I'll drink to that!

quote:

Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
gotta go with billfish on this one.
Once we start to fiddle with new "variants" of old planes, even if they are given new slots, the questions appear: "why not make new variants of this, and this and this..." ... will we have 10 new slots for each and every plane in order to say "well at least we didn't touch the original FM"?... and those "new" 50cals.. affect all planes right?

i am for mods, less more for "new" fm's on new "variants" of "old planes" and "for" a "lot" of quotation mark.

I'm really curious about these new 50cals... 190s were hard beasts to bring down, but I could cut late 109s like they were made of butter.

Does this mean that now you can kill a 109s with 5 bullets?

AFAIK, the only thing changed with the new 51's FM is the CoG was corrected for the issue with the center fuel tanks. We all know now that the center fuel tanks really messed up the stangs stability and was the first fuel to be burned off, but since il2 does not model fuel weight consumption, let alone from a particular tank, then the FM is inherently incorrect if modeled after having the center tank filled. By the time the 51's got anywhere near combat that center tank would be empty and the 'stang would be in fighting trim so to speak. And of course the API belting is long overdue.

I understand the reservations about who is fiddling with FM's and how rigorous their methods are, but from what I have seen the guys writing these FM's are being extremely careful and meticulous about their research. Lets face it, there is a lot more info out there on the net in 2009 than there was in 1999-2001 when oleg was researching his flight models.

As far a HSFX and Flight Models, almost all the changes were to four and two engine aircraft that were AI aircraft made flyable. For example, the B-17, with full fuel and bomb load was "floating" off the runway in about 200 ft., then climbing like a ballon. Also it would float over the runway on landing with engines throttled back to 0. Eventually it would just drop and crash on the runway. It was ruining the experience of flying it. So we altered it into a much heavier aircraft.

We can't claim, and won't try and say it's exactly absolutely correct. But we can say it's far better than it was. The other 4 and 2 engine aircraft were much the same. They weren't made easier to fly, they were made harder to fly. We don't touch any of Oleg's FM's ever.

BTW, just to be clear to anyone reading this, the P-51 changes weren't introduced by HSFX or included in the HSFX release. This is the AAA 1.2 release.

quote:

Feathered_IV

Would the 242 Squadron people ever release an SFS-creator tool that would allow offline users to package up their own custom installs into time saving SFS files? It's the one thing I've been hoping for, as I've spent a lot of time putting my own setup together, and it's massive.

I'm afraid we can't. It was offered to us with conditions, one of which is, we can't distribute it.

I read that infantry is also in this pack, so now I'd like to know how it functions and if somebody could please post a screen shot of them. Thank you

quote:

Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
AFAIK, the only thing changed with the new 51's FM is the CoG was corrected for the issue with the center fuel tanks. We all know now that the center fuel tanks really messed up the stangs stability and was the first fuel to be burned off, but since il2 does not model fuel weight consumption, let alone from a particular tank, then the FM is inherently incorrect if modeled after having the center tank filled. By the time the 51's got anywhere near combat that center tank would be empty and the 'stang would be in fighting trim so to speak. And of course the API belting is long overdue.

I understand the reservations about who is fiddling with FM's and how rigorous their methods are, but from what I have seen the guys writing these FM's are being extremely careful and meticulous about their research. Lets face it, there is a lot more info out there on the net in 2009 than there was in 1999-2001 when oleg was researching his flight models.

10-4 Good Buddy.



The "new slot" P51D's are really terrific aircraft. One of my training regimens in QMB is to allow an enemy a/c close up on my six, then initiate a scissors. Previously, this was practically impossible to do in the P51D. One or two turns into it, and the drunken sailor FM put you right into the dirt.

The fun is certainly back in the P51D. I'm having some terrific fights with the P51D vs Ki84's and Ki100's.

I had the pleasure of installing the HSFX last night and playing around with it for hours.

About new planes added ...

quote:

Originally posted by T4T-TheProf:
"floating" off the runway in about 200 ft., then climbing like a balloon."... and ... "it would float over the runway on landing with engines throttled back to 0. Eventually it would just drop and crash on the runway. It was ruining the experience of flying it."

Actually I still find this to be the case with the majority of the 'new' planes added.

Halifax, Swordfish, Avenger, Panther, Catalina to name a few.

I shall play around with the installation before further condemning all the hard work that undoubtedly went into this install.

I love the ease of install and the quicker loading - those aspects of the install are sensational and now that they are available it is near criminal to not have these aspects incorporated into other offering from other groups to me.

In my opinion they all seem to fly closer to the Goodyear blimp than anything else in the game. And like the quote above this ruins the experience for myself - so far.

I realize that some will say that this is the nature of the various mod install packages, that they are in effect all a work in progress. But so far for me playing with a work in progress makes me want to stand up from my desk and walk away from the game. It completely ruins Il-2 for me. I want, I need - a polished finished product.

