I personally don´t like that argument. Someone in a chute is defenceless, thats almost like shooting at refugee trecks, or puting civilians to the wall to be shot. Certainly it was done, but is it neccesary to bring out and show the ugliest sides of war in a game?
I know that when it comes out that certain groups do that, that other squadrons do not wish to fly with these people. In your view they won what?
I would not even consider allowing chute shooting as that is going to heat up tempers, that things can get a bit unpleasant.

As to intentional ramming, that is in this game a silly thing to do, as you gain no points, and like chute shooting it anoyes people very much.

I for myself get rather ****ed off if I manage to bring back a bomber that is heavly damaged has managed to fight off enemy fighters, and then is rammed by someone who is uncapable of shooting the plane down, but is only able to ram.
That is for me a reason to leave, and a reason not to join if that person is seen again on the server.

Maybe one should think about that too, let that go through, and think what kind of people you will have left on the server? As others who dispise this kind of behavor will not join.

quote:

Originally posted by RSS-Martin:As to intentional ramming, that is in this game a silly thing to do, as you gain no points, and like chute shooting it anoyes people very much.

I for myself get rather ****ed off if I manage to bring back a bomber that is heavly damaged has managed to fight off enemy fighters, and then is rammed by someone who is uncapable of shooting the plane down, but is only able to ram.
That is for me a reason to leave, and a reason not to join if that person is seen again on the server..

Well due to our squadron theme "Taiatari" or body crashing (ramming) is something we often do when flying against heavies (B17/24/29's) over Japan and on rare occassion elsewhere (like werewolf missions if late German, rarely over New Guinea). In kind we try to do it right, IOW, Clip the enemy to bring him down and bail out.....The goal on such missions is not to die like in Kamikaze, yet to make a trade off in aircraft.

However, we ONLY do it if part of the mission theme, just like Kamikaze'ing a ship....If part of the mission, we do it.

That perhaps the point really being discussed here......It's not to fly as this guy did, or that guy, or even how they all did in some cases......It's about flying to the constraints the mission or server designer set down and abiding by his rules.

K2

quote:

make sure that everybody understands that they don't have the right to not become victims of discouraged behaviour.

A very few things are more annoying than players in an endless argument about who did what wrong and how they suck.

Lebillfish if it is stated in a mission that is something else. As to doing that flying German planes, well, that really happend at the very end and only very few times. That is more like looking for a needle in a haystack. What you mean are the so called "Ramjäger" not werewolf missions that is something else. Only the odd thing that I have seen online is that it was usually Allied planes doing the ramming, be it while I was flying Japanese bombers or German bombers. Finding material of allies ramming enemy planes, should take a bit to find if anything at all.

In those cases I always had the feeling the pilot who rammed went by the motto, "well if I can´t shoot him down I will ram him"
In none of the cases that I had did the ramming pilot survive. So in my eyes he was just trying to get peoples tempers up. Not really what I would understand as having fun.
During my time with the KG30 as it exsisted, any squadron doing stuff like that was a no go for future games. Two squadrons I know of, when they where seen showing up on a server members of the KG30 would leave. That all due to chute shooting and ramming.

Air war over Russia saw more than one pilot ram a bomber to stop an attack that bullets did not. It was known
as taran in Russia. Some survived even multiple tarans in one day and many medals were given for this brave and
heroic act. Should doing so be cause of kick from a historic server?

Remember that these were mostly ever people who were defending their own, not just some little ghit ready to refly ASAP.

IRL these acts were decorated by their own side and become to some extent part of cultural history. There was more than
one thread on exactly this subject back in the times when Oleg did post here, it is not an act of shame to say the least.

