Hello and welcome to the first topic of the big issues found in the Driver series. I will be sure to discuss this topic at first and there will be even more where that came from. Lets start now. Shall we?

As we may know, the Driver series has had a lot of strength put into the gameplay, but that only goes for the driving. One important key feature that hasn't been off to a good start for this franchise is: Free-roam or Adventure gameplay, which both offer a great deal of exploration and should give many reasons to explore all of that as there is much for you to do. You can recall Super Mario 64 as being a really great platform game, but it also had many to see and do as it was a big world for Mario. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time took those stakes even further. Then the GTA games pushed the freedom for the player more and Reflections hasn't done much about that, even with the fact that the Driver series does now use guns and on-foot gameplay. This is a dissapointment.

When you have a city as that of DPL or D3, you should have many paths to take and be able to find anything to do at almost every path. Otherwise, it doesn't feel like it should go with the game at all. Having a city/world with much to see, but not much to do is not going to push the gameplay far at all.

Driver 4 needs to push the adventure/free-roaming gameplay within a city even further and allow players plenty to do, regardless of which part of the city they're in. Since GTA III, the GTA games have been able to have you go and do anything at almost every corner, but not Driver and certainly not the other free-roam games. Those games were just not able to realize that with free-roam, you're responsible for giving the player the freedom to do anything they want; whatever, whenever, and wherever. I think that if Driver does achieve this and allow players to do anything almost anywhere, it could be able to knock off GTA or at least get more closer to it. If Reflections wasn't able to realize that when they got involved in the free-roam genre, they were to allow the player to do whatever they want, whenever, and wherever, then I at least hope they are able to read this post and finally be able to understand.

Where should I start? Well, first of all, the many alleyways in DPL didn't serve up well for the Free-roam genre as you hardly had anything to do, but drive in the game, so Reflections must correct this and put together a world in which almost if not every place in the game is for the player to have a lot to do and not be left with only a few choices. A lot of situations should occur as well, so if a car gets involved with the law enforcement and you want to do something about it, you should be able to do so. Reflections shouldn't work too little on this genre as they could instead be raising and even going over the bar. If they were to do that, think of how well of an achievement it would be for its franchise and for Ubisoft. It's pointless to have a city and have car chases only be the major part of it when players want more than just that. It's about making the world within the game succeed and you can't make it go only one way, Reflections. I've been doing a lot of reading for The Art of Producing Games, a book that teaches you about preproduction and production of video games and when it comes to level design, you need to make sure that all the space the player has gives an interesting way of doing this because if you don't give players enough to explore a level/world, the players may just bail out and think of it as boring as well as a dissapointment, so please don't make this mistake ever again, Reflections.

Now it's your turn, Driver fans, on discussing this topic further as it is an important thing to talk about. Therefore, lets have it stay alive until after the Driver forums has been created.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Assaultmachine1,

I was thinking about posting something like this, because a few weeks back I played D3 for a few hours while writing down whats good and whats not. So, without further ado, bla:

D3, What Was Bad:
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*Low Traffic Amount (fixed in PL)
*Slow Top Speed (fixed)
*Lifeless City
*Dull, uninspired music (somewhat better in DPL)
*Need more weapon and vehicle variety
*Hills and bridges not exaggerated enough for jumps
*Too many invincible fences (back yards mainly)
*Motorcycles sucked (fixed in PL)
*Traffic doesn't run when you shoot it
*Can't stand on moving vehicle
*Jump needs much improvement
*Cop chases not challenging
*Invisible walls, especially annoying on cliffs of Nice
*Slow turning speed when aiming weapons

D3, The Good:
----------------
*Incredibly detailed cities, plenty of backyards, buildings are seperate from eachother
*Great physics and damage, especially when airborn
*FPS controls like Halo (dual stick) are good, need some improvement
*Detailed graphics and cars
*Each car appears somewhat equally (nice cars are seen as much as cap cars)
*Hitting pedestrians doesn't slow you down, though they should still run but be possible to hit
*When you jump out of your car, it keeps going
*Infinite Mass Mode (although should have been available in all cities)

.: Driver Parallel Lines:.
-----------------------------
The Bad:
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*Open car doors are invincible
*Cops can't keep up
*Not very hilly still
*Peds slow you down and don't run
*See Also D3 Bad list, lots of things weren't fixed

The Good:
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*Bikes are MUCH improved, I think they could use a little tweaking still
*Car Upgrades much appreciated, but need more variety and some work
*Lots of alleyways, but filled with much clutter
*A few jumps, still not quite enough
*A few cool areas around the city, but only for a few minutes, nothing is happening at construction sites, or at docks
*Nitro is always cool, maybe make a system like Burnout where pulling off slides or barely missing a crash can recharge it.
*Once again, good things from past games are left out. Why?

