Hi all,

Perhaps 70% of the German war capacity in WW2 was directed towards Russia on the East Front?

il2 has 'opened my eyes' as regards the East Front.

And were 80% of German casualties inflicted by the Russians?

And did this also apply to the Luftwaffe?

The eventual massive might of the Russian war machine was IMO very significant.

I'm just looking at historical perspectives here.


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Sorry double post

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ICDP,

quote:

Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Hi all,

Perhaps 70% of the German war capacity in WW2 was directed towards Russia on the East Front?

il2 has 'opened my eyes' as regards the East Front.

Yes, I believe this is about right for division of the German ground forces.

quote:

Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:And were 80% of German casualties inflicted by the Russians?

Once again this could be a fair estimate regarding the German combatant losses.

quote:

And did this also apply to the Luftwaffe?

Prior to USAAF heavey bomber raids over Germany the LW were indeed mostly engaged in the eastern front. By around early 1943 the LW day fighters were beginning to move west to face the massive bomber raids. If we look at the overall number of aircraft divided between fronts in 1943-1944 it would have been split fairly evenly between east and west. Having said that by far the biggest majority of day fighters were based in the west or in Reich Defence units.

I think the overall ratio of losses was around 4:1 in favour of the western front from mid 1943 until late 1944. Though it should not be forgotten that the LW did suffer a very high attrition rate of pilots and aircraft in the east before 1943.

Stupid question.

You don't defeat an air force, you defeat a country. You can minimise the effectiveness of an air force but that doesn't much if you can't beat the army on the ground.

Keep in mind that numerically the soviets held the advantage but even up untill the end of the war the Luftwaffe was able to gain local air superiority almost anywhere they wanted over the VVS by neglecting other areas of the front and putting alot of their aircraft in one area.
I think overwhelmingly the Luftwaffe was destroyed by the west, while in the east they were still enjoying success albiet on a smaller scale and against opposition that was growing stiffer by the day.

In general yes the Russians did the most to defeat the germans. No doubt about it. Just ask yourself this question if you don't believe it. What would the war have been like had the germans honored the non-agression pact with the Soviets?

quote:

Originally posted by Hoenire:
Stupid question.

You don't defeat an air force, you defeat a country. You can minimise the effectiveness of an air force but that doesn't much if you can't beat the army on the ground.

Being a teacher by profession this type of comment really irritates me, as I bend over backwards trying to get my students to feel free to ask any question, telling them that there really are no stupid questions (only stupid answers).

If you have a question, always feel free to ask it, and most often the answer will benefit many of those hearing it. If it is a question that everyone else knows the answer to does not make it stupid or less worthy of asking.

quote:

Originally posted by stalkervision:
In general yes the Russians did the most to defeat the germans. No doubt about it. Just ask yourself this question if you don't believe it. What would the war have been like had the germans honored the non-agression pact with the Soviets?

Its a little more complicated than that. I doubt that the Russians or the Western allies could have beaten the Germans alone. Russia had the man power But a severe lack of mobility and an immobile army is a beaten one as the Germans have proved in russia time and time again.
By 1944 the Russian army was very mobile due in part to lend lease. American trucks, fuel and supplies mechanized the Russian army while American and British bomber raids did there part to De-mechanize the German army. Here is a small list of what U.S. gave the Russian's.

95% of all rail stock
60% rails
59% AvGas
350,000 trucks
75,000 Jeeps
P-39 5707 (4719 reached the USSR)
P-40 2397
P-47 195
P-63 2397 (21 lost in transfer)
Hurricane 2952
Spitfire 1331
Total: 14982
Bomber and Attack Aircraft
A-20 2908
B-25 862
Hampden 23
plus a few others
Total: 3800

Also Oil refineries were being bombed all the way into Romania starving the Whermacht and Luftwaffe of what it needed most, Petrol.

