Please do NOT get me wrong.....

Oleg was not infalible and by no means does that mean that any changes made to his aircraft are wrong.....

However, the very same issues that affect the P51's, affect ALL the aircraft. As I used as an example the Ki-43 is an absolute joke now making FW's and P51's seem like Oaks.

Yet that is a result of the overall FM my guess. That means we all suffer.

Okay, so you make a new aircraft, though flying under the same FM it is tweaked to not be so affected by the FM all other aircraft live under..........Hence, you suddenly have imbalance.

Now I'm not saying there is an easy answer....In fact, I bet if you changed the FM, suddenly you'd have half the planes flying like crap the rest fixed up.....Yet if we think about it what was really different about these new P51's from the others in the sim as to stability. Was there some new wing design? Balance points change? New tail section? What?.....In kind what about the new ammo loadouts on the new aircraft? If you change for one you change for them all, or is it that they have their own custom ammo?

It's not saying the old were correct, nor is it saying the FM is, in fact the way these new aircraft are may be spot on.......What it is saying though is, these new aircraft are not as affected by the FM then the rest from what you all are saying.

.......and to that end we now have imbalance in the sim.

That's the point.......They either all need to be right, or all wrong. How it works be it for aircraft FM's/DM's and armament.

I'm not making a "Mods is evil" post.....Yet this goes back to the very issue that most had with them way back...........There are some awesome aircraft and weapons being made by those modding, many of them I am personally glad we're getting. Yet if they are being fixed for the sims failings, what do you then do about the rest?

K2

gotta go with billfish on this one.
Once we start to fiddle with new "variants" of old planes, even if they are given new slots, the questions appear: "why not make new variants of this, and this and this..." ... will we have 10 new slots for each and every plane in order to say "well at least we didn't touch the original FM"?... and those "new" 50cals.. affect all planes right?

i am for mods, less more for "new" fm's on new "variants" of "old planes" and "for" a "lot" of quotation mark.

Well, it's not just P51's, as there are a lot of new FM aircraft and even some existing changed.......Yet again, not all, so no even across the board fix.

To be frank I could much easier deal with an overall FM change then a partial plane at a time.........As I can assure you the "uber/porked" debates are coming.

Lastly, some mods quite frankly I "personally" (so just anothers opinion) don't approve of in that they are not historically correct. Now I know the argument "so don't use them"....Okay, that's all good and fine, yet I have to face folks who do so have an option of either fly wrong to be on par, or fly right at a possible disadvantage.

There is so much to this very core issue...........

HOWEVER......I do not believe doing nothing is the answer either.

There is a sound, community acceptable answer out there, trick is to find it.

K2

Thanks, this seems pretty amazing.



Hmmmm ya know . . .


I have to agree with the LE and F19. All or nothing.

Even if its to make it closer to real, how about planes that weren't modded? The popular ones get new hotness FM's and the ones well are left with old and busted?

So like popular planes like Hellcats and Mustangs get the History Channel makeover so they perform and are the true war winners.

And certain planes like the Ki-43 or the 109E/F still have the old and busted FM?

I'd feel better if there was some sort of "official" team D or Oleg & crew sanctioned regulation that would balance out FM and weapons mods. That also allows community input but keeps the heart of the matter: making it accurate and balanced in terms of the current game FM and for all aircraft.

And also not catering to popular opinion or playing favorites but by using true historically accurate using many accounts:

first hand pilot / crew experiences, flight tests / results, actual engineering documentation / statistic compilations, and comparisons against other aircraft. Actual flight testing of restored airworthy . . .

And well some planes you can't get information like the push prop Shinden, so they would have to go with the design plans and set it so it has its performance strenths and weaknesses with its competitors (like F8F Bearcat). with the heart of the designers in mind . . . .



My own personal feeling is . . .it's ok to mod FM's or weapons for non online uses.

But modded FM's and Weapons online can gives the advantage to the modders. Especially for mods that aren't openly distributed.

