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Forums 1C:Maddox Games IL2 Off Topic A Timely Antidote to a Soothing Modern Fantasy of von Richthofen|
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Thanks... I try.  |
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theres no money in high brow
moronic majority FTW . This message has been edited. Last edited by: Badsight-,  |
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I believe I said that on Page 1  why do we keep rehashing this ****?
dont really think they are too exaggerated, although that was just a trailer. Remember that the Red Baron was shot down in a swarm fight like that. But then again, I wasn't there for the real thing, so I dont know for sure, just what I've seen previously. ---------------- Life's too short to date ugly chicks |
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Spew!!!!! Dagnabit... now I have to clean the screen and get a NEW keyboard. L-man, the first two sentences of this diatribe are priceless. This is why I keep coming back. Wow, tell us how you REALLY feel. Da Worfster  |
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Quite frankly I think it's the opposite. For most germans a hero is an imaginary figure, a media creation which has nothing to do with the real person. WW2 didn't cloud "our" minds on the issue, it made us see the light. Heroes aren't real people. They get turned into some by the media and - in times of war - your own military to cloud what war is really about: blood, pain, death and human tragedy. You only need heroes if you want to keep the truth from the majority of the people. Regarding WW1 vs WW2: Most people here lump theser two wars together, stir a bit and pour the soggy mass down the nearest drain. WW2 resulted from WW1 and the inability of the old elites to understand how much time had changed - I'm speculating here wildly but I think it's entirely possible that modern germans see the Nazis as a much darker and much more violent continuation of Imperial Germany (see Wilhelm's "Hun Speech" before the operations against the Chinese Boxers, see the treatment of the revolting Hereros in South-West Africa, ...) at least on a sub-conscious level. And to most this even far more distant than WW2 (most people have/had grandparents or parents who lived through that one). Richthofen with his bright-red Triplane is more like an individual splotch of colour in a dull and depressing time. And nothing more.  |
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Great post with some brilliant observations.  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I seen another world. Sometimes I think it was just my imagination." - Private Witt “I once called her up to tell her I'd had 200 trade unionists shot dead and thrown into the sea. "Gusty, dear", she said, "give me the resources you have and I'd create a new island of dead leftists in the South Pacific by lunchtime tomorrow." Damn, that's cold!” - Augusto Pinochet on Margaret Thatcher |
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I drew my opinions from the Germans that I have met from several visits to Germany. These guys are IL2 fans so maybe their views are not representative of all the German people. Best Regards, MB_Avro. |
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Glad you dug it, Worfmeister. Sorry about the outlay for new equipment!  |
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Quite frankly the "great majority" of my fellow german countrymen (and -women) doesn't deal with history on a regular basis. That's not surprising, though, and probably applies to all nations. My time with the Il-2 community has shown me two types of Il-2 fans - those who suffer a bit from the "hero-worship-cult" propagated by a lot of older aviation history books and those who're already past that, who have a deeper understanding and interest in history itself. |
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Regarding Germans attitude to Germany and the war:
A friend of mine (whose name I shall not divulge out of respect for her wishes) is from Germany. She is a Doctor in linguistics, and I suppose a fairly standard liberal academic. Se has what I can’t describe as anything other than a “regal bearing” and a hint of upper class air to her. Her surname struck another friend of mine as being very close to that of a rare name of a German 2nd World War nobility “Panzer General”. He’s an avid ASL-player, and knows quite a bit of war history. Her surname being the same as the general, only lacking the “von” in front, he asked her if she would happened to be related to said general. Apparently he struck a nerve, she went white as a sheet. In the end it turned out he was her great uncle, and she was dead struck with shame anyone knew. This von XXX was generally a good guy. He never engaged in any genocides or known war crimes. Guderian credited him with being an accomplished panzer-commander. Yet to be related to him was a great embarrassment to her. To me, it spoke volumes about Germany’s troubled relation to her past. |
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That is sad, but she probably went through hell as a child due to the attitudes of the time. I once met a German Ju 88 pilot who described his participation in the war like it was a black comedy. I suspected this was a very smart defense mechanism to deflect those who would have jumped down his throat for being a "baby killer." His hobby was building plastic models of WWII German aircraft, and, to me, this spoke volumes |
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That article is complete garbage.
The film was a huge flop here. Critics basicaly tear it apart. As for Castan - go get the book. As I've mentioned in another Richthofen thread it's possibly the only serious biography about the man. PS Leit, the shooting from below part is a myth. He went for the crew and engine where possible, but he did so by coming in from the high 6. You don't shoot from below when you're going for the pilot. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kennst du, Kind, meinen Zorn? Verzage dein Mut, wenn zermalmend auf dich stürzte sein Strahl! Wehe dem den er trifft! Trauer schüf' ihm sein Trotz! -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------  Simon "Hunin" Phoenix Servant of Wotan and Donar |
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Theres nothing wrong with "worshipping heroes". Especialy not when you grow up in an enviourment that basicaly denies all access to national pride. The overcompensation we see 's nothing measured against the national habits of others in the world. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kennst du, Kind, meinen Zorn? Verzage dein Mut, wenn zermalmend auf dich stürzte sein Strahl! Wehe dem den er trifft! Trauer schüf' ihm sein Trotz! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Simon "Hunin" Phoenix Servant of Wotan and Donar |
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In my experience people who find themselfs in this situation (Germans or Japanese) are sometimes more "embarrassed" when confronted by an "outsider". It feels strange for someone to make a "big deal" out of such an issue like this (in Germany and Japan everyone had a family member in the war)... Its hard for people who are not German, Japanese or Italian to understand how it feels to be identified with the actions of ones forefathers. You also don't know what kind of issues (problems) this "family member" might have had (after the war), and what kind of emotional impact (baggage) they may have had on the family...to you they are an historical figure, to them they could be someone who had "emotional issues". Sometimes it can feel strange to be continually identified by the actions of a "notorious relative"... These issues can be complicated and can be very confusing for some people... I'm just a Rock 'n' Roll footnote... |
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Allow me to disagree. Worshipping heroes is essentially like salivating at some hot chick in the latest Playboy. The pictures and the text makes her look like a goddess, but do you really know the woman, the person behind the pretty face? No, you don't. All that hero cult of the Third Reich was essentially a measure to cloud the people's eyes to the realities of war and how ugly it is. How many fighter pilots didn't survive their first mission? I guess nobody knows. But men like Mölders, Galland, Wick, Hartmann or Rall are known to everyone (back then and those who are interested in aviation history today). But do we know the men or are we just remembering the number of their claims? Do "the worshippers" know that Galland was vain and always wanted to be in the center of attention? Do they know that Hartmann had some very serious personality issues early on (extreme arrogance) and became an alcoholic later on (which lead to his early demise)? In my mind that "cult of hero worship" is just as bad as Guido Knopp's "100 new ways of making germans uncomfortable of their history" - both keep half of the story to themselves. In my mind those who have a real interest in history are beyond hero worshipping. Heroes are fakes, empty shells of people to deflect unwanted and uncomfortable facts. I have no use for heroes. |
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Forums 1C:Maddox Games IL2 Off Topic A Timely Antidote to a Soothing Modern Fantasy of von Richthofen