So by mid 44' A mobile German army became rather static and defensive and The once static Russian army became highly mobile. The roles were reversed on the eastern front and it was like 41', 42' and 43' just in reverse!

Yes, The russians killed far more Germans but without the west I beleive they would have lost.

quote:

Originally posted by Blindman-:

quote:

Originally posted by Hoenire:
Stupid question.

You don't defeat an air force, you defeat a country. You can minimise the effectiveness of an air force but that doesn't much if you can't beat the army on the ground.

Being a teacher by profession this type of comment really irritates me, as I bend over backwards trying to get my students to feel free to ask any question, telling them that there really are no stupid questions (only stupid answers).

If you have a question, always feel free to ask it, and most often the answer will benefit many of those hearing it. If it is a question that everyone else knows the answer to does not make it stupid or less worthy of asking.

NO SUCH THING AS A STUPID QUESTION!!!!!!

The luftwaffe? No. The Germans? Yes.

For every 3 german soldiers fighting the western allies there were 8 fighting the Russians.

In Mid-1940 the whole of the front-line of the Luftwaffe was in the West. Through the Battle of Britain, The whole of the Luftwaffe was up against most of the RAF. (Baring those in colonies like SIngapore).

After the invasion of Russia, and as Hitler sought too bring Britain on side vs Russia, most of the Air Force was moved East, except two crack fighter wings like JG26 and JG2 which included many of the best aces in the Luftwaffe. Around 200 day fighter planes were stationed in the West. Probably many more night fighters as the RAF primarily (but not always) di their 'serious' bombing at night. The day bombings were basically an attempt to get the German fighters up to fight as they were reluctant to 'mix it'.

The RAF now moved over to he attack and many hard lessons had to be learned, as the Germans had learned in the Battle of Britain.

It wasnt until the US day bomber campaign that many fighters were actually NEEDED in the West. They needed Nightfighters more than day fighters as the real damage being done by the RAF was at night (The first 1000 bomber raids were by the RAF on 30/31 May (Cologne) to 17 August 1942)

Nevertheless JG26 and JG2 kept a large share of Aces as the Western front was deemed to be far more dangerous than the Eastern front at this time.

Also relatively large groups of German aircraft were stationed in the Med when Mussolini had his disastrous campaign against the British Army in the Desert and over Malta. Very small groups of RAF Hurricane and Gladiator fighters held off much larger (During June 1942 there were 500 Luftwaffe and 300 Italian aircraft directed against the island) forces of Italian and Luftwaffe aircraft until new supplies of Spitfires could reach them, and they finally could hit back and win complete Air Superiority again by 1943.

http://www.spitfiresite.com/history/spitfire-in-service...defence-of-malta.htm

It wasnt until the end of 1943 that the Americans really got the daylight bombing campaign into swing and this resulted in a lot of day fighters being brought back from the East in the hope that they could inflict 'unsustainable losses' on the US Air forces and halt the daylight bombing campaign. Arguably if it wasnt for the P51 they might have succeded. The earlier raids which relied on P47's and Spitfires as far as these guys could fly ands then went on alone, suffered heavy losses. (Schweinfurt is a good example of unsustainable losses the bombers suffered without escort fighters) The German fighters simply waited for the escort to turn back and then attacked the bombers.

By Mid 1944 the USAAF and RAF had worn down the Luftwaffe and it was a shadow of its former self. They had lost most of their top aces and were scraping the barrel as far as pilots went. Attrition vs the RAF,RCAF, Russians and US air forces had really taken its toll.

So, to answer your question, yes between mid 1941 and mid 1943, most of the day fighter units bar two crack Units (around 200 aircraft), JG26 and JG6 in teh West and peaking at around 100-200 fighters in the Med around 1942, were located on the Eastern Front. What the Germans needed at this time in the West were Night fighters to counter the RAF's night bombing campaign which gradually gained pace from mid 1941 until the end of the war.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/thousands.html

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Xiolablu3,

quote:

Originally posted by stalkervision:
In general yes the Russians did the most to defeat the germans. No doubt about it. Just ask yourself this question if you don't believe it. What would the war have been like had the germans honored the non-agression pact with the Soviets?