I'm not saying that happens here, haven't seen this for myself.

But one place I know where this happens and its a very popular game and game company takes a much harder stance and spends alot of resource to police their policy of no game altering mods.

In MMO's (World of Warcraft) this is a big issue. My ex and I quit that game partly due to this reason. It's known there that guilds (squadrons) with powerful and very subtle and hard to detect mods usually only circulate them within as to keep the advantage to themselves. And some mods are manhattan project worthy and give amazing, amazing advantage to the users of that mod. So secrecy is a big must.

Blizzard (WOW's parent companY) takes a harsh approach to no mods and consistenly works to keep them out of the online, but still they are prevalent.

It sucks because to excel at that game its more about WHO you know than your gaming skill. Whats more sad is most warcraft players don't even know about those uber mods or dismiss their existence (addiction to the game is blinding) . . .

Its gotten so rampant that WOW tournaments ban the use of mods and custom PC's / keyboards and force players to use tournament stock machines / WOW installs.

Here though for IL-2 Oleg takes a balanced approach and the community is good at policing itself.

I'm probably going to get slammed here but I've had first hand experience on where mods are used to gain an unfair advantage.

And the easiest solution w/out official regulation is to just use stock online so everyone is at a level playing field.

Or maybe allow all mods like the sound or graphics ones . . . except those that add to, change or update FM and weapons unofficially.

I think there is some misunderstanding going on. Each and every plane in IL2 has it's own flight model and damage model. There is no "universal" FM/DM. So making a new plane with a new FM/DM means just that. It is different and separate than the others.

Now, as far as I understand it, each map has it's own separate parameters that will effect all planes, but that is the way it has always been. Remember when Oleg wanted us to make our tests on the Crimea map? That was because it was the most "neutral" map in the batch. Others have different pressures and temperatures, etc.

With the new P-51's, I do not know what was actually done to the flight model (if anything). I do know that API was added to the belting of the weapons which is correct for later year model .50 cals. This only applies to the planes that are modded. Not all .50 cal planes received the API belting, only the newly slotted planes.

Why?

To preserve the purity of the original aircraft as modeled by Oleg.

I remember when the big debate (a few years ago) about the 20mm guns on German aircraft. Oleg modeled the belting to Russian front standards, although a completely different belting was used in the west. For the Russian front, there were more AP rounds and less Mine rounds, where in the west they used more explosive rounds because their greatest threat was strategic bombers.

Now, again, I do not know exactly what was done to the flight model of the new slot P-51's. As a matter of fact, they may even be cloned from other variants which is what was done with the Sea Hurricanes.

Even with the API belting on the new Mustangs, one must still hit at convergence to get good effect. The API belting helps to ignite fires a little easier than before and do a little more structural damage than the other .50 cal Mustangs without the API.

Believe me, these are not "world beaters" by any stretch of the imagination.

To me, I think it's cool that players have an opportunity to experience more of this genre than was originally provided by the game's creator. It is a great tribute (IMHO) to the quality of game that Oleg devised nearly 8 years ago! It has opened the door to opportunities that were impossible before the mods.

For example, our group is currently experiencing a long campaign designed around the Mediterranean theater. We have Blenheims and Beaufighters and tropical 109's. We are using moving ships and columns that stop and fight each other. We have carrier based Martlets and (soon) the Swordfish. None of these things would have been possible without the hard work of talented modders.

Now, I too was once a HUGE skeptic. I remember the CFS days of super-human 109's and P-51's.

But this adventure is greatly different. These arent 12 year old kids that want to rack up 700 kills in a dogfight server; editing simple text documents to make their planes 3000 lbs lighter or their weapons hit like mini nukes.

These are responsible people that share the same love for this game as we all do. They have taken the things that we all wanted in the game and made it happen. They are the same people that used to frequent this very forum and took part in open discussion with Oleg about this sim. Far from the pasty-skinned, pimple faced kids that wrecked CFS because they couldnt get a girlfriend. LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by LEBillfish:

quote:

Originally posted by Rjel:

quote:

Originally posted by LEBillfish:

quote:

Originally posted by Bearcat99:
and the UI1.2 Mustangs are a MUST HAVE for us.. I th8ink I'll do a clean install and check this out..

