quote:

Originally posted by FutureVenturer2:
If I'm ever going to consider buying another Driver game, I really need something more than a game which is worth my time and money; it needs to teach me something about society because, if you didn't already notice, most of the best art creations (found in books, fine arts, and movies) have proven themselves worthy enough by not only being very amusing, but also by treating our understanding of reality with care. Whether you like it or not, all forms of media (books, movies, games, etc.), not by every product, but by some, feature more than something that is worth your time to having fun. For instance, Metal Gear Solid is so fascinating because in its cut scenes, it speaks about cloning and a lot about things which make war seem wrong. Each character has a reason for being at war (e.g. love, loyality, greed, etc.) and so does Solid Snake. Unfortunately, when the player is trying to understand Snake, they don't ever really know why he is fighting. Instead, they can make choices of either killing the enemy or knocking them out. And, at the end of the story, the player has created himself a character for Snake.

The driving must be taken further, by having cops take real approaches, as those seen in the reality police chase TV shows. AI and physics as well as animations must be taken that far. As for on-foot, there should be various ways to attack an enemy, in which you can take cover, use simple grapples, punches, and kicks (those of a certain martials arts style, maybe karate), use weapons in first person view or third person view when aiming, and to roll to the side (not forward, which was found in D3 and happened to only worsen the situation) as well as in a way that is similar to that of MGS4, use the ability to stand up, crouch, or crawl (like in MGS games, and this will have the accuracy of firing your weapon vary, where crawling will make it the most accurate, crouching will make it less accurate, but certainly more accurate than when standing), and any other possible ways for survival. The things besides that of survival for the on-foot portion can be things like shimmying, climbing, running, walking, etc. Things like side missions, collecting things, simulation elements, or RPG elements don't need to be around because, of course, this is Driver, not GTA. Driver 4 doesn't need any relation to a GTA game whatsoever.

Please, no karate in a Driver game . I do like your other ideas, like the cops thinking like real cops, strategizing how they're going to take your vehicle out beyond the chase.

I'm taking video games like Driver 1 from the approach that I'm walking onto a roller coaster in an amusement park. I'm not getting onboard to learn about the history of the world, or to learn the value of morality, I'm getting on for a thrill ride. That's what I want in the next Driver most of all. If, while waiting in line till I board the coaster, the game offers a compelling storyline to listen to, that's fine, but it's the ride I'm really after, if that makes any sense.

Karate was just an example. And besides, I do think that something more like Bruce Lee's own fighting style (Jeet Kune Do or Jujitistu). And by the way, karate is something that my cousins practiced (one of them has just completed it in December of 2007). I'm not saying that I like it, but it isn't a bad martial arts style. However, I'd rather go for Ninjitsu, Tae Kwon Do, or any of those which Bruce Lee had learned.

Other than that, to be more clear about the idea of morality, I want the game to raise questions, to raise facts, anything like that. It does not have anything to do with our history (the U.S.) as a nation. It's interesting to go ahead and ask questions, from time to time, which can be done if a game really goes deep in its own meaning. And that is fine with me if you don't think there needs to be anything more than entertainment. Most people only want entertainment, anyways, but I'm a much wiser person, and my preferences are therefore narrowed down further. This pits me at forgetting those games which only meant being about fun, and it's fine if I have to leave them in the dust because one of the most important things in life is understanding. How are you to enjoy playing a sport unless you first learn to play it? How are you to enjoy a FPS game, unless you first learn its controls and general purpose? How are you to know anything about stoichiometry, if you don't chose to learn chemistry? The list of questions can go on, because that is how life runs. We must first be affiliated well enough with a particular thing before we can make any decisions. And when it comes to a game that is fun, I could almost pick every game that is rated great or higher, but now I'm understanding that reviewers (not critics) are only making reviews for the purpose of providing people a consumer's guide. They do this by telling what is good and bad about a product and whether or not you should buy it. Anything can be reviewed, and from what I've learned, this is not art. Art is criticism. Criticism, as in accordance to an article that I read to learn more about it (by Greg Costikan), is an informed discussion, by an intelligent and knowledgeable observer of a medium, of the merits and importance (or lack thereof) of a particular work. Criticism isn't intended to help the reader decide whether or not to plunk down money on something; some readers' purchase decisions may be influenced, but guiding their decisions is not the purpose of the critical work. Criticism is, in a sense merely "writing about" -- about art, about dance, about theater, about writing, about a game--about any particular work of art. How a critical piece addresses a work, and what approach it takes, may vary widely from critic to critic, and from work to work.