Chances are the Russians would have waited another year or two until Germany was feeling the strain and then around '43 or there abouts done the dirty on Germany and taken all of Europe.

quote:

Originally posted by Freiwillige:
Here is a small list of what the Western Allies gave the Russian's.

95% of all rail stock
60% rails
59% AvGas
350,000 trucks
75,000 Jeeps
P-39 5707 (4719 reached the USSR)
P-40 2397
P-47 195
P-63 2397 (21 lost in transfer)
Hurricane 2952
Spitfire 1331
Total: 14982
Bomber and Attack Aircraft
A-20 2908
B-25 862
Hampden 23
plus a few others
Total: 3800

Fixed for you

Germany was defeated in the east. The greater threat was from the east. If by magic you could have ceased hostilities on the eastern front germany could have held europe basically at any point in the war from threats to the west. It was a mistake to invade russia, and a costly one!

I've got one of the old war time US propaganda films on VHS tape (About the B17 offensive - "Mission for today" I think) In it they state the Alied offensive and strategies.

Basically it came to grinding down the German forces on the eastern front and tying up as much of the LW trying to protecting German industry and resources in the Western and Mediterainian fronts. Without all fronts active at the same time Germany may have gotten the upperhand! (Divide and Conquer and all that)

From a western point of view, they kind of glossed over the Russian contribution to the war ( 20 odd million lost sons and daughters!) when I was at school!

quote:

Originally posted by bhunter2112:
Germany was defeated in the east. The greater threat was from the east. If by magic you could have ceased hostilities on the eastern front germany could have held europe basically at any point in the war from threats to the west. It was a mistake to invade russia, and a costly one!

Thats quite crazy to think that Germany could have stood up to the Industrial might of the USA along with the British and COmmonwealth.

Germany could not even subdue Britain alone, once the USA came onside it was all over, regardless of Russia being involved or not IMO. There is NO WAY that Germany could outproduce the US+UK+Canada+Austraila+Commonwealth. Eventually Germany would have fallen. Maybe it would have taken 5 more years, but eventually the massive weight of numbers of the Britian+Commonwealth+USA would have told.

Russia was seen as no threat at all in the early days. 'Kick the front door in and the whole rotten core will come tumbling down' were Hitlers exact words. He expected Russia to be finished in months, and it nearly was. If it was not for lend lease and the Western Allies putting pressure on Germany elsewhere (Malta/Med/Africa/France) then its very possible Russia could have been overrun.


I dont think Hitler actually thought that the UK and USA would help Russia at all. In fact I think he was shocked to learn that the UK and US had chosen to support Stalin over him.

BTW I am NOT saying that any of those 3 world powers (Russia/Britian+Canada+Aus+Commonwealth/USA) could have defeated Germany+Italy+Hungary+Japan+Croatia+Rumania alone. But I think 2 could have done it, but it would have taken longer.

Once the Allies had caught up with German Re-armament and preparation for war which took them a little by surprise (Germany had a head start as Hitler knew his own plans for war) and also recovered from German surprise attacks, it was RELATIVELY easy for the 3 powers together. The outcome of the war was never really in doubt once the three powers started working together. And I think any two of them could have done it in the end, too.

The Battle of Britain 1940 and Defence at Stalingrad 1942 were the real turning points which happened basically before any real US involvement in the war, with just the two powers fighting the Axis. AT these points Russia/Britain+Commonwealth checked Hitler/Musolinni and started to strike back.

quote:

Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

quote:

Originally posted by bhunter2112:
Germany was defeated in the east. The greater threat was from the east. If by magic you could have ceased hostilities on the eastern front germany could have held europe basically at any point in the war from threats to the west. It was a mistake to invade russia, and a costly one!

