quote:

Originally posted by csThor:

quote:

Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Theres nothing wrong with "worshipping heroes".
Especialy not when you grow up in an enviourment that basicaly denies all access to national pride.
The overcompensation we see 's nothing measured against the national habits of others in the world.

Allow me to disagree. Worshipping heroes is essentially like salivating at some hot chick in the latest Playboy. The pictures and the text makes her look like a goddess, but do you really know the woman, the person behind the pretty face? No, you don't.
All that hero cult of the Third Reich was essentially a measure to cloud the people's eyes to the realities of war and how ugly it is. How many fighter pilots didn't survive their first mission? I guess nobody knows. But men like Mölders, Galland, Wick, Hartmann or Rall are known to everyone (back then and those who are interested in aviation history today). But do we know the men or are we just remembering the number of their claims? Do "the worshippers" know that Galland was vain and always wanted to be in the center of attention? Do they know that Hartmann had some very serious personality issues early on (extreme arrogance) and became an alcoholic later on (which lead to his early demise)?

In my mind that "cult of hero worship" is just as bad as Guido Knopp's "100 new ways of making germans uncomfortable of their history" - both keep half of the story to themselves. In my mind those who have a real interest in history are beyond hero worshipping. Heroes are fakes, empty shells of people to deflect unwanted and uncomfortable facts. I have no use for heroes.

Wow, that's cold logic, and I find myself forced to agree with it. There's no heroes, only people with there own faults and strengths.

But humans are good at deluding themselves, and I think most of us need heroes of some sort to make life more colourful and interesting. Of course, in the minds of most of the public of most nations, heroes are now mostly sportsmen.

quote:

Originally posted by csThor:

quote:

Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Theres nothing wrong with "worshipping heroes".
Especialy not when you grow up in an enviourment that basicaly denies all access to national pride.
The overcompensation we see 's nothing measured against the national habits of others in the world.

Allow me to disagree. Worshipping heroes is essentially like salivating at some hot chick in the latest Playboy. The pictures and the text makes her look like a goddess, but do you really know the woman, the person behind the pretty face? No, you don't.
All that hero cult of the Third Reich was essentially a measure to cloud the people's eyes to the realities of war and how ugly it is. How many fighter pilots didn't survive their first mission? I guess nobody knows. But men like Mölders, Galland, Wick, Hartmann or Rall are known to everyone (back then and those who are interested in aviation history today). But do we know the men or are we just remembering the number of their claims? Do "the worshippers" know that Galland was vain and always wanted to be in the center of attention? Do they know that Hartmann had some very serious personality issues early on (extreme arrogance) and became an alcoholic later on (which lead to his early demise)?

In my mind that "cult of hero worship" is just as bad as Guido Knopp's "100 new ways of making germans uncomfortable of their history" - both keep half of the story to themselves. In my mind those who have a real interest in history are beyond hero worshipping. Heroes are fakes, empty shells of people to deflect unwanted and uncomfortable facts. I have no use for heroes.

I disagree with some of what you say, or atleast that you say hero worship is bad. Heroes, however made up some of their story is, give us something to look up to, something to aim for.

Wasn't it Edison who had a personal ambition to rival DaVinci? without this hero worship and intense desire to rival his hero's achievements, he most likely would not have had the ambition to create all the inventions he did. Sure if hero worship is perverted like how the Nazis perverted it, it is bad, but one cannot say all hero worship is bad.

Some people do remarkable things---in the best of all worlds they are lauded, and they should be lauded. They are examples to us to try to attempt to defeat the inner Schweinhund, as vR would say, and exceed ourselves.

quote:

Originally posted by csThor:

quote:

Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Theres nothing wrong with "worshipping heroes".
Especialy not when you grow up in an enviourment that basicaly denies all access to national pride.
The overcompensation we see 's nothing measured wagainst the national habits of others in the world.

Allow me to disagree. Worshipping heroes is essentially like salivating at some hot chick in the latest Playboy. The pictures and the text makes her look like a goddess, but do you really know the woman, the person behind the pretty face? No, you don't.
All that hero cult of the Third Reich was essentially a measure to cloud the people's eyes to the realities of war and how ugly it is. How many fighter pilots didn't survive their first mission? I guess nobody knows. But men like Mölders, Galland, Wick, Hartmann or Rall are known to everyone (back then and those who are interested in aviation history today). But do we know the men or are we just remembering the number of their claims? Do "the worshippers" know that Galland was vain and always wanted to be in the center of attention? Do they know that Hartmann had some very serious personality issues early on (extreme arrogance) and became an alcoholic later on (which lead to his early demise)?

