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Picture of Buzzsaw-
Posted
Salute All

Link to a detailed Paper by a USAF Colonel, detailing the advantages of the P-51 over contemporary USAAF Fighters in the Escort role, as well as German aircraft.

Full Pdf here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t...VOWcCn8TSo1Z6cx6ht-w

Quote re. comparison between early P-51, early P-47 and early P-38:

The Army
Air Forces Board on the Tactical Employment Trials of the North American P-51B-1 also included a comparison of the P-51B with that of the P-47D-10.

quote:

The P-51B has a much smaller turning radius circle that the P-47D-10, and is able to get in behind the P-47D in one and one-half to two turns, after a head on approach. The war emergency speed of the P-47D-10 is comparable to that of the P-51B up to 30,000 feet, but above this altitude the speed of the P-51B increases rapidly over that of the P-47D. Up to 30,000 feet, either airplane may jump and catch the other if the approach is not seen too far away. However, if the P-51B is jumped by P-47D, it can turn into the P-47D and rapidly maneuver on to its tail. The P-47D cannot follow the P-51B in a dive at high altitudes as it is limited to a lower diving speed at those altitudes. The P-51B has a much superior rate of climb than the P-47D, and this superiority increases with altitude. The level flight acceleration of the P-51B is superior to that of the P-47D. When full power is applied to both aircraft from cruising speed in formation, the P-51B will pull rapidly away from the P-47D. The P-51B also holds it [sic] high speed longer than the P-47D in level flight after a dive, because it decelerates much slower.


The report also compares the handling characteristics of the P-38J-5 to the P-51B.

quote:

The turning circle of the P-51B is smaller than that of the P-38J-5, at all attitudes. It has a far faster rate of aileron roll through all speeds. The P-51B accelerates rapidly away from the P-38J in a dive, after reaching speeds of 325 I.A.S. With both airplanes in formation at cruising speed in level flight, when full power is applied, the P-38J will pull several hundred feet out in front before the P-51B can reach maximum acceleration and overtake the P-38J. With slight advantage in altitude, the P-51B can jump the P-38J successfully and engage it in combat, due to its superior diving and top speed. The P-51B can evade being jumped by the P-38J, if it is seen in time, by dropping the nose and diving away If the P-38J has built up its speed in a dive and is not seen in time, the P-51B can turn sharply into the P-38J and evade its fire. The P-38J cannot follow the P-51B at high diving speed at altitude, due to its lower limits of allowable diving speeds. At high speed, it is impossible for the P-38J to keep its sights on the P-51B due to the P-51B’s rapid rate of aileron roll, allowing it to reverse its direction of turn faster than the P-38J can follow.


Both the P-38 and P-47 had modifications added to reduce their deficiencies but these could not overcome the initial issues completely.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Buzzsaw-,
 
Posts: 1572 | Registered: Sun January 16 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Kettenhunde
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http://groups.google.com/group...&q=#94b510461227a65d

quote:
With respect to the Mustang, many tests-including some in recent years-have shown that extensive laminar flow was not developed on the Mustang wing and that the drag of the wing was probably no less than that of conventional wings of the same thickness and taper ratio.


quote:
the drag created by momentum loss in passing through the radiator can be reduced from some 400 pounds to close to 30 to 40 pounds because of the offsetting momentum of the jet thrust from the radiator exit


http://findarticles.com/p/arti...29/?tag=content;col1



Our Museum glorifies no state, but strives to use these aircraft as a memorial for all lost in war. Our freedom can only be truly appreciated when held in contrast to those who sought to destroy it. Our staff is proudly made up of people from many cultures and religions. Click the photos for details of our projects.
"Those who do not remember history are destined to repeat it." - Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 3070 | Registered: Fri March 25 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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it's not a dissertation, it is a paper required in addition to some hours of courses at the 'air war college'. that way senior officers can get a master.


_____________________

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lapinot, #17 @ simairracing.com
 
Posts: 679 | Registered: Thu June 19 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Posted Hide Post
Interesting.

