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Salute All
Link to a detailed Paper by a USAF Colonel, detailing the advantages of the P-51 over contemporary USAAF Fighters in the Escort role, as well as German aircraft. Full Pdf here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t...VOWcCn8TSo1Z6cx6ht-w Quote re. comparison between early P-51, early P-47 and early P-38: The Army Air Forces Board on the Tactical Employment Trials of the North American P-51B-1 also included a comparison of the P-51B with that of the P-47D-10.
The report also compares the handling characteristics of the P-38J-5 to the P-51B.
Both the P-38 and P-47 had modifications added to reduce their deficiencies but these could not overcome the initial issues completely. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Buzzsaw-, |
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http://groups.google.com/group...&q=#94b510461227a65d
http://findarticles.com/p/arti...29/?tag=content;col1 Our Museum glorifies no state, but strives to use these aircraft as a memorial for all lost in war. Our freedom can only be truly appreciated when held in contrast to those who sought to destroy it. Our staff is proudly made up of people from many cultures and religions. Click the photos for details of our projects. "Those who do not remember history are destined to repeat it." - Winston Churchill |
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it's not a dissertation, it is a paper required in addition to some hours of courses at the 'air war college'. that way senior officers can get a master.
_____________________ deepo of "homeoputes" lapinot, #17 @ simairracing.com |
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Interesting.
I'm playing devil's advocate here (Jesuit eduction coming through again), but I think its difficult to draw hard conclusions from this, as so much data from WW2 directly contradicts other data, with just few changes to an airframe. For example: In TAIC testing of a P-51D-5, a P-38J-25 and a P-47D-30 against a Zero, it was found that the Zero got onto the tail of a P-51 faster than it got onto the tail of a P-38, both at 10,000 feet and at 20,000 feet. The same testing had the P-47D-30 zooming better from a dive than the P-51D-5. It also has the P-51D accelerating better initially than the P-38J. Do we conclude then that the P-38J is a better turner than the P-51D? There are people out there who state that the P-38 can out turn a Zero. Or that the P-47 does indeed hold its speed better after a dive than the P-51? There are very few relative comparisons in WW2 air combat that cannot be logically and comprehensively argued for or against. ImpStarDuece, Flying Bullet Magnet... Catching Lead Since 2002 "There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!" "Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic be alcohol, morphine or idealism." -Carl Jung |
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If you do the math and set the aircraft under the same conditions you can get a good prediction of general performance trends. What you can't say is specific accurate numbers that apply to any other condition of flight. You cannot say, Airplane X outturns Airplane Y at its L/Dmax at 143.5 mph. You can say for the specific conditions calculated Airplane X will outturn Airplane Y in the vicinity of L/Dmax. The math is the most accurate method of predicting performance. The math removes the element of pilot skill. A skilled pilot can greatly effect the performance of an aircraft. It is not uncommon for an airplane to gain 15 Knots in cruise speed as a pilot gains experience in it. Even in side by side comparison's, pilot skill is a large factor. Anecdotal evidence sure is entertaining though! All the best, Crumpp Our Museum glorifies no state, but strives to use these aircraft as a memorial for all lost in war. Our freedom can only be truly appreciated when held in contrast to those who sought to destroy it. Our staff is proudly made up of people from many cultures and religions. Click the photos for details of our projects. "Those who do not remember history are destined to repeat it." - Winston Churchill |
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Of course, firepower, sturdiness and reliability are nothing to be considered.
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When you are talking about performance only.
Of course it seems to be okay to take performance in one set of circumstances and generalize that to "everywhere", which is BS. Compare The P-51B has a much smaller turning radius circle that the P-47D-10, and is able to get in behind the P-47D in one and one-half to two turns, after a head on approach. with The turning circle of the P-51B is smaller than that of the P-38J-5, at all attitudes. and ask why the second says at all attitudes and the first does not. Were those word just in there for decoration? Be sure we will be told that in the first case those words apply, they were just forgotten or something. Don't imply that either that text isn't the absolute truth or that anyone with nothing more than the right attitude can't extract equally truthful meaning from any part of it they choose while ignoring any and every other part. When people take a plane out to see what it can do they really find what they can do with it. |
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I always come back to the main issue..pilot skill and training.
Robert Johnson was challenged to a dogfight by a spitfire pilot? Guess who won? The fins used the brewster buffalo with great effect during the war and had many aces with it. a Korean war american fighter pilot using both a sabre and then a mig alternately beat one after another of his squadron mates just to prove a point. P-47 pilots beat much better trained Luftwaffe opponents before the Mustangs showed up. |
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Note that the P-51B-1 block was also before the introduction of the 85 gallon fuselage tank. (IIRC, that started with the -5 or -7 block.) Any discussion of P-51 performance/manueverability really should state whether the tank was present (in early models) or how much fuel was in it. Without that data, any conclusions are suspect. |
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im too lazy to read it
what does it say of the 0.50? |
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The last 550 of 800 P-51B-5-NAs were fitted with this extra tank, becoming P-51B-7-NAs, and into P-51C-1-NTs, becoming P-51C-3-NT. In addition, some earlier P-51Bs and Cs were modified in the field to accommodate this tank.
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the backseat tank was always burnt down long before the 51 was in the combat zone because it seriously messed up the cg in combat maneuvers.
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everything in the USAAF could outturn a 38...IF the 38 pilot didnt drop 'manuvering flaps'...the one that were on all 38s from F series onward....
the blind pilot loses..what a revelation, and solid proof that the 51 was far superior to the 38 fanboi-ism that will leave those readers with affection the the plane that won teh war a strong urge for a cigarette afterwards.... |
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And a need to wash the hand.
When people take a plane out to see what it can do they really find what they can do with it. |
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20 pages for sure
Good hunting, Sillius_Sodus |
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A doctorate thesis on why the P51 won the war, thats actually very cool. The really interesting part for me is the author barely scratches the surface in comparison to some of the P51 threads on this forum.
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So the conclusion is that it was the best escort fighter, which it was.
Although somewhat selective in it's material, it could not exactly say out loud that the FW190s and ME109s were a major headache (instant demotion), although it was nice to give a little mention or two. Forget the Garlic, Beetroot and Hardtack - Just gimme Gunz-n-Drugz |
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Seems a bit pointless, arguing how a P-51 would take out a P-47, them being on the same team.
_______________________________________ Dum spiro, spero. |
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That's not a PhD thesis. It's hard to even consider it an "academic" paper.
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IL2-Moderator![]() |
Oh you'll like this reply.
Written by a Girl in 1996, Nuff said!!! Not saying she doesn't know anything, just because she's female, but She has no direct involvement at all with these aircraft, only literature. Hell I might as well wrote it, and told you it was right. Good thing this is in there.
A decent read though. |
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