Wikipedia link:

quote:

Nine rammings took place on the very first day of the German invasion of the Soviet Union, one within the first hour. At 0425 hours on 22 June 1941, Lieutenant I. I. Ivanov drove his Polikarpov I-16 into the tail of an invading Heinkel He 111. Ivanov didn't survive but was posthumously awarded the gold star, Hero of the Soviet Union.[5] The Soviets eventually developed tactics that gave attacking pilots at least a small chance of survival, including targeting an enemy plane's tail, rudder, and other horizontal control surfaces with their own plane's propeller. A few planes were even equipped with special steel propellers for such attacks. Lieutenant Boris Kobzan survived a record four ramming attacks in the war. Alexander Khlobystov made three. Seventeen other Soviet pilots were credited with two successful ramming attacks. About 200 taran attacks were made by Soviets between the beginning of Operation Barbarossa and the middle of 1943, when enough modern aircraft had been produced to make the tactic obsolete (even if Russian fighter pilots were still trained to perform it). However, Evgeny Stepanov stated in an interview that more than 580 taran attacks were made by VVS pilots in WWII.

quote:

On 18 August 1940, RAFVR Sergeant Bruce Hancock of No.6 SFTS from RAF Windrush used his Avro Anson aircraft to ram a Heinkel He.111P; there were no survivors.[6]

On 15 September 1940, Flight Sergeant Ray Holmes of No. 504 Squadron RAF used his Hawker Hurricane to destroy a Dornier Do-17 bomber over London by ramming but at the loss of his own aircraft (and almost his own life) in one of the defining moments of the Battle of Britain.

quote:

On November 2, 1940, Greek Air Force pilot Marinos Mitralexis shot down one Italian Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 bomber, then, out of ammunition, brought another down by smashing its rudder with the propeller of his PZL P.24 fighter. Both aircraft were forced into emergency landings, and Mitralexis used the threat of his pistol to take the four-man bomber crew prisoner. Mitralexis was promoted in rank and awarded medals.

This next one I had not before read about. Those men sacrificed themselves to stop superior enemy fighters!

quote:

On 6 April 1941, the first day of Invasion of Yugoslavia 36th group of the 5th fighter regiment of the Yugoslav Royal Air Force, equipped with obsolete Hawker Fury biplanes scrambled to defend their airfield, Režanovačka Kosa, from a strafing attack by aprox. 30 Bf-109 and Bf-110s. In the ensuing uneven dogfight at least three Yugoslav pilots: Captain Konstantin Jermakov, Captain Vojislav Popović and Lieutenant Milorad Tanasić rammed a German fighter each with fatal results on both sides

quote:

The Japanese also practiced ramming, both by individual initiative and by policy. Individual initiative was involved in the bringing down of a lone B-17 Flying Fortress The Flying Swede on 8 May 1942 by a Nakajima Ki-43 fighter plane. After three of the Japanese fighters had each made two attack passes without decisive results, the bomber's pilot, Major Robert N. Keatts, made for the shelter of a nearby rain squall. Loath to let the bomber escape, Sgt. Tadao Oda executed a head-on ramming attack, known as taiatari (体当たり, tai-atari?, "body strike").[11] Both aircraft were destroyed with no survivors. Sergeant Oda was posthumously promoted to lieutenant for his sacrifice.[12]

Starting in August 1944, several Japanese pilots flying Kawasaki Ki-45 and other fighters engaging B-29 Superfortresses found that ramming the very heavy bomber was a practical tactic.[13] From that experience, in November 1944 a "Special Attack Unit" was formed using Kawasaki Ki-61s that had been stripped of most of their weapons and armor so as to quickly achieve high altitude.[14] Three successful, surviving ramming pilots were the first recipients of the Bukosho, Japan's equivalent to the Victoria Cross or Medal of Honor, an award which had been inaugurated on 7 December 1944 as an Imperial Edict by Emperor Hirohito.[15][16] Membership in the Special Attack Unit was seen as a final assignment; the pilots were expected to perform ramming attacks until death or serious injury stopped their service.

quote:

Two rammings (Bulgarian: Таран taran) were performed by Bulgarian fighter pilots defending Sofia against Allied bombers in 1943 and 1944. The first one to do so was poruchik (Senior Lieutenant, posthumously elevated to Captain) Dimitar Spisarevsky on 20 December 1943.

quote:

Late in World War II, the Sonderkommando Elbe used ramming to try and regain control of the air. Although some pilots succeeded in destroying bombers, Allied numbers were not significantly reduced.

quote:

