I have been watching flight stick development for awhile now and still see that a truly realistic feeling tabletop based joystick is out of reach.But I really feel that I know how to counter the issues that plague short throw joysticks.

Yrs back in racing sim community I was telling people that what we needed was to shorten the throw of the brake pedal dramatically and to stiffen it up an unbelievable amount to get the feel we needed.This gives the feel of a brake pedal but now you only use a small percentage of a pots rotation.SO I suggested that one now needs to add in gearing so that the highly reduced throw of the brake pedal moves the potthru its whole range.Well every top-end pedal set uses this principle now and the feel and accuracy of these brakes are simply AMAZING!

Now onto flight sticks.While the move to long throw joysticks is being done you dont actually need to do this.If one can engineer a gimbal that has very high(!!!)forces acting on it then problem is solved.Stick will need to be mounted on to a very stable heavy desk but its better than having a joystick with a huge throw that now needs much reduced stick forces to work properly since its very hard to make a gimbal that is has heavy tension and moves a very large amount.The reason being that if the tension is hard to move stick from dead center then imagine what it will be like moving stick 6 inches.

What the very high resistance short throw stick does is to give a tactile "feel" so that the highly wanted ability to do minute adjustments becomes very easy.....this due to fact that its easy to release a small amount of pressure than it is to move a joystick back a certain amount by mind memory alone.

Any thoughts on this?

Do you mean a 'force sensing' stick, like this?:

http://www.saitekusa.com/prod/x65f.htm

Aviar

No,I believe you need some movement.Think a regular joystick movement.


For the ultimate setup....say joystick moves 1 inch backwards.Now increase joystick tension so that the last 1/2 inch you need to use two hands.From dead center its very hard to just move and as you start pulling back it gets very tough!This would have to be installed into a cockpit where you could brace your feet against the rudder pedals to pull back.The problem is the fact that at slow speeds the sticks is loose in real life but I feel this would give you one heck of a ride flying the edge in combat.

But realistically for desktops I would think a lot less tension to movestick.But this has to be increased 10fold from what we have now.I tried a Thrustmaster Cougar one day and was expecting what I have in my head and was sorely disappointed.Its very easy to move and while it has the myth of being a high tension joystick its not what I mean.

Another area that would be kool is realistic trim built into the gimbal since flying for awhile and reaching combat your arms will be burning up and you wouldn't be able to fight anymore. By realistic trim I mean that when you move the joystick back 1/4 inch and turn trim knob till tight and release the stick....it now stays 1/4 inch back from dead center.

Another thing and very VERY important that a high tension stick gives is ability to do a totally linear curve response on the joystick.This will allow you to pull back on stick to get some lead and release some tension slightly to just lower the nose down a tad.Non-linear stick setups cause the porpoising you see in combat sims that wouldn't happen in real life.

If you just use a higher resistance pot then you won't need gearing! Normal axis range is 0 to 10k ohms, try a 50k or 100k!
LOL!

The gearing is for racing sim brake pedal not a flightstick.The reason for the gearing is that to get the feel of an accurate brake pedal you need to have a brake pedal that moves at most 1/2 inch...not the 2+inches regular walmart brake pedals move.So the gearing now will move the pot thru its whole range of motion from just 1/2 of actual pedal movement.

http://www.cannonsimulationtechnologies.com/


Another area super high tension works wonders is in steering wheels.I begged and pleaded with one developer to make a system like this and he kept telling me people want no notch in center position of wheel.

Here are my findings on that.Yrs back I had thrustmaster T2 wheel.One day I took it apart and found a bungee inside.So I started experimenting and stumbled upon the sweetest feeling simulation device I've ever experienced.The tighter I got the bungee the more realistic it felt.I got to a point that I was using a vise grip to leverage the bungee out as far as possible and then putting a huge bolt to prevent it from entering back into hole.The bungee was stretched so tight that the feeling only lasted for 3 minutes where the bungee would just give and even though it was still tight it lost its magic.I was like a junkie coming home with a new bag of bungees everyday and doing 10-3 minute sprints until all the bungees were gone.

Every friend of mine who sucked at grand prix legends tried it and were all amazed at how it transformed the game.I would let them try it with normal bungee tightness and then my modded super tight feel and they all would say it feels like a real car.

