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They just started up again where they left off before the Europians showed up. |
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There was a TV documentary show just recently that bears a resemblance to what LF said. |
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I knew someone just couldn`t resist, could they? I suppose Europe was peace at the time too, then? Perhaps if europe hadn`t disrupted Africa from its progression it may have become something akin to America today , having long solved major issues, and achieved a solid infrastructure, economy and people unravaged by greedy colonists after slaves, cash and fame. Provide the info to prove it like Beatcat did and I might possibly consider the remark. I did a little looking up myself and many African countries were doing rather well before the colonists turned up. bah. The brainwashing of europeans when regarding Africa still continues today. Before victorian times people of europe had a better understanding and even respect for Africa, even during the Crusades!  "DVNO, 4 Capital Letters, written in Gold..." ? |
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IL2 Moderator |
Phew, I'm glad that's never happened in Europe in living memory. |
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God forbid Robert Mugabe and the rest of his gang of thugs should be held responsible for their actions. Poor fellows, simply the inevitable outcome of generations of **** taking by white folk, I hope when those bastards get dragged before the Hague they try that defence too.
_______________________________________ Dum spiro, spero. |
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 Yes because all Africans drive around in toyotas wielding AK's http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Stereotype ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "If this isn't civilization, then why am I standing in a bomb crater?" Hawkeye Pierce, MASH |
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+1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "If this isn't civilization, then why am I standing in a bomb crater?" Hawkeye Pierce, MASH |
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Aye.  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One thing I've learned is this: Never allow yourself to hate a people because of the actions of a few. Hatred and bigotry destroyed my nation, and millions died. I would hope that most people did not hate Germans because of the Nazis, or Americans because of slaves. Never hate, it only eats you alive. Keep an open mind and always look for the good in people. You may be surprised at what you find. Oberst Erich Hartmann -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------  Simon "Hunin" Phoenix |
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I`d have Mugabe incarcerated to the fullest. Whatever the colonists did is NOT an excuse for his actions. I know that, YOU know that. Stop trying to derail the point I was trying to make. Mugabe is wrong, but that don`t mean Europeans (not necessarily WHITE people, as you try to turn it into) need to turn his actions into an excuse to falsely accuse Africa of always being backwards, or violent or never having a hope of any kind of peaceful living. I find often that Europeans like to use Africa far too much as a scapegoat to make themselves look superior subconscously even today. Sure, some countries of Africa aren`t perfect, an have their problems, but Europe`s had its issues too that still continue today. You know that. |
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Quick update: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7476735.stm
A one man election....  Lies, sanctions, and cruise missiles have never created a free and just society. Only everyday people can do that. Zack De La Rocha Do some good today http://www.freerice.com/ |
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IL2 Moderator  |
Very complex.. and yes.. it is on my bookshelf...
Very true... and while Mugabe and men like him , past & present do bear great responsibility for their actions, one must consider the effects of European colonization worldwide in the 15th, 16th,17th,18th & 19th centuries. India too had a thriving culture.. and a booming textile business .. before England came along... In the case of Africa in particular the effects were particularly devastating because when they redrew the lines in the 17th century they intentionally ignored the old boundaries and created new ones with areas overlapping where former enemies were tossed together... When the colonists pulled out there was a vacuum... and regardless to where he is from, man will always be man until he is changed from within and might will always make right. The man with the biggest stick will rule the barnyard.... From my somewhat limited understanding the reasons for all this are very simple, in fact it often causes people to ignore it because it is so simple, but it does work for me.. it just takes a leap of faith. |
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No, it wouldn't. Had the Europeans never colonized Africa, it would certainly be a better place, but not "something akin to America today", not by a long shot. Africa's problems run deeper and have other roots than just culture. If we look critically at Bearcat's list, we'll see that while there certainly where high cultures in sub-Saharan Africa, they where all short lived, even before Europeans started meddling. Large parts of sub-Saharan Africa suffer from low productivity of the soil, making the long-time intense agriculture that sustained Europe through Antiquity and the Middle Age impossible. Just a few hundred years will ruin the soil, making the society collapse and prevent the hundreds, perhaps thousands of years necessary to accumulate technology for for even gun-powder. The north-south orientation of the continent makes the establishment of a rich agricultural "package" containing African domesticated species difficult. The worlds top crops, most from the Fertile Crescent, simply can't be grown except in South Africa (and agriculture would have to pass through Sahara and the Jungle belt to get there). Compared to Europe and the Americas, Africa is actually under-populated, the land simply can't feed a denser population. Without a dense population in Europe, there would never have been a Roman Empire, no feudal society, no Renaissance, no Age of Science etc. Before someone mentions Egypt, remember that the areas north of the Sahara is culturally and historically tied to the Middle East and the Fertile Crescent. Africa is sawed in two by the worlds largest desert, and is culturally really two continents. We're discussing the sub-Saharan bits here. Sub-Saharan Africa lacks the basics, but they weren't doing too badly. After all, being the cradle of humanity they had a bit of a head start. They where well on their way to an iron-Age society despite the continents shortcomings when Colonialism struck. They had at least developed animal husbandry, making them used to the animal-derived germs the Europeans brought with them. Today Africa is still predominately inhabited by the original Africans. Look at the Americas and Australia and you see a chilling picture of a what Africa could have been. Africa's saving is also it's curse. The colonials tried to press a modern society on what is essentially iron-age traditions. Had you tried to press the same society on the Vikings, you'd probably get a similar result. In the American and Australia a modern society could be pressed on the natives because they where so utterly trodden down. Africans stood as proud as they could, and no essentially European society could rise (with the possible exception of South Africa, where European style agriculture is possible). Saying that Africa could evolve into something akin to modern US had the colonials stayed home is flying in the face of all we know. |
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It's worth noting that slavery was the cultural norm in Africa long before the Europeans appeared there, just as it was a cultural norm in pre-Christian Europe, in Rome, in Greece and in all societies wherever wars created prisoners. Let's not get too holier-than-thou about slavery. When slavery became an export market it was still run by Africans, up until colonisation became established.
Left to itself, without the forcible injection of European moral standards, religion and exploitation, Africa would surely have matured in a different way - but it's fanciful to imagine that it would have been either better or worse than what we have now. B |
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I knew someone would post this. I am well aware of this, Brando. Well aware, but I cannot put a clause for every single situation or my post would last 10 pages. I guarantee you that there is NO holier-than-thou situation I am trying to put on. Every country has its guilt. My point, which I`m desparately trying to stay to without the constant derailment attempts is not to poke the finger at Mugabe then say that Africa could never be any better anyway. And I`m afraid I cannot agree with you, friendly fire on your post. Perhaps Africa may have been as strong as America (it was a simple comparison), but I believe it would rival Europe and so come close to rival America too. |
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Well summed up. *********************** Bring back Buck!
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