OK, I blasted the FW-190 before in one of the earlier threads but I've been practicing a bit with it lately and I can definitely see how it is quite a capable machine, and it's quickly becoming my ride of choice. I also tried flying Spitfire Vs in one of the SoV missions and found that I simply could not use my maneuverability to much effect against the 190s, they were just too fast (BTW, did Britain actually try to invade France in 1942? I thought they didn't until 1944 but this mission says otherwise). Also in the Glowing Glory campaign I found my N1K2 having a REALLY hard time against the AI P-51s and P-47s.

So, anyway, is there really much you can do to counter a faster plane with a slower, more maneuverable one? Seems to me that the faster fighter can dictate where and when the fight takes place and there is nothing a slower plane can do about it. Sure, they can try to turn into the attack, but the BnZer can break off at will and, with enough passes, is sure to get somebody. Is speed really THE most important characteristic of a fighter?

When fighting Ai the only thing important is to have faster plane.
Because turning radius means literally nothing... you can outturn any Ai Spitfire in He-111 if you persist turning circles at deck. Speaks volumes.

N1K vs Ai P-51's is one of the hardest setups regarding Ai, since Ai P-51 is very very fast. Similar to FW-190D.
Best chance you have if you lure them to headons at deck, which isn't as easy as it sounds but isn't that tough either, with a little luck & patience it can be done.

Here is the penicillin tactic vs any Ai;
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-7f1199c4.html

Featured planes are Bf-109G (player) vs ace Ai Spit 25's... same tactic works with any Ai in any plane.

The most important feature of the plane is pilot skill. You just need to know how to handle each plane and then you will know how to react when being attacked or engaging different fighters.

Its just a matter of flying to your planes advantages, and sometimes it might even be better to fly so that your opponent can't use their advantages.

quote:

So, anyway, is there really much you can do to counter a faster plane with a slower, more maneuverable one?

yes.
I use a handful of tactics that really can't be described in short, but i will just say its possible if you know how to fly, and what each plane is capable of.

This involves the use of throttle, prop, flaps, and trim. All the essentials, and I'd say if you aren't using all of those tools then you are already at a disadvantage no matter what plane you are in. So get familiar and practice using those in and out of turns.

You can also look up fighter tactics to get a better idea on how to handle a plane at different speeds. At least reading up on those things expands your vocabulary, rather than only relying on one or two moves to get you out of trouble.

For me, it really taught me about the geometry and physics behind some of these moves. There are different moves that become available to a plane at lower speeds, than ones at higher speeds, and vice verse. Knowing them, and learning to anticipate them is what will make you a better pilot no matter the planes.



Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
So, anyway, is there really much you can do to counter a faster plane with a slower, more maneuverable one? Seems to me that the faster fighter can dictate where and when the fight takes place and there is nothing a slower plane can do about it. Sure, they can try to turn into the attack, but the BnZer can break off at will and, with enough passes, is sure to get somebody. Is speed really THE most important characteristic of a fighter?

Even a small advantage in speed lets you zoom a good deal higher. Speed is Life.

The British found that out when the FW's first appeared. Until the Spit IX's the best they could do was to keep at high
speed for the Spit V's whenever in a combat area. There were official orders to that effect.

With AI or online BnZ evasion - a few basic scenarios..

1) If you spot them early go into a gentle turn, keeping an eye on the other plane, the closer they get, start tightening the turn and when you think they're about to shoot, ROLL the plane a little bit to change your direction and then 'flick' it back onto the original path.

A they get close their deflection becomes so great that you'll dissapear under their cowlings when they start to fire. This little roll-n-flick puts you out of their 'predicted' path.

2) If you spot them too late, go into a 4 point 'square' barrel roll, pulling max g's for 1 second on each point. The first 'pull' only after an initial 90 deg roll into the attack.

That should do it...

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:

Even a small advantage in speed lets you zoom a good deal higher. Speed is Life.

The British found that out when the FW's first appeared. Until the Spit IX's the best they could do was to keep at high
speed for the Spit V's whenever in a combat area. There were official orders to that effect.

This is what I figured. I mean, I don't see how all the fancy aerobatic maneuvering in the world will get you any kills against a fast plane that makes repeated diving passes with a speed/altitude advantage, as long as he doesn't try to follow your maneuvers.

EDIT: Posted before I saw Freddie's post, but I don't really see how that strategy gets you in a position to take them out, you might be able to dodge them but they can still just zoom away so you can't get into a decent firing position. When I fly the FW, I can just drag people back to my base at low alt and high speed if they get anywhere near within firing range and continue to chase.

Turning into the attack is a must in defensive maneuver. It cuts the time they can shoot at you and if you turn away
it maximizes his trigger time. If you don't turn then you're a sitting duck. One thing though, don't screw with the
flaps, turn in the vertical instead and keep your energy cause you'll need it.
There's a lot more but I don't feel like all that typing right now ... sorry, just feeling tired.