The benefits were many.First is using totally linear steering which is so precise in how small increments makle car react.Second is ability to nudge a car over to an inch away from the road drop off at 200+mph and keep it there.And if anyone knows how hard the GPL cars were braking into a turn then this was a masterpiece.I could enter a turn slamming on brakes and just release the wheel which would return to center and NEVER go past.If i started entering in opposite lock which I felt so easily since moving the wheel from center was a job in itself I could ease off the brake slighlty preventing the rear from coming around on me.Sadly this only lasted for the above mentioned 3 minutes and then dam bungee would wear out again.....still tight but not that perfect tactile response anymore.Sadly nowadays its all FFB and this will never come into effect.

Also this 1/2 inch of travel with super high tension and then fed thru a increasing gear steup to a pot was laughed at and ridiculed for a long time in past.Now all the top pedal sets use this method.

i've often thought of the same thing.

My stick is spring loaded so it always pops back to center on its own. I've thought of trying to get a higher tension spring to put in there just to see how it would feel.

How is force feed back different than what you are describing?

FFB is a notchy mess.Thats my opinion though as many love it so....What I am describing "might" be amazing.I say might since while the steering bungee experiment opened my eyes to high tension for tactile response in racing sims.....doing this to a joystick is impossible unless a system is built from ground up.

The developer of racing pedals I mention in last post stumbled onto same finding as me.He said that the tighter he made the pedal the more real the game became until he needed to build a steel cockpit that wouldn't budge even a fraction of an inch to get the tactile response the pedals allowed.He was ridiculed on the forums for months on end.Sadly I think he went too far in that no one wants to get burning sensations in their legs while sitting at home playing a racing sim....though he still does sell them.The company is called Nixim

http://www.nixim.com/main.html

The closest I ever got to a workable joystick system was when I removed the actual joystick handle from my logitech so that only a stub was sticking out from the base.Then I flew around using my fingers instead of my hand to move the stick.This made it higher tension but it needed alot of work.I must say that my combat fighting in warclouds back then increased alot when i did this from day one.But it was notchy and the logi joystick didn't have two seperate tensions for aileron/pitch.

but it could be as easy as just adding a higher tension spring to give the same effect. Obviously more hardware engineering would be needed to separate tension along the different axis, but that seems to be the quickest solution. Now i'm thinking of digging through my garage to see if i have a spring i could fit in my logitech.

No gears are needed.A joystick already has a short throw.Maybe using less throw would be better but it needs experimentation.

Yrs back I had talked to the guy who makes the gimbal NXT for the cougar.He was gonna make a special one that had a short finger joystick built on it so that its flow with the fingers only instead of a hand to increase its tension.Not a very high tension joystick that needs to be bolted onto a desk but would probably feel sweet.I nevergot around to trying it sadly.You would need to build a base from scratch to house the gimbals.Firing would be done with your thumbs etc...

quote:

Originally posted by Tuphlandng:
By gears I mean to say that the more movement in the stick the greater the force. You could adjust your tension and gears would last longer and be more reliable then springs.

Just using a very strong spring would suffice.Strong enough so that you have a very strong center detent.This center detent will alow you to put the linearity to fully linear....which makes for needle like precision....and the super heavy tension will allow you to use this precision with precision.

What you need is a non-linear spring. You can approximate the response of a nonlinear spring by using 2 or more linear springs of differing stiffness, and putting them in series aka end to end.

Actually a spring is already variable resistance.The springs in joysticks are so light you cant get the tactile feel of increasing tension though.

http://www.engineersedge.com/spring_comp_calc.htm

EDIT----I think???

Edit-2---yes a normal spring gets stronger when you compress further.Think of a pogo stick.When you step on it it slightly compresses.If the tension never changed then you would step on it and it would keep compressing but stops at a certain point where the strength overcomes your weight.

LOL! The mechanics are there for tensioning -- a stronger pot gives more resistance for shorter move. An axis is
an axis regardless of what it's used for, you match the pot (or hall sensor or other) to your mechanics and not the
other ding-a-ling way around! If they use more mechanics it is for feel, not just because they can't figure out how
to find a pot that has the same range of resistance with shorter throw.

