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IL2 Moderator |
Ground handling could be improved across the board. The 109 is probably too easy, but then the Ensign Eliminator (F4U) is also relatively docile in the game. Even the P51 was reputed to have some quirks in its ground handling with ground loops being entirely possible, which is also not present in the game. It's a general issue, so the 109s are being let off to the same extent that many planes are. But then the same sort of thing is true of the P51 - the wings come off when any plane hits 15G. In reality that's probably generous for some of the biplanes, but then you can't pull 15G on those anyway.
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IL2 Moderator  |
That last point is very good El.. and something I have been wondering about for years since particularly in the 109s... the ground handling was notoriously deadly.. as for the P-51... it is rare that I snap a wing anymore .. I have increased the dead zone and filtering on my stick setup .. and I never make large movements at high speeds... I try to look down the road so to speak to judge whatever maneuver I am going to make.. long shallow turns be they in the vertical or horizontal or any point in between are IMO best done as shallowly as possible.. the one thing that does still kill me though with the whole wing thing.. is usually if I am chasing a bandid and my wing breaks off.. the bandid may even be going faster andtighter than me... without a blip... I think the sound of rivets popping might help with that... catastrophic wing failure with absolutely no warning was rare. Yeager used to infuriate his ground crew because he often brought his ship back with popped rivets and structural damage because he constantly flew at the edge of the envelope. 
Mission4Today - Data / Files * J.O. Virtual Flight School Since change is inevitable it is better to direct that change rather than simply go through it.G.S.H. |
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The sidewinder has been great for my air flying on the edge and shooting, but, you make a very fair point. Bearcat also has a good idea about having rivets start to pop or heavy creaking as a warning. |
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He..he..he.. Me-109's were never known to shed wings in hard manauvers or even very steep high speed dives. Many many pilots crashed landed them hard and walked away with minor injuries even.
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I never found MSFF sticks responces canned as you say. Stalling shutters seemed to come on pretty progressivly.  gun shake was another matter.. |
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IL2 Moderator |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5svK5Xs76R4&feature=related -------------------------------------------------------------  "Over Dieppe, the wing was immediately bounced by a hundred FW 190s and a few Me 109s. I heard Johnson effing and blinding as he broke 610 into a fierce attack. I was hard at it dodging 190s, but I found time to speak sharply to Johnson about his foul language." - WingCo Jaime Jameson 12 Group Spitfire |
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Shedding wings wasn't just a possibility in the P-51, it was a possibility in many aircraft.Some examples of 109s losing wings or other parts: 1. Major Arthur F. Jeffrey, 25 December 1944, 479th FG: "On the way down I observed the other Me 109 break to pieces after he had dived almost straight down for 10,000 feet. I had not fired on him, nor did I see any other Allied A/C attacking, so the E/A must have exceeded the stress limits in the dive." 2. While flying a Me-109F Wilhelm Balthasar lost his life when he was attacked by a Spitfire during a test flight. Making an evasive maneuver, his wings broke away and Balthasar was killed when his plane hit the ground. 3. Gustav Sprick was killed when he performed a split-S maneuver. The right wing of his Bf 109 collapsed and he crashed. 4. USAF P-51 pilot W. Konantz chased after a Me-109G : “…At 10,000 feet I initiated a 4 G pullout and the Me-109 started to pull out at about the same time. But before he had raised his nose more than thirty degrees, his right wing ripped off through the wheel well and he spun into the ground in a matter of seconds. He had no time to get out and was still aboard when the 109 impacted and exploded in a wooded area. Just before I started my pullout II glanced at the airspeed indicator and saw the needle on 600 miles per hour, ninety five per hour over the redline speed of 505.” 5. Lt. John D. Stearns, 12 September 1944, 352nd FG “He started to pull out and both of his wings came off leaving a trail of spray and pieces.” 6. Capt. Henry B. Kucheman, 24 April 1944, 355th FG Three (3) Me 109's destroyed. "I was doing well over the 600 mark when the ship I was following attempted to roll to the left but his elevator pulled off first and finally his entire tail assembly tore off." 7 1st Lt. R. W. Priest, 2 November 1944, 355th FG "The right wing of the E/A was coming apart from the force of the dive. I glanced at the airspeed and I was indicating 620 miles per hour." |
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I know for a fact that many Russian planes will shed their wings at a high speed dive, and sooner than the German aircraft it`s cahsing...
