Then again...I use a TiR,CH fighterstick,rudder pedals,a saitek throttle quad,a 22" monitor,and I still suck bigtime.I know plenty of people using the hatswitch and a cheap twisty stick that are real aces online.There is a guy in online wars who flys with a mouse and keypad.He is at least as good as nearly everyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by fabianfred:
Good posts unknown-pilot.... I like your thinking and agree that most of the Full Real BS is just ego...
and a lot of people taking a GAME far too seriously.

Full Real BS? Now now.... I'm with Gadje here. If the ability to actually be able to surprise an enemy, people having limited situational awareness in general, longer distances and more often than not objective based missions and people actually working together(very often replicating real life tactics) is just "BS", simply boring("oh noes, nothing has happened for 10min, what is this ****??") or just more realistic, deeper and therefore way harder to master and in that more fun than the simple, repetetive arcade deathmatches of Skies Of -servers people here often prefer?

I dont get people who say they dont play without external views and icons because they cant see the contacts. In il2 the dot size at 1024 x 760 in 17" screen seen a meter ago matches real size... Yet I have absolutely no trouble seeing planes that fly NOP over water/grass(anything but forest or city) from 7000m and a fair angle... This was called by the Luftwaffe pilots as "battle blindess" - inability to see and follor other aircraft because wrong search pattern and knowledge on where to look for. The pattern a pilot, virtual or real, looks around him, is different between a veteran and a beginner. A beginner's sight stays too long around details somewhere before too quickly looking around all the other area, while a veteran effectively scans the sky completely, not too quickly but without looking long anywhere.

You cannot learn it if you dont do it. One or two tries of "FR" isnt enough. And controllers or other equipment are no excuse! I personally play with stick, pedals, mouse and keyboard... TIR or 6DOF are definately not required, nor are throttles or even pedals, if one has a twisting stick.

If flying isnt easy in real life why should it be in game? FR is completely a differentgame from silly arcade matches and real flying is even more difficult in every possible way. Just deal with it... I do, however, think that everyone can learn the basics of FR, spotting contacts, navigation etc. in max a week or two. Its more a matter of attitude than hardware, so called "game limitations" or anything else.

quote:

Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by doraemil:
4.09m here.

It's funny, I can't land, bomb, rocket or strafe to save my life while in wonder woman view. I ALWAYS crash and (burn) into the ground.

I realized I need a point of reference to the ground (cockpit), so I must have the cockpit on to land or strafe.

Same thing with judging closure times w/out icons, I can do it better with the cockpit as reference.


However wonder woman does allow me to make some pretty neat deflection shots.

I think its a balance here . . . yet one cannot dispute some of unknown pilot's sentiment.

IL-2's dated graphics quite aren't as great as RL vision.

AND not everyone has the PC power to run at full graphics, like with me, I see black dots until 1 km, then pixels up to .5 km. Then something recognizable after that.

I suppose that will all be fixed in BOB SOW's improved graphics.


And I saw track IR (my friend just got it for his FPS). He did a comparison of playing with and without it. His kill ratio with went through the roof. Oh man I can't wait to get it for IL-2. I thought it was just as good as the mouse scrolling view. But its way better and frees up a hand.

As for equipment . . . it does make a difference.

The POV hat is a joke for looking around. The mouse is alot smoother but requires one hand.

Twist joystick rudder coordination with the stick is lame vs actual rudder pedals.

Compare to a HOTAS guy + track IR, pedals, and mic w/ team speak vs a single joystick guy with POV hat and twist for rudder.

the HOTAS track IR dude will smoke the twist joy dude any day in regards to flying and communication if both are equally skill / equal pc / connection etc.


Maybe a middle ground, set up servers that have icons limited out to 1-2 km with full cockpit. That way you can see the dots, at distance but not know who they are until 1 km, which would simulate RL vision for those with weaksauce PC's and IL-2's aged graphics.

That said,

anyone can learn to fly and deal with full realism regardless of PC or equipment.

im aiming 4 fr myself

Ok, now, bearing that in mind - full zoom is the most realistic representation of view angle in terms of object size. That is to say, when you blow it up to "life size" the amount of area that you can actually see is very small (look around in full zoom, you'll see what I mean). In order to see more of the world around you, to take at least SOME of the blinders off, you have to "zoom back", shrinking everything to fit on your tiny screen. And then even more-so in order to have a better look at your instruments.