When the AI are BnZing you....

Watch them closly and when they start their dive, you dive too, directly away from them but at a shallower angle. When they are just about into gun range, make a hard scissor turn, get your nose up and get a snap shot as they over shoot.

It is very important to have speed to do this. You are simply giving a little more time to get your nose up on them as they over shoot.

Be sure to have your gun convergence set way out(500+).

quote:

Originally posted by Frankthetank36:

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:

Even a small advantage in speed lets you zoom a good deal higher. Speed is Life.

The British found that out when the FW's first appeared. Until the Spit IX's the best they could do was to keep at high
speed for the Spit V's whenever in a combat area. There were official orders to that effect.

This is what I figured. I mean, I don't see how all the fancy aerobatic maneuvering in the world will get you any kills against a fast plane that makes repeated diving passes with a speed/altitude advantage, as long as he doesn't try to follow your maneuvers.

EDIT: Posted before I saw Freddie's post, but I don't really see how that strategy gets you in a position to take them out, you might be able to dodge them but they can still just zoom away so you can't get into a decent firing position. When I fly the FW, I can just drag people back to my base at low alt and high speed if they get anywhere near within firing range and continue to chase.

In my experience which is mainly online against human opponents..

Freddie's advice will buy you time but unless you get a lucky snap shot in the bad guys will wear you down and get you in the end.

MGunz speaks the truth, energy is everything regardless of the specific aircraft you or your enemy are flying.

Always try to engage the enemy with an altitude and speed advantage, often this means not rushing straight in at first sight but taking your time to secure a superior position.

In your specific matchup unless you can get the FW's to turn with you at low speed the only advantage you have is a superior climb rate above 2000 meters or so.

Remember its superior climb vs. the enemy aircraft not vs. his cannon shells so dont get brazen with a co-energy fw on your 6 and think you'll handily climb away, you wont.

If jumped by an enemy with superior energy try to gain some initial seperation and then use your climb to chip away at his advantage in small increments.

Remember that its a game of patience as much as anything.

Hope this helps and good luck with those nasty FW's.

If you can keep your opponent in sight you will be relatively safe. I have evaded BnZ attacks by pulling into the vertical. It takes practice to judge the distance correctly but generally, the steeper the attacker's dive, the more effective the maneuver will be.

Unless of course your opponent is a crack shot, which human BnZer's often are. Against the AI it works quite well though.

quote:

Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
So, anyway, is there really much you can do to counter a faster plane with a slower, more maneuverable one?

Yes, you out-manouver them, instead of out-running them.

quote:

Seems to me that the faster fighter can dictate where and when the fight takes place and there is nothing a slower plane can do about it.

It can dictate only WHEN to engage, but not where. E.g., you can go down to grass level (you control your own altitude), or be directly under him when he dives (give him an overspeed risk) or lure hi towards your own lines or dagerous (uneven) terrain where high speed is a risk of crashing into obstackles.

quote:

Sure, they can try to turn into the attack, but the BnZer can break off at will and, with enough passes, is sure to get somebody.

Almost, but not so sure. You can still hope that
- he runs out fo patience and drops his speed to get a better aim at you - you win
- he runs out of fuel or ammo and must leave the engagement - it's a draw
- you can drag him into the sight of your team mates - he loses.

It's frustrating though, because energy is on his side and controls many aspects of the engagement - but not all. In worst case, call him coward a couple of times, this might work for a human pilot, and at least onece I was able to get an AI pilot as well that way, strange things exist in this game by Oleg.

quote:

So, anyway, is there really much you can do to counter a faster plane with a slower, more maneuverable one? Seems to me that the faster fighter can dictate where and when the fight takes place and there is nothing a slower plane can do about it. Sure, they can try to turn into the attack, but the BnZer can break off at will and, with enough passes, is sure to get somebody. Is speed really THE most important characteristic of a fighter?

It depends a lot on the situation but generally speed is life. It's an axiom oft quoted by pilots both real and virtual.

First things first: you really need a wingman. Given equal pilot skill 2 aircraft working together will shoot down 1 aircraft by itself.

The other thing you need to to is evaluate why you keep getting bnz'ed. Are you on the deck turnfighting? That's silly, stop it. Are you cruising around at 2km looking to bounce the silly people turnfighting on the deck? He's probably cruising at 4 or 5 km looking for people like you.

the early FW's have awful climb rates and the spit can out climb it all the way up, so get above him. You have to secure an advantage before entering combat, so climb to altitude and THEN go looking for a fight with your wingman.