I may add D1 and 2 to this list in the future

That would be very greatful if you could do that and thanks for being able to respond to this topic.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Assaultmachine1,

Here are my pros of all Driver games:
Great car chase AI (D:PL mostly)
Swimming (Driv3r)
Shooting (Driv3r and D:PL)
Selectable songs and real songs in the gameplay (D:PL)
Realistic physics (all Driver games, but mostly D:PL)
Jumping (Driv3r)
Weather other than dry (Driv3r)
Dynamic time with moving clouds, sun, and moon (D:PL)
Real cities (all Driver games)
Train rides (Driv3r)
Good control mappings for driving (D:PL)
Good control mappings for on foot (Driv3r)
Customization (D:PL)
Drivable boats (Driv3r)
Drivable cranes (Driv3r)
Ladder climbing (Driv3r)
Drivebies (D:PL)
Burnout is combined with acceleration, meaning no burnout button, and just an accelerator (D:PL)
Hand-to-hand combat and pistol whipping (D:PL)
Open world structure with no front-end menu or load screens (D:PL)
Speedometer, odometer, and nitrous meter (D:PL)
Lots of enterable buildings (Driv3r)
Multiplayer games (Driver 2)
Awesome soundtrack (D:PL)
Realistic Damage (D:PL and Driv3r)

I'd agree with most of your list Driverman, but how can you possibly include:
Realistic physics (all Driver games, but mostly D:PL)
I think most people (including me) would say that DPL's physics were total **** compared to D3.
Even compared to 1 & 2 for that matter!

Well D:PL has the most realistic driving physics for the vehicles you can drive out of the rest of the series. Driver 1 & 2 were realistic (for PS1 games), although it had that damn burnout button and you couldn't keep a constant speed (you could go either faster or slower). And Driv3r did feel realistic, although the damage didn't interfere with the physics (you know, like the more damage, the more smoke billowing and slower speeds) and Driv3r also had that retarded burnout too. D:PL has the most realistic driving physics compared to any other Driver game. Case closed.

quote:

Originally posted by Driverman2006
PL has the most realistic driving physics compared to any other Driver game. Case closed.

I'll give you your point about the damage, smoke, and slower speeds. Even the burnout button... but the case is still far from closed!
Given your points, compared to previous Driver games, DPL's car handling feels like a broken down ride at an amusement park arcade.
It lacks the total control that we've come to know and love in the Driver series.

quote:

Originally posted by KORTECK:

quote:

Originally posted by Driverman2006
PL has the most realistic driving physics compared to any other Driver game. Case closed.

I'll give you your point about the damage, smoke, and slower speeds. Even the burnout button... but the case is still far from closed!
Given your points, compared to previous Driver games, DPL's car handling feels like a broken down ride at an amusement park arcade.
It lacks the total control that we've come to know and love in the Driver series.

Well first of all, it depends on what you drive. And second, I don't see much of a difference in D:PL's handling compared to Driv3r's. D:PL has more [realistic] driving. Like burnout is combined with acceleration, the smoke output is greater, and the vehicles slow down DRASTICALLY when you're close to being totaled. D:PL also has customization (including nitrous) unlike Driv3r, so that could make another difference too. But anyway, just crusing around in a regular car in Driv3r and D:PL feels the same.

I'd have to disagree on the chase AI, the cops can't keep up at all, blame it on the traffic, but there should be a way around it, I got through the traffic, why can't the cops?

We need thick smoke, like in the Killzone 2 trailer. That was awesome, and plenty of debris and dirt kicking up, and good looking fire.

If you haven't realized, this topic is about free-roam/adventure gameplay, so why are we discussing the driving physics in this thread?

Do you not think of the small amount of free-roam gameplay in the driver series as something that poses a problem?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Assaultmachine1,

quote:

Originally posted by Assaultmachine1:
If you haven't realized, this topic is about free-roam/adventure gameplay, so why are we discussing the driving physics in this thread?

I think the reason is because a proper forum has yet to be set up and there are only about 3 or 4 guys who are even talking about Driver here at ubisoft.
It seems pretty ridiculous to regulate your topic like this John. If we make a new thread about every little thing, then the threads will spread all over the place and it'll be hard to find them.
Go ahead and piss off the other 3 guys and watch how fast your "free roaming topic" sinks to the bottom of the pile.