It is as if someone walked up to the Mona Lisa with a can of spray paint and painted bigger boobs on her. (I think most of us can agree that poor old Mona is a little flat chested - but still. Modding her into a caricature of Pamela Anderson ruins her.)

The unpolished flight models make the game into the CFS series for me. (And the absolute clincher for me is the addition of the creaking wooden battleship sounds when the airframes are under stress. OMG I hate that!)

Still trying to keep an open mind, and despite what I wrote I sincerely appreciate the effort and passion and dedication of those who give their time and talents to the cause. I started to think about all the collective man hours needed to bring one plane or a map to the table. I cannot imagine the tens of thousand of hours that this must total. It is either colossally impressive of horrifying. Frankly, not sure on this.

quote:

Originally posted by Manu-6S:


I'm really curious about these new 50cals... 190s were hard beasts to bring down, but I could cut late 109s like they were made of butter.

Does this mean that now you can kill a 109s with 5 bullets?

OFFLINE:

The new belting does NOT equal WonderAmmo.

The dispersion looks wider, kind of like back in the day when US a/c first came to the sim. From longer distance, the best you hope for is some surface damage to degrade your opponent's aircraft. You have to close up and really punch your target with a good burst. Initially, I am experiencing fewer wing removals against anything except Zeros.

The number uno change is the tracers. Much, much better. The two things many of us were asking for: You can now see the darn things, and they "burn" for a longer distance. This is how I am now hitting my targets harder. Regarding the sounds, the interior sounds seems fine, but the exterior needs some work.

One other aspect that is not related to the weapons themselves, is that in the case of the P51D, you have better control since the drunken sailor FM has been fixed. Now when an enemy pulls a Split S, I actually have a chance of hitting his plane. Without the bobble nose, I can use rudder inputs at this point to actually aim. I am finding many more shot opportunities than before.

quote:

Originally posted by Fehler:
Haha, I see your point Max.

But question... How is that different than what has happened to the original game throughout all it's patches and fixes?

When first released, all the "is correct, be sure" changed quite a bit.

I remember the FM's being told to be where possible within 5% and mostly closer than that. And the words "hardware limits"
being used often. On some things "is correct" was told like the 190A-4 ATA for that Russian Front model. And I remember
not agreeing about The Bar and The Trim but dealing with those anyway.

Today we don't have models on steroids but from the history of mods I know the "just a little more" principle does happen.
Some of the things sure to be "fixed" in FM are piloting problems that Aces didn't write as having simply because they flew
right but with enough dumbing down won't give Johnny "I read a book, I know how it should be." Joystick any trouble either.

The good news is there can be servers for anybody who wants that. The bad news is when half or more the servers are that.
How many servers are running 4.09 now and how many are waiting for 4.09 compatible mod patches first?
But really WTH when SoW is coming along?

quote:

Originally posted by Fehler:
I think there is some misunderstanding going on. Each and every plane in IL2 has it's own flight model and damage model. There is no "universal" FM/DM. So making a new plane with a new FM/DM means just that. It is different and separate than the others.

I'm not so sure that is correct......

Virtually every patch issued by Oleg there was a FM change.......You cannot tell me he sat down and altered every single aircraft.

My "guess" is there are two aspects to FM.
1. A universal "Flight Engine" if you will, this produces the characteristics of lift, drag, stall, etc.. and is universally applied over the entire sim. IOW, if an aircraft has this wing area, this distance to the elevator from the pivot, this weight, this power, etc. etc. you get "X" result.
2. An individual aircraft FM...Here you input all the criteria for the above, HP, weight, wing area, etc..

Think of item 1 as an algebra equation...Lots of A,B,C variables.....Think of item 2 as what each variable is.

So, you alter item 1 determining that say gravity is more realistic if x=.5y*23.87654/2 within the item 1 equation, and you have to do nothing with all the A-B-C-X-Y-Z variables...you simply get a result.....However.....That means where in this and that aircraft are now flying better, that one and that one are way off base......So at that point you go in and make little adjustments to item 2 per aircraft to bring them back into spec based upon the new "flight engine".

That's my guess anywho............


YET..........Not the point.....


SO let me come out and say it.....

These very questions, fears and concerns were voiced by the "anti-modders" from day 1. The crux of the entire thing was "across the board consistancy"....NOT some sacred "Oleg FM".

That means that to truly deal with this issue, item 1, the flight engine if you will needs to be looked at....Yet to change it means EVERY aircraft will change........Now fears of lack of consistancy have been proven out by the "MODDING COMMUNITY". Proof being, at this site X/Y/Z mods are not allowed, at the other site the other guys, back and forth everyone doing their own thing and shunning the rest.

So each starts wrestling for who's mod set is the one....AAA taking great steps with the UI, 242 with their SFS method, each having their merits and I'm sure SAS and so on as well. To a great degree they all "help" security and consistancy......Then comes along DT with the official 4.09 and wham, new player in the mix.