On May 10, 1945 over Okinawa, Marine Lieutenant Robert R. Klingman and three other pilots of VMF-312 climbed to intercept a Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu ("Nick") twin-engined heavy fighter flying reconnaissance at 25,000 feet (7,600 m), but the "Nick" began climbing higher. Two of the FG-1D Corsairs ceased their pursuit at 36,000 feet (11,000 m), but Marine Captain Kenneth Reusser and his wingman Klingman continued to 38,000 feet (12,000 m), expending most of their .50 caliber ammunition to lighten their aircraft. Reusser scored hits on the "Nick's" port engine, but ran out of ammunition, and was under fire from the Japanese rear gunner. Klingman lined up for a shot at a distance of 50 feet (15 m) when his guns jammed due to the extreme cold. He approached the "Nick" three times to damage it with his propeller, chopping away at his opponent's rudder, rear cockpit, and right stabilizer. The Toryu spun down to 15,000 feet (4,600 m) where its wings came off. Despite missing five inches (13 cm) from the ends of his propeller blades, running out of fuel and having an aircraft dented and punctured by debris and bullet holes, Klingman safely guided his Corsair to a dead-stick landing.[18] He was awarded the Navy Cross.[19]

I know that the Russians did do this. But the ones that have rammed me where either sporting British or US markings. Even if the odd time it did happen, to put it so as if this happened on a regular basis does not ring true with me.

Thats almost like the bit about machine gunning survivers in the water from a u-boat. One case is known and that fellow was punished.

Western alleid planes ramming? Over occupied terretory? Where propaganda has the crews worked up what might happen if they are captured? Ramming over the Pacific where chances of finding bailed crews in that wide area of water are slim? Let alone the thoughts the crews had of falling into Japanese hands?
Do you really think that the odd exception to the rule is that changeable?

Of coarse in a game you have a refly button, who cares how often you die, any loony manouver goes.....

Why is it then that on the majority of servers people get really happy when they are rammed?

Now list your odd-ball cases please.

quote:

Originally posted by RSS-Martin:
Hmm I would keep rules simple and few. The only two that I would take are no team killing, especially in the spawn area, and no shooting at chutes, thats about it. Everything else can be handeled by the map maker. Although maybe add also proper markings, as it is anoying to see Zeros with German markings, or Fw190s with British markings. But that is almost like fighting windmills...

+1

quote:

Originally posted by RSS-Martin:
Western alleid planes ramming? Over occupied terretory? Where propaganda has the crews worked up what might happen if they are captured? Ramming over the Pacific where chances of finding bailed crews in that wide area of water are slim? Let alone the thoughts the crews had of falling into Japanese hands?

2 British over Britain, 1 was directly over London and there is a marker still
1 US over US-occupied Okinawa and he landed there.

MANY over Russia to save lives in cities targeted for bombing, and Germany, and Japan. It's a matter of Heart.

If you have dweebs ramming just for fun that is another matter but especially against bombers by c.r.@.p fighters
it should be allowed.

What should be done on DF servers is to delay the person ramming from refly for at least 10 minutes.

O.k. that would be acceptable, as I always had the feeling those ramming where doing it for fun, as you see it time and again that they where only ramming. 10min delay min. would deal with the fun rammers.

But still I have the opinion compared to the Japanese, western allied rammings where very scarce. Only on servers like Zeke vs. Wildcats at times you had the impression that US planes where the main ones ramming and not the Japanese.

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:

quote:

Originally posted by RSS-Martin:
Western alleid planes ramming? Over occupied terretory? Where propaganda has the crews worked up what might happen if they are captured? Ramming over the Pacific where chances of finding bailed crews in that wide area of water are slim? Let alone the thoughts the crews had of falling into Japanese hands?

2 British over Britain, 1 was directly over London and there is a marker still
1 US over US-occupied Okinawa and he landed there.

MANY over Russia to save lives in cities targeted for bombing, and Germany, and Japan. It's a matter of Heart.

If you have dweebs ramming just for fun that is another matter but especially against bombers by c.r.@.p fighters
it should be allowed.

What should be done on DF servers is to delay the person ramming from refly for at least 10 minutes.

Yeah Gunz, it certainly did happen. Here is a full account of Sergeant Pilot Ray Holmes's ramming of a Dornier over London, which he believed was attempting to bomb Buckingham palace, being very nearby. I believe the other guy was a Wing Commander, but don't recall the name. Must have taken some balls lol.