How is that?....FM's have changed?

K2

Yup. Now it flies like it should. Still stalls, still snap rolls but not so hap hazardly.

Yeahhhhhhhhh.....how interesting and disconcerting....

K2

Back to the pre-IL2 days again with hacked or open sims X, Y and Z.

This doesn't seem right --- tweak.
Well this plane should be faster than that one --- tweak.
But those should climb better -- tweak.
And these should accelerate better --- tweak.
Now those aren't faster any more --- tweak.
That's good but now these have an unfair advantage between 2km and 2.5km alt --- squeak.
Well I can prove that the energy retention is wrong with my special tests --- and so it goes.

Everyone who can come up with "a good reason" for "it should" can justify a mod to someone
who can't see why not, the same as it went before but of course THIS time the result will
be different uh-huh.

Food court at the mall. 12 little shops and 4 vending machines to pick from.

The cynical remain as ever..cynical, the thankful remain thankful....and the rest are not sure who to follow....

Suck it and see has always been the best advice...and if it doesn't suit your taste , then spit it out....... but don't go snatching it out of the mouths of others.

Haha, I see your point Max.

But question... How is that different than what has happened to the original game throughout all it's patches and fixes?

When first released, all the "is correct, be sure" changed quite a bit. Doubt me? Dig out your original IL2 disc and install it.

Fly the planes, then patch to current game. If you dont notice differences... well then ya aint looking.

So, the question I ask is the same I asked way back then. If this is supposed to be correct, why was there a change? And now that there have been at least 20 changes... which one is/was right? Remember the flying wooden tank Lagg? Has that stayed the same? Or the underperforming FW-190's? Did they stay the same? What about the amazing Super-Rata's? They are the same as they were originally modelled, right?

Now I know what people will say. Oleg made changes because:

1. better coding techniques.
2. more data for a particular aircraft
3. (my personal favorite) pressure from us; the end user.
4. because he hates country X aircraft.
5. because he loves country X aircraft.

But the fact remains, very little has changed in how an airplane is coded from the original game. So again I ask.. if it was sold as "this is correct" then why was it changed? Patches are supposed to fix game bugs not game mistakes. Get what I am saying?

Nothing is perfect. That's just the truth about it. And even taking a pixel plane and making it perform exactly to documented standards cannot take into account that some (similar) planes were just built better than others. Some maintenance crews were better than others and could get better performance out of their plane than the next crew. No two similar aircraft will fly exactly like each other. Even being built in sequence on the same assembly line. The same holds true today. In the real world, nothing is perfect.

However...

At least the modders are leaving the original (Or should I say the changed over and over and over and over and over again by Oleg) planes and only making changes to a plane that will use a new slot. This is how the original game integrity has remained intact. Althought, the original game integrity hasnt remained intact if you really look at it. (I guess it's a matter of perspective) But at very least keeping with the spirit that only non-oleg planes receive FM/DM treatment is vastly different than the history behind game brand X Y Z.

Some of these guys actually built models for a lot of the planes that Oleg put in the game! That's quite different than what hapened in CFS.

In response to Fehler:

I think the concern for modded versions of planes is that its used as a work around to get planes into the game that might not otherwise meet the standards that 1c might want to include in a game. There are lots of great modded planes, and i really don't have a problem with them. Most servers online seem to sift through the BS, and never seem to include planes that are questionable anyway.

I also understand what you are saying about the patches of previous Il2. You also have to understand that as a developer sometimes your goal is to get your product out the door and onto the shelf so you can make money in order to keep making games. In this way, some planes probably got the shorter end, but i've also heard that the Il2 we know today is leaps and bounds over its original premise. Something about strictly flying only Il2s on the eastern front. So many planes were added to a game that really didn't have the capacity to play that way just yet.

