Maybe use a fiberglass rod for the stick, it would have the spring built in?

quote:

Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Not sure how to describe this, maybe this is what you are already talking about, but what about the idea of using something similar to sensors on a digital scale.

Essentially the stick hardly moves, but it might be better to have some give and maybe load it with a very heavy spring, so at least it gives the feel of stick and not just this handle that you push and pull against. Pulling on it will compress on a sensor that measures how much force is being used. So it could give a measurement in grams or ounces, but instead the signal would go to the driver or software where the information is calculated into stick movements.

So if you can imagine taking a digital scale and pressing on it, the higher the number that shows, the further the stick movement would be.
This way would be more relative to forces achieved during flight. For example, in a game you could program 80lbs of stick force, which could be measured and calculated by this type of stick.
Currently in Il2, you might notice on some planes at higher speeds there is little elevator authority because the pilot is programmed to use 50lbs of stick force.
Imagine if the stick forces were measured by the actual strength of the players?
So maybe it takes 60lbs of stick force to recover a 109 from a dive, but if i'm able to pull 90lbs using both hands, the recovery might be much sooner than what the current engine simulates.

The other possibility with this stick is that regular maneuvers might only require 30lbs of force, while at higher speeds you might need more strength to get the same results. Trimming off forces would then be necessary or your arms would tire.


This type of stick is probably way ahead of its time, and would require gaming/sim developers to also work a format into their code that would allow the stick forces to actually be measured and used properly in the game, instead of having pre programmed stick forces like in Il2. Full real settings, could also mean full real stick forces.



Bill

Cougar with the f-16 force mod. Would just need a decent programmer to set it up for varying loads.

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I wouldn't know how to get a mouse to be seen as a stick axis.

that trick would have needed lots of quirky custom software (or maybe a smart glovie script could do it).

Now i simply use the bodnar/hall combination for the stick and IR voltage divider (rnzoli) and am happy with that. The FFB project will probably enter evaluation stage soon, so far i can only guess how it will turn out.

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Maybe use a fiberglass rod for the stick, it would have the spring built in?

I was thinking along those lines, but i remember when i was a kid, going to the arcade and always seeing that machine that had the guy you would arm wrestle. Remember that one?
You had to press against it, and it would still give some, but in order to win you had to really push against it. Of course with a stick, i don't think there could be counter forces, but some type of ffb system could vary the degree of strength needed in a manuever so it might actually represent the forces encountered in flight.
A spring would be the easy way, but if not a very heavy spring, then some other material that can bend in all directions while still maintaining its original shape. This would allow the base of the stick to flex some in all directions will still compressing the sensor.


I also don't know that such a stick would be ideal sitting or even being bolted to a desktop. If the forces are realistic then it would need to be placed between the players legs like an actual flight stick.



Bill

I would buy a stick like that if someone actually made it Bill. It would be interesting to play online, where part of your success might come from actual 'pilot' strength.

You could probably attach a trailer hitch receiver under the seat of a chair and build the stick onto an extender so it
can be removed on need. Then you wouldn't be trying to hold the stick with your legs and use pedals at the same time.

it could actually be mounted to the pedals and be adjustable to suit the comfort of the pilot.
edit: and whats to say rudder forces could not also be engineered the same way.


here is a pick of a mechanism, but getting proper forcefeed back calculations would we require software thats able to recognize how much the weight is offset by shifting the ball.

Non-FFB is more straight forward.






The way software works you could also have multiplier and dividers so the weight used in the game, could be double or half of the force you are using. This might mean that kids could still use the stick, or if playing with 50+ lbs of stick force became too tiring you could turn down the settings and use 10 lbs which would still be equivalent to 50 lbs in the game.

It does add to the idea of a full real setting.

Saitek's newest stick coming out will be like your describing.It has no movement and the stick registers the force.....like the mentioned Cougar F16 force mod.The thing is that many complained that no movement is terrible in a prop sim and its more suited for jet aircraft.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/523/saitekx65f.jpg

In my head a good gimbal setup would be rubber as the tension mechanism.Forward/back and left/right each have there own tough solid rubber piece that compresses to give resistance.At first it will be silly hard but overtime it will lossen up nicely.In order to make high tension with spring IMO you couldn't put this inside a tabletop joystick.

i don't see a tabletop stick being able to simulate actual stick forces, and if it were, it would be better placed between the legs of the pilot like an actual stick.

