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I APOLOGIZE SO MUCH FOR MIXING UP IMPERVIOUS WITH 0% CHANCE OF HITTING SOMETHING SOMETHING VITAL AND THINKING THAT APPLIED TO THE HE-111 REAR SECTION IN RELATION TO .303 MGS AND I'M SO HAPPY THAT YOU ALL MAY ONE DAY FORGIVE ME FOR MY SINS AND Xiolablu3 I JUST CAN'T EXPRESS MY JOY THAT YOU GOT HOME ALIVE AFTER BEING HIT.
------------------------------------------ "Ah yes, Michael," Bader replied, "But these particular Fockers were Messerschmitts..." |
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IL2 Moderator |
I forgive you Chunky,,
  -------------------------------------------------------------  "Over Dieppe, the wing was immediately bounced by a hundred FW 190s and a few Me 109s. I heard Johnson effing and blinding as he broke 610 into a fierce attack. I was hard at it dodging 190s, but I found time to speak sharply to Johnson about his foul language." - WingCo Jaime Jameson 12 Group Spitfire |
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That is the key. You want the raid to jettison it's ordinance and turn back, or at least cause severe disruption to the bomber formation so it is more vulnerable. That is why head on attacks were effective: they unnerved the bomber pilots and broke up the formation. P/O Hatter DFC, Green Section Leader, No145 Squadron, Sector "A" 11 Group, RAF Fighter Command. www.tangmerepilots.co.uk |
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If the thread wants to derail itself, let it. This is starting to get interesting. On a side note, thanks for the advice on the Stukas. They ARE easy flamers. I managed to pull off an ace-in-a-day because of this advice. I don't suppose there is an info source telling me the weak spots of all the craft like this is there? |
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Some might what to do some research on what the guns of RAF fighters were set to during BoB. Might explain why it was hard to shoot down bombers.
 The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the best of my knowledge, always. swept wings on the Me262 to correct CG problem A Sealion success is a delusional fantasy |
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See the other thread Parrot. Posted in the wrong thread.
The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the best of my knowledge, always. swept wings on the Me262 to correct CG problem A Sealion success is a delusional fantasy |
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The "Dowding Spread" was designed to give even bad shots a chance of hitting, but, in the Battle of France and later, the better shots harmonized the guns at closer range for greater destructive effect. A real Battle of Britain British fighter pilot was shocked when I posted my favored convergence range at 50 yards for the .303 in BATTLE OF BRITAIN II. I can't remember what the original "Dowding Spread" convergence was---maybe somebody else recalls? I think it was around 400 yards.
The key with .303 ammunition is to set the convergence at 100 meters where it still has a reasonably flat trajectory and still has some velocity for penetration. At close range any rifle-caliber shell has power for tearing up airplanes. The game Hurricane I rips Bf 109Es or Bf 110Cs to pieces. Both were lightly constructed and vulnerable.  |
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Hurricanes had their main fuel tanks in the wings just outside the cockpit. And the fear of burning to death was a very real fear for hurri pilots. Bailing out of a burning Hurri with both sides burning was described as jumping through a tunnel of fire. Yea those guys in WW2 had guts!
"The FW-190 is a small aircraft period. It flys like its huge, It hits like its huge but in dimensions its tiny. Goering didnt call it his deadly horse fly for nothing"-Me |
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IL2 Moderator |
Thats interesting, I alwyas thought the Hurricanes fuel tank was in the same place as the Spitfire's - Right in front of the pilot.
The SPitfire fuel tank was placed perfectly for aerodynamics and handling, right over the wing and COG, however very undesirable should your plane catch fire. Many SPit pilots were burned badly through WW2. See the only VC awarded to a Fighter Pilot during the BOB, this was however a Hurricane.... http://www.victoriacross.co.uk/nicolson.html 'On 16 August 1940 near Southampton, Flight lieutenant Nicolson's Hurricane was fired on by a Messerschmitt 110, injuring the pilot in one eye and one foot. His engine was also damaged and the petrol tank set alight. As he struggled to leave the blazing machine he saw another Messerschmitt, and managing to get back into the bucket seat, pressed the firing button comtinuing firing until the enemy plane dived away to destruction. Not until then did he bale out., and when he landed in a field , he was unable to release his parachute owing to his badly burned hands. Additional Information:. His courage showed that although his aircraft was on fire, he stayed with it until he had shot down the enemy plane. Nicholson found it difficult to open the cockpit cover of his burning aircraft. Once clear, of the plane, as he descended in the Parachute, he feigned death when an enemy aircraft pilot looked as if he was considering machine-gunning him. His will power brought him back from virtual death, after his doctors had given up on him recovering. He returned to flying in 1941. 1942 saw him in India. and in August 1943 he was leading a squadron of fighters in Birma. During this time he won the Distinguished Flying Cross. Wing Commander Nicolson's life ended when the Liberator, in which he was flying as observer, crashed into the Bay of Bengal after catching fire on the 2nd of May 1945.. He was the only a fighter pilot to be awarded the Victoria Cross during the whole of World War Two. ' ------------------------------------------------------------- "Over Dieppe, the wing was immediately bounced by a hundred FW 190s and a few Me 109s. I heard Johnson effing and blinding as he broke 610 into a fierce attack. I was hard at it dodging 190s, but I found time to speak sharply to Johnson about his foul language." - WingCo Jaime Jameson 12 Group Spitfire |
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We can compare them or transfer experience because all aircraft fly by the same principles and physics. Understand? The difference is the forces involved which tends to speed the rate at which things go bad. In fact if you look at trainers, most of them have worse characteristics than the aircraft they are designed to prepare the student pilot for flying. Great example of this is the Piper Tomahawk or the T-6 Texan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-38_Tomahawk
http://www.warbirdalley.com/articles/T6-sf.htm So now you know how we can compare a puny 150 hp GA aircraft to a 1600hp fire breathing monster. It is your perception of airplanes that needs adjustment. We could very well be talking about a 1600hp pussycat and a 150 hp fire breathing monster! All the best, Crumpp   Our Museum glorifies no state, but strives to use these aircraft as a memorial for all lost in war. Our freedom can only be truly appreciated when held in contrast to those who sought to destroy it. Our staff is proudly made up of people from many cultures and religions. Click the photos for details of our projects. "Those who do not remember history are destined to repeat it." - Winston Churchill |
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Wrong thread Crumpp.