The other reality is, in order to do all the testing and double/triple checking of flight models for historical accuracy, it would take many man hours. If the game were only 5 or 6 planes this might be easily achieved. Easy means cost effective. 20 planes becomes quite a task, 50 planes....100 planes....

You can see where this is going. Its far easier to just release your product and make corrections based on your consumer base. This might be far fetched, but i think this game was probably more popular in Europe and SOV/Russia before it was ever known about in the US. Thats why i think a lot of the Russian and German planes are bit more detailed and well armed in some aspects, but that discussion leaves too much for interpretation.

Mods are different, and are really the result of a game that was no longer being developed. So modders, some of them also developers, saw the potential to expand the game. I don't see a problem with it, because most modding sites also enforce strict standards. Someone also mentioned that anything game is hackable, and the existence of mods is simply a scapegoat, at times, for the reality that there are a lot of unemployed professionals with computer science degrees.

this discussion has gone was into OT (look at thread title please )

i will say only this, CRT=2 is a really good protection system, so far I have never seen anyone connect to my CRT=2 server with different mod packs....

cheers

now that i have HSFX working, which server would that be?

the one with two people on it...lol


just kidding. really which server.
I've had trouble getting on any server that has CRT=2, and i'm not sure why, my mods are legit.

Oh Billswagger, I truly understand what you are saying.

Even in our own little group, we test every "new" plane against the data we have and make sure it is within an acceptable tolerance before we use it in our on-line dynamic campaign.

Some mods meet our standards, some dont cut the mustard.

But the same goes on for most of the serious servers, and has since this game was flown originally. For example, some servers do not allow certain aircraft because they are deemed to "tip the balance of play" for one side or the other. The Ki-84C is a fine example of this.

Of course, I am not talking about the casual server that allows open dogfighting against non-combative types of aircraft (P-51's v Corsairs) and things like that. I am talking about the more serious servers that cater to the simulation part of this game; where simulating a particular battle or region is the agenda.

On those types of servers, the "suspect" aircraft are weeded out quite well, and quite rapidly.

Do the mods present a possibility for abuse? Sure.

But the mods bring so much more to the table than that. New maps. New sounds. New graphics. New possibilities.

It is quite hard to condemn the mods because of one or two minor issues when there are so many more things they bring to the table.

"So, what keeps people from making their own mods and bringing them to play?"

CRT=2 (Check runtime 2)

This is the same thing that keeps the stock game "non-cheat-able"

If a particular mod (java class - which is where the flight models and damage models are stored) is not present on a server, but is present on a client, the server kicks the client and he cannot join.

Now, this doesnt stop a client from installing a graphic mod to enhance his experience, like a custom painted cockpit or a sound modification to make his guns sound better to him; something like that. (For example, I have a picture of my wife in nearly every cockpit that I usually fly. She gets a kick out of it, and it adds immersion for me)

But if I were to attempt to join a CRT=2 server with a beefed up plane or weapons, I would get kicked.

Now, nothing is perfect. As a matter of fact, there have been ways around CRT=2 since Oleg designed it. But even in the "stock" servers, CRT=2 can be defeated. Usually, those people are discovered quickly and dealt with properly.

Look, all I am saying is that for me, the mods have added so much more to the game that I would have ever realized possible. And throughout this modded experience, I have yet to run across anything or anyone that was so suspect that I thought he or she was cheating.

But then again, I tend to fly on close pit, full switch servers where I know 99% of the people and have flown with and against them for a very long time now. I was laughing with someone the other day when a person I was fighting made a maneuver and I knew exactly who it was by the way he was flying. And I was right! ROFL! (How's that for knowing your enemy?!?) LOL!

Those arent the kind of people that cheat.

In closing I will say this... for those that have not tried the mods (and mean really given them a try) I feel you are cheating yourself out of many rewarding possibilities. For those that have and had a bad experience, I recommend trying them again and flying in places where the competition is more credible.

