This is a question which I was thinking to myself when I believed that Reflections has no way to innovate nor build upon existing features as much as the rest of the competition, unless it drops something. And narrative is the answer. If they drop their own narrative, which, as was in previous Driver games (excluding the first), terrible, I think that this would help drive the freedom, car chases, and realism forward. Also, I know that narrative isn't too much of a significant part in open-world games, due to the fact that it is a usually linear experience (even for a non-linear game). Therefore, by sacrificing narrative for everything else, it's possible to create the Driver vision that we've always been waiting for.

Reflections can give us good user-created content to backup the loss of a story (create-a-character, create-a-vehicle, etc.). And modding can be added as a feature. Also, the driving experience can be taken to a whole new level. Think of the possibilities.

I really don't think I want user created content more than story. Story is why I first play games. Driver has had stories whereas GTA's, True Crimes and other free roams have no or much weaker story and more unrealistic gameplay. I think that has been Drivers advantage, taking them out would be lowering weapons against GTA.

Driver stories haven't been terrible either. They are decent, and it's pretty hard to tell great stories when missions vary from **** shooting to anything from **** to great driving missions. There just isn't too much immersion.

I clearly think not, especially when Driver is only this type of game having a considerable story. Just make the game more variable and include different missions, and then include all that and more to free ride mode and mini games. For me the story is always the base that makes the game, games like Super Smash Bros are rare and even it would be lot better with story.

It's your opinion on which game(s) had the best narrative. However, I feel that the Driver franchise had largely had some really unimpressive storylines. For instance, Driv3r's did pretty badly, due to the fact that it was centered around stealing cars and stole too much from a movie, which, called Gone in Sixty Seconds, wasn't even a good movie. Driver 2 had a take on a war between two gangs, which wasn't seen very unique, but it wasn't terrible; it was just mediocre. DPL's storyline was okay, but the ending and the killing of the characters was pretty lame. It centered around only 31 missions (a much smaller number of missions, compared to games like True Crime and the GTA franchise) and while having two time periods was an interesting idea, the second portion of the story, 2006, wasn't as impressive as that of the 1976 setting. The only good Driver story was that of the first game, which really made you feel like you were undercover & behind the wheel. I simply loved the fact that the first game took parts from good car chase films (Vanishing Point, The Driver, and Bullitt, to name a few), whereas the later Driver games abandoned the approaches of these good car chase films and went for movies that were worse.

The reason why the GTA franchise did better on the storyline was that it had a huge number of missions, the characters were more developed & interesting, the dialogue was pretty strong, and the storylines were taken as inspirations from the good kinds of movies (Boys in the Hood, Scarface, etc.).

Now, if Reflections takes away the storyline, which, in certain genres, isn't even present (sandbox games, much like The Sims, Tetris, and other simulation games don't even have a narrative), it could really help push much of the gameplay forward. And, if modding shows up, or, more likely, some editor features, like a mission or story editor, it could then help players create their own missions and storyline(s) to make something unique, as it'll be their own work. Furthermore, too many gamers rely on narrative, which doesn't make anything truly art (literature is where narrative derived from), as games also need to provide a unique artistic direction, as well as contain some innovative gameplay. Also, fine arts' element of self-expression must be done very originally by Reflections in order to truly deem this next Driver game as a work of art. If games always ignore all else, and believe that existent features to be improved as well as more complex narrative is enough then games will never reach the ways of fine arts. Movies used to be all about narrative and the really good narrative didn't show up until the very controversial movie "Birth of A Nation" (1915), but then movies weren't seen in culture as art until two famous film makers including Jean Renoir and Federico Fellini pushed the artistic style and self-expression forward. Games are following the same tracks as movies and won't surpass movies until they get past the stage of storytelling (right now, games are at the Birth of A Nation stage) and go also towards unique artistic styles (not only realistic, but even abstract styles) and with self-expression pushed further, while telling the truth of the world and what a developer thinks of the world (games about war can look more like real war itself, containing emotions).

quote:

Originally posted by FutureVenturer:
This is a question which I was thinking to myself when I believed that Reflections has no way to innovate nor build upon existing features as much as the rest of the competition, unless it drops something. And narrative is the answer. If they drop their own narrative, which, as was in previous Driver games (excluding the first), terrible, I think that this would help drive the freedom, car chases, and realism forward. Also, I know that narrative isn't too much of a significant part in open-world games, due to the fact that it is a usually linear experience (even for a non-linear game). Therefore, by sacrificing narrative for everything else, it's possible to create the Driver vision that we've always been waiting for.