I was thinking floor mount, but being the way its designed it could mount to a center beam that attaches to rudder pedals.

A high tension spring would mean that the stick can pivot and shift as a normal stick would but the resistance would be felt as actual force because of the way the ball acts against the sensor.

Force feedback would shift the location of the ball as well as the sensor which would mean that additional tension would be felt from the handle of the stick.

Trimming might lock that ball in place, so you no longer had to apply force to keep the stick positioned there.
The result would be a stick that actually stiffens up in highspeed dives, or acts more loosely or sponge like when approaching a stall.

My drawing is not to scale, and depending on the amount of tension needed, you might actually have the ball located further way from the pivot point than the handle of the stick ends up being. in my drawing, i'm thinking the pivot point would need a gimbal or something similar to give the stick something to pivot against.
There might be a way to have separate springs for each sensor to flex against with out the need of a high tension spring above the pivot point, but i think there would be more give and better simulated tension with the spring at the base of the stick just above the pivot.
Table top sticks might be better suited with the latter, i just don't seem them simulating actual stick forces.


I think the way i'm visioning it is not easily detailed in a couple paragraphs.

Bill, trim doesn't lock IRL and you don't need to with a full length stick either. It just changes where the stick
would end up if you let go of it. In flight you hold the stick in place then crank in trim until there's no force
on your stick hand. If you were to hold the stick there and wind in nose up trim your would feel increasing force
against that hand. If you then let go of the stick it would move backward.
However since IL2 is programmed for non-FFB sticks the only feedback you get is relative to absolute center which is
not like real (above). Perhaps with a microcontroller and the right software you could get around that, maybe.

If you have a small local airport then you might convince a pilot to take you up and let you do some short simple
flying but be prepared to buy the gas and something extra besides. The right day and people and that can happen.
Look for notices of different attract-the-public events and your luck will likely be better around then.

This is where a need to for flight simmers to start headed for cockpit setups.Look at the advancements in racing sim hardware recently.The pedals are so realistic you need to bolt them down and have a hard rigid racing seat to apply the forces needed.FFB steering wheels are also being bolted down.

Flight sim hardware needs to catch up.Heavy tension sticks that have tabletop clamps built right in.Rudder setups that need cockpits etc...

Look at these homemade racing cockpits.We need to seek for "real feel".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T65CXTjYmU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...g14w&feature=related

This one is funny.Monday morning and people asking you at work how you broke your hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV_s3Xm9chI

I guess the stick i'm thinking of would be more for enthusiasts, although i'm also quite happy using just a table top stick.

The people that purchase the more expensive get ups and TIR would probably want something like this, and i'm probably not the first to think in this direction as far as "real" flight sticks go. The people who make these racing wheels are probably already thinking of something like this.

This stick would be well ahead of Il2, and probably better engineered for later sims to come. Like i mentioned before, some sort of format or code that is worked into the game to allow the stick to work properly off of forces. It might be very similar to a FFB frequency, but it could be capable of more detail cause you'd need to work the forces into the "ball" end of the stick that would tell the pilot he is approaching stall, or that buffeting is felt as he nears compressibility.

Trimming should be dialed in, but i said locking mechanism when i should've said something like establishing a new center point where the ball end is currently located.

Is that not how real trim worked, for example....you push forward on the stick to keep from nosing up. You then use the dial until there is no more force required to keep the stick in place. Or is it different than that.

I would probably need to fly a plane to really design something like this with pin point accuracy. I just think the whole force feedback dynamic could really be expanded upon if the proper format were developed and used. It opens up a whole new avenue of numbers for people to bitch about, but there are records of stick forces for different planes. I think it'd be a neat thing to have.

It might actually be kinda dangerous considering that a stick would have the ability to whip around simulating the forces actually encountered while flying. Should probably come with a warning. It would be no more dangerous than exercise equipment, so i would think it would still be possible to sell and market under similar safety precautions. You'd still need to idiot proof it.

Bring a cup damn that would suck!

i was thinking along the lines of a lap belt that had to be buckled while you sat in the chair. If it wasn't buckled, meaning you aren't properly seated, then the stick wouldn't register.

There's also other built in mechanisms that could be used to make sure the user is properly positioned.