Thats quite hilarious to think that Germany could have stood up to the Industrial might of the USA along with British Empire help.

Germany could not even subdue Britain alone, once the USA came onside it was all over, regardless. There is NO WAY that Germany could outproduce the US+UK+Canada+Austraila+Commonwealth. Eventually Germany would have fallen.

Russia was seen as no threat at all in the early days. 'Kick the front door in and the whole rotten core will come tumbling down' were Hitlers exact words. He expected Russia to be finished in months, and it nearly was. If it was not for lend lease and the Western Allies putting pressure on Germany elsewhere (Malta/Med/Africa/France) then its very possible Russia could have been overrun.

I dont think Hitler actually thought that the UK and USA would help Russia at all. In fact I htink he was shocked to learn that the UK and US had chosen to support Stalin over him.

Germany almost defeated the allied landings on June 6th It was touch and go until the American break out over a month and a half later. Now if Germany had the other 70% of its military fully equiped just hanging out in Germany and France
you could forgett an allied victory in that decade. And thats just assuming that Germany stayed defensive, If they had remained in the offensive against England into 41' the outcome is hardly disputable. Its sheer economics and populations. Germany's economy was far stronger than England's and their Population was far greater=more soldiers.

You seem to forget that the British Empire and Commonwealth was still very large at that time. (Commonwealth still is)

It wasnt just Britain that Germany was fighting, it was Canada, Australia, India, New Zealand etc etc.

The outcome of an attempted invasion of Britain is absolutely disputable.

Go and read the Sealion thread from weeks ago....Even Hitlers Generals thought it was ridiculous to try and cross the channel vs the worlds largest Navy. (And far far far bigger than the tiny Kreigsmarine)

Just to get it into perspective, go read up on the 'channel dash' when the German Navy claimed a victory because they made in through the English channel unscathed past the british Navy Ships.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cerberus

You believe that D-Day nearly failed, yet you believe Germany could have invaded Britain in landing craft and paratroopers in 1941 vs the Worlds largest Navy with mass air cover?? Just think hard about that for a moment...

I agree that there would have been complications but impossable, Not hardly.
If the Luftwaffe kept grinding at the R.A.F well into 1941 I think Germany's industry was better suited to make replacments considering that England was running short of most supplies thanks to the U-boats choking off England from the rest of the world. Then the Luftwaffe would have only had to cover the immediate invasion part of the channel. Also no war in russia means more resourses spent on things like mre U-boats. Once ashore I am pretty sure that the Whermacht would clean house with the British army of 1941 which had left all of its heavy weapons in france. So it all boils down to 30 miles of choppy water.

quote:

Originally posted by stalkervision:
In general yes the Russians did the most to defeat the germans. No doubt about it. Just ask yourself this question if you don't believe it. What would the war have been like had the germans honored the non-agression pact with the Soviets?

Absolutely, no question at all. I think most recognise it.

That's not what Avro is asking (maybe a comment I made inspired him to write this thread?). He's asking who did the most to defeat the Luftwaffe, or where did the LW lose the war? I don't think any one front really did IMHO. The LW was the only branch that really switched between different fronts during the war while the German Army was always focused against the USSR from 1941 to 45. The Kriegsmarine of course was focused aginst the UK.

I think the air war was the area that the Western Allies gave the most direct help to the Soviets. Otherwise the help was indirect, Lend Lease and the resources the Germans spent on u-boats, air defence etc. The Soviets of course were irritated as the direct help they wanted was to force the Germans to pull out divisions from the east, and in fact they won there big victory in Stalingrad with their own resources.

However, I still think a case can be made that the Soviets pushed the Germans out more quickly with the Western Allies assistance (much more mobility as someone mentioned) than otherwise.

This is not to denigrate the VVS as they did help the Red Army a great deal and get the medal for "most improved armed branch". Also it should be noted that a fair amount of air assets were sent to the Asia-Pacific theatre by the Allies which might have been used in the ETO.