Reflections can give us good user-created content to backup the loss of a story (create-a-character, create-a-vehicle, etc.). And modding can be added as a feature. Also, the driving experience can be taken to a whole new level. Think of the possibilities.

I'm with you on this one. The story of Tanner is okay at best, but the game's appeal is really about the driving experience, cause without great driving, the story doesn't make me want to play the series.

So either create a superb story, or abandon it for free form open world gameplay in the Test Drive Unlimited, Burnout Paradise, GT style. Those games don't need stories to be a success.

Game developers need to realize that all games don't require narrative. This is why my hope is that the Driver franchise will follow this path. Self-expression and a unique artistic style can, at most times, be the most important thing to create a true piece of art. Games stray too much from using self-expression (moods, messages, etc., anything that drives the inspiration of the game developer that helped make the game) and a brilliant art style (can be anything from realistic, to a cartoon, to even something out of the world, or abstract). Narrative has been used so many times in games that even licensed games have been able to capitalize on a specific genre. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is a really good example of what can be done with RPGs in terms of narrative while The Chronicles Of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay and GoldenEye show what narrative can do for FPS games. Narrative, of course, is not everything. Many times, it just limits the amount of directions a player can take in a game, which really lowers the replay value of a game. Games like Tetris, The Sims, and among several others prove that games do not need narrative. Narrative is just something to develop the characters further, but it doesn't have everything to do with self-expression, so a game that has no narrative, but is very addictive and unique does not need to worry about the inclusion of a story.

Eventually, games will need to be taken further than just narrative. Along the way, games will follow the same path as movies--they first were all about the narrative-- but they later became about the artistic styles and self-expression, which then truly helped make movies a part of many people's culture. Games can succeed in being a part of every future generations' culture within a few decades (as more people are born and live while experiencing & playing video games).

By having the Driver franchise take this direction, it can truly give birth to a whole new experience in open-world gameplay, should Reflections do it and make use of the capacity of the 360 & PS3's power, on doing both the quality & quantity well. As long as this helps make the AI greater, allows for many different possibilities within the world, brings one of the biggest vehicle rosters ever, and pushes the driving experience forward (car chases being the first thing to work towards), it can truly make for an experience which will leave everyone, even GTA fans (and Driver haters) in awe.

For me, it's all about the open world driving, finding a new path, hitting ramps, flying off cliffs, spinning out, getting into great chases. Unless the story is amazing, it won't add much to the gameplay other than as a distraction.

I played Mass Effect and while it was a nice storyline, it was a bit convoluted with all the detailed dialog and terminology and so on. When left to the gameplay, it wasn't that great of a game if you look beyond story and graphics.

I agree, gameplay MUST come before story for a great game. We're playing games first. Donkey Kong is a great arcade game, and where's the detailed story in that? Save the lady from Donkey Kong. That's it.

I didn't like many arcade old other old games and now I like them even less.

I choose Mass Effect over GTA:SA.

I know this is now a opinion debate. For me story is vital, only Super Smash Bros has achieved something extraordinary without actual story though it would be better with story, there is some backstory and impressions however. Super Smash Bros without familiar charachters would be a lot worse. If there's no story game really doesn't leave traces on me. Halo is way better than Timesplitters.

I have dreamed of perfect open sandbox combining GTA, Sims, Splinter Cell, Spider Man and so on, but story would made even it a lot better.

I don't think next few generations will make big enough "sandbox" games so I believe that if stories really are fading away I can finally stay with my current Xbox and wait 15 years for next console, or atleast as long as it breaks down. Especially if Online gaming and semi open worlds are the mix of future.

