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Hi All
Ok I've been flying Il2 for almost 2 years now and can do Ok in most aircraft online. The trouble is every time I fly the F4U vs. Japanese aircraft online I die horribly!! Are there some Corsair Experts out there that can give me a few pointers on how to fly this bird. By the way I know how to B&Z etc. My trouble seems to be that I'm loosing way too much energy on my climb out and turn? Maybe that’s the problem I'm trying to turn at the top of my zoom climb to re-acquire the target? Anyways I'd be keen to hear from the experts Cheers Leady |
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Lead-Brick, air combat tactics are very extensive, but I gonna try bring the basic using of the F-4U. in fact, the tactis I gonna talk where not only intended to the F-4U, but for all figther aircraft.
first, I don't know, but have almost sure you are trying to turn with enemy figthers. turningfigth with the F-4U can only be used against aircraft of it's wheigth classification. the only enemy aircraft I remember rigth now is the FW-190. but, against Japanese planes the turning ratio of the aircraft is inferior, and you gonna be outurned all the time if you try turn with them. you will understand this when I talk about using of level speed in combat. your first lesson : DON'T TURN ! the type of turn I are saying is the classic dogfigth, where where both pilot's try turn to get on the other 6. I also later gonna cited when you should turn. just to confirm, try get on the enemy aircraft 6 by turning with it it's forbidden. now, I gonna talk about level speed. the F-4U as a powerful engine, and if you know how to use it correctly you can decide when you gonna figth or not against most enemy aircraft. this is very important, because stay in the offensive all the time will make you a easy target for a third enemy aircraft. let's say you meet a Zero head on, wat you shold do ? first, you only gonna engage the enemy when he spot you if you are at superior altitude. understand, it's expressive forbidden on other ways. why ? like I've sayied before, you know you are not capable of turning with him, so you gonna enter in the defensive. in simple terms - DIVE ! full open your trottle and dive away. you don't gonna get this guys rigth now, and you know you can't. you may thougth, the Zero gonna get me. no, if you take that you don't need to whorry, the zero can be more agile, but he don't have a power plant wich could get a corsair at full trottle. Lead-Brick, you may think onnly jets against piston engine ones have advantage on speed, that's a big mistake. it's so comm to see this because many rookies just want to turn, and they don't give the oportunity of their aircraft use it's full power. understand, the Zero is very agile at slow speeds, it's for that he destroy's you easly, because you are give him the oportunity to use it's advantage on turning. preventing that with the correct use of speed will take away this advantage from him, because he cannot chase you, even in a dive and even on level speed. you gonna try spoted the enemy always on a superior altitude. if this not happen, simple, dive and use your superior speed to avoid him. find the enemy at a superior or equal altitude ? dive away, that's not gonna be your chance of victory in this momment. now, let's say you spoted the enemy at a superior altitude. now, yes, now you gonna on the offensive. find the target, and dive on him, but know you only gonna make a firing pass on him. don't try follow him trying to put your gunsigth on him. you gonna be making the error of try turn with him again. now, let's know wat is a firing pass. you spoted the target, gonna diving on him and fire. now you can turn, but just turn to correct your aim. put your gunsigth on him and fire. the Corsair ir far more agile then the Zero at high speeds. if you hit him or not, you gonna dive away, getting on the defensive again. why to do this ? because the enemy will have a much smaller time to spot you. and, will not be able to pursuit you. understand ? fire and dive away. I don't cited above, but I recommend at least 1 or 2 minutes of level fligth at full trottle to loose any pursuiters. after you have sure you are not being pursuit, climb to a superior altitude and turn back. repeat the same procedure, only attacking when you have advantage on altitude, and only when you can make a high speed firing pass. that's the basic, you gonna apply this procedure as your main combat tactic. and remember, when you are not diving on the enemy you are running like hell. this tactic works very well against early and mid war Japanese planes. late war models like the KI-84 and te N1K2 where in fact equal to the F-4U in power, and should only be attacled when you spot then first. if they see you first, a good wingman is necessary. just remember that when you are not diving on the enemy, you are running from him. explore the advantage of speed. dive and run always and you should be safe against early and mid war enemy planes. any doubths, please, post then. I have sure whe gonna have a great Corsair pilot here.  PS : I'm not a expert, just a Wildnoob.  |