For seeing cockpit 1:1 perhaps, but the dots... Are you sure? Whats your source?

quote:

This is just a PART of what I mean by "limitations of the interface" (the interface being our PCs, keyboards, monitors, joysticks, etc - how we interact with the virtual world).

This is compounded by the fact that the joystick responds differently in each zoom level, being most (even overly) sensitive in full zoom, causing all motions to be exaggerated.

It does not..

quote:

Now, if we combine all that with resolution issues - I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still stuck at 1024x768. When IL2 first came out I was actually running at 800x600. However, even at 1600x1200, it's still **** poor compared to human vision.

What that means is, we have to get FAR too close in the game under full switch to ID planes, compared to how close the real pilots actually had to get.

Funny, I can identify fighter sized planes typically about 3km away?

quote:

Now for Padock.... there again, assuming no mods and generic hardware, you are limited twice over. Firstly, as you pointed out, POV hat or mouse, well, you can't control your throttle, or maintain good view control.

Oh yes you can...

quote:

Compare that to someone with a Cougar, like me, who can control the view with their microstick on the throttle... If I were to insist on no PL and accuse the other guy of being too weak or lazy to "step up", well... I think we could see what's really going on (I'd have an advantage I'd be trying to protect - pure self interest, and nearly "cheating" through hardware in a sense by intentionally tilting the metaphorical playing field).

But it goes further - remember, without mods, or even WITH mods but no TiR, your virutal neck is welded to the headrest - no 6DoF means you can't move around the cockpit to get around obstructions. This is intensified by the lack of stereo-scopic vision (as it's a 2D screen).

How much do you think a real pilot could tilt his head? Think about a 109 pilot for example. We're talking about centimeters, especially as the pilot is practically bolted to his seat, unable to move to be able to sit where he is during the maneuvering as well... There was no 6DOH style pushing face to the canopy and checking low six...

quote:

In fact, you don't even have to map a ke
In fact, you don't even have to map a key for it, let alone use it if you don't want to. So people who act high and mighty about it, and who turn it off on servers are simply trying to take advantage of the hardware limitations, both innately, and of any advantage they might have over more casual (or poor) participants. It's rather sad actually, and very unfortunate.

Hardware is no limitation. One of the best Il2 players I know flies using his mouse as a stick and has no TrackIR. And he flies full real only...

Yes, it IS attitude.... yours. And ego. Also yours.

If you're such a great manly pilot that likes a challenge, then... challenge yourself, fly on the servers you belittle and treat it just as if you were on your full switch (which once again are NOT full real, actually quite the opposite).

But you don't.

You have just proven in your post what I've said, you want to hide in the limitations of the interface, and exercise a hardware superiority over others. Which actually illustrates that you aren't that great, because you need those circumstances to achieve anything.

As for the rest - open your mind as well as your eyes, read and understand what is written. Look PAST your ego about full difficulty and don't let it hang you up when you see us point out the fact that it is artificially more difficult than it should be, leading to a LESS realistic [u]experience[/u].

To that end, once again, I reiterate - LIMITED icons representing only what could actually be seen if it was real. I'm not going to repost all the reasons why it's not, because you chose to ignore and blow all that off for the sake of your ego - drop that and re-read it until you understand it.

Finally - prove that having only JUST properly limited icons and PL provides anyone with omniscience and removes an ability to suprise.

You can't do it. You just feel that way because of ego (when you really get down to it).

quote:

Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Hardware is no limitation. One of the best Il2 players I know flies using his mouse as a stick and has no TrackIR. And he flies full real only...

See? More ego driven BS.

If he flies "full real", then he flies with limited icons and PL on. Period. Otherwise he flies "full switch".

Did you have to have your houses doors widened? Seriously.

BTW - I suppose we can claim that smoking doesn't kill since George Burns lived into his late 90s, still performing and smoking cigars every night. Because that is the essence of your "argument" there.

U-P, you truly are clueless, you know.

Guys if I may... why so heated debate?

This issue isn't so hot... we all have our preferences, IMO it doesn't matter the settings it is a good time with the game that matters.

More realistic, less realistic... it can all be argued, but in the end makes no difference. Fly what you want.