I'm playing devil's advocate here (Jesuit eduction coming through again), but I think its difficult to draw hard conclusions from this, as so much data from WW2 directly contradicts other data, with just few changes to an airframe.

For example:

In TAIC testing of a P-51D-5, a P-38J-25 and a P-47D-30 against a Zero, it was found that the Zero got onto the tail of a P-51 faster than it got onto the tail of a P-38, both at 10,000 feet and at 20,000 feet.

The same testing had the P-47D-30 zooming better from a dive than the P-51D-5.

It also has the P-51D accelerating better initially than the P-38J.

Do we conclude then that the P-38J is a better turner than the P-51D? There are people out there who state that the P-38 can out turn a Zero.

Or that the P-47 does indeed hold its speed better after a dive than the P-51?

There are very few relative comparisons in WW2 air combat that cannot be logically and comprehensively argued for or against.


ImpStarDuece,

Flying Bullet Magnet... Catching Lead Since 2002

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

"Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic be alcohol, morphine or idealism."
-Carl Jung

 
Posts: 2801 | Registered: Sat March 27 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Kettenhunde
Posted Hide Post
quote:
There are very few relative comparisons in WW2 air combat that cannot be logically and comprehensively argued for or against.


If you do the math and set the aircraft under the same conditions you can get a good prediction of general performance trends.

What you can't say is specific accurate numbers that apply to any other condition of flight.

You cannot say, Airplane X outturns Airplane Y at its L/Dmax at 143.5 mph.

You can say for the specific conditions calculated Airplane X will outturn Airplane Y in the vicinity of L/Dmax.

The math is the most accurate method of predicting performance.

The math removes the element of pilot skill. A skilled pilot can greatly effect the performance of an aircraft. It is not uncommon for an airplane to gain 15 Knots in cruise speed as a pilot gains experience in it.

Even in side by side comparison's, pilot skill is a large factor.

Anecdotal evidence sure is entertaining though!

All the best,

Crumpp



Our Museum glorifies no state, but strives to use these aircraft as a memorial for all lost in war. Our freedom can only be truly appreciated when held in contrast to those who sought to destroy it. Our staff is proudly made up of people from many cultures and religions. Click the photos for details of our projects.
"Those who do not remember history are destined to repeat it." - Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 3070 | Registered: Fri March 25 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of DuxCorvan
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Of course, firepower, sturdiness and reliability are nothing to be considered. Roll Eyes



 
Posts: 5716 | Registered: Tue August 05 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Posted Hide Post
When you are talking about performance only.

Of course it seems to be okay to take performance in one set of circumstances and generalize that to "everywhere", which is BS.

Compare

The P-51B has a much smaller turning radius circle that the P-47D-10, and is able to get in behind the P-47D in one and one-half to two turns, after a head on approach.

with

The turning circle of the P-51B is smaller than that of the P-38J-5, at all attitudes.

and ask why the second says at all attitudes and the first does not. Were those word just in there for decoration?
Be sure we will be told that in the first case those words apply, they were just forgotten or something.

Don't imply that either that text isn't the absolute truth or that anyone with nothing more than the right attitude can't
extract equally truthful meaning from any part of it they choose while ignoring any and every other part.


When people take a plane out to see what it can do they really find what they can do with it.

 
Posts: 6726 | Registered: Tue March 06 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of stalkervision
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I always come back to the main issue..pilot skill and training.

Robert Johnson was challenged to a dogfight by a spitfire pilot? Guess who won?

The fins used the brewster buffalo with great effect during the war and had many aces with it.

a Korean war american fighter pilot using both a sabre and then a mig alternately beat one after another of his squadron mates just to prove a point.

P-47 pilots beat much better trained Luftwaffe opponents before the Mustangs showed up. Wink2
 
Posts: 6402 | Registered: Tue December 19 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of jarink
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quote:
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
The Army
Air Forces Board on the Tactical Employment Trials of the North American P-51B-1 also included a comparison of the P-51B with that of the P-47D-10.