Here's another piece of info that speaks about, in detail, what criticism exactly feels like:

quote:

Some valid critical approaches? Where does this work fall, in terms of the historical evolution of its medium. How does this work fit into the creator's previous ouevres, and what does it say about his or her continuing evolution as an artist. What novel techniques does this work introduce, or how does it use previously known techniques to create a novel and impactful effect. How does it compare to other works with similar ambitions or themes. What was the creator attempting to do, and how well or poorly did he achieve his ambitions. What emotions or thoughts does it induce in those exposed to the work, and is the net effect enlightening or incoherent. What is the political subtext of the work, and what does it say about gender relationships/current political issues/the nature-nurture debate, or about any other particular intellectual question (whether that question is a particular hobby-horse of the reviewer, or inherently raised by the work in question).

And if you're so interested in knowing why people should not follow reviewers' opinions, instead taking in critics' opinions, and, moreover, why we should look into games with our own critiques, go here.

In other words, by saying that there needs to be a greater focus on how criticism is layed out, and how a medium involves more than just fun, but a powerful narrative that brings forth a lot of understanding, a very professional writer needs to be found to create such a piece of work. This is my last and perhaps my biggest request for Reflections. I can't break it down any further than this, which also ties into everything else, including the driving and on-foot elements. Sure, I might still come around, (I'm not promising anymore on whether I'll come or go since that hasn't worked out at all), but it'll be more around the context of the need for understanding. Not only will this help make others think more over what they've grown to follow (fun/entertainment as the main goal), but it may even change the way they think, so it may, in the end, provide a very significant factor that needs to be raised in public, simply because so many people don't know this. Hey, who knows, maybe I'll decide to one day provide an excellent example of what D4's storyline should be like, following both the path of fun and understanding.

FutureVenturer, while I do like movies or games that make you think or have a statement to make (sometimes), I just don't think Driver is that game. Theres nothing political about it. You just drive, and connecting driving with some deeper meaning will be lost on pretty much everyone who plays the game.

Art to me is annoying, take music for example, rather than make an entertaining song that people will like to hear and dance to, people who call themselves artists would rather whine for an excessively long time into a microphone about love or war, and not work to make their music likable in any form, blaming their failure on how other people don't understand music, when really they haven't a clue. Anyway, where was I?

Fine. Think that way. Go ahead. I don't care because I've jumped further into knowing what we need, and that is something more than just fun. Sometimes, we can actually learn a thing or two, which can either be small, or it can be so huge that it changes our lives dramatically. It's something that will take my excitement further.

If you think about it, exploring the ways of art in any medium requires more thinking, but that is also something that can help you better enjoy the entire experience surrounding your game, book, movie, or any sort of other medium, which it is that you have. I guess it's just that people are often lazy, or they just don't like to accept this into their own lives for themselves, simply because they haven't looked very far into it as a subject. And I understand that, if you ask me. If you won't be enlightened, and if InsaneDriver06 won't be enlightened, there is always a slight chance that someone else will be that person.

One of the reasons why it's good to follow the ways of art is because it is what makes you more different. Don't follow the ways of consumerism too much, which we often have taken into our own hands. And it is often consumerism that drives our desires for having something that seems like it truly might suit us in our lives. By applying art to something, you look at it more meaningfully and then you can make an even better decision. Popularity is what often makes games and other forms of mass media sell well. I used to follow that, but now I realize that popularity can be an important and significant thing, but is not always this way. Some things may just be popular, but the majority who didn't buy it might say that it doesn't interest them at all.