The problem is that I haven't come across a 'Full Real' Server as such.. most FR servers have limited Icons, but I turn my icon indicators off anyway.

For those who say it's ego/BS/Not Full Real...

Ego :- Maybe in a way, but we've practised/flown more this way, so we're better at it, and the tactics needed to survive this mode of flying.

BS :- You should try some of this BS

Not Full Real :- Definitely closer to RL than what you might think, try it and feel the stress factors kick in, and the exhiliration of surviving.

NB: I still fly with my hat-switch... It's like flipping through a comic book..

quote:

Originally posted by K_Freddie:
The problem is that I haven't come across a 'Full Real' Server as such.. most FR servers have limited Icons, but I turn my icon indicators off anyway.

Try spits vs 109s, they run full real. Assuming your ping is okay, that is.

In any case, "full switch" is IMO more realistic because it's actually possible to pull off a bounce and/or to escape.

In servers where externals is enabled, you get people using F6 to increase their SA dramatically, and CTRL+F2 to see where people are, what altitude they're at, etc etc. All of a sudden you magically become aware that you're the highest aircraft on the server and now you don't need to watch for contacts higher than you. Is that realistic? No.

Furthermore, if externals are enabled you can't hide in clouds, can't escape by avoiding detection (i.e. hiding by flying low over forests) etc.

On top of that, some aircraft had a visibility advantage IRL. For instance when externals or wonderwoman are enabled you can't sneak up behind and below a 109G2 or G6 early, or a corsair, or a bunch of other aircraft because their blindspots magically disappear.

Still think it's "more realistic" if you don't fly full switch?

Let me offer apologies for my flippant comment.

We all have our preferences in game play modes, as in all other things in life. Variety is good.

I do prefer "full switch" to other forms online because of the increased challenges it offers. If it is, or is not, a better representation of real life is not an issue for me. After what, eight years of this going back to the settings of the old days, icons, padlock, external views, etc... is just too easy in a way. Or rather a different challenge, and one that I just don't enjoy anymore.

To each their own.

Carry on.

Having flown against Gadje (and his squad mate Mikester ) several times in 2 Vs 2s and been easily beaten Id say any 'implied' (by Unknown Pilot)'ego' is based on solid foundations .
Also I prefer 'full real' (no external views) myself and feel its the 'natural progression' as your skills improve as the years pass by...

If more and more players are with UP's view, I'm afraid that the life of IL2 as a flight simulator is about to end. It is really very disappointing to see HL is now dominated by arcade servers.

Why is it that when Unknown Pilot said "I would like a full-switch server with limited icons and padlock turned on" so many snobs replied "What?!? You want a noobish wonder-woman arcade server?!? Oh this poor and noble game is going to the dogs!"

quote:

Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Funny, I can identify fighter sized planes typically about 3km away?

No way I can do that with my computer/monitor.

And this is Unknown Pilot's main point about a hardware edge. Turning on limited (1 km? maybe 2 km?) icons would level the playing field between those that have the $$ for good equipment, and those that only have what the 1946 box recommends.

You can recognize fighters at 3km? I have 20/20 vision and after playing this game for over a year, about 40% of it with the cockpit on, I can't. So you hold that edge not only because you're good at ID'ing planes, but because your hardware allows you to.

I too would like a full-switch 4.09 server that has icon settings that tell you if a plane is friend or foe from 1-2 kms away. That would take almost nothing away from any element of surprise, which I greatly enjoy whenever I fly closed-pit. Speedbar would be nice too.

Well you can wish for what you want, looking at hyperlobby and which servers are visited and which not....people decide with their feet, if they don´t like it they are not going to come, or stay.

But you do sort of wonder, what is it that people wish to fly vintage planes but with all the creature comforts of modern jet planes? It just seems wacked.

It is sort of like wanting to drive a Ford Model T with automatic, and power steering, and if possible with AC.

quote:

Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
No way I can do that with my computer/monitor.

I'm sorry to have to inform you, your monitor/computer/trackir/rudder pedals etc etc just isn't going to make as much difference as your practicing something will. Thats my experience.
Settings are a matter of choice and contrary to what Mr UF believes I fly varied settings not just FR but for me its the hardest challenge and most realistic. Although none of my upgrades improved my success rate (This isn't 'World of Warcraft' you can't buy skill), what they did do was increase my enjoyment of IL-2.