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Not an expert but if you zoom to low speed then you are making a boo-boo right there. Don't let your speed drop below 200mph (320kph) and try not to get that slow. If you find yourself doing that then re-examine your tactics and change them as you approach such speed. These work when you have the decidedly faster plane. When trading energy for angles, always watch your speed and extend away if you even get near the low end of your good maneuvering speed. Try also to keep a speed high enough that at that speed you can climb better than he can. Sure he can slow down and make a better sustained climb but in doing so he cannot turn as well and your zoom will beat his steady climb at low speed. There are ways to overcome disadvantage in turn though the enemy might move to counter so you need to be on guard and ready to respond. If he turns flat tighter than you can follow then rise and roll to keep sight. Gravity will assist your turn. You can alternate that by dropping your nose to use gravity assist as well. Don't always use the same move. If you approach off to the side of your target so to attack from his 4-5 or 8-7 then when he turns your circle will either intersect his if he turns into you or you will have an easier turn and a longer fire time if he turns away from you. The hard part is keeping up SA while fighting this target. You may have to break just to get a look around at times, target fixation is bad. But if you keep your speed high then it's less likely though still possible that you are being trailed and you have the speed to jink and break which you won't if you pull grandstand zoom to hammerhead type moves. Sig: My views are my own. You don't like em, get in line. |
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wassup man. ok i am a corsair EXPERT. been flyin it for like 2 years. I've shot down down a countless amount of jap planes. Its like this. you can't outurn them dont even try to turn with them. you said you have b&z down, so ok. If your level with a jap plane, this is what you down. If he is on your six dive down hard and zoom out. He wont be able to catch you, once your at top speed at you've got a fair amount if distance from him, climb up hard. Nose straight up, he can't climb as fast as you so your in the clear. By this time you've got the height advantage. Turn around, easy kill. Not much too it. You can climb and zoom faster than the jap plane. But you can't turn with it. Even if your on HIS six and he tries to turn, climb up. If he does a 360 degree turn and tries to climb onto your six, if he is gaining on you hard, dive down and repeat what i said above. If you are slowly gaining away from him, continue, soon he will pull off and there is your shot. |
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I agree with what the advice given by the others here as those are the best tactics. Also be aware (and it is here that many veteran IL2 flyers will chime in and tell me how wrong I am) that the Corsair is possibly the worst modeled airframe in IL2. In real life the Corsair F4U-D could sustain dives of ~880 kph before structural damage resulted but in IL2 this limit is much lower at about ~740 kph. The Corsair was (as in IL2) a difficult bird to fly but it did turn better in real life than it does in the game. If you are on a server where the Corsair is fighting its traditional enemy the Zero, then following the advice given above will work fine. If you choose a server where you are facing many late war planes (La-7, Spit 25 lbs, late model FW-190s, etc) DO NOT choose the Corsair as your dive advantage will be useless and you will not have the level flight speed to escape.
Jay |
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Is that TAS at or above any specific altitude? Would you care to share your source? Sig: My views are my own. You don't like em, get in line. |
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I'm not an expert, but I can point you why you probably do a poor job in F4U. F4U is really a tough machine to fly in combat versus nimble Japanese aircraft. It requires a lot of discipline, much more than any other US plane in game. And that's not a joke. P-38, P-47 and P-51 are a dream to fly when compared to the F4U. F6F is not so nice but only because it lacks speed, otherwise flight chars are more than satisfying. With almost 2,500km range with full tanks you only need 50% fuel max when flying online, however for offline that may increase. With less fuel, I suppose not only your flight performance in RoC (climb) will increase, but also some of the notorious instability (wobble) when speaking of that aircraft as a gun platform may be rectified. The only cure versus most Japanese fighters is to stay over 250mph at all times, and also use altitude to convert it in speed fast when needed. Unfortunately, versus some Japanese fighters such is Ki-84 I'm afraid nothing can be done, since it possesses such stellar performance that it outmatches F4U in practically every flying characteristic except prolonged dive. Even maximum dive speed is F4U ~800kph, Ki-84 ~820kph. J2M is also aircraft with a bit better chars than F4U regarding speed. |
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I also recommend a good teamwork if you already not using it.