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From all the german pilot accounts about flying the 109 and their experiance with it those "quotes" are highly dubious. I notice no german pilots are quoted btw..
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IL2 Moderator |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Sprick
'At the beginning of world war ІІ, Sprick was posted to JG 26 on 23 September 1939.Leutnant Sprick shot down his first enemy aircraft on 10 May 1940, a Dutch Fokker T-5 twin-engined bomber over Breda during Battle of France. Sprick was very successful during the French campaign having accrued nine victories by the fall of France. However, on 14 June he was shot down, near Evreux, by RAF Hurricane fighters after claiming one of their number. He gained 11 victories in the Battle of Britain. He was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 1 October after gaining his 20th victory. By the end of 1940 he had recorded 24 victories. During engaged in a dogfighting the right wing of his Bf 109 F-2 collapsed and he plunged to his death near Holque, France.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Balthasar ....Wilhelm Balthasar was killed only a day later during an aerial combat with RAF fighters over Aire, France. As he was diving violently in his Bf 109 F-4, the wing of his aircraft malfunctioned and he crashed to his death near St Omer.... ------------------------------------------------------------- "Over Dieppe, the wing was immediately bounced by a hundred FW 190s and a few Me 109s. I heard Johnson effing and blinding as he broke 610 into a fierce attack. I was hard at it dodging 190s, but I found time to speak sharply to Johnson about his foul language." - WingCo Jaime Jameson 12 Group Spitfire |
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I guess you've forgotten this? Flying Limitations of the Me 109 G (from: Technical Instructions of the Generalluftzeugmeister, Berlin, 28th August 1942.) Reference Me 109 - wing breakages. Owing to continually recurring accidents caused by wing breakages in Me 109 aircraft attention is drawn to the following: (1) The maximum permissible indicated airspeeds in the different heights are not being observed and are widely exceeded. On the basis of evidence which is now available the speed limitations ordered by teleprint message GL/6 No. 2428/41 of 10.6.41 are cancelled and replaced by the following data: Up to 3 km (9,842 ft.) 750 km/h. (466 m.p.h.) At 5 km (16,404 ft) 700 km/h. (435 m.p.h.) At 7 km (22,965 ft) 575 km/h. (357 m.p.h.) At 9 km (29,527 ft) 450 km/h. (280 m.p.h.) At 11 km (36,089 ft) 400 km/h. (248 m.p.h.) These limitations are valid for the time being for all building series including the Me 109 G. A corresponding notice is to be placed upon all air-speed indicators in aircraft. (2) Yawing in a dive leads to high one-sided wing stresses which, under certain circumstances, the wing tip cannot support. When a yawing condition is recognised the dive is to be broken off without exercising force. In a flying condition of yawing and turning at the same time correction must be made with the rudder and not the ailerons. The condition of wing tips is to be examined and checked with TAGL. Bf 109 Nos. 5/41 and 436/41. (3) Unintentional unlocking of the undercarriage in a dive leads also - especially if only one side unlocks - to high wing stresses. Observation and the carrying out of TAGL. No. 11/42 and the following numbers is, therefore specially important. Note. Trouble has been experienced owing to undercarriage unlocking in a dive and a modification has been brought out to prevent this. .......The dive speed limits listed above are also to be found in Vorläufige Fluggenehmigung BF 109 G-2 and G-6 Dive limitations from: Bf 109 G-2, G-4, G-6 Bedienungsvorschrift, June 1943 edition Dive: Adjust trim in such a way that the airplane can be held in a dive. The elevator forces and tailplane loads become great at high speeds. The tailplane adjustment must work perfectly; otherwise shifting of the tailplane is possible. Sturzflug: Trimming so einstellen daß das Flugzeug durch Drücken im Sturzflug gehalten werden kann. Die Höhenruderkräfte und Flossenbelastungen werden bei hoher Fahrt sehr groß. Hemmung der Flossen verstellung muß einwandfrei arbeiten; sonst ist Selbst verstellung der Flosse möglich. Maximum diving speed 750 km/h. Hard aileron manipulation while diving leads to failure, particularly when pulling out. Höchstzulässige Sturzfluggeschwindigkeit 750 km/h. Harte querruder betätigung im Sturz und besonders beim Abfangen führt zum Bruch. http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html |
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I guess you haven't seen this?
