HatateAce, LW_Icarp:

I think most people agree that what the White House did was a mistake - I've said so right from the beginning. But I'm talking about what they did, not what Fox supporters are claiming they were trying to do. There has been no evidence at all put forward by you or anyone else that I am aware of that backs up claims that the Obama administration was trying to 'shut down' or 'silence' Fox. This seems to be entirely in the fertile imagination of the right, who seem incapable of looking at anything without seeing a hidden conspiracy. If you have any evidence to back up these claims, show it to us, otherwise accept that the White House backed down, Fox won, and it is over.

None of this alters the fact that many people regard Fox as nothing more than a propaganda outfit for the right, rather than serious journalists, and perhaps actually deserve to be treated as such. There is no reason to censor them, but making out they are a serious source of news does no credit to anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by AndyJWest:
HatateAce, LW_Icarp:

I think most people agree that what the White House did was a mistake - I've said so right from the beginning. But I'm talking about what they did, not what Fox supporters are claiming they were trying to do. There has been no evidence at all put forward by you or anyone else that I am aware of that backs up claims that the Obama administration was trying to 'shut down' or 'silence' Fox. This seems to be entirely in the fertile imagination of the right, who seem incapable of looking at anything without seeing a hidden conspiracy. If you have any evidence to back up these claims, show it to us, otherwise accept that the White House backed down, Fox won, and it is over.

None of this alters the fact that many people regard Fox as nothing more than a propaganda outfit for the right, rather than serious journalists, and perhaps actually deserve to be treated as such. There is no reason to censor them, but making out they are a serious source of news does no credit to anyone.

Gee, Andy. Why do you think it was a MISTAKE on the part of the administration? Do you see it a mistake because the whole notion was a bit unseemly? Or because they failed in their ultimate goal?

I just love it when you attempt to excuse the administration on the grounds that they didn't "do" anything, when the only reason why they failed to "do" anything was because the rest of the national media (who persist in the belief that FOX is indeed one of them) threatened a boycott of the White House press pool if FOX were barred from it, forcing the White House to back off.

Your argument is the equivalent of saying that the fellow who started hitting you the club really didn't "do" anything because he stopped when a crowd gathered.

Have you entertained yourself with any clips of MSNBC's Keith Olberman yet BTW?

quote:

Originally posted by AndyJWest:
None of this alters the fact that many people regard Fox as nothing more than a propaganda outfit for the right, rather than serious journalists, and perhaps actually deserve to be treated as such. There is no reason to censor them, but making out they are a serious source of news does no credit to anyone.

And also remember that is the way some feel for MSNBC. Its nothing more then a propagamda tool for the left. There are two sides involved here. But the left seems to want to ignore the fact that the right can and will make there own choices and decissions. Last night I decided to check out both MSNBC and Fox. I found myself appaled by MSNBCs coverage and thought them nothing more then the Whitehouses puppets. Now when a Republican gets in office again that will switch. But I still wont watch either after last night.

Blutarski writes:

quote:

Gee, Andy. Why do you think it was a MISTAKE on the part of the administration? Do you see it a mistake because the whole notion was a bit unseemly? Or because they failed in their ultimate goal?

I just love it when you attempt to excuse the administration on the grounds that they didn't "do" anything, when the only reason why they failed to "do" anything was because the rest of the national media (who persist in the belief that FOX is indeed one of them) threatened a boycott of the White House press pool if FOX were barred from it, forcing the White House to back off.

Your argument is the equivalent of saying that the fellow who started hitting you the club really didn't "do" anything because he stopped when a crowd gathered.

Have you entertained yourself with any clips of MSNBC's Keith Olberman yet BTW?

Blutarski, how the heck do you know what the administrations 'ultimate goal' was? You don't. You believe they were trying to shut Fox up, or something like that. You have no evidence to support this. Yes, they tried to exclude Fox from White House press briefings because they didn't consider them a legitimate news channel. Should they have done this? Maybe not, I'm sure there are better ways to deal with a situation like this, but nothing they did was illegal, unconstitutional, or even particularly surprising as far as I can see. While Fox continues to broadcast propaganda dressed up as 'news', I see no reason why thw White House should pretend it isn't happening, and treat them like responsible broadcasters.

This argument is going round in circles because you expect people to accept your dubious premises about White House intentions. I don't. If you can't offer evidence, don't bother to repeat it.

And by the way, I am no White House apologist, as I'm sure you are aware: I simply consider that on this occasion, the allegations about them trying to control the media are false.

Personally I don't Like what AndyJWest is saying, and I don't think AndyJWest is a credible poster on these forums and I've gone to other forum members and told you how I feel. and the rest of you should not imitate him or I'll tell others the same thing about you.

Better yet I think we should ban him from being here, and asking his questions. after all he'll just say mean things about us anyways. and I cant handle the pressure of answering his tough and obviously left leaning questions. I'm not advocating we take his computer away so he cant post anywhere, I mean he'll still be able to say all those bad things about us on the AndyJWest forum, he'll just need to get his information from other sources not first hand.

quote:

Originally posted by AndyJWest:
I am no White House apologist

..... Yes, you are.

quote:

Originally posted by Blutarski2004:

quote:

Originally posted by AndyJWest:
I am no White House apologist

..... Yes, you are.

