there's numerous ways to ensure safety. I'd still want to preserve the realism.

I really don't think the stick forces would be so extreme that they could break someones hand or finger, anymore than a high end racing wheel would.

There would still need to be precautions taken.
Infared sensors is one way, a lap belt, or even a safety grip to ensure the hand is tightly gripped. I've seen gardening tools or chainsaws with special grips that also act as a second switch to ensure the hands are in position.

Similar to the this, but with much less travel required, so that the hand can firmly grip the handle while the trigger finger or thumb can still be comfortable to use:

quote:

Originally posted by Eow_TK:
Thats true, just joking around. But I think these are very promising ideas for future developers.

ha..I know.
sometimes its good to have a laugh.

Another way to break up the monotony or rather dry conversation, is to insert a musical montage.
Dont let this detract from the nerding up that is going on here.


Now watch this video from the 80s.

Before CGI, there were stuntmen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXehSng0NV4
,

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Julian I have wondered if a stick could use something like a Wii setup to measure position?

It possibly could, if a moving part was always visible. Although encoders mounted on the force-feedback motors would probably be an easier solution. Monitoring motor current should be good enough to measure and limit the applied force also.

If the control circuit monitored and limited the angular speed, there'd be no need for any dead-man switches etc - if you let go of it, it would just drift to one side. Whilst the 'pilot' is holding it, it could ramp up the forces to the set maximum because the pilot wouldn't let it move too fast or far.

Originally, the thought i had came from using sensors that took a measure of weight and calculated it into stick movements. I still think it would be a pretty neat thing to have, if pilots had to rely on their actual strength to maneuver a plane properly.
Its not really a matter of the stick moving around so much as simulating the stick force required of the pilot.

Buffeting, and vibarations would be an added bonus to that, but really having anything exaggerated beyond that might not be necessary.

Buffeting is part of the feedback you really want, to know what is happening at the control surfaces.
MSFFB owners have posted here on having control feedback, it is a huge plus compared to not even without full forces.
With a regular stick you don't react until the view changes, with working FFB you know before then.

quote:

Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Infared sensors is one way

Had that on my Sidewinder 1 (and the Wingman Force before i scavenged it for parts) and hated it. It totally spoils immersion if the stick goes limp whenever you take off the hand for a quick adjustment of something else or even when you take a lighter grip position than "white knickle cramp". Luckily it could be solved by applying some tape over the sensor.

IS the FFB realistic though?What I mean is....does stick fall over if not held as a real plane does(resistance of linkage withstanding) and then tighten up as air speed increases?I would love to see that happen....maybe SOW?

quote:

Originally posted by wolf-striked:
IS the FFB realistic though?What I mean is....does stick fall over if not held as a real plane does(resistance of linkage withstanding) and then tighten up as air speed increases?I would love to see that happen....maybe SOW?

Yes, my Guillemot FFB does that. in 1946.

No forces at all when ready for takeoff. Gradually increasing forces when speed increases.

At high speeds, you can feel the much higher forces. Not so high that it 'locks up' though, you would need such a strong stick and powerful motors for that... one could break it if that were really so (stick locking up).

quote:

Originally posted by wolf-striked:
IS the FFB realistic though?What I mean is....does stick fall over if not held as a real plane does(resistance of linkage withstanding) and then tighten up as air speed increases?I would love to see that happen....maybe SOW?

I think the stick would only fall to one side if the plane were still on the ground. Otherwise, the air going over the control surfaces would hold the stick up, and only changing the position of the stick based on the air deflecting on control surfaces. It would be akin to how a racing wheel makes it way back to center on its own based on the momentum of the car. If you don't hold the wheel it has a tendecy to bobble from right to left, but if you are already going straight and fast there isn't any movement or deviation from center, if any at all to only simulate road vibration.

I think similar stick forces could be duplicated where at virtual no airspeed the sick would fall the one side, and under regular flight the stick forces would increase with the airspeed. Like i said before, i think more detail should go into the stick forces that the pilot would need to work against while flying a simulated plane. Modeling stick forces when the person lets go of it should be a secondary consideration, although if the FFB is detailed and accurate, i don't see why it wouldn't also mimic the outcome of hands off flight. If at the end of the project all the stick forces are detailed and accurate, and for whatever reason, letting go of the stick in midflight doesn't mimic actual circumstances that would be perfectly fine.