This is opinion and personal thing, but I really don't care whichever wins. Driver hasn't been that big I would want to see it no matter what. I don't see how Driver would magically improve by dropping the story, not worth the draw. Medium story>Few stunts

If you always depend on stories in every form of art (discluding fine arts, which really is only about self-expression). Games and movies do not always need to be having a storyline. In fact, games are the more dominant form of medium which does not require storylines. Video games are seen as many things. They're seen as forms of interaction. They're seen as more ways to communicate with storylines. And they're seen as electronic sports (or e-sports), which then makes games about competition, and this is done through lan or through online play. Also, games are seen as toys (in certain games that do not appear with storylines). Games can be seen as many things. As much as I feel storylines are important, they keep holding back developers from innovating and taking games to a new, if not entirely new direction. Self-expression is a very important factor in everything art, especially video games, but the problem with video games is that many people only look at their storylines, which is where sequels keep coming and coming, as opposed to whole new games which talented developers should decide to work on (not to be greedy like the game publishers, which only look for the money). If players and developers can look past storylines, and on to self-expression, they can create something very unique. This is where they can decide to include or not include a storyline. Regardless of anything, narrative should never be placed above self-expression (when a person expresses themselves in what they belief about the world). Self-expression is the key for game developers to push forth meanings and moods in games, as well as to innovate on gameplay, making sure to keep the game industry growing more with talent, and most importantly, closer to having everyone see it as art.

How would Reflection express Driver in a way they wouldn't need story? I don't see pencil moving on blank paper like on Wii or other new games. Guitar Hero, Buzz and other games are different, and I ain't exactly excited about them.

When I think about perfect Driver, I think:
-Long and smart story (As few cutscenes as possible)
-Interesting charachters
-Smart, challenging and different missions (Vehicle and on foot chases, fights...)
-Set of free, lively and beautiful cities
-Set of different vehicles, weapons, environments and people.
-Intelligent, realistic and personalized AI
-Solid gameplay and controls on foot, vehicle, water.
-Lots of interactivity, physics, radio, people, televisions, events, random missions.
-Extras like cheats, options, MP and Film Director
-Glitches and bugs reduced to zero
-Everything mentioned above used and visible in Free ride mode, Mini games and other modes.

I really don't see where extra self expression would pay off when we haven't seen perfectly solid Driver yet. It's "standard" game and there's a place for story. It doesn't have to exclude other uses of this game.

Chances are Reflections isn't going to jump into the storyless layout of Gran Turismo, so it's more than likely the story will return in the new Driver.

But will it be great? Looking back, DPL's story wasn't too bad, and I liked how TK was thrown in jail for 20 years or so, then got out in a new version of NYC. Don't see that often in games.

quote:

Originally posted by kalle90:
How would Reflection express Driver in a way they wouldn't need story? I don't see pencil moving on blank paper like on Wii or other new games. Guitar Hero, Buzz and other games are different, and I ain't exactly excited about them.

When I think about perfect Driver, I think:
-Long and smart story (As few cutscenes as possible)
-Interesting charachters
-Smart, challenging and different missions (Vehicle and on foot chases, fights...)
-Set of free, lively and beautiful cities
-Set of different vehicles, weapons, environments and people.
-Intelligent, realistic and personalized AI
-Solid gameplay and controls on foot, vehicle, water.
-Lots of interactivity, physics, radio, people, televisions, events, random missions.
-Extras like cheats, options, MP and Film Director
-Glitches and bugs reduced to zero
-Everything mentioned above used and visible in Free ride mode, Mini games and other modes.

I really don't see where extra self expression would pay off when we haven't seen perfectly solid Driver yet. It's "standard" game and there's a place for story. It doesn't have to exclude other uses of this game.

Anything is possible. This is why I feel that self-expression will be the best thing to drive Reflections forward. And if Reflections abandon narrative, chances are that its workers can help put together downloadable content, which can then provide some missions to do, which can be appealing to those who've been wanting the storyline in the first place. I don't see only the storyline as the problem, but the missions and the varieties in them is very lacking in originality. Sure, you may say that Reflections will likely not abandon narrative, but it can help itself be saved from unoriginality in its missions and story.

Yes, DPL was okay, but it didn't surpass D1 in terms of a story, and D2 and D3 were poor, so there is a 50/50 chance either that the next story will be poor, or it'll be good. If chances are that the next game will suck in its missions, storyline, freedom, car chases, and all those other things, I will not buy it, nor will I rent it. At that point, it may be worth nothing to me at all, but good to have myself check out as videos on YouTube, and nothing more.