The upshot is that you -can- modify your pedals to work just fine with 1/2" movement. Step one: replace the pot.

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
LOL! The mechanics are there for tensioning -- a stronger pot gives more resistance for shorter move. An axis is
an axis regardless of what it's used for, you match the pot (or hall sensor or other) to your mechanics and not the
other ding-a-ling way around! If they use more mechanics it is for feel, not just because they can't figure out how
to find a pot that has the same range of resistance with shorter throw.

The upshot is that you -can- modify your pedals to work just fine with 1/2" movement. Step one: replace the pot.

Why does this always happen.Some peeps that don't see the idea and say other random stuff.A pot adds no resistance to a joysticks travel...this is accomplished by a spring in the joystick.

Also...then why are the high end pedals using gearing with short throw brakes?

i'm not sure how extensive you are thinking, but what about an air bag/ pump instead of a spring.

When you pump up a tire, the resistance is felt as the pressure increases. Too much pressure, let some air out. Not enough, press the pump.

Sort of like the Nike Air of Joysticks. lol

I'm not sure how pratical it could be, but considreing they can fit similar engineering into a basketball shoe that takes its fair share of abuse, similar mechanics can be used in building resistance into a joystick.

I'm sorry for making you think I was working on building this.I cant build anything as I have noaccess to a workshop or tools.I just wanted to point out where I feel the current trend is going and where I think it should be headed.

I found a post from nixim from 2004 where he mentions me and how I understand how the pedals work(i'm dprieto).

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=182994

If you read down further you'll see how ridiculed the guy gets.Theres always peeps that jump in claiming an idea is crazy.


Heres an "interesting" comment from the old man himself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to say SB, I think that is the best post in this thread so far, you have it in a nutshell my friend, - though I have to say that I do have engineering qualifications - which would go some way towards explaining how I came up with the Converter as a solution to a percieved problem.

and that problem was, - "how to make a realistic feeling brake".

The answer turned out to be a series of steps in the build up of the Converter, as I completed each stage I analysed the feel by driving for a month or so, before moving on to make an alteration which would lead to an improvement in feel. - a very long and discerning process.

Let me say at this point, that it took about four years to complete the Converter, - but also what we have in the Converter is something that looks nothing like my original idea.
After three years I decided that all the work I had done up to that point, though it worked fairly well - I realised that I was never going to acheive perfection with that particular idea - so very reluctantly it literally went in the bin.

However, I had gained a lot of usefull knowledge in those three years, and I put it to good use in the present form of the Converter. - And all the development work was done with Grand Tourismo on PS2.

Did you know? if you use a wheel and pedals to drive GT3 - then there is about 33% deadzone in the brake before braking had any effect on the car, no? - neither did I - until the Converter pointed this out to me, I shall explain.

A real car brake feels solid and precise in use, That was easily achieved by the use of steel components, and in the first stages thats all that the Converter had, - a good solid pedal returned to rest by a strong spring, now don't get me wrong this was already a vast improvement over the standard logi peds and for a short while I thought that I had cracked it - I thought I had made for myself, the perfect brake, - but!, after a while I started to have doubts,
Being self critical, I began to feel that it still was'nt quite right.

What was it? I asked myself, - and then I realised that real brakes have a dead zone and once you are through that dead zone the brake return pressure increases at an increasingly rapid rate as you further depress the pedal.
My pedal did not feel like this, and no matter how stiff the spring I fitted, I could always press to the full distance of the pedal throw, - not really realistic.
Also about then, I became aware of the 33% deadzone in GT3.

I then had to figure a way of telling me by "feel", - exactly when the car actually started to be effected by the brakes, and it was then that I hit on the idea of the "Dynamic stops" or "D"stops.

Now not only by placing the D stop(s) in the right position behind the brake pedal lever, - can you feel the exact point at which the brakes start to effect the car, it also gives a back pressure which is identical to a hydraulic system.
I also found that now, with a D stop in place I could use a much lighter return spring, which again further improved the feel.

Further refinements, - included using different shape, sizes, density, and number of D stops, along with an infinite adjustment capability, not to mention also changing or altering the tension of the preload springs.