Video games are the last medium to follow the approach of narrative. They are at the "Birth of a Nation" stage, currently. Birth of A Nation (1919) was the very first film to signify a huge improvement in narrative in cinema and it is what led the path for many other movies to come, for when it comes to driving the narrative to new heights. Then, with film directors like Jean Renoir, they drove cinema even further, applying artistic expression and culture within it. This is one of the reasons why, eventually, everyone living would go ahead and buy a TV to watch films and TV shows. The 1920s began as a huge period for people in the U.S. to watch movies, as it was infact, the Roaring Twenties. And now, video games must reach the stage where everyone will look towards video games and almost every household will accept them. They also must be noticed by gamers and the press as more than just entertainment. Video games, like movies, need their own critics, not reviewers. Reviewers don't resemble art (only are consumer guides), whereas critics, which are going the ways of the dodo bird, are not about telling which product to buy, but they are simply around for the purpose of intelligent discussion that involves the products that we may have already purchased, helping us understand their themes, plot, and characters much better by connecting them to society and reality. This is why I feel that criticism must be taken seriously and why understanding (art) should also be noticed by many people, especially those who create their own works (i.e. game developers, studios, artists, painters), and I definitely would like Reflections to realize the importance of this.

So how did you become enlightened? You sound like you know everything, must've been a good TV special!

Read my third and also my last paragraph, which I've edited in my post, and then you'll get the whole picture better. You can then respond to me, perhaps in a more intelligent and respectful manner.

Oh, and whenever I have enough time, I do hope to come up with a storyline that really would fit D4 well, employing both art and fun.

It says the same thing as all your other posts:
"something something something art something something something meaningful..." etc

I think your right about the intro. The parallel lines intro was rather weak I felt. Driv3r was much better at the cutscenes narative and general style. Parallel Lines' cutscenes looked amazing and the voicing was fantastic but I didn't get the same atmosphere from it.

Story is also a big deal. A lame story leads to u not caring what happens, not what you want from a series thats rapidly falling apart. I suggest they get a proper writer in to do the story. The Godfather (film) has got an amazing storyline and I cared about the characters. Reflections just need to watch that they dont make the game all about the story. Just don't treat it as an after thought. For instance, the Parallel Lines concept was brilliant but the whole idea of revenge was just plain silly. I never cared enough about TK. So i didnt care about what happened to him and couldnt care less if he gets his own back.

quote:

Originally posted by J_Frumpleberg:
It says the same thing as all your other posts:
"something something something art something something something meaningful..." etc

Let me tell you something, J_Frumpleberg. Video games are behind that of movies and every other medium because they're currently only at a stage where it's all about narrative and entertainment, which is also why there hasn't been so much innovation throughout the years. I can tell you now that movies grew more vastly in terms of concepts, ideas, and innovation, simply because their studios had decided to look further than just the likes of entertainment. They referred back to literature, in that they were able to discover that movies can work in only so many different ways. And yet many developers are looking into movies, but they're missing the point that it's more than just about entertainment and about the story. Certain games don't need stories at all, but for those which do have stories, they might as well have some very different ones in terms of their own themes.

Why is it that so many developers have merely nothing more than improvement over that of existing game formulas? Do you wish to know? I can tell you that the blame for this is mostly that developers haven't looked any deeper than they could've. Everyone has a chance of possibly employing a video game that changes the way we've experienced games in the past, but too many developers, as well as their publishers, care for money more than for their passion in designing games.

When games had been taken to a whole new level, this happened around the time of both soon after the 1983 stock market crashed, which was when the U.S.'s many companies working in the video game industry got lost. Thanks to a previously trading card company, now a video game company, called Nintendo, we were saved and didn't lose the world of video games. I think that if you look carefully at the world's history, it may be true that only the darkest times of our lives were when we actually saw people stand up to the challenge and bring forth true art and significant changes for our society. This happened in the Great Renaissance, as did it happen during WWI, WWII, and during the Cold War. In fact, it's very fascinating to know how many different talented studios created their own films during the times of the Cold War. My point is that we may never truly see a time where games will vastly see innovation and growth, or better yet, have them reach that level of culture and self expression, which goes beyond just the good narrative that is present in many games today. I guess that we are quite out of luck until we are able to see a time like that happen. But it should never be kept out of our minds of how much significance art has been in driving messages through so many of our families, from generation to generation. Fine arts and music, as well as literature, in the old days, were all which we had to ourselves, and we took great pride in them, hopefully for more than the sake of fun.