RIP Mr Holmes, ~S~

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...es/article538275.ece

Well those incedents are just like the German Ramjäger rather rare ones. To take them as a rule that ramming happened in general is a bit far flung? Have a look at some online games, and you think ramming was actually more common with the allies than the Japanese. Or is someone sudjesting that was the case?
If it where so common wonder why the US where then so shocked at the Japanese ramming, that they made sure that during the war no reports of that got out to the public.
Maybe some should think of that before sudjesting that the unusual was common?

Hi Martin. If you are referring to me, then no.....I am certainly not suggesting it happened often. It was of course very rare with British and US pilots, and certainly a last resort. There were the obvious cultural differences, and we obviously had no "Bushido" code like the Japanese. If you read the account I posted (its a good read) Holmes did so because he had run out of ammunition. I don't think you can disagree that it was incredibly brave.

Just saying that in desperate situations it did happen.....I know of only 2 cases of the RAF doing this, there may be more but I am unaware of them.

Good points all...

To take care of the griping and cussing..why not disable the chat bar?

No Tk allowed

No other rules...and let it all sort itself out..and it will...

Good maps make a difference....

Old Pudfark......

My Proper Code of Conduct?

Respect above all, don't make what you would not to be made at you... friendship and teamplay with all the other pilots UNTIL they respect me:

1) guys who use trim on slider and make 15G turns in a 109G6 at 600km/h... they lose my respect

2) guys who flame over the chat for kill stealing ALSO AFTER the excuse by the other guy (sometimes me )

3) Headons... in my squad we never do headons (stupid tactic when you can fight using your experience)... so when I guy shot against me in that way I start to see red... I've to shot it down mocking him.

4) Taking a '44 plane then all the other pilots in the dogfight server (usually training server) are flying on '41 planes... > kick without any explanation.

5) They fly spitfire at 1000m and whine on the big bad wulf... on the opposite side if they fly spitfire at 7000m they have all my respect, really

PS: If in the map there is a Spit and 10 hurricanes I hunt only the spit guy...

quote:

Originally posted by Tuphlandng:

quote:

Originally posted by Manu-6S:
My Proper Code of Conduct?

Respect above all, don't make what you would not to be made at you... friendship and teamplay with all the other pilots UNTIL they respect me:

I cant understand your post The respect and Friendship and team play part sure. But the rest ??
And tactic's come with experience!

I mean that I change my code of conduct if one of the option above happens... I'm the nicest amd more friendly pilot on the server but I go berserk if they don't play in the way I'm used to play.. this is one of the reasons I don't fly anymore on public server.

Tuphlandng,

"Reprimands" ?? Ain't that why we have bullets,bombs and rockets??

Seriously, most of the time I fly with my squad and I fly all the time with my squad tag....
My actions represent my squad at all times on line and in Forums...we don't reprimand ourselves or others...

Accidents in this sim are frequent...along with misjudgement...poor visability and experience levels...

Intentional bad behavior merits a kick or ban. There is no excuse for bad language anywhere.

So bottom line, what you can't convince with bullets, can be done with a kick/ban...

Reprimands are just "spanking" in my opinion...

Pudfark....aka: NGW-Sancho

quote:

Originally posted by Pudfark:
Tuphlandng,

"Reprimands" ?? Ain't that why we have bullets,bombs and rockets??

Seriously, most of the time I fly with my squad and I fly all the time with my squad tag....
My actions represent my squad at all times on line and in Forums...we don't reprimand ourselves or others...

Accidents in this sim are frequent...along with misjudgement...poor visability and experience levels...

Intentional bad behavior merits a kick or ban. There is no excuse for bad language anywhere.

So bottom line, what you can't convince with bullets, can be done with a kick/ban...

Reprimands are just "spanking" in my opinion...

Pudfark....aka: NGW-Sancho

+1


As to the ramming bit, the thing is what is gained by ramming? in most cases both planes and the crews are dead, what is the gain for the rammers team?
Yes I take my time to fly so that I can make a hopefully not predictable route to the target and back again. That means depending on the map one is flying one way + 30mins. Most times I have been ramed shortly before reaching my home base, so that means sometimes almost an hours flying time, maybe having nursed a badly damaged plane home, just to be ramed with both planes destroyed is for me a reason to think if it is worth while to start a second time. If I get shot down well, someone had more luck than me and that is fine, enemy destroyed but no plane lost for the own team. That is ok. But just raming for the fun of it is not exactly a motivation to fly bombers. On certain servers if certain ground targets are not destroyed the map can not be won, so what do you think happens when the bomber pilots think it is not worth while flying?
One could tranfer that tactic to fighters too waiting just out side of an enemy base and any plane trying to land ram out of the air, the effect is the same.