In my mind that "cult of hero worship" is just as bad as Guido Knopp's "100 new ways of making germans uncomfortable of their history" - both keep half of the story to themselves. In my mind those who have a real interest in history are beyond hero worshipping. Heroes are fakes, empty shells of people to deflect unwanted and uncomfortable facts. I have no use for heroes.

The problem you have is that you have your very own definition of what a hero is.
It's inherit to the german spirit nowadays - greatness is something to put down immidiatly.

When I speak of heroes, I speak of individuals who have, in one way or another, made an example to look up to / admire / follow.

Bei Vorbildern ist es unwichtig, ob es sich dabei um einen großen toten Dichter, um Mahatma Gandhi oder um Onkel Fritz aus Braunschweig handelt, wenn es nur ein Mensch ist, der im gegebenen Augenblick ohne Wimpernzucken gesagt oder getan hat, wovor wir zögern.
Erich Kästner

I repeat myself : It is vital for individuals to have an example to hold on to.
And as the quote above says, it doesn't really matter who we look up to.
It is only natural that people tend to admire men like Galland or Hartmann when a coincedental
passion for WW2's flying is added to the equation.

Blind admiration is always dangerous - that's no problem inherit to long gone "heroes".

On the other hand, when I listen to the way you talk about the negative traits of these men I am
- no offense ment - almost disgusted.
Who are we - or in that case you - to judge?
They were individuals and it simply does not matter if they were not perfect.

Individuals are never perfect - even the ultimate individual, ( in a wagnerian/ schopenhaurian sense ) Siegfried, was incredibly naive and irascible.

What matters is the good trait we would love to have - that's what makes a hero and therefor heroes are extremly subjective.

To paraphrase: I don't give a damn how many allied pilots fell victim to Galland or Hartmann.
But I do care about examples of soldiers who
have shown great dedication and skill.

Regardless of arrogance (and there are very few military pilots who are not arrogant---it goes with the turf), Hartmann was a remarkable flier. Can you imagine the endurance of the man to keep performing at the level he attained for years? Furthermore, he resisted the sadists in the camps after the war. There is more to a person than their vices. I doubt if he was extremely obnoxious or he would not have been so well liked by so many of his colleagues. The alcohol matter is a cheap shot.

quote:

Originally posted by HuninMunin:

quote:

Originally posted by csThor:

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Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
I drew my opinions from the Germans that I have met from several visits to Germany.

These guys are IL2 fans so maybe their views are not representative of all the German people.


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Quite frankly the "great majority" of my fellow german countrymen (and -women) doesn't deal with history on a regular basis. That's not surprising, though, and probably applies to all nations. My time with the Il-2 community has shown me two types of Il-2 fans - those who suffer a bit from the "hero-worship-cult" propagated by a lot of older aviation history books and those who're already past that, who have a deeper understanding and interest in history itself.

Theres nothing wrong with "worshipping heroes".
Especialy not when you grow up in an enviourment that basicaly denies all access to national pride.
The overcompensation we see 's nothing measured against the national habits of others in the world.

Interesting Post Hunin

Heroes should be respected. I don't agree with the term 'worshipped' as it's almost religious.

If you as a German collected books and models about WW2, how would your family and friends regard you?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Heh heh. It was hard being a "militarist" in 1960s/1970s USA. My interest in warships, warplanes, tanks, military history, and naval history---in fact, history period, was considered perverse bordering on perverted. Now, if my interest had been the history of European labor movements, I would have been an icon! In fact, I switched to literature because there was more action....

quote:

Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:

quote:

Originally posted by HuninMunin:

quote:

Originally posted by csThor:

quote:

Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
I drew my opinions from the Germans that I have met from several visits to Germany.

These guys are IL2 fans so maybe their views are not representative of all the German people.


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Quite frankly the "great majority" of my fellow german countrymen (and -women) doesn't deal with history on a regular basis. That's not surprising, though, and probably applies to all nations. My time with the Il-2 community has shown me two types of Il-2 fans - those who suffer a bit from the "hero-worship-cult" propagated by a lot of older aviation history books and those who're already past that, who have a deeper understanding and interest in history itself.

Theres nothing wrong with "worshipping heroes".
Especialy not when you grow up in an enviourment that basicaly denies all access to national pride.
The overcompensation we see 's nothing measured against the national habits of others in the world.