If, after planning and through some twist of fate you get bounced from above, well then you need to try to wear his energy advantage down at the same time as you drag him towards friendlies. While he's lining up on you, your wingman should be going for max climb. If he dives on your wingman, then you go for max climb. You have a better climb rate, so chase him UP.

basic definitions
http://members.fortunecity.com/james45/id35.htm



Some people swear on this, but i'd just use it to get some ideas and incorporate it into your stratedgy.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/12...tics-and-Maneuvering

This is a bit wordy, but at least it has picture with the descriptions, and also has some other insight on virtual flying. it also includes various tactics for what you are describing.

When faced with this situation, unless I really do something stupid, this is the general story...

quote:

Freddie's advice will buy you time but unless you get a lucky snap shot in the bad guys will wear you down and get you in the end.

Time is usually not on the attackers side, when online - continual avoidance eventually frustrates the attacker into making making mistakes... - If you're smart you'll wear him down... if he's smart as well the duel will end in a draw, so you 'win' by surviving the attack.

If you fly the FW190 long enough, you'll eventually discover that the best 'attacking position' is when your target is on your six - wierd I know, but give it time.

I don't know about you guys, but online I just love to drive by.
Just make a pass drill them a new hole between ears without further notice and that's it. Any situation where your target is aware of you making a pass on him is potentially dangerous... as Freddie says, he will stall you as long as possible and there is a great chance he does it in order to lure you on his buddy's 12 o c.

I also enjoy big furballs a la free style... can be fun especially if you live thru it .

quote:

If you fly the FW190 long enough, you'll eventually discover that the best 'attacking position' is when your target is on your six - wierd I know, but give it time.

C'mon Freddie...

If you have somebody on your 6 you have already made a mistake and are in trouble.

The idea of purposely luring somebody to your rear quarters so you can dazzle them with some fancy pilot stuff is a silly notion and doesn't wash, especially in a FW190.

Fly the 190 as it was designed, fast. Engage your opponents from a superior altitude, blast them with your cannon and then extend to regain your altitude advantage.

If you want to turn circles with spitfires in a german plane a BF109 is a much better platform, although I find angles fighting a poor tactic. There is too much of a variable getting a firing solution not to mention the ever present wingman who gets you from dead 6 as soon as commit yourself and burn your energy.

A successful fighter pilot is an assassin regardless of aircraft. Attack from behind, from the sun or from your opponents blind spot. Kill him before he even knows your there and fly away to hunt the next.

respectfully, my two cents...

I know what you're talking about, the 'wulf is great for luring people over to your base (especially the A model since it is incredibly durable, although the D's engine seems pretty fragile just like everything else with an inline liquid cooled engine). Do rolls every second or two and they can never really line up for a firing position. Before I started using this thing I flew mostly 109s, Spits, Zeros, etc and usually got a mediocre 1-to-1 kill to loss ratio (I've had the game for a couple of months), now I feel like I'm virtually uncatchable in the 190 if I watch my back, cruise around at 3000m, and always go for the highest enemy. Even when I go for the guys TnBing on the deck and get a bandit on my tail after getting a kill (or just making a pass), I usually find it pretty easy to deal with him using the methods I mentioned above. The only things that have really given me trouble so far are P-51s and other FWs. I've had similar results flying the P-38 in Pacific missions. It is really starting to feel like a cat-and-mouse game, with the BnZers being cats and the TnBers being mice.

quote:

Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
I know what you're talking about, the 'wulf is great for luring people over to your base (especially the A model since it is incredibly durable, although the D's engine seems pretty fragile just like everything else with an inline liquid cooled engine). Do rolls every second or two and they can never really line up for a firing position. Before I started using this thing I flew mostly 109s, Spits, Zeros, etc and usually got a mediocre 1-to-1 kill to loss ratio (I've had the game for a couple of months), now I feel like I'm virtually uncatchable in the 190 if I watch my back, cruise around at 3000m, and always go for the highest enemy. Even when I go for the guys TnBing on the deck and get a bandit on my tail after getting a kill (or just making a pass), I usually find it pretty easy to deal with him using the methods I mentioned above. The only things that have really given me trouble so far are P-51s and other FWs. I've had similar results flying the P-38 in Pacific missions. It is really starting to feel like a cat-and-mouse game, with the BnZers being cats and the TnBers being mice.

Naw, it's whoever has the altitude advantage is the cat, and the person below is the mouse.

Everyone loves to hate on TnB but angles tactics are often necessary or advantageous, depending on your opponent's aircraft of choice.

So then why don't you see people at 2000m to counter the guys on the deck, and people at 4000m to counter the guys at 2000m, and people at 6000m to counter the guys at 4000m, and guys at 8000m to counter the guys at 6000m (well, you get the idea)

Anyway I haven't really seen anyone beyond like 4000m yet. Sometime I'm gonna get in a heavy bomber, climb to its ceiling, and clobber their airfield cuz no one goes to those altitudes.