American aircraft of the Corsair's wheigth classification where far more effective with combat in teams. in fact all aircraft flying in teams where far superior then lone ones. as most pilot's online fly alone, you can use that as a great advantage. |
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Maybe it was already mentioned, but it's so important it's worth mentioning again. Get a wingman!
This goes for any plane, but even more so for corsair. While you will probably be able to hold your own and to even shoot early japanese planes down in numbers alone, this lone wulf tactics won't work against later Japanese machines. Frank and Jack outeverything Corsair with ease, so your only hope remains to drag and bag them! Also George can give you a good run for your money, but it sucks at high altitudes. Get a wingman, get on comms, Drag and Bag. Oh, I almost forgot: Don't forget to manage your engine, especially supercharger, when going high. You shouldn't even think about entering a japanese fighter infested area lower than 15.000 feet. Oh, did I mention? Get yourself a wingman! No one in sane mind ever turns when he has any other option. ~ DKoor |
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Here is the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F4U_Corsair Here is the excerpt: "On 1 October, the XF4U-1 made a flight from Stratford to Hartford with an average ground speed of 405 mph (650 km/h), the first U.S. fighter to fly faster than 400 mph (640 km/h).[12] The XF4U-1 also had an excellent rate of climb. On the other hand, the testing of the XF4U-1 revealed some requirements would have to be rewritten. In full-power dive tests, speeds of up to 550 mph (885 km/h) were achieved, not without damage to the control surfaces and access panels, and, in one case, an engine failure.[13] The spin recovery standards also had to be relaxed, as recovery from the required two-turn spin proved impossible without recourse to an anti-spin chute.[12] The problems clearly meant delays in getting the type into production." I have also seen the 885 kph figure elsewhere (a Navy manual and a book on WWII fighters I believe but dont quote me on that). Basically, the Corsair in RL was far more capable than as modeled in the game. Every aircraft in IL2 has some things that are off or lacking but the F4U may be the worst of all. It was a real badass in WWII but not at all in IL2. Jay |
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Lead-Brick,
Turning in F4U with ZERO's: you should fly on Zeke-vs-Wildcat, PacCon or other F4U squadron server, record the session and you will see how some of the top pilots are turning (not just BNZ) in F4U or F6F against the A6M or Ki. Here is a track shows how =FA_Jaws= did it in a F6F against A6M on the full switch server Zero-vs-Wildcats: http://www.4shared.com/file/51215800/f608ae94/FA_Jaws_F6FvsA6M_Dogfight.html There are plenty of good F4U pilots out there, Shadows is one of those. For me, dogfight is most exciting part of this game, so I just try to turn with opponents going against the odd, get killed, watch the track, try it again and learn from mistakes. It may sound stupid but hey, it's just a game and that is how I learned. I want to share with you some tracks showing that I was able to turn (got no kills, no good gunnery ) with P51 against 3xJ2M and 3xKi. It was on the Zeke-vs-wildcat server:http://www.4shared.com/file/51217732/927e13cd/P51_vs_3xJ2M_dogfight.html http://www.4shared.com/file/51217966/e2fa0e9b/P51_vs_3xKi84_dogfight.html Again, I'm not a good pilot (after 3.5 years) and still trying to learn to play this game. I was in session last night on VMF215 server with AVG-squadron and BengalTiger. It was unreal to see how an AVG pilot (in P51) fought against BengalTiger's FW190: he did the scissors at low speed against the FW190 that has better roll rate. As Oleg said, it's about the pilot and not the plane. ~S~ |
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I cannot express just how much I disagree with this "it's about pilot, not the plane" thing.