Note that the P-51B-1 block was also before the introduction of the 85 gallon fuselage tank. (IIRC, that started with the -5 or -7 block.)

Any discussion of P-51 performance/manueverability really should state whether the tank was present (in early models) or how much fuel was in it. Without that data, any conclusions are suspect.



 
Posts: 2706 | Registered: Fri February 11 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Posted Hide Post
im too lazy to read it

what does it say of the 0.50?



 
Posts: 4021 | Registered: Mon February 11 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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The last 550 of 800 P-51B-5-NAs were fitted with this extra tank, becoming P-51B-7-NAs, and into P-51C-1-NTs, becoming P-51C-3-NT. In addition, some earlier P-51Bs and Cs were modified in the field to accommodate this tank.
 
Posts: 64 | Registered: Tue April 21 2009Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of stalkervision
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the backseat tank was always burnt down long before the 51 was in the combat zone because it seriously messed up the cg in combat maneuvers.
 
Posts: 6402 | Registered: Tue December 19 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Daiichidoku
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quote:

The turning circle of the P-51B is smaller than that of the P-38J-5, at all attitudes.


everything in the USAAF could outturn a 38...IF the 38 pilot didnt drop 'manuvering flaps'...the one that were on all 38s from F series onward....


quote:

With slight advantage in altitude, the P-51B can jump the P-38J successfully and engage it in combat, due to its superior diving and top speed. The P-51B can evade being jumped by the P-38J, if it is seen in time, by dropping the nose and diving away If the P-38J has built up its speed in a dive and is not seen in time, the P-51B can turn sharply into the P-38J and evade its fire..


Too Happy

the blind pilot loses..what a revelation, and solid proof that the 51 was far superior to the 38 Roll Eyes


fanboi-ism that will leave those readers with affection the the plane that won teh war a strong urge for a cigarette afterwards.... Tongue


 
Posts: 3119 | Registered: Thu September 09 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Posted Hide Post
And a need to wash the hand.


When people take a plane out to see what it can do they really find what they can do with it.

 
Posts: 6726 | Registered: Tue March 06 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Posted Hide Post
20 pages for sure Veryhappy


Good hunting,
Sillius_Sodus
 
Posts: 919 | Registered: Fri September 16 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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A doctorate thesis on why the P51 won the war, thats actually very cool. The really interesting part for me is the author barely scratches the surface in comparison to some of the P51 threads on this forum.
 
Posts: 493 | Registered: Tue October 05 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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So the conclusion is that it was the best escort fighter, which it was.

Although somewhat selective in it's material, it could not exactly say out loud that the FW190s and ME109s were a major headache (instant demotion), although it was nice to give a little mention or two. Big Grin



Forget the Garlic, Beetroot and Hardtack - Just gimme Gunz-n-Drugz
 
Posts: 2839 | Registered: Fri December 01 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Ploughman
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Seems a bit pointless, arguing how a P-51 would take out a P-47, them being on the same team.


_______________________________________

Dum spiro, spero.
 
Posts: 6156 | Registered: Fri April 30 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of neural_dream
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That's not a PhD thesis. It's hard to even consider it an "academic" paper.



My new blog, specialised in the military equipment of Greece (1821-today).
 
Posts: 2260 | Registered: Sat July 02 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
IL2-Moderator
Picture of T_O_A_D
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Oh you'll like this reply.


Written by a Girl in 1996, Nuff said!!!


Not saying she doesn't know anything, just because she's female, but She has no direct involvement at all with these aircraft, only literature. Hell I might as well wrote it, and told you it was right. Too Happy


Good thing this is in there.

quote:
Disclaimer
The views expressed in this academic research paper are those of the author(s) and do not reflect the official policy or position of the US government or the Department of Defense. In accordance with Air Force Instruction 51-303, it is not copyrighted, but is the property of the United States government.


A decent read though.
 
Posts: 5998 | Registered: Sat July 12 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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