Real fun is it if you are ramed by a friendly plane after such a long flight had that too.

This hero went through a squadron of 10 Ju88s and took out the lead plane. Markings where clearly visable, he must have clearly seen the other planes as he passed really close, just to ram after a 45min flight just short of our airbase. These are people that really raise the fun level.

I hope you understand what I mean now?
Nothing against a fair kill, but just being taken out for the fun of it with no use for any team is just stupid and a sure way to have the bomber pilots leave.

Back in the 90's I learned that online squads do have exclusive events (ladders and online wars for points) is because
of the juvenile stunts that get pulled when you let unknowns in. The best answer then is to play by invitation only.

Still squadron members do play on open servers and pick up an honorable player here and there by good association,
even the opposition players might get invited. It is well worth putting up with the jerks when you find real friends
**just as in real life** one good friend is worth having to off and on deal with many sh-heads.

Open DF is like a public pool where you swim in some percent water mixed with urine and people jumping on top of people.
IMO in general coop missions are far better than DF.

What an excellent thread!

Here is the way I like to play and some of my thoughts on the subject.

-Chute shooting. It happens. It bothers quite a few but for some not too much. I guess it depends on the scenario but in a normal DF server it probably shouldn't happen. That being said I will admit to the occasional 'laundry hunting' against someone that has become a complete bother.

-Ramming. I think intentional ramming is the problem. Again, this stuff happens but when it is happening repeatedly it begins to frustrate the other players and you will soon see the mass exodus towards the exit sign.

-Rules vs guidelines. In my squad we use 'guidelines' that give a list of undesired behaviours in the server. In the past we have used hard set rules but that lead to the "I'm kicked but I didn't really break the rules" argument. Caused a lot of ****ing matches. Using guidelines allows us a little more flexibility in the administration of the server. That also adds to our sportsman-like conduct guideline. And it happens both ways. -We have had to reprimand and 'discipline' squad members for not following the expected guidelines as well as other guests. On the whole though we find guidelines to be the route to go due to the flexibility and a little discretion. That however raises to issue of who should have administrative rights to the server. We limit the administrator priviledge to more senior members with a more experienced and hopefully mature attitude towards on-line flying. That's not to say that things sometimes happen that really shouldn't.

-Team killing is definitely not on. Depending on the server software you can limit this.

-Shoulder shooting. Don't like it!! If I am flying on comms with a squad mate as a wingman then OK, but otherwise, back-off!

-Historical markings for sure.

-Vulching and strafing are OK so long as it is stated in the guidelines. If I don't like it I shouldn't join the server.

-Discipline. We try to follow the three strikes and you're out rule. Meaning that the offending player should be warned of the 'offence' at least a few times before the kick or ban comes. In most cases a simple reminder is enough to set things right and usually an apology is forthcoming. There are times though when players are there simply to be disruptive and that is where the discretion and decisions by the admin are required.

-Honour and respect is generally the rule. If you don't like it happening to you, don't do it to them.

One thing no one else has mentioned yet is the use of lights. I know this can open a whole new can of worms as I remember a thread about this a long time ago but it should be mentioned in your code of conduct. Some players feel that the use of lights is a signal of surrender or an acceptance of defeat. In other servers it doesn't matter. It comes down to the honour and respect theme but I would make it clear in the brief which ever way you choose. Historically I don't believe that this has any bearing but rather depends on the individual and the theatre, just my opinion.

Sorry for the long post...gonna have to hold off from the Lakeports before I post.

~S~

Here's what I don't get:

-People who get angry about chute shooting. I mean WHO CARES? The only difference between getting shot in your chute and bailing out is that if you get shot you get 10% of your score, whereas if you bail in friendly territory you get 50%. Does your score mean that much to you?

And re: bomber ramming: If it comes down to me ramming this bomber or him hitting the targets to win the map, you can be damn sure I'll ram him every time.