EDIT: In fact, to prevent future problems like this, I've just started a new thread for general Driver discussions.

matt jon, you and Driverman are invited to copy and paste your lists to the general discussion thread where we can discuss them unencumbered.
Everyone is welcome to participate, including you Assaultmachine1

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KORTECK,

Yes, I see your point, KORTECK, but there could've been a different topic made about the driving elements of the game, which I was about to make soon, but now that this discussion is crushed and ruined, with them having not been serious about how the Driver series' free-roam gameplay is not been going so well, I don't know what will end up next in this topic or even if it will see another post.

I'm going to try and make this post stick accordingly to this discussion and I will say this. Driver does need more for it that goes along the lines of free-roam because if Reflections still can't get that done for the next-gen Driver game, I find it that they should just completely forget about free-roam and just assume that it was a terrible concept to ever try fitting into the driver franchise, leaving you glued within the driver's seat of a vehicle and playing it much like the first Driver game, which I wouldn't mind at all because the hollywood styled car chases and driving would need to look as that of the films in order for it to do great.

Korteck, as far as wishlists go, I really couldn't care anymore about a wishlist, I will still post what I think the next game in the series should acomplish, but over the last two games, posting my ideas in wishlists has not really lead to an big enough improvement in gameplay to warrant doing it all again.

Although some things we all posted were put into DPL, it still wasn't that great of a game. I do appreciate Reflections for reading the forums and caring for what the fans want, but some of the more ambitious elements of the wishlist have not been pursued, only the more shallow elements, such as upgrades and drive-by's. They have not delved into deeper gameplay, which is unacceptable I think at this point in time, when either if they want to admit it or not, they are competing with GTA. GTA is the next level above Driver, and all other games trying to be GTA. Driver needs to stop being GTA, it needs to be Driver beyond GTA.

GTA really isn't a huge improvement over Driver, its just got more varied gameplay that isn't as top notch as people claim it to be. Really all the elements of GTA are afterthoughts that haven't been executed to their full potential. Sure, they'llbe a bit better next time around, and there will be a lot more features to play around with next time, but they'll all be fairly shallow. If Reflections could look into all these aspects and theirs of their own game, they could really succeed with their next game, they just need to realize how it all plays out, and from looking at the last two games, I'd have to say no one at Reflections played either game before releasing it, or they were on a really tight schedule and couldn't fix the obvious flaws. Lets hope it was the second of the choices, because I actually believe it was.

[edit] and about free roam, Driver has always been free roam, exhibit A, Take a Ride

I see what you're saying, Matt_jon, but in order for Reflections to be able to take its franchise beyond GTA in free-roam, they would need more brilliantly minded people and I feel that Gareth Edmondson is the only expert when it comes to knowing the Driver series the best. Martin Edmondson was one step and probably still is one step higher than that.

Now if Reflections wants to continue the guns blazing and other **** that has nothing to do with the driving, they're going to need another person as good or even better than Martin or Gareth to get the job done. As far as I'm concerned, the rest of the team is nothing, but lazy since they haven't been able to succeed in doing something new for the franchise.

Let me point out something to you. The graphics aren't as good as D3's and that may not be because DPL was to be more about the gameplay, it's because the people hired for creating the graphics engine were not good. Rockstar North's graphics could've been better, especially when you look at how Criterion pushed Renderware, the graphics engine being used for Burnout games, really further than most of the other games dealing with racing.

Rockstar North didn't seem to have very much talent in the lines of putting together a graphics engine, so that is really the reason why the games weren't as capable of looking better. I'm very sure that there could've been a better job with the graphics even in San Andreas and that the capacity was not pushed to as far as a CD goes. God of War 2, Okami, and Tomb Raider Anniversary Edition are the games that show how the PS2 can be taken to its limits in every category possible whether it's the gameplay, graphics, controls, or even the replay value and neither Driver or GTA have been able to do that for the Playstation 2 or even for the Xbox, which I find as a failure for both Rockstar North and Reflections.

The really question that I would consider asking is: Is there any people working in Reflections that will be able to push the next Driver games to as far as the limits go on a CD or Blu-Ray disc?

Gameplay has had some roughness in the lines of free-roam gameplay for the Driver franchise and, of course, it wouldn't be a bad idea to improve on that. Although it is possible, Reflections needs to consider themselves on finding the best people for those jobs in order to assure that they get done whatever must be done. Driver 1 went pretty far with its capacity and on all the work that was crammed into it, even for free-roam gameplay, so D76, the new DPL ports, and even D4 or D5 will need to cram the best elements and work, on to their discs, in order for the games to succeed. This does involve fixing the game up as well.

