

For a simple joy-stick, it's a small enough investment for the hours that you'll use it - I've had a simple MS Sidewinder for 10 years with the basics - Hat-switch, 4 buttons on top(shooting, target-selecting and de-selecting, mode-switch), and twisty-handle.
That might be an intermediate step to a full HOTAS setup - which can be a different type of investment. But many can't go back to a simpler joy-stick after having it all with the HOTAS - they are THAT GOOD

ALL flightsticks that I know of return to center-- unless the stick itself has been flying across the room.

A real stick would not stay there either. Think about it- it takes hydraulic pressure to overcome the massive aerodynamic airflow, and force the control surface to bite into it. When the hydraulic force is relaxed, the surface will immediately spring back, conforming to the airflow.

hmm i see. That would definately take getting used to. (spring back joystick thing)

As for getting a cheap stick to try it out first ... well that may be a plan.

I think i'll buy the cheapest most crappy stick with 1 button, just to see how i like the feel of flying with a stick.

This must sound ridiculous to most of you, but i've been playing flight sims with keyboard since 20 years ago. (on and off, but still...)
So to me it is natural, just as UN-natural as it would be to most of you .

Watching video's though makes me want to try a joystick out. Mainly because the faster manouvring you can do with the stick. With they keyboard the flap thingies only move like a third of the full range.

Only thing i'm terrified of is getting used to the buttons for everything BESIDES flying

ok thanks all

*edit : I thought these Hotas stick are like 200 euro's ?
First one i click on is only 44 euro's ? Is this not 'the real' thing maybe ?
Is it more crappy then the 'f-16' hotas ?

http://www.bol.com/nl/p/games/...=ADVNLVRG00201200099

Hotas "cougar" : http://www.pixmania.be/be/nl/8...otas-cougar-usb.html

What's the difference besides number of buttons.
Build quality ?

edit#2, well i ordered the cheapest 13 euro piece of crap out there just to try it out . See if i don't break it in half out of frustration in the first 10 minutes of trying it out.

Good starter is the X52. Quality is inconsistent, but you should get at least a year or two out of it. Plenty of time to figure out how you want to set it up, and determine if you want to take the hobby seriously. etc. I had 3 X45's. None of them lasted 2 years, but certainly a good value.

Best quality hands down-- CH Products. I use a complete set of this equipment. Average about $90-100 a piece. Quite simply the best affordable equipment you can buy. The software is NOT friendly to new users, but it's capabilities are astounding. Service & support are second to NO ONE. When you decide to take this hobby to the next level- you should get these.

Read this: http://www.freewebs.com/konkussion/downloadsinc.htm (scroll down about 1/2 way) You can also view my current profile.

http://www.freewebs.com/konkussion/LOMAC_01.JPG

http://www.freewebs.com/konkussion/LOMAC_02.JPG

http://www.freewebs.com/konkussion/LOMAC_03.JPG


Cougar HOTAS- Debate of CH vs. Cougar is both lengthy and mind-numbing..

Good: Metal-like stick (it is NOT steel.)

Foxy software is good- as the engineer for CH wrote it- but not the suite that Control Manager is.

Has rotaries.. only BIG gripe I have about CH.


BAD: terrible support- pretty much community based.

cost- better check. I have not looked into this for a long time, but I found it quite expensive ($289 no rudders)

To really get the most from it- outrageously expensive mods are needed..

Reliability is OK, as in probably better than Saitek. Have read both glowing and terrible reports.

awesome thanks :-)

As you said the software of the CH is not user friendly, and as i'm a complete flight-stick noob, i will most likely try out the Hotas first . The configuring scares me a bit. MOSTLY because i'm ridiculously finicky about setting setting things up to my liking.
I can spend half an hour just setting up mouse sensitivity in other games

I'm very curious to find out how the actual flying will be compared to keyboard. I guess i'll find out when my 13 euro flight-dildo gets here.



Thanks again

Good.

FYI: "H.O.T.A.S." is not a brand, it describes the equipment. Hands On Throttle And Stick. Meaning most of the primary buttons you need for the plane's mission are on the controls and at your fingertips, so you do not need to feel around the "cockpit" (keyboard) for basic functions..