Oleg build a beautiful game for us to enjoy. The fact that we sit here years after it's conception and still talk about it can attest to that fact! But Oleg merely opened a door to another world. That world has yet to be fully explored...

Salute!

quote:

Originally posted by BillSwagger:
now that i have HSFX working, which server would that be?

the one with two people on it...lol


just kidding. really which server.
I've had trouble getting on any server that has CRT=2, and i'm not sure why, my mods are legit.

Read here...

quote:

Originally posted by T4T-TheProf:
This versions primary objective was for use with Scorched Earth Campaigns in mind. It can always be used to fly on On-line Servers, but it's not our primary target.

LOL...

Yeah, I am sorry I got off topic...

I just felt that there were some that had reservations about trying HSFX or any other main-line mod package.

---------

The biggest benefit of HSFX is the recompiled .sfs files back to their original compression as Oleg had intended the game to run.

It seems a little less resource demanding and a lot faster loading than the other standard mod packs.

That said, most of the main servers are utilizing the AAA unified installer 1.2 and CRT=2.

To the end user... it simply becomes a matter of choice. I use the AAA pack because:

1. I know most of the guys over there and have for a long time.
2. The servers I like to fly on use their installer.
3. Our online dynamic campaign (Forgotten Skies) uses AAA 1.2 with custom made features for our online war.

There ya have it... LOL Like anyone really wanted to know... ROFL!

Would the 242 Squadron people ever release an SFS-creator tool that would allow offline users to package up their own custom installs into time saving SFS files? It's the one thing I've been hoping for, as I've spent a lot of time putting my own setup together, and it's massive.

quote:

Originally posted by fabianfred:
The cynical remain as ever..cynical, the thankful remain thankful....and the rest are not sure who to follow....

Suck it and see has always been the best advice...and if it doesn't suit your taste , then spit it out....... but don't go snatching it out of the mouths of others.

well that is OT i my book.
Are discussions no allowed? just because we are "thankful", which we are (if you haven't seen than then your vision is quite selective), does that mean we are not allowed to be critical at times? are these issues only allowed for the "in-mods-circle-people" to discuss?
I think not.

Some of you are missing the point.. (perhaps not..) These new Mustangs are under the D-XXNT slot.. but the only thing that ha schanged about the FM is that it is just more stable.. and that is frankly something that, and I dont care what anyone says it's a fact, the P-51s have needed in this sim since FB. The planes were too skittish.. It was almost impossible to say, kick a little rudder to line up a shot.. because the plane was so skittish it was hard to control.. now it is more stable.. and the reason the 50s seem to have more punch is because they are belted with API rounds.. which is historically correct.

I dont think there are too many people who are modding FM's because "in their opinion it doesnt feel right.." From what I can tell most of the new variants have FMs that were tweaked based on a lot of research and longstanding well known issues.

IMO the thing that has kept this all in perspective and that will I seriously believe keep this sim from going the way that many others have once modded, is

A-The complexity of the code itself.
and
B-The overall integrity of this community at large.

Sure we have a few knobs in here.. but for the most part everyone modder and non modder alike just wants the best most accurate sim we can get. Where many differ is on how that accuracy can be delivered.. Some feel that Oleg is or should be the sole source, while others see and rerspect the quality work from other sources who are taking advantage of that cat that has been out of the bag for some time now.

From my perspective, the fact that Oleg has not condemned the whole process speaks volumes. I believe that once he saw that his sim was not being ruined as so many others were while not openly condoning the intitial process he has seen that these mods have been good for the sim overall, but I maintain that the best thing about this sim is us. It has always been that way, even though some of us were spoiled etc.. this community has always striven for accuracy & realism overall and it is that desire that drives most of this and keeps most of us here because even unmodded this is still the best most realistic WWII air combat sinm to date.

Meanwhile... can you get into CRT2 servers with this package.. considering whats in it or is it too diverse?

quote:

I dont think there are too many people who are modding FM's because "in their opinion it doesnt feel right.."