Therefore, I don't know if there will ever come a time that we'll soon see games reach that level of high art, as all the previous mediums have already done so, but we should at least consider to work that much harder for a successful life. I want to make my family proud, and I want to make sure that, for every generation that passes, it'll continue to grow better and better, driving knowledge and morality into the minds of my people. But sometimes, it won't be me, nor will it be someone's own family member who is responsible for changing their paths, either for good or bad, but it'll be the art that is contained within mass media. I sure hope that society will not piss up to the likes of Rockstar North and other big bad influences because only bad will come from people like this. Maybe you haven't already a clue about what games are truly right for society and, for that matter, don't care whatsoever. Also, if you had thought of including art in every medium, maybe you would've not gone wasting so much of your time with video games because you'd know that, while it is good to enjoy yourself and to learn more, your life must go on, letting nothing as small as playing video games ruin your future. But you didn't get that to work, did you? As you can see, art is what clears our minds with more understanding, about how we must live. Taking your time on video games each day for less than 2 hrs. may not be bad at all. Heck, you can play video games for only 30 minutes a day. From there, you'll have lots of time to do other things, and you'll learn more as well as have fun doing it. And, if you one day have nothing interesting to discuss, you can always think back to something which a particular video game has taught you that is so important. Take my word for it. This is all that I have left to say to you.

The whole point of videogames (in the first place) was entertainment, but now realism is rearing its ugly head and destroying franchises that were once great. Maybe creativity is dying, no one will make up their own ideas so they steal from reality because its easier. But thats beside the point.

Videogames are simply toys, but taken to the next level, where you don't have to imagine the surroundings (maybe not the best thing, as we'll have a bunch of stupid kids with no imagination). ****, I had to imagine Driv3r was a good game.

Read a book if you want to find deeper understanding. But don't come on here thinking you're some artist all of a sudden just so people think you're smart and rally around your lame ideas.

Smiler, my post before this wasn't addressed to you, sorry about the confusion.

quote:

Originally posted by J_Frumpleberg:
The whole point of videogames (in the first place) was entertainment, but now realism is rearing its ugly head and destroying franchises that were once great. Maybe creativity is dying, no one will make up their own ideas so they steal from reality because its easier. But thats beside the point.

Videogames are simply toys, but taken to the next level, where you don't have to imagine the surroundings (maybe not the best thing, as we'll have a bunch of stupid kids with no imagination). ****, I had to imagine Driv3r was a good game.

Read a book if you want to find deeper understanding. But don't come on here thinking you're some artist all of a sudden just so people think you're smart and rally around your lame ideas.

Smiler, my post before this wasn't addressed to you, sorry about the confusion.

Actually, video games are not only designed to be for fun. I've read recently an article about something else, besides art, and this was another issue surrounding video games. This topic was serious games. There have been a number of serious games made in the past and while they didn't go mainstream as games that are centered around being high quality and done for the purpose of fun, they have been able to give certain people messages as to how video games can do more than just be fun, and how the experiences a player feels will impact him/her in what he/she does to help a certain issue that is discussed as a topic in a video game. There've been several video games surrounding politics and how we need to work to end poverty in our world. These games true purposes are to influence society better.

If you look at movies, there haven't been very many serious movies (documentaries) up until the time of the 1960s and 1970s, so it did take quite some time before the movie industry would mature itself. This makes it clear that, at every point in time, with any type of medium, a new medium will eventually mature itself as soon as it moves further than the purpose of entertainment. And while serious games may not become mainstream any time soon, it certainly is a topic which people should take to help bring our realization that hobbies/interests of ours can be more than just about the idea of fun.