Here is my experience of equipment changes-



-Computer. Well I'm still on a 5 year old P4 so can't comment but I doubt a new one will make me a better pilot.

-TrackIr. Got it while still an offline player but still got bounced constantly when I went online as it didn't do the the checking of my 6 for me.

-Monitor. Replaced a 19'' CRT with a 24'' flatscreen recently. I still cant see dots as well as before after several months of use. The old CRT was better..seriously! IL-2 looks fab at 1920x1200 though.

-Stick. Bought a CH one a few years back.It took a bit of getting used to the loose springs but liked it in the end. It broke recently went back to a Saitek with frankly no difference to my flying or shooting after two days.

-Rudder pedals. Took a long time to get used to but feels intuitive now and I like them.

-Graphics card. Its an AGP one so frames get slow on perfect. Still can follow a bandit though.


Get the best equipment you can afford but don't expect wonders to your skill level or that you will be able to fly at harder settings. Practice is the only thing that works for that.

And finally concerning egos. Anyone who flys FR settings to try and lord it over those who don't is either a n00b at the settings or a fool in my view. However guys like U-P and their bluff'n'gruff responses to people who do like to push themselves at hard settings are suffering from ego problems themselves- bruised ones. Reminds me of the unfortunate modern habit of kids ridiculing classmates as uncool and swots if the try to improve themselves academically.

If you don't enjoy hard settings thats all you need to say, thats what most folk do with no trauma. To blame your equipment and when that doesn't work say it is unrealistic and people who fly that setting are all elitist snobs and full of BS, just sounds like a chip on the shoulder to me.
Perhaps its you that needs to believe its unimportant what settings you fly. I fly several and don't care.

IL2 does NOT benefit from expensive hardware that is less than 3 or 4 years old .Graphical imporvements ended with the ATi X1950 and Nvidia 7900 series cards at the latest .
The dot visibility issue couldnt be simpler -Use lower resolution -MAXIMUM 1280x1024...I use (and read that Oleg 'optimised' the game for) 1024x768.I have a 30 inch monitor and at 2560x1600 cant even see planes taking off from a base below me at 500m alt (Im not vulching,honest!)Even in 'dogfight' /small map servers its hopeless at higher res...In a less enemy dense environment you may as well be flying a 737 in FSX for all the chance you have of seeing an enemy plane (which isnt to say he wont find YOU!)
Unless you are viewing enemy 'dots' against a clear blue sky (and even then theyre tiny)youre wasting your time on higher res .
SUMMARY Fly 1024x768 and see the dots (whether on 15" CRT or 30" TFT)

quote:

Originally posted by ytareh:
IL2 does NOT benefit from expensive hardware that is less than 3 or 4 years old .Graphical imporvements ended with the ATi X1950 and Nvidia 7900 series cards at the latest .
The dot visibility issue couldnt be simpler -Use lower resolution -MAXIMUM 1280x1024...I use (and read that Oleg 'optimised' the game for) 1024x768.I have a 30 inch monitor and at 2560x1600 cant even see planes taking off from a base below me at 500m alt (Im not vulching,honest!)Even in 'dogfight' /small map servers its hopeless at higher res...In a less enemy dense environment you may as well be flying a 737 in FSX for all the chance you have of seeing an enemy plane (which isnt to say he wont find YOU!)
Unless you are viewing enemy 'dots' against a clear blue sky (and even then theyre tiny)youre wasting your time on higher res .
SUMMARY Fly 1024x768 and see the dots (whether on 15" CRT or 30" TFT)

IMO it just takes getting used to. When I upgraded I went from 1024x768 to 1680x1050 and it took me a while to get used to it again, but I can see dots against the runways and whatnot from quite a ways off.

Now that you started it... I will continue...

In your opinion, what does Perfect <-> Excellent landscape difference means in this regard?

Are dots easier to spot on Perfect or Excellent, or is it same?

quote:

Originally posted by DKoor:
Now that you started it... I will continue...

In your opinion, what does Perfect <-> Excellent landscape difference means in this regard?

Are dots easier to spot on Perfect or Excellent, or is it same?

I haven't really noticed much of a difference

The term "Full-real" I find very funny. Do you shoot yourself in the head when you you get a PK? I mean, that is as real as it gets!


Phillip