It simply is not true and it is very, very sad that it is being constantly thrown around here. |
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I think this is relative. it's relative about how much superiority a aircraft have against another. for example, the 17 : 1 kill ratio of the Hellcat is not just because US pilot's where "better". of course they where skilled, but by flying a superior aircraft in most of their figths with enemies was decisive to obtain such kill ratio. but if you whe are talking about a BF-109 against a Spitfire for example, it's possible to say that pilot experience was decisive in the outcome of the engagement. again I cited, it depends on how much superiority whe are talking about. episodies in WWII where a superior aircraft gave to the pilot's an edge in combat happeny many times. |
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I'll bite. I'm totally in the mindset that its pilot first and plane second. The plane is undoubtedly a factor...undoubtedly. It'd be silly to think that the plane isn't a factor. That all said, a great pilot will make the best out of any plane while a poor pilot will never be able to measure up. Unless the performance disparity is huge, the inexperienced pilot will typically loose against the more experienced pilot despite the experienced pilot having a less capable plane. I enjoy going into a dogfight server, finding a plane that is considered a low performer or a plane that is an older model and still out perform the less experienced pilots in the newer/better types. Its challenging as a pilot and you end up loosing allot more but I learned allot and still do whenever I do this. Recently I was online with a guy complaining about all of these planes and how they were bad and how its the planes fault he wasn't doing that well. The planeset was limited to same year and the differences between planes wasn't really that big. I watched the guy fly and he was a terrible combat pilot...no tactics, no gunnery skill, just got himself in a fight and lost it almost every time. He blames the plane. I blame the pilot. Its his fault for not using the type to its full abilities. Air racing is another one of those things where the pilot is so key. Everyone is flying the same plane but some are faster than others...are they magically going faster? No...they have better technique. But two good or great pilots fighting against each other...thats when the plane becomes the key. When both pilots are performing at the maximum potential...then the differences in planes becomes so much more important. Given the numbers of experienced virtual pilots on HyperLobby being in the better or at least competitive plane is still definitely an advantage. Am I wrong or have I misinterpreted? |
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Its true...having the better plane is definitely an edge in combat. A well trained and combat experienced pilot in a Hellcat as was typical for USN pilots in 1944 puts everything in the Hellcats favour. Conversely at the same time that the Hellcat was wreaking such havoc the Japanese pilots were of the lowest quality in the Japanese Navy at the time...the majority of the best pilots gone from the earlier years of fighting. So they had two points against them. Both inferior aircraft and low training and experience. What if (in a flip of history) those Zeros were piloted by the best pilots to serve in the Japanese Navy against green and untrained USN Hellcat pilots? I personally think that kill ratio would evaporate...the Hellcat by itself isn't enough but it does determine the ultimate potential. But even the Wildcat was doing well against the Zero once training and tactics in the USN improved. This was seen mostly after the Battle of Midway. The kill ratio had evened out before the Hellcat arrived. The Wildcat wasn't doing so badly...despite it being somewhat inferior to the Zero in some respects. The pilot isn't everything but its significant. |
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oh, VW-IceFire, I edited my post again because I thougth it's was very agresive.
anyway, I remain with my opinion. and yes, the Wildcat manage to obtain a 1 : 1 kill ratio against the Zero with the correct tactics. of course in this case the pilot was vital, because it was he that was applying the new tactics. a superior aircraft by significant terms give to it's pilot a far better chance of scoring a victory. |
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First we are talking about game.
I throw my comment in (about game). Then we switch to RL ww2 aircombat. Then we get back talking about IL2 again.  And still, even being night & day difference (real life vs IL2) still plane plays enormous part in all this. I would be that free to say that the plane is much more of an factor in IL2 than IRL. |
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Ahh now that is definitely a more challenging argument...IL-2 versus real life AND plane versus pilot.
I suspect charts would be involved and maybe its best to leave it at that
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Hi There
Thanks for all your replies. I've been practising a bit and getting better (offline) If the squad (|450|) ends up in Zeek's tonight in F4U's I'll let you know how it goes. Cheers |450|Leady |
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so it says nothing about about max dive speed without structural damage, does it? btw, ingame max dive speed is 800km/h, not 740km/h, as you said before.
in what regard? _____________________ deepo of "homeoputes" lapinot, #17 @ simairracing.com |
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