Also, doesn't it concern you that licensed games may really soon reach the heights of games which are made on original games? LucasArts' developers are perhaps the most determined and capable of achieving something greater than that of most games today. As I mentioned earlier in one of my posts, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is considered to be one of the finest RPGs of all-time. It contains a battle system similar to that of Dungeons & Dragons. Also, if you look at the best games on all platforms by rating, on Game Rankings, you'll find that Knights of the Old Republic is the highest ranking RPG (more than even FFVII). This is because of its fantastic storyline and gameplay. I feel that licensed games should be the main ones to focus only largely on improving gameplay and on improving narrative while non-licensed games (Mario, Legend of Zelda, GTA, etc.) should move to innovation on gameplay, narrative, and self-expression. Therefore, developers non-licensed games may really need to step up more towards innovation, whereas licensed games and their developers can make a lot of money and improve mainly on an existing narrative. Also, when I look at self-expression it is the most important because we use it in our daily lives. We talk, sing, dance, play video games, read, draw, etc., which is all done for happiness. It is even healthy to have self-expression, especially towards oneself, or just when sharing it with others. How could narrative be placed as more important over how our opinions go, and about what makes us happy?

Isn't there enough room for self expression along those lines, what are you suggesting? Narrative is one of best self expression ways.

Downloadable content or any Online features needed for maxium game=>Not my thing, Halo would be lot better with less (none) online "requirements"

Some random missions<Finished Story. Sure random missions can work as activity but that's not the point of story.

You say Driver1 had great story and next ones had poor stories. Sounds like opinion to me. Just improving the on foot or AI could make story better. Not saying that there are 50/50 of succesful crime story.

Why should licenced games be lower than "real" games? It's really not a sign of quality or what game should be. KOTOR is great game considering both story and gameplay, yet it's not very free at all and I don't like the basic gametype. Godlike performance considering it has that big drawbacks.

Again seperating innovation and improving of gameplay and narrative seems bit

I'm completely supporting Splinter Cell Convictions new innovation as it seems to have all basics from story to stealth there. I don't know what that means.

Maybe I went too far in saying that licensed games should be lower than non-licensed ones, but for the most part, I do believe that licensed games will rarely ever innovate further than a non-licensed game. It'll be possible through new genres or whole new styles of gameplay, but that seems very rare for a developer to provide such great talents as this.

It's accurate to say that side missions are less wonderful than a story. I think that arcade games were the best in terms of side missions. However, sometimes a small arcade-like idea for a minigame/side-mission in a game could prove to be very innovative.

And yes, I did give my own opinion on the Driver franchise's quality of storylines, but I did support my opinion with enough evidence to say this. Driver: You Are The Wheelman showed a pretty nice, serious, and styled mood for its characters, locations, and missions, as well as its cut scenes. You couldn't call the voice-acting the best ever, but I do think it worked pretty well in terms of making it feel like the game truly was in the 1970s. And it did have some times when one line would be said for each character, so it's definitely not too notch acting. But you could really understand most of the story and the missions and cut scenes connected very well to give a picture of how it felt to be a wheelman working undercover in the criminal underworld. I especially liked the answering machine, which made get missions (or jobs) seem more realistic and helped push the narrative forward. If only the future Driver games could go back to this. I only express abandoning the narrative as an option, if Reflections can't go back to the old ways of the first Driver game, or if a person on the team thinks and says, "are you sure about this because it doesn't look too good." All I'm saying is that this is a viable option.

quote:

Originally posted by FutureVenturer:
Maybe I went too far in saying that licensed games should be lower than non-licensed ones, but for the most part, I do believe that licensed games will rarely ever innovate further than a non-licensed game. It'll be possible through new genres or whole new styles of gameplay, but that seems very rare for a developer to provide such great talents as this.

Midnight Club 3 and LA are licensed games, and are considered by critics as the BEST in Arcade Racing, earning 10's and 9's.

Do you say that they're licensed because DUB Edition has something to do with the games? I would personally have to say that due to the first two Midnight Club games not being licensed, the other ones aren't licensed either. They just have some existing things from the real world, nothing more. It's the same as having real advertising ads in a game, or in having any realistic technologies (weapons, vehicles, etc.).

Splinter Cell Conviction's storyline and gameplay, right now, can be nothing but skeptical. We don't know whether the game will actually push stealth further, or if it will fail. I'd save my high hopes for until after I am to see a review of the game. Otherwise, if I'm not happy with something, it can turn out as a disappointment in the end.

quote:

Originally posted by FutureVenturer:
Do you say that they're licensed because DUB Edition has something to do with the games? I would personally have to say that due to the first two Midnight Club games not being licensed, the other ones aren't licensed either. They just have some existing things from the real world, nothing more. It's the same as having real advertising ads in a game, or in having any realistic technologies (weapons, vehicles, etc.).