For all what I know, there is clear pattern that FM/DM modding is always primarily driven by people who like that particular aircraft. So with credit to research etc., modding is already done to "improve" the FM/DM, instead of making it ever "worse". No one is taking an independent look on his work, since the work itself is done by the fans of the particular aircraft. So in all modding, you have a big risk of meeting the best ever documented performance parameters for your "improved" aircraft, rather than meeting the average performance on the field.

Now, this is where you can trust HSFX pack much better than anyone else! As the package is mainly for usage in SEOW campaigns, there is a regular counter-test (double checks) from capable and experienced pilots on the oppositie side, similar to testing "captured" aircraft. These tests are rather rigorous, and conducted in the framework of competitive online squadrons. You can't just shout in "your plane is a UFO" or "my plane is borked" (else your squadron commander will shut you up). If a biased plane enters the pack by any way, soon it will be tested and counter-tested by pilots flying with and against that type. In this test nothing is left unnoticed and uncorrected. If there is no agreement over where to adjust performance of a certain plane, there will be no possibility to use it in the campaigns (or the campaing itself will not fly). So usually the planes get tweaked into the middle of the availabel best-worst performance ranges by the HSFX contributors. So I trust the FM/DM/Weapons modelling in this pack the most.

quote:

Originally posted by rnzoli:

quote:

I dont think there are too many people who are modding FM's because "in their opinion it doesnt feel right.."

For all what I know, there is clear pattern that FM/DM modding is always primarily driven by people who like that particular aircraft. So with credit to research etc., modding is already done to "improve" the FM/DM, instead of making it ever "worse". No one is taking an independent look on his work, since the work itself is done by the fans of the particular aircraft. So in all modding, you have a big risk of meeting the best ever documented performance parameters for your "improved" aircraft, rather than meeting the average performance on the field.

Now, this is where you can trust HSFX pack much better than anyone else! As the package is mainly for usage in SEOW campaigns, there is a regular counter-test (double checks) from capable and experienced pilots on the oppositie side, similar to testing "captured" aircraft. These tests are rather rigorous, and conducted in the framework of competitive online squadrons. You can't just shout in "your plane is a UFO" or "my plane is borked" (else your squadron commander will shut you up). If a biased plane enters the pack by any way, soon it will be tested and counter-tested by pilots flying with and against that type. In this test nothing is left unnoticed and uncorrected. If there is no agreement over where to adjust performance of a certain plane, there will be no possibility to use it in the campaigns (or the campaing itself will not fly). So usually the planes get tweaked into the middle of the availabel best-worst performance ranges by the HSFX contributors. So I trust the FM/DM/Weapons modelling in this pack the most.

+10000

quote:

For all what I know, there is clear pattern that FM/DM modding is always primarily driven by people who like that particular aircraft. So with credit to research etc., modding is already done to "improve" the FM/DM, instead of making it ever "worse". No one is taking an independent look on his work, since the work itself is done by the fans of the particular aircraft. So in all modding, you have a big risk of meeting the best ever documented performance parameters for your "improved" aircraft, rather than meeting the average performance on the field.

Granted.. be all that as it may very well be, the improvements to the Mustangs are very well done and long overdue, and they certainly don't render the Musatang to it's best ever performance.. it still over heats, you can still snap a wing if you dive too steeply and try to change direction.. you can still snap roll in a heartbeat if your AoA exceeds the limit.. and the engine still has a glass jaw as it should.. You still have to hit at convergence for best results, and you cant make that convergence too far out either... Overall a very well done mod... and I said what I said to signify that the people doing many of these FM mods don't want to take any aircraft out of it's historic niche.. they just want it to be there.. and I have to say that the new Mustang D-20,25 & 30 NTs do just that. IMO Fehler hit it on the head, and being someone who has fought against the Mustangs for years.. IMO his opinion on the new ones has some weight. I dont think he would bite his toungue of they were turned into studs that were widely different from the stock AC or way outside the historic performance.. and it is still a matter of who is behind the stick.