242Sq. then takes from the other groups for HSFX 4.0, even able to overlay it over 4.09....YET....As can be seen in this thread doesn't offer all of what the players want.

Lastly, we see all these groups, even DT willing to discuss working somewhat together.....Anyone seeing the answer yet?

It's now time if it has not already happened (in that I'm not privey to the behind the scenes management of the modding groups)...That all these groups get together and apply all their work able to cross check one another and offer a true community wide patch.

Now I do not expect DT to suddenly pick up all the final work, nor any group, yet "what if" 242Sq. utilizes their SFS & Java checking magic, AAA accumulating the bulk, SAS doing what they do (don't know never been to their site, ETC. ETC.......In the end, DT doing nothing more then perhaps just being kept in the loop, their level of involvement up to them, you have the following result:

1. A real "patch/add-on", not bits and pieces that can be chopped out or easily altered.
2. The security that only an SFS patch can bring. AAA made great strides and efforts with U.I., it is more secure, yet not as much as 242sq. method.
3. You get many more mods in that the SFS files are smaller so finding a reasonable limit may be bigger then what 242sq. offers, yet smaller then U.I.
4. You get consistancy, everyone is running the same thing no matter where you get your mods from.....and those individual aspects folks want can be added over yet are truly kept seperate wherein UI to a great degree really dominates the software.
5. Faster load times....Say what you want, many saying it loads fast simply to be contrary as in "fast enough"....Yet 4.08 loads miles faster, I'd like that back.
6. Bug checking....The concept 242 offers regarding checking for bugs and java conflicts I really like.....and yes there are problems.
7. Better compatibility with DT....More so, they might just get on board.
8. With such a community wide patch such things as FM's, DM's, Weapons can all be messed with YET on a even keel, all aircraft either reaping or suffering from the benefits.......It makes the FM/DM/Weapons issues mute.
9. No one has a leg to stand on about modding, it then balanced, fair, everyone flying the same sim.


etc..

The modding community is "that close"......Trick will be if they can really work together and remember......."This was meant to be a historical flight simulation"....Not just a game.

Now go back and read what I said when modding first came out........There it is again.

K2

I like to think AAA set of mods DON'T alter existing oleg's planes in anyway except

Retexturing cockpits
Assigning cockpits to non flyables

I know some tweaks have been made to AI planes in order to make them flyable

I don't even stop for a moment to think about new slot planes, I mean, if you fly on a server that features them you do it at your own risk

Can any of you guys, maturely say, which stock ac has been touched?

I guess I don't get the concern with online flyers. If the mods are an issue why not just fly the unmodded game? If it's a server issue that some users feel there aren't any places left to fly the version you want online why not host your own? I don't fly online much anymore so the issues raised by some here don't really concern me.

Just looking at the AAA website shows 39599 registered users. I've no idea how many users there are here, but I'd bet not nearly as many. Obviously there are many people who have learned how to use mods in a way that works for them. That, in the end, is all that matters.

Hi guys.I was an avid IL2 player yrs back but left when Oleg installed the new FM.It had an issue for me and many that was termed wobbles.I just couldn't seem to live with the massive instability that Oleg claimed was either realistic or in my head.Some people had it while others didn't and it just ruined the game for me.

For the past few years I have watched SOW with anticipation but also dread that Oleg was still finding this unstable FM to be accurate.So I ask....do the mods remove the "wobbles"......does anyone even remember the term wobbles?

~S~ all

You left too soon, the wobbles got toned down a lot like 1 or 2 patches later.

patch 4.02. the horror.

patch 4.04, the joy!

Say it aint so

I was angry and sad at same time that I left.I am in process of defragging right now and will do a reinstall and add this HSFX 4.0 mod in.

I tried the Infantry...no screenshot yet...
A group of four men represent a platoon and move slowly along to the sound of footfalls in boots....they fire at enemy..(I set them on the new Midway map and landed my D3A there)...some of the groups have a bazooka so will engage tanks too.... my plane was set on fire by ground fire whilst parked....not sure if they will fire at planes in the air.

quote:

Originally posted by wolf-striked:
Say it aint so

That's what you get for jumping ship... If Oleg has taught me nothing else it is that when it comes to flight sims he & 1C know their stuff.. and all these great mods we now have wouldn't be here if the original canvas & paint of IL2 had never been made...

and don't you forget it...

I still cant believe that I am still here.. If someone had told me in 2001 that I was getting into something that I'd be doing prety regularly over the next decade I would have told them they were crazy.. but it has been a great ride.

I know what you mean Bearcat and good to see you again as I easily remember Bearcat.

The next step in simulations is coming around the bend,I can feel it!!

Back on topic 4 a moment please,

Is my patch order
my DLd D2Drive 4.08m==>HC's patch==>HSFX 4.0==> 4.09m ?

Appreciate any help.