Gathering up plenty of more testers, the right people for physics and graphics engines, the artists great for vehicles and environments as well as characters, and story and script writers that best suit for a criminal story is what the Driver games will need to see more of in order for there to be a line of improvement in Reflections contribution to the world of video games.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Assaultmachine1,

While Martin Edmonson may be the genius behind Driver 1, I feel he tried too much to fit in with D3. Instead of going with his gut, he did whatever GTA did, only to a lesser extent, possibly because he wanted it to seem like he was not copying GTA, or because he had run out of ideas.

Gareth has not done a better job either. While D3 was already enough like GTA, Gareth wanted to stylize the city, often seen in GTA games. I'm not saying being like GTA is bad, GTA is a good game, with its own faults (cheapness), but use your imagination, build on what GTA has done, and go a step further using your own ideas, some people might reject it for not being mainstream, but **** them. Find your own niche, for Driver its the chases. As I've said, don't make it only about the chases, they can be the focus, but there needs to be other gameplay to keep the gamer hooked, and it needs to be done well. Who cares what GTA might be doing with their next game. Do your own thing and capitalize on it.

While Martin Edmonson may be the genius behind Driver 1, I feel he tried too much to fit in with D3. Instead of going with his gut, he did whatever GTA did, only to a lesser extent, possibly because he wanted it to seem like he was not copying GTA, or because he had run out of ideas.

Gareth has not done a better job either. While D3 was already enough like GTA, Gareth wanted to stylize the city, often seen in GTA games. I'm not saying being like GTA is bad, GTA is a good game, with its own faults (cheapness), but use your imagination, build on what GTA has done, and go a step further using your own ideas, some people might reject it for not being mainstream, but screw them. Find your own niche, for Driver its the chases. As I've said, don't make it only about the chases, they can be the focus, but there needs to be other gameplay to keep the gamer hooked, and it needs to be done well. Who cares what GTA might be doing with their next game. Do your own thing and capitalize on it.

Yes. Isn't it a big shame as to how the minds of Reflections have slipped since Martin left Reflections and as Gareth stepped into Martin's shoes as the head of the development team?

I have to say that you're right. I feel that a development team must not limits themselves yet they should change some things while putting as much work and effort further into making their games and that should be done for every single line of the game whether it's the sound, graphics, gameplay, controls, or even its replay value. Reflections will be able to strengthen the Driver franchise on a lot of different levels if its team members are devoted to the chases and even to other forms of gameplay. As long as they go as far as they could ever get the work out of themselves, they will be able to push Driver to its limits and be able to have it strong in each attribute (sound, controls, gameplay, graphics, and replay value), which is definetly a big priority of Reflections.

Well it seems like this topic cannot be further discussed or instead, we should probably discuss any of the issues of the Driver series in the discussion thread that Korteck had made.

There's definitely some solid ideas above. Well done.

About the free roam on foot ability, yes, it needs to be expanded in the Driver series, as it's just about getting to other vehicles, walking and shooting for the most part. There's almost no interaction with the game world in the way of lifting objects, stacking objects, setting up ramps, climbing buildings, trees, rocks, cliffs. And bring back the abilities of Driv3r, but improve them greatly: Jumping, climbing, swimming, etc.

Crackdown, for the 360 allows lifting of objects, stacking and so on, but it's still tough to make ramps for your vehicles.

Tanner should be able to walk up to a person and tackle them, punch them, grab their arm and pull them to other locations where they can be thrown off a bridge or into a car as a passenger while you stunt around the city. Something. Anything to break up the 'same old open city formula' we've been seeing since GTA.

Yes. We have mentioned some good ideas earlier in the topic. And while Driver must be able to handle those things of GTA, it must also improve over it and possibly take a level further. Matt_jon said before that Driver needs to go past the level of freedom and kind of free-roam gameplay that the previous GTA games have had to offer. I think that after GTA IV comes out, Reflections will very well know what to do with the next-gen Driver game and that they will know what they must avoid having as a part of their problems.

I heard that Halo 2 was somewhat of a dissapointment for Bungie studios. Despite the fact that it delivered multiplayer and a few other new things, it didn't reach the highest expectations that the team had for it originally and now they're going to work that much hard on Halo 3. If they work harder than before, it's possible that Halo 3 may be an even bigger game than either Halo 2 or even than the original Halo game itself.

What my point about the paragraph concerning work on Halo 3 and the dissapointment of Halo 2 is that if Reflections could make a bad game and then go to making a good game like DPL, it's possible that they can take the stakes even higher and put together a Driver game that can be a predecessor to that of the previous Driver games. I expect this much from Reflections as they need to work really hard in order to be considered as having one of the biggest and still standing game franchises.