  I didn't know the T-6 and PA-38 were General Aviation a/c. Thanks. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the best of my knowledge, always. swept wings on the Me262 to correct CG problem A Sealion success is a delusional fantasy |
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The Hurricane's main fuel tank was located right in front of the pilot with an additional smaller tank in each wing. There was no firewall between the fuselage tank and the cockpit. The fuselage tank was self-sealing, but had no other protection. If the fuselage tank caught fire, the pilot had better have been wearing gloves and goggles. His only hope was a fast exit.
For full details of Hurricane structure, see restoration photos in this site: http://www.hawker-restorations-ltd.co.uk/ |
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Well now you know. Today has not been a waste for you because you have learned something. It's posted in this one, btw. You can take the knowledge with you to the other thread!  All the best, Crumpp Our Museum glorifies no state, but strives to use these aircraft as a memorial for all lost in war. Our freedom can only be truly appreciated when held in contrast to those who sought to destroy it. Our staff is proudly made up of people from many cultures and religions. Click the photos for details of our projects. "Those who do not remember history are destined to repeat it." - Winston Churchill |
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Always go for the cockpit... 12x 303s = instant pilot kill...
[SAF]Zoom Iron hand's my thing |
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IL2 Moderator |
A few additional observations.
The concept of using a vic as a single unit using pattern harmonisation at 300 to 400 yards (outside the effective range of mid 1930s single flexibly mounted rifle calibre defensive guns) was developed when the anticipated firepower per fighter was likely to be four rifle calibre guns with almost no margin of performance of the fighter over the bomber with attacks from the rear after a long chase being the only attack mode. This would bring 12 guns to bear (or the same as each Hurricane IIb). By 1939, with most of the biplane fighters in RAF service removed from the frontline apart from in colonial outposts the policy was outdated. The Battle of Britain sounded its death knell and the old procedures were history before its end. Lutwaffe single engined fighters had light armament without, as far as I know, a road map for replacement in place as soon. Many of the mid 1930s Zerstorer desins also initially projected only four nose mounted light guns. The experience in Spain changed that, but even then the change from just four rifle calibre guns had only just taken place in 1940 for the 109. The USA also projected a move to cannon, but the search for a working cannon wasn't very frtuitful before a decision for mass production had to be made so the 50 cal was used. Some export Hurricanes received 4 50 calibre weapons, which was potentially much more effective than the Hurricane I. The call for 12 rifle calibre guns as an insurance against lacking cannon, and given no licence or production for 50 calibre weapons also dated from 1937. 4 20mm cannon has at least twice the potency. With the Hurricane IIb and IIc you see the insurance policy and the desired solution, although by that point the real desired solution was what the Typhoon was -intended- to be. Hawker would probably rather made the Tornado, though. |
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Please show me where I posted in THIS thread the original comment.  Now what does your Wiki link say on the "Traumahawk"? Oh yes, The Tomahawk was Piper's attempt at creating an affordable two-place trainer."" Tell me who was the original user of the T-6 trainer. One would have to include the P-51, Spitfire, F4U and all the other flying warbirds using your definition of a GA a/c. I think you maybe right Xio.  The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the best of my knowledge, always. swept wings on the Me262 to correct CG problem A Sealion success is a delusional fantasy |
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IL2 Moderator |
No, that was MY error. |
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So in your mind, just what is a General Aviation aircraft? Now these guys might not have as much experience in aviation as you but I think their opinion is worth examining.
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/GENERAL_AVIATION/GA_OV.htm
Just like the C-150 series, Beechcraft Skipper, Mooney M-10, MS880, and scores of other aircraft, General Aviation aircraft. Facts are they all fly by exactly the same principles. Our Museum glorifies no state, but strives to use these aircraft as a memorial for all lost in war. Our freedom can only be truly appreciated when held in contrast to those who sought to destroy it. Our staff is proudly made up of people from many cultures and religions. Click the photos for details of our projects. "Those who do not remember history are destined to repeat it." - Winston Churchill |
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I performed some tests some time ago. No one in sane mind ever turns when he has any other option. ~ DKoor |
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