..... No, I'm not.

Or would you like a sensible debate?

BSS_CUDA: nice try, but Fox wasn't being excluded from any 'forums', just the 'PMs' between the White House and the media - Press conferences are always by invitation only, try to get into one yourself and you'll find out.

Actually, if you are a critic of a government, their press conferences are unlikely to be much use for finding out anything about them that they don't want you to know. If Fox can't cope without being spoonfed by the White House, it can't be much use anyway.

I think Cuda nailed it sqwuare on the head with his post. Its the same exact thing the whitehouse was trying to do to Fox.

The takeaway is that FOX and its competing news outlets stood together against the Whinehouse and fought for what is right. Unlike M.O., I've always had pride in my country, but I had a bit extra that day.

The left leaning CNN, MSNBC, et al. are no more news outlets than FOX, and if you want a really twisted view, check out Keith Olby and Rachel Madcow.

quote:

Originally posted by AndyJWest:

quote:

Originally posted by Blutarski2004:

quote:

Originally posted by AndyJWest:
I am no White House apologist

..... Yes, you are.

..... No, I'm not.

Or would you like a sensible debate?

BSS_CUDA: nice try, but Fox wasn't being excluded from any 'forums', just the 'PMs' between the White House and the media - Press conferences are always by invitation only, try to get into one yourself and you'll find out.

Actually, if you are a critic of a government, their press conferences are unlikely to be much use for finding out anything about them that they don't want you to know. If Fox can't cope without being spoonfed by the White House, it can't be much use anyway.

..... PUHLEEZE, Andy. White House press conference are and have been since time immemorial open to THE NATIONAL PRESS. You and I might not be permitted in because we have NO PRESS CREDENTIALS.

You completely ignore the FACT that Fox has been a part of the White House press corps since their advent, including Clinton's tenure in office.

You completely ignore the fact that ALL THE OTHER MEDIA MEMBERS of the White House press corps stood in support of Fox as a legitimate member of their group. Why do you think they threatened a press boycott if Fox were excluded, Andy???

Finally , you ignore the fact that, WHEN IT SUITS THEIR PARTICULAR PURPOSES, like last night, the 0bama administration suddenly seems perfectly willing to go to Fox news network when they wanted national air time to argue their case regarding yesterday's election results.

The behavior of the White House is utterly inexplicable on any other basis than as an attempt to strong-arm and intimidate a prominent media outlet that has dared to air criticisms of the administration. I know you ardently refuse to see it as such. That's fine. But your attempt to articulate some alternate explanation for the behavior of the White House simply does not hold water.

I think the actions by the whitehouse in this matter were a mistake, but I do not believe they were an intentional attempt to hush up criticism. I think the people involved hold the same view as Andy and others (including me to a certain extent) about FOX's status as genuine news service and the mistake they made was as "people" they failed to look outside their own viewpoint before acting as "The Whitehouse" and took an inappropriate action. Still wrong, they still screwed up, but I think it's being blown out of proportion and should be criticized as a lapse in personal judgment, not as a coordinated attempt of an administration to silence opposition. The "silencing opponents" stuff is tinfoil hat territory guys.

MSNBC is so liberal that they give a former GOP congressman a 3 hour show every morning.

quote:

Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
I think the actions by the whitehouse in this matter were a mistake, but I do not believe they were an intentional attempt to hush up criticism. I think the people involved hold the same view as Andy and others (including me to a certain extent) about FOX's status as genuine news service and the mistake they made was as "people" they failed to look outside their own viewpoint before acting as "The Whitehouse" and took an inappropriate action. Still wrong, they still screwed up, but I think it's being blown out of proportion and should be criticized as a lapse in personal judgment, not as a coordinated attempt of an administration to silence opposition. The "silencing opponents" stuff is tinfoil hat territory guys.

..... With all due respect, Urufu, you're circling all around the central question here. What was the motivation behind the act in the first place? This was not an accident and it was not an off-the-cuff snit which accidentally spilled into the open. It was a coordinated campaign on the part of the White House to publicly attack and discredit Fox in order to lay a groundwork for freezing them out of the arena of national political coverage. How can you categorize the steps that the White House undertook as "unintentional"?

Let's call a spade a spade here.

Blutarski writes:

quote:

..... With all due respect, Urufu, you're circling all around the central question here. What was the motivation behind the act in the first place? This was not an accident and it was not an off-the-cuff snit which accidentally spilled into the open. It was a coordinated campaign on the part of the White House to publicly attack and discredit Fox in order to lay a groundwork for freezing them out of the arena of national political coverage. How can you categorize the steps that the White House undertook as "unintentional"?

And you have proof that this was part of 'a coordinated campaign', Blutarski? I've seen none whatsoever so far.

As I have said, if you're a liberal or lefty in general and don't like FOX, don't watch it!! Why lefties think the media should consist entirely of left-winged propaganda mills and not allow the other side a chance is beyond me. Besides, more people in the USA watch Fox than any other news outlet. So give 'em some space and watch MSLSD is you don't like them.