I realised that I had far surpassed what I had originally expected to acheive, and when I felt the effect of this in GT3, where I felt at the time I had stumbled almost on the perfect answer to FF (sorry Roger) for a brake, - I swear I was so happy I had tears in my eyes.

I could feel the precise point of pad/disc contact, and a perfectly natural feeling brake after that, and it could be tailored to anyones taste, or to any driving game - and on any platform (providing the game supported a wheel and pedal set).

Now to answer your question a little more pointedly SB.-

quote:

Originally posted by wolf-striked:

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
LOL! The mechanics are there for tensioning -- a stronger pot gives more resistance for shorter move. An axis is
an axis regardless of what it's used for, you match the pot (or hall sensor or other) to your mechanics and not the
other ding-a-ling way around! If they use more mechanics it is for feel, not just because they can't figure out how
to find a pot that has the same range of resistance with shorter throw.

The upshot is that you -can- modify your pedals to work just fine with 1/2" movement. Step one: replace the pot.

Why does this always happen.Some peeps that don't see the idea and say other random stuff.A pot adds no resistance to a joysticks travel...this is accomplished by a spring in the joystick.

Also...then why are the high end pedals using gearing with short throw brakes?

Some day you may learn some basic electronics. Amps, Volts, and Ohms. Ohms are the measure of Resistance to Current
flow as by Ohm's Law; Current (Amps) = Potential (Volts) / Resistance (Ohms).

Standard digitizer circuits run a flow of current through the sensing device (stick, pedals, whatever) to charge a
capacitor and then bleed that off while timing how long it takes, the time is the analog of how much Resistance the
device made to the flow which is analog to the position of the handle or whatever of the sensing device, aka the brake
pedal. Standard digitizer circuits including the analog PC stick/pedal ports in most sound cards (and the BU-chip
device used in better homebuilds) wants a range of 0 to 10,000 ohms Resistance which btw is Electrical Resistance and
not how hard the pot is to turn. There are pots that run full range in 1/4-turn to 10 or more full turns and a huge
range of maximum values.

If they have gearing then it is for feel unless they perhaps don't have any even-half-competent EE's on staff which
is -very- hard to believe.

You trying to use pedal mechanics as proof of a need to turn a pot full range with less foot travel is a deduction
and me telling you there is no need for that is simple fact and not random at all.

Even from a surplus house you can find a wide range of pots, try DigiKey for even more.

I'm a high school dropout and though I am not proud of that I must add i do know about ohms,voltage etc.

Charging a capacitor......are you ok?A pedal is a simple pot that measures how far you push the pedal.There is no charging of a capacitor....why would you need to hold a charge and release.A pot is just a variable resistor.When you move the pot the resistance changesWOW.The game measures the change in resistance and with that info it knows how much you moved the pedal.

Fella,no change to a different pot will add "feel" to a joystick.The feel is all done by the mechanical side of the joystick....aka the spring/springs.

Thats crazy if you are studied in electronics and can't understand that.

quote:

Originally posted by Tuphlandng:
When you posted this I thought wow some one is thinking the same thing. I myself know nothing about electronics except real basic stuff. What I do now is mechanics and Hydrolics. I have a dislike for my wheel brake combo because it doesn't feel real at all. When you used the example of the brake pedals I thought pay dirt.
I am sure you know this
The pressure oplide by the foot creates energy to a mechanical pedal *** wich is then turned into hydrolic energy transferred by your brake lines then turned back into mechanical energy. The control in braking is acheavd by the deference in pressure by your foot once the dead zone is passed,pre-load, then the more you press the greater the energy transfer and the faster the vehicle slows down. the greater the speed the greater the force is needed so we press harder. The resistance that we feel has to do with the speed and weight of the vehicle.


With that train of thought is where posts came from. control serfices speed and weight = resistance


"I'm sorry for making you think I was working on building this."

That's OK I can live with a soggy joy stick

Buy a logitech G27 wheel and install a nixim brake mod.The Nixim brake mod is just a piece of very stiff rubber that you put inside of the brake spring that adds a very progressive feel to the brake.brake mod only cost around $15.00 dollars.

Thats a really good setup right there for around $300.00 dollars.

quote:

Originally posted by Tuphlandng:
Or inside each other

Negative, that won't work.