I'm thinking of other products likes these racing wheels. They are sold and over engineered to be more safe than what would be necessary. Then modders get a hold of it and make it better, yet less safe. However, if they get hurt its on them and not the company that made it.

I really wouldn't want to sell something that could catapult a toddler through a window. Come to think of it, i don't think it would actually be that strong being that most extreme stick forces were in the range of 10 to 20 lbs. When i'm thinking of 50+lbs, that's the strength required of the pilot who might need to recover from a dive or pull an insane maneuver at higher speeds. The stick its self would actually be more stationary under those conditions, simulating resistance the pilot would need to work against. It would not be whipping around with 50+lbs of force.

Bill

Thats true, just joking around. But I think these are very promising ideas for future developers.

Bill if you connect the springs to the lower end of the stick at one end and solenoid each at the other then the movement
of the solenoid arm would vary the pressure of the spring on the stick. Pressure/strain sensor could fit anywhere, even
strain gauges on the stick itself would work and allow a little smaller base.

Most any conducting material conducts differently when under strain. A very low voltage current flowing through that to
the base of a transistor can easily control current flow in a stick port (or BU chip) setup. That's the principle that
solid state scales work under, the actual movement is so small that it's practically nothing.

Solenoids... wouldn't have decent pinball machines without em!

PS -- much more power than solenoids and I think you might need pneumatics or hydraulics.

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:

PS -- much more power than solenoids and I think you might need pneumatics or hydraulics.

I'd want to avoid the use of heavier equipment. I'd go with compressed air and an electric air pump/compressor as a hydraulic system, but i'd still look toward electric motors with higher torque or gearing capability first. They make pretty strong motors like those used in larger electric drills or a drill press, but proper gearing would be essential to allow for higher torque.

It might not even take that large of a motor if it used four motors working as a push/pull on both axis.

I would need to see inside a FFB stick to get some ideas so it could be a beefed up version of a FFB table top stick.

quote:

Originally posted by BillSwagger:

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:

PS -- much more power than solenoids and I think you might need pneumatics or hydraulics.

I'd want to avoid the use of heavier equipment. I'd go with compressed air and an electric air pump/compressor as a hydraulic system, but i'd still look toward electric motors with higher torque or gearing capability first. They make pretty strong motors like those used in larger electric drills or a drill press, but proper gearing would be essential to allow for higher torque.

It might not even take that large of a motor if it used four motors working as a push/pull on both axis.

I would need to see inside a FFB stick to get some ideas so it could be a beefed up version of a FFB table top stick.

A tabletop stick will be limited by the table it is on and its mounting to that table. Hope the PC and monitor are
mounted on something else if you want to drive much push. Stall buffets, going transonic, takeoff roll vibration
on rough fields, things like that wouldn't be good for a spinning DVD drive just to mention one part. Better stick
to the integrated with pedals setup?

Compressed air is pneumatics. Hydraulics uses fluids. And solenoids are straight line versions of electric motors.
The first two involve seals but let you put the motor part away from the application. Solenoids don't. Still the
airhammer type parts available off the shelf do have their attractions don't they?

A 24V solenoid can deliver a very powerful kick and can also reverse fast enough to vibrate but will generate a
good bit of heat if it has to hold extended for long. IIRC 12V solenoids are what you see in pinball tables,
still a bit of drive.

Now if I have a 60-lb per inch compression spring and a solenoid behind it capable of 1 inch of movement and 60 lbs
push and hook that 2 inches below my very strong gimbal then a hand 6 inches above the gimbal could get 20 lbs push.
They do make industrial die springs -much- stronger than 60-lb per inch btw. With the right forces and leverage a
1/4 inch travel can do the job.

If you sell something strong enough to break a wrist or finger then expect to get sued for big money no matter how
many warnings you slap on or release forms you collect. Law has nothing to do with facts, it's all about money and
politics.

If the stick monitored it's position, it could monitor and limit its force-feedback induced movement speed to safe levels, hence no catapulting toddlers, and no stick slamming into your hand with any considerable inertia.

A user setting could choose the maximum force to be applied also.

This kind of stick would only be for quite serious simmers though, you'd have to either bold the stick base down, or mount your chair on it.

Julian I have wondered if a stick could use something like a Wii setup to measure position?