Indeed powerful motors could be used and very easily incorporated as a FFB system. Really just larger motors, and a stick that can width stand the forces pushing and pulling against it.

I would also incorporate an inter-changeable handle. Some people may want a jet or helicopter feel, while others may want a Spitfire design or even a WW1 type stick. If you are leaning toward gaming you may want more buttons on the stick for ease of use.
I'm surprised some of the higher end sticks aren't already doing this.



Bill

Why would the the real stick fall to one side? Is one aileron heavy and the other light?

The elevator may drop but I wouldn't bet the farm that's true on -all- planes. When looking at parked aircraft
be aware that the plane may have gust locks or the controls tied/bungeed down to prevent winds from damaging
linkages and surfaces. Otherwise side-to-side is wherever they were left.

late-model P-40 walkaround, note the elevators do hang down which is usual (if not universal, I can't say for sure).

So for P-40M's and likely all these warbirds (I won't say proved) the stick goes forward due to elevator weight
and balance. Probably need FFB to force that on landing in cases of obsessive-compulsion to perfect detail.

Yeah fellas thats what I mean.Not ailerons but elevator.When parked it should go forward.

You might be able to build or get a stick that requires 50+ lbs to pull all the way back at the right speed --but--
since you won't be pulling 5 or 6 G's while doing it you still can't say it's as hard as the real thing or even
simulating the real thing.
Nobody who flies for real is going to confuse the PC experience with real flight. Nobody who hasn't is going to
know the full experience. Watching porn is not going to teach a virgin what sex is like.

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
You might be able to build or get a stick that requires 50+ lbs to pull all the way back at the right speed --but--
since you won't be pulling 5 or 6 G's while doing it you still can't say it's as hard as the real thing or even
simulating the real thing.
Nobody who flies for real is going to confuse the PC experience with real flight. Nobody who hasn't is going to
know the full experience. Watching porn is not going to teach a virgin what sex is like.

I WON'T change my mind!

The future of joysticks lies with VERY heavy tension spring effect.This way we can run full linear settings and fly it without overcompensating.The hand can judge release of tension better than releasing 1/8 inch of travel.I am hoping that the Saitek will give some of this feel but after my experience with the Cougar I doubt it.Cougar was not what I expected.I can see someone coming from a CH stick thinking that its very heavy though.

And watching porn will teach you a massive amount of stuff.We learn by example so study up..... :P

Since I wrote: Watching porn is not going to teach a virgin what sex is like.
... just what does your reply have to do with that?

I'm not asking you to change your mind about joystick spring strength. If you want to fool yourself that sitting
in a chair at 1G and pulling "full strength" is more than a small step towards the real experience then go to it!

I doubt very much that the majority of future combat flight sim players will be using sticks requiring 50+ lbs of
pull due to the expense including whatever such a stick needs to be mounted on. Some will for sure just as some
do build partial to full sim cockpits. There's a guy in Greece who put the seat, stick, pedals and screen in a
motor controlled gimbal made of heavy gauge PVC pipe. He's only lacking the hydraulic legs and box to approach
full motion capability. I doubt that more than a small percent of players have the space let alone money to give
such things, the ones who do have the bucks get their realism by actually flying. It's a matter of priorities.

Kart racing is closer to real NASCAR than sitting behind a PC with the best gear you can get. The difference
between flight sims and flying is even larger.

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
You might be able to build or get a stick that requires 50+ lbs to pull all the way back at the right speed --but--
since you won't be pulling 5 or 6 G's while doing it you still can't say it's as hard as the real thing or even
simulating the real thing.
Nobody who flies for real is going to confuse the PC experience with real flight. Nobody who hasn't is going to
know the full experience. Watching porn is not going to teach a virgin what sex is like.

True, it will never be like real flying. For the cost of making a sim pit with hydros that could spin me around in front of a desk top, i would instead just spend that money to get my pilot license.