Splinter Cell Conviction's storyline and gameplay, right now, can be nothing but skeptical. We don't know whether the game will actually push stealth further, or if it will fail. I'd save my high hopes for until after I am to see a review of the game. Otherwise, if I'm not happy with something, it can turn out as a disappointment in the end.

MC3 and MCLA has real life license vehicles, Ducati, Kawasaki, Ford, Dodge, etc... Real vehicles.

On topic, if Driver abandons story, what's driving the action? It would be a giant free roam mode, and the critics would say, "Where's the story? Driver would've been so much better with one." But that's like saying Test Drive Unlimited needs a story, or Gran Turismo.

I seriously think Test Drive Unlimited is really bad influence for Driver. If Driver chooses that way then bye bye.

After 5 mins I started to think what next, I'm supposed to drive around island without meaning? Online is required for game to be enjoyable. Motorcycles are bad, physics are weak and cars don't get damaged, driving outside roads is horrible, there isn't pederestians and few cars, I only get fined and I can't exit vehicle.

Only nice things in it are the idea of free island, graphics, and in car views with windows and all. There isn't a lot cool in TD:U. Gran Turismo isn't really viable comparison.

They game would really be better with story.

My wish list:
1. Conviction
2. Oblivion
3. Dead Rising
4. Alan Wake
Someone could say they are sandboxy and innovative.

I guess I've got to be honest in saying that, yes, stories are and will be one of the most important factors in most games, discluding those non-games and god games. The problem is not that games focus on a story, it's that they may focus more than enough on it.

Another big problem is that most critics, especially such that review games, they tend to base that all on whether the quality will make it the worthy time and money for you. Recently, I've been able to read on a really good Game Critics article, which you can find here. It says how game criticism doesn't exist. Instead of only focusing on telling people whether games are your time and money, they should find a deeper understanding of art in their games, as Chi Kong Li, said.

The purpose of creating all these articles, which relate to self-expression, all along was, now that I think about it, to give us a message in that we should look to find a deeper understanding in each of our own games. It isn't, however, the purpose to look directly at its quality; it is just to understand an inspiration of a developer and to make connections to the world with the game, or anything else you can think of. Why can't we look deeper into the Driver franchise, but aside from it all being about the quality?

Well, I really don't look at reviews. Usually after I bought the game out of curiosity.

Developers should think and make what they really want. Then there will be self expression and quality in one package. And that's the best case, right?

I would consider Bungie one great example. They made Halo, Marathon, Myth as they wanted and ended them although even millions of people would want another. There's multi dimensional story, visuals, all sorts of unique approaches and other effort yet they ignore a lot of fan ideas. They use what they like and want, but don't add things just because many people want it. Sure, it isn't perfect company.

quote:

Originally posted by kalle90:
I seriously think Test Drive Unlimited is really bad influence for Driver. If Driver chooses that way then bye bye.

After 5 mins I started to think what next, I'm supposed to drive around island without meaning? Online is required for game to be enjoyable. Motorcycles are bad, physics are weak and cars don't get damaged, driving outside roads is horrible, there isn't pederestians and few cars, I only get fined and I can't exit vehicle.

Only nice things in it are the idea of free island, graphics, and in car views with windows and all. There isn't a lot cool in TD:U. Gran Turismo isn't really viable comparison.

They game would really be better with story.

My wish list:
1. Conviction
2. Oblivion
3. Dead Rising
4. Alan Wake
Someone could say they are sandboxy and innovative.

Yeah, the default motorcycle controls stink bad, but there's a method for seriously good bike controls, enabling the steering wheel option, then centering the sensitivity meter.

What to do next in an open world racing game, hmmm. How about drive fast, race, earn new rides, explore 1800 square miles, what to do, I don't know...

To say TDU has no purpose is looking past its racing theme. Of course a story defines characters, plot and purpose in a stronger way, if the gamer's looking for that kind of thing. And it's true, the Driver series has ALWAYS had some kind of storyline, so it's very unlikely it would solve anything without one, though I wouldn't mind, I play it for the action.