Game on, put it this way..if either my joystick (CH) or trackIR broke, I would not be able to fly until I got them fixed or bought a new one.

YES IT'S THAT IMPORTANT!

I'm most definately getting track-ir .
I've been annoyed with looking with the mouse since as long as i can remember with this game.
Not to mention when you are about to lock a target and you accidently flick your mouse making you look at your crotch instead of the radar screen .

Not to mention close combat -ARGGHH- annoying to say the least.

However the same can be said for throtteling with keyboard. Almost as annoying when you have to do it fast. TAP TAP TAP TAP ... It sucks, and is basically retarded.

About a joystick i stil have my reservations though, even considering the throtteling.

As i said i ordered one just to try out flying for a bit ... It's a 13 euro 'sweex' piece of sh^t, with believe it or not, has force feedback. (or maybe they called it 'force vibration', which i'm sure is something totally different and x10 crappy :lol

It has a dead zone of about a mile (for real, there's more deadzone then response zone) , and it weighs about an ounce so you have to hold the base with one hand, and it think i already broke it after 10 minutes of trying it out.



My gripes about flying with joystick :

It's very hard to stay on a steady climb, or even level out your plane !
I point nose up, and when i let go the nose dives immediately.

And vice versa.
I'm guessing the enormous deadzone does not help this cause either.
Konkussion already answered this question somewhat, but i did not expect it to be this much.
It seems that i have to fight just to get the plane to go down or up.
The spring load in this thing is also high, making the plane feel very unresponsive when climbing or descending.

Now for the questions :

How is the springload on better joysticks ?
Deadzone ? I'm allergic to it.
Button mapping ? Just load up a profile and go ?

I'm sure the experience would be much better with a real setup, weird thing is though, i must admit, that after 10 minutes of flying going back to keyboard felt a bit crappier already.

Also firing weapons with triggers is awesome .

It's hard to find any decent video's of these CH and Saitek sticks.
With that i mean video's that instead of explaining how many buttons it has, but instead try to explain how the flying feels, or how precise it is ... I'll be searching though and i'm sure i'll find some.

In the meantime if someone could answer the 3 questions above for me, i'd be much obliged. :-)

I doubt that there is a problem with the stick. Aircraft require constant trimming of the control surfaces to maintain level flight, or any flight, really. You should map trim commands to the stick. Look at the top right corner-it points out how I have mine mapped.

http://www.freewebs.com/konkussion/LOMAC_01.JPG

Map yours like this: Simply program the commands for UP(.) DOWN(; ) LEFT(,) RIGHT(/) to the Hat switch using the stick's software.

This will set up your targeting cursor. Then when you combine the Hat with "CTRL" on your keyboard- it will perform a TRIM function. Remember that the trim control behaves like the stick. Pull back-the nose goes UP. Sometimes HATS are positioned so your pressing it "downward" so to speak, but this is accurate. "DOWN" on the HAT should also make the nose go up, and vice-versa. EDIT: If I recall- you may have to reverse the LOMAC key assignments for trim UP/ down to make this work correctly.. just try it like it is default and see. If your plane climbs with HAT UP and noses down with HAT down- it's backwards.

Combine it with "SHIFT" on the keyboard- and you have A2A radar scan cone Slew control. BOTH of these are critical to have.

See what I'm talking about? Now you have a quicker and simpler way to keep the attitude you need, to focus your radar on the patch of sky you want, find and lock up the bandit, and fox him. Once you have this set up- return your dead zones to very small- you shouldn't need a big one on any axis. Rudders sometimes could use a smoother input, like for groundsteering. You don't want that to be too touchy.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: konkussion,

This mapping buttons is done with the software that comes with the stick ?

Lomac only recognizes a few buttons on this toy flight stick i have currently .

Yes. You program the AXIS with the LOMAC menus, and the BUTTONS with the stick software.

ALthough if you don't have any stick software, you certainly could do it within LOMAC.. maybe..

You'd have to try it and see.

Input menus of LOMAC:
Device- your stick
Switch set to buttons
Then do the the same things you did to map out the throttle, rudders, etc.. I guess it should work about the same to map out buttons.

Admittedly I have never done it- I always used the profiling software with my Sticks..