On the other hand having real tension on the stick can be a better indicator of a sim planes flight characteristics. It not only adds more realism, but it would also add another dynamic pitting pilot vs pilot. Not only by skill or type of craft, but by his physical capability and strength. It opens up a whole new avenue of competition not currently offered by today's flight sticks.
The other thing, as it stands now, stick pull is pre programmed into the game. The max pull in Il2 is 50lbs. I know i can pull more than 80lbs with both hands. So perhaps the advantage of owning such a stick would also let you get more performance out of your simulated plane, rather than whats pre-programmed for other users.

The size of the unit seems like a trivial matter. It could be bolted to a cross beam under the seat or even clamped to a desk. Realistically it probably would need to bolt to the cross beam that also attaches to a rudder set up. So planting your feet on rudder pedals also helps to support the rig.

You would be better able to judge the backforce that's for sure. No argument there.

You know... if the stick could pull the 'realistic' lbs force multiplied by the G's the maneuver is generating
then that might be closer to the real effort of the difficulty G's place on bodily movements.
At 5 G's it turns 10 lbs pull to 50 and 50 to 250 maybe you don't pull high G's and just hold it while working
the throttle and other controls at the same time, or typing chat. You would really need strength and stamina
to not just pull the weight but control the movements without exaggerated stick movement.
Good E-fighting is mostly about energy conserving lower-G maneuvers and tactics anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
At 5 G's it turns 10 lbs pull to 50 and 50 to 250

I fully agree with you that stick pull will never actually simulate flying and that more Gs will make everything a lot more difficult (including handling the stick) but i still have to remind you that you are confusing mass with force.

At 5 G's the force (N) equivalent with 10lbs at standard G is still the same force, because the stick is pulled by aerodynamic pressure on the control surfaces (which does not change because of Gs), not by the mass of the control surfaces (well, maybe a little on the elevators but that would be a pretty small fraction, otherwise the stick would not center once you get to speed).

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
You would be better able to judge the backforce that's for sure. No argument there.

You know... if the stick could pull the 'realistic' lbs force multiplied by the G's the maneuver is generating
then that might be closer to the real effort of the difficulty G's place on bodily movements.
At 5 G's it turns 10 lbs pull to 50 and 50 to 250 maybe you don't pull high G's and just hold it while working
the throttle and other controls at the same time, or typing chat. You would really need strength and stamina
to not just pull the weight but control the movements without exaggerated stick movement.
Good E-fighting is mostly about energy conserving lower-G maneuvers and tactics anyway.

Yeah, but i never understood stick force to also be multiplied by G force when flying. Part of the reason why the stick force adds up to 50lbs of force on some planes is because of a combination of G force and wind resistance. Most of it is wind resistance. I know that most of the force is lateral so the force would actually try to put your hands in your lap. Pushing or pulling the stick would not be working against any extra force, but you do bring up another interesting point. I think the G force will be what always separates a desktop simulation from reality. I think its possible to create and program the detail, and enough computing power to enjoy a close to life simulation but working G force into a desktop simulation would be near impossible with out building a Disneyland type of rig to ride on.

You could work those forces exerted onto the virtual pilot.There might be a way to simulate pilot exhaustion with a stamina bar. The more prolonged high G maneuvering you do the stamina bar begins to deplete. As it depletes your virtual pilot becomes exhausted and less responsive. Upon a rest period or low G flight, the stamina bar replenishes. I think that would be a better way than trying to create it around stick force. That is something separate of the stick and really could be created or modeled in any sim. Its just a matter of implementation.

quote:

Originally posted by BillSwagger:
There might be a way to simulate pilot exhaustion with a stamina bar.

Dangerously close to "air-WoW"

(while this is generally frowned upon i think some individual, changing, stats for the virtual pilot might actually be a very useful feature for people who fly with icons etc. on: better spotting skill -> earlier neutral icons on dots , better ID skill -> earlier display of army/type, better navigation skill -> more correct positioning on map..., of course useless for full real and still not directly useful for the rest, only when it would be used as either a survival incentive -at the cost of making aces even more superior- or, reversed, as a handicap system, bragging rights for the guy who gets the blindest, dumbest, greenest, weakest virtual pilot into the air)