Me 109 G: "- How fast could you go with it? How fast did you dare to fly in a dive, what was the limit? It was ... 720 (kilometers/hour), if I remember right. You weren't supposed to exceed it but we did it many times. And as the air was thin up there, so we often had to go vertical when escorting a photographing plane." - Väinö Pokela, Finnish fighter ace and Me 109 trainer. 5 victories. Source: Interview of Väinö Pokela by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. "- Are the stories true, that the 109 had weak wings and would loose them easily? He has never heard of a 109 loosing its wings from his experience or others. The wings could withstand 12 g's and since most pilots could only handle at most 9 g's there was never a problem. He was never worried about loosing a wing in any form of combat." - Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler. Me 109 F/G: "- What's the fastest you ever had a 109 in a dive? I've taken it to about 680 to 750 km/hr at which point you needed 2 hands to pulls it out of the dive." - Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler. |
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IL2 Moderator |
Any planes wings could fail in a hard dive, its not just limited to the P51, however obviously planes which pick up speed well in a dive, like the P51 and Bf109 will be more prone to it than the slower diving planes, purely because they reach higher speeds quicker in a dive..
------------------------------------------------------------- "Over Dieppe, the wing was immediately bounced by a hundred FW 190s and a few Me 109s. I heard Johnson effing and blinding as he broke 610 into a fierce attack. I was hard at it dodging 190s, but I found time to speak sharply to Johnson about his foul language." - WingCo Jaime Jameson 12 Group Spitfire |
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psss...  this site you quote is a well known Spitfire Fan boy/ hate 109 site. The wings could withstand 12 G's. I don't call this weak. |
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Easy to find pilots of many other aircraft who didn't lose their wings in high speed dives. Give up the trolling. no one is buying it. |
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Your Troll foo is weak. |
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We will see a lot more collapsing wings, once we have damage causing material fatigue in BoB. But even without that, I got a lot of collapsing wings, when I flew 109s in a dogfight.
Of course I just didn't say, that it was always due to enemy fire. But well, nobody said so in the quotes above, so it must be weak wings on the 109. I really wonder, though, why all these statements were made by pilots who were fighting the 109s. Must be pretty boring to stay behind the planes, not fire a single shot and waiting for their wings to come off.  greets Capt.LoneRanger  |
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It's true and well known here except by you apparently..
want more info..? The Me 109 was dived to Mach 0.79 in instrumented tests. Slightly modified, it was even dived to Mach 0.80, and the problems experimented there weren't due to compressility, but due to aileron overbalancing. Compare this to Supermarine Spitfire, which achieved dive speeds well above those of any other WW2 fighter, getting to Mach 0.89 on one occasion. P-51 and Fw 190 achieved about Mach 0.80. The P-47 had the lowest permissible Mach number of these aircraft. Test pilot Eric Brown observed it became uncontrollable at Mach 0.73, and "analysis showed that a dive to M=0.74 would almost certainly be a 'graveyard dive'." - Source: Radinger/Otto/Schick: "Messerschmitt Me 109", volumes 1 and 2, Eric Brown: "Testing for Combat". - (Comment: it seems Eric Brown's analysis is flawed, though, and test pilot Herb Fisher performed 150+ such dives: an example of a 0.79 dive. Several of the dives achieved Mach 0.83. Sources: Herb Fisher, Herb Fisher Jr., and Curtiss-Wright. - Versuchs-Bericht Nr 109 05 E 43 - Date 15.4.43 This original German test document refers to dive tests of 109s with the tall tail. Result of this test was that the new tail reduced highspeed diving ozillations (which sometimes appeard with the old tail). More interesting is the fact, that in this tests, which had not the aim to estimate the highest mach number or to test the structure, they reached max. Mach 0,805@7.0km max. TAS 906km/h@5.8km max. IAS 737km/h@4.5km Even more interesting is the fact that they tried different positions of the trimming. With the wrong trimset - the one for cruising at high altitude it was not possible to pull out of the dive just by using the stick. They needed to use the trimwheel to recover the plane from the dive. This happened in such violent manner that the testpilot had to push the stick foreward to be not blacked out... If the trim was set to +1.15° it was possible to recover without using the trimwheel - both flightpaths, with and without the trimwheel, are very similar. So even with the concrete stick the limitating factor seems to be the pilot. Also interesting in the dive the canopy iced, also the mechanism of the trim, so it was not possible to set it smooth, but in \"jumps\", but it was still adjustable... - Source: Hochgeschwindigkeitsversusche mit Me 109, Messerschmitt AG, Augsburg. http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/structures/tails/..._report/05e43-p1.htm |
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