Interesting Post Hunin

Heroes should be respected. I don't agree with the term 'worshipped' as it's almost religious.

If you as a German collected books and models about WW2, how would your family and friends regard you?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

It's not really an issue at all.
Sometimes a Swastika on a plane would take a sentence of explanation, but nothing serious.

It's not that there is open resentment towards the past - quite the opposite - it is just a sensible subject at times.

If anything can be said for sure ( because I obviously am not in the position to make a generel statement about Germany's mental furniture ) then it would be that Germans tend to pay a lot of attention to how the past is dealt with.
The discussion is always about perspective and it's various nuances.

Hunin - You lump me in with that "we gotta be ashamed of our past for as long as the sun burns" people making historical docs here in Germany and couldn't be farther off the mark.

All I am interested in is an accurate historiography, not some moralin-acidic half-truth or brightly coloured distortion. It may sound cold and flat but to me these people are past, part of history. As a result I study them and their exploits, but I'm trying to remain unemotional about it (emotions and history are a volatile mix) and I do try to see them as part of their time and environment. The result of all of this is my suspicion of the term 'hero', because to me it's just a media creation and doesn't describe the real person.

quote:

Originally posted by csThor:
Hunin - You lump me in with that "we gotta be ashamed of our past for as long as the sun burns" people making historical docs here in Germany and couldn't be farther off the mark.

All I am interested in is an accurate historiography, not some moralin-acidic half-truth or brightly coloured distortion. It may sound cold and flat but to me these people are past, part of history. As a result I study them and their exploits, but I'm trying to remain unemotional about it (emotions and history are a volatile mix) and I do try to see them as part of their time and environment. The result of all of this is my suspicion of the term 'hero', because to me it's just a media creation and doesn't describe the real person.

so... how is Hartmann's alcoholism have to do with his prominent role in history? you said you are interested in historiography, but I dont see how remembering everyones' vices is historiography. Sure Churchill had a personal competition against Bismarck trying to see if he could drink more, but that isn't why he is remembered, and hardly important. When you die, do you want people 200 years from now to remember you for being right handed?

Hartmann developed the affinity to alcohol when he served with JG 52 on the Eastern Front. It's just a facet of his service, the stuff that got left out of the "Hurray-Hurray" book "Blonde Knight of Germany". It's a sign for the enormous strain he was under and it never made its way into literature - I got that one from a former mechanic of JG 52 whom I met during an annual meeting of Traditionsgemeinschaft JG 52. But it's also part of history, the part that shows what war makes of young men.

As I said before- history is more to me than just a list of kill claims and a bunch of shiny medals.

Maybe the German translation left out the drinking? Whether it was the 'Blond Knight' book or another but it was mentioned that Hartmann got some medal from Hitler while totally 'in the bag'.

That was the result of an impromtu celebration of their new awards - being more than a little merry there has a reason most people can relate to. Alcoholism is a totally different level. But Hartmann was just an example of how "heroes" are being made by leaving out darker facets of their personality, of their way of life.
I have two other biographies of JG 52 aces and both mention alcohol more often than I had ever thought possible. It really made me wonder just what the war really did to these young men and boys. If you need to drink yourself into stupor just to be able to sleep at night it's kinda worrying, don't you think? *shrugs*

quote:

Originally posted by csThor:
Hartmann developed the affinity to alcohol when he served with JG 52 on the Eastern Front. It's just a facet of his service, the stuff that got left out of the "Hurray-Hurray" book "Blonde Knight of Germany". It's a sign for the enormous strain he was under and it never made its way into literature - I got that one from a former mechanic of JG 52 whom I met during an annual meeting of Traditionsgemeinschaft JG 52. But it's also part of history, the part that shows what war makes of young men.

As I said before- history is more to me than just a list of kill claims and a bunch of shiny medals.

so you trust a mechanic and believe everything he says? It's pretty obvious that Mannock did not have 73 kills as his squadron mate had started circulating after the war. Not saying the mechanic couldnt be honest, but what if he had a personal grudge against Hartmann? or was a teetotaler who frowned on any drinking whatsoever, so that the occasional bingedrinking by hartmann looked to him like alcoholism.

Depends what you read and trust on Mannock (and others). I've read that he may well have surpassed the Baron's tally, that he gave lots of his kills away to give confidence to rookies.

Then again, I've read the opposite.

Must say I have a lot of time for csThor's approach.