I can't say that I'm sure what just happened to me in one P-51D sortie.

In short; I followed Bf-109 in dive and he rolled to the right, I tried to follow but my left wing just snapped off.
In replay I saw that the mentioned accident happened at exactly 635km/h TAS (at time 2:22 on track), on very low altitude.
Now I'm puzzled... since my stick input was mainly in aileron, and also not so radical... how come that happened?
My best guess is that P-51D was not able to endure the aileron (?) force on its wings, however my feeling was that this shouldn't have happened, thus I write all this.

Well I have a track... so maybe we can discuss it?

d/l
http://www.filefactory.com/file/15359f/

You pulled up too hard at 650kph.

Nothing wrong there. Just the P51's uber elevator authority.

I could hear the buffeting, I think you were pulling up more radically than you thought.

You are probably right.
I reviewed the track several times... however I can hear buffeting on a track for a very short period of time I'd say one sec. or so.
I definitely heard no buffeting when I played.

It was over really fast.

My honest first thought was that this happened due to much aileron input.

When you roll, you increase AOA on one wing (make lift) and decrease on the other.
If you try this too fast, bad things can happen. The faster you are moving and the more G's
you are already loaded with, the worse the result.

Were you closing on the 109 while this was going on?

Try keeping the P-51 trimmed just a little nose heavy at high speeds.

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Were you closing on the 109 while this was going on?

Yes, but very slowly... I'd say difference in speed was negligible in spite of him being shot in the engine.

quote:

Try keeping the P-51 trimmed just a little nose heavy at high speeds.

Thx will try next time.

P51 wing loss is still over done IMHO.

Now I know I've just invited plagues of locusts etc.. on me for saying this, but the simple fact remains that in our little simulated world we have no "seat of the pants" feel of anything. A real P51 pilot would feel in his controls and in the airframe in general if things were getting close to the edge. Some lee way must be given for the lack of tactile inputs.

And in any case wing loss in real aircraft was no where near as prevalent as it is in the sim. Mostly limited to one block of early production P51Ds because of faulty gear door locking mechanisms.

If it's any consolation, I accidentally snapped off a Go-229 wing when trying to do a loop the other day. I had been cruising straight 'n' level at a good clip, probably 650-700 km/h or so, and I didn't think I pulled back all that hard. There was never any buffeting; I simply noticed the airplane was flying funny, and when I went to external view, saw I was missing a wing!

When you're going very fast, you can do VERY bad things to the aircraft without trying.

The P-51, winning the war with one wing tied behind it's back!

Indeed P51 pilots should be cautious in a high speed dive. I once read about an American ace on the western front who was never shot down by enemy fighters or flak, but who was eventually captured by the Germans because he ripped a wing off his P51 when pulling out of a dive - and no enemy aircraft was around him then. Don't remember his name or other details, though.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zxwings,

Altitude seems to be the deciding factor in wing breakage on all aircraft where it's a problem (P-51, Ki-84, etc).

I tried a dive from 7500m with the P-51D-20 and got to 800kmh TAS at around 4000m, and proceeded to pull out as hard as I could. I succeeded in only blacking out.

The same dive from 3000m to a speed of 780kmh TAS resulted in a wing breakage.

quote:

Originally posted by ElAurens:
P51 wing loss is still over done IMHO.

Now I know I've just invited plagues of locusts etc.. on me for saying this, but the simple fact remains that in our little simulated world we have no "seat of the pants" feel of anything. A real P51 pilot would feel in his controls and in the airframe in general if things were getting close to the edge. Some lee way must be given for the lack of tactile inputs.

And in any case wing loss in real aircraft was no where near as prevalent as it is in the sim. Mostly limited to one block of early production P51Ds because of faulty gear door locking mechanisms.

We probably don't agree that often even when I don't speak up about it but I definitely agree with you there. Its a bit overdone...P-51 gets the limelight but a few other types like the YP-80 do it just as easily.

All it takes is a quick input on the stick and you've lost the wing.

Fly T-Bolt. Problem solved.

quote:

Originally posted by R_Target:
Fly T-Bolt. Problem solved.

Its true

Thunderbolt is a much more "comfortable" fighter where you don't have to worry about that sort of thing. But its not quite as agile as the Mustang. Its a tradeoff between the two really. Mustang is a bit more of a performance aircraft as you have to balance it like a knife edge where as the Thunderbolt is a bit more subdued but absolutely confident in everything it does.

quote:

We probably don't agree that often even when I don't speak up about it but I definitely agree with you there. Its a bit overdone...P-51 gets the limelight but a few other types like the YP-80 do it just as easily.

You can do it in a number of planes. I've done it in the Fw190D before now. Hit 15G and the wings come off. The P51 simply has more effective elevators than most so it is easier to pull 15G. The subject has been done to death with outputs from DeviceLink.

While reading the replies in this thread I remembered an incident which happened in real life and wonder if it had something to do with this topic:

namely the time that Hub Zemke (who first made a name for himself as commander of the 56th FG, flying P-47s) had his P-51 break up during mid-flight in the middle of a storm. I think he survived the accident but ended up captured.

This is the only incident I can remember of a WWII fighter breaking up because of bad weather, so this supports the contention P-51s being more prone to ripping off a wing than other plane types. Don't it ?

This problem is documented on many occasions and it was posted here, before. I remember a phrase from a book that it was always a problem, but much worse when the 2 additional HMGs were implemented into the wings and additionally weakened the wingroots.

I also saw a documentary about the P51 and a pilot mentioned that problem, too. He stated, that though they had been warned, most squadrons learned the hard way and lost a lot of P51s especially during groundattacks in the first days.

I used the QMB and tried to get close to limits.

As noted in the T.O., load factors are reduced when an end user exceeds the amount of weight creep the designer factored into the airframe.

The P51 experienced a 14% design weight growth over it's operational lifecycle.

All the Best,

Crumpp

I think you will find that it is not elevator only that rips the wings off. It is the combination of Aileron and elevator. If you were to pull straight up on that dive then rolled over to re-acquire the bandit, the wing would not have broken. But the combination of rolling to the left and pulling is what broke the wing.

I can pull out of dives with good authority at very high speeds if I use elevator only. But the slightest aileron input during the pull out will result in wing loss.

quote:

Originally posted by ElAurens:
P51 wing loss is still over done IMHO.

Now I know I've just invited plagues of locusts etc.. on me for saying this, but the simple fact remains that in our little simulated world we have no "seat of the pants" feel of anything. A real P51 pilot would feel in his controls and in the airframe in general if things were getting close to the edge. Some lee way must be given for the lack of tactile inputs.

And in any case wing loss in real aircraft was no where near as prevalent as it is in the sim. Mostly limited to one block of early production P51Ds because of faulty gear door locking mechanisms.

Now I`m no aircraft expert, but in the case of `feel` perhaps using a Sidewinder Force Feedback would help. It`s excellent for conveying info when riding on the `edge`.

I guess this is one of those times when I must disagree Seafire. I used to use FFB when I first started. I found it's canned responses to be, well, cannned. And my shooting improved immensely when I swithched to a CH.

And I could not allow myself to buy a piece of kit that has no support and a very limited supply of replacements. I knkow you guys that use the MS FFB sticks worship them, but I'm just as sold on my CH HOTAS.

And don't you find it interesting, that the reports of P51 wing breakage can be spouted chapter and verse, and yet the very well known poor ground handling of the entire Bf109 series has never once been addressed? I'm not trying to divert here, just showing an example of why so many American flyers seem so upset.