If you don't like facing society in knowing that there are actually plenty of issues concerning society, then don't do so, but I like to think of being able to know both the good and bad things because that makes me feel a lot more clear about the whole situation surrounding a certain topic. Maybe you just like to pretend as if nothing is wrong with some of the things which we currently have today, and that is fine with me.

Damn, I just would wish that we'd get another forum surrounding Driver on this forums because just about every other game has more than one forum (one for off-topic discussions, and others surrounding the game). If there was a forum like an off-topic discussion in the Driver category, then I'd discuss things like this over there, not having to bother you guys at all with what issues surround today's gaming industry.

Anyways, that is the last bit of information I'll ever discuss surrounding things like before (art and other game issues). Well, I might still have references to that, but I'll make it somewhat more connected with the ideas that should go into the making of Driver 4.

I still feel that we need a theme and a storyline that feels really emotional and realistic, such that it actually is enjoyable and that it helps us learn about what crime really is like and how the law tries to make sure its get rid of it. Also, before I used to feel that film director is a good feature that should be in the next Driver game, but now, as I think more about the fact that games should be driven through the player's experience and not through viewing something (cut scenes), I would have to regard film director as nothing more of a feature which tries to take the form of a cut scene or movie, and most people probably haven't spent a lot of time on it, so it is irrelevant to the Driver franchise. It worked in the first game, but it feels pretty old now. Driver 4 really needs to feel as different from the GTA franchise as it is possible for Reflections to make that happen, in terms of the storyline, the characters, the setting, the emotions, the vehicles, and practically everything else. REMOVE THE SIDE MISSIONS, THE HIDDEN ITEMS, AND ANYTHING ELSE IRRELEVANT TO THE MAIN PORTIONS OF THE GAME. For now, I will just feel comfortable with the storyline being the whole focus of the game. Sure, you should maybe be able to do something outside of the missions as well, but don't make it relate in any way to GTA IV or any previous GTA game.

Something which can be focused on very much, despite it being in some relation to GTA IV, is more interacting with everyone in the game. This is definitely an important component of a game. And I'd really like it if Reflections can make cut scenes replaced with only gameplay, making dialogue go on throughout the game, much like in Half-Life or Half-Life 2, whose dialogue was actually done very well. They may be regarded as the best FPS games of all time, by knowing that they had many strengths.

For your information, when a game doesn't have any cut scenes, it is refer to having a scripted sequence. A scripted sequence should play out in D4 because high quality cut scenes don't connect to much to the gameplay's graphics. It is considered pre-rendered footage, and not real-time footage to use high quality CGI, so I don't want that because it looks different from that of the actual game's graphics. Also, once again, it costs a lot more and the Driver franchise really never has anything unique about its cut scenes, so it is useless to use any.

I'd suggest the cutscene money gets spent on in game graphics. then the real time cutscenes wouldnt be half as bad.The only pre rendered cutscenes should be the trailer, intro, Ending and if there is a big plot twist. but not one for every mission

In a video game generation such as this, why would there be anymore need to include pre-rendered cut scenes when textures found in real-time graphics are actually starting out to look very good. Look at games like Crysis or Gears of War. They don't need pre-rendering. Even GTA IV doesn't need it. As far as I'm concerned, pre-rendering will begin to get smaller, which will then result in much better work spent creating video games, so Reflections shouldn't use pre-rendered cut scenes at all.

quote:

Originally posted by FutureVenturer2:
In a video game generation such as this, why would there be anymore need to include pre-rendered cut scenes when textures found in real-time graphics are actually starting out to look very good. Look at games like Crysis or Gears of War. They don't need pre-rendering. Even GTA IV doesn't need it. As far as I'm concerned, pre-rendering will begin to get smaller, which will then result in much better work spent creating video games, so Reflections shouldn't use pre-rendered cut scenes at all.

I have to agree but those pre rendered scenes look so good.

I did not say that all game developers have already the potential to create graphics that go as far as Gears of War or Crysis. It will very likely take at least a year for another game to surpass Gears of War, and maybe more than a year to go past Crysis's CryEngine 2. Then again, it's possible that it can happen at any moment. As soon as a game developer finds some very talented artists and either decides to take up the Unreal 3 Engine, or the CryEngine 2, this could mean that they have a slight chance at beating Epic Game's Gears of War or Crytek's Crysis in terms of visuals.

Games have always been the point of interaction. They are not about watching. And the thing which makes me all the more uncomfortable is that games many times use cut scenes, and yet it is nothing special. Graphics. What is so special about pre-rendered cut scenes? It just proves that artists have nothing better to do in terms of real-time graphics and that they really aren't as talented as they believe they are. Cut scenes only would be good for a game if it is going to really raise questions or drive a game through using its emotions. If a game doesn't have one or two of the following, it is nothing significant at all. The only developers whose games actually contained emotions and raised questions were Square Enix (the Final Fantasy series) and Kojima Productions (the Metal Gear series). Every other developer just seems to only look one way; entertainment. And believe me, some developers have already learned to live without the use of cut scenes. Why is it so hard for others to learn to look beyond cut scenes? Valve, the studio which created the Half Life series and, 2K Australia, the studio which created Bioshock, didn't need to use cut scenes at all throughout the game, except that, in the beginning of Bioshock, you're introduced to the main character, but other than that, these games have no cutscenes at all. Also, they still are able to use emotions and to bring up questions, so why is it that other developers can't learn to look past video games as nothing more than the "child of movies?" Video games should've always tried to look past being nothing more than a watching experience at some point, instead choosing to be 100% interactive. Even when 2-D was too hard to make possible for us to look past pixels game developers could've used their own styles of designing their games to ensure that cut scenes wouldn't be needed.

How are video games ever going to reach virtual reality if we keep getting a single cut scene, at one point, throughout almost every video game that becomes available?

Well I'm tired of arguing just for the sake of arguing. Seemed funny at the time, now its just annoying.

I always hate how cutscenes steal the action, because action is for gameplay, and putting the action (gunfight in D3) into a cutscene is basically admitting you suck at programming.

All the time and money they spent perfecting the graphics (though they did look nice) could've been better spent on programmers. Cutscenes included, I'd rather have real-time cutscenes anyway because then you don't have 2 completely different looking versions of the same world.

Not to mention graphics slow down the system when overdone, and slow down is the enemy in racing and action games. We need to be able to drive fast and have plenty of destruction going on without much slow down. And plenty of cops on the tail, smoke from explosions, etc. all the cool stuff.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: J_Frumpleberg,

So if they get rid of the fancy cutscenes, it'll be GTA? If they actually work to make the game good instead of hiding behind pretty graphics, it'll be GTA? Maybe Driver should just go on sucking then.

quote:

Originally posted by J_Frumpleberg:
Well I'm tired of arguing just for the sake of arguing. Seemed funny at the time, now its just annoying.

I always hate how cutscenes steal the action, because action is for gameplay, and putting the action (gunfight in D3) into a cutscene is basically admitting you suck at programming.

All the time and money they spent perfecting the graphics (though they did look nice) could've been better spent on programmers. Cutscenes included, I'd rather have real-time cutscenes anyway because then you don't have 2 completely different looking versions of the same world.

Not to mention graphics slow down the system when overdone, and slow down is the enemy in racing and action games. We need to be able to drive fast and have plenty of destruction going on without much slow down. And plenty of cops on the tail, smoke from explosions, etc. all the cool stuff.

I totally agree with you on this topic, J_Frumpleberg. Developers need to get over the idea of how hard it is to drive a storyline forward without cut scenes. The biggest problem is that many developers don't even try to make a game without the use of cut scenes because they're too afraid. Bioshock shows exactly how narrative can be powerful and not need the inclusion of cut scenes.

Programmers are better off replacing the people in the development process that are about the special effects. Screw special effects. Action used to look incredible at around several decades ago, as to how the quality was, but that is all in the past. Reflections, please don't make a fool of your staff. Choose to go the direction of real-time cut scenes, to say the least. This generation is already warming up in its ability to bring impressive textures together, such that I'll be fine with however you choose to go with the graphics for the actual game itself (as long as they'r