quote:

Originally posted by Kettenhunde:

quote:

Henschel Tigers were stored in 190 wings

LMAO!

Yet another .50 caliber thread....it just never gets old does it?

Yeah, i know....it had been a couple weeks since the mention of 50 cals, so i thought people could use another dose.

Actually my thinking in another thread, that i didn't want to make a 50 cal thread, was that 50 cals may not have been as structurally dangerous as cannons, however their AP abilities would've made the pilot particularly vulnerable as well as the engine blocks and other vitals.

This introduction to munitions vulnerability adds to this dynamic, given the fact that the 50s themselves are actually only capable of poking holes in aircraft skin. It is the fire from ignited fuels, a wounded or killed pilot, or even detonated HE ammunition that does a better job of bringing the plane down. I'm sure there is also a measurable amount of structural damage, but this doesn't compare to the use of a cannon or HE round. However, given the design and intent of a HE round it isn't likely to hit the pilot unless it is fired directly into the canopy. It explodes at first impact or fractions their after, where its likely to meet an armor plate or another obstruction.
Point being 50 cals could go through the entire plane and out the other side, depending on the angle and range, which could be very dangerous for the pilot and unspent cannon rounds.

I think its these errors in perception that misguide what people expect to get out of the guns in Il2.

I wasn't actually trying to make this another 50 cal thread, but just add attention to the fact that unspent HE rounds were a danger.

I don't see regular AP or machine gun rounds having the same vulnerability being that the contents for projection are ignited by a cap that a hammer in the gun slams against. It is possible to hit the cap and cause the bullet to fire, but no explosion that would equate to an HE round exploding inside your own wing, packed next to other HE rounds.



Bill

Bill, the problem with the .50 vs. stored ammo is the likelihood of the hit. Compared to the size of the plane, from any angle, the wing ammo boxes are tiny. They make up maybe 1% of the Fw's to hit area. And not every hit will set them off.

odds are increased based on the amount of firing time and number of guns, just as hitting the pilot or any other vital in the plane.
I must admit i was fooled when i first saw the footage thinking that the impacts alone lead to the wing busting off. Probably harder than hitting the pilot but it depends on spread and range too. I might add that various pilots accounts (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/) make mention of seeing similar explosions at the wing root. So it might've been more common than you think, and not always leading to wing separation but i'm sure it would be detrimental to the aircraft.


I really wasn't trying to make it an issue of DMs or inaccurate model. More to the aforementioned points i layed out in the post above.

quote:

Originally posted by Kettenhunde:

quote:

Henschel Tigers were stored in 190 wings

LMAO!

Yet another .50 caliber thread....it just never gets old does it?

Poetic Mode ON: why yes, like the hopes and dreams of small children it never gets old! always believe!
Poetic Mode OFF:

The Fw190A8/R8 had a 20mm thick piece of armor placed in front and 4mm armour for the top and bottom of the ammo.

ps Bill. didn't think your initial post was the start of a .50 moaning thread. Some ppl do have reading comprehension difficulties.

quote:

Originally posted by JtD:
Bill, the problem with the .50 vs. stored ammo is the likelihood of the hit. Compared to the size of the plane, from any angle, the wing ammo boxes are tiny. They make up maybe 1% of the Fw's to hit area. And not every hit will set them off.

Using 8 guns firing at 700RPM greatly increases the likelihood of a strike in the ammo. Also, remember that the FW-190 also stores 20MM HE rounds in the belly right next to the fuel tanks, and I have seen a guncam video of that blowing up as well.

The only thing that this video shows, is ammo detonation is possible. In IL2, its not. Only disables the gun. But it don't take a genius to figure out that .50 + HE ammo = boom.

You're geniuses. Personally, I would never have guessed that more hits improve the overall odds for a lucky hit.

Another possibility would be to shoot 500kg bombs instead of 50g projectiles. These would also be more likely to set off the ammo. Just so I said it before you can come up with another brilliant idea.

Personally I think that the guys who brought us the new Ponies fron AAA dd a great job on them.. IMO they indeed "fixed" the Mustangs.. and if you arent careful you can still loose a wing in a dive.. or stall out in a unrecoverable flatspin.. and if you dont keep your speed up you can still wobble like crazy.. but the IMO improved 5os are great.

quote:

Originally posted by JtD:
You're geniuses. Personally, I would never have guessed that more hits improve the overall odds for a lucky hit.

Another possibility would be to shoot 500kg bombs instead of 50g projectiles. These would also be more likely to set off the ammo. Just so I said it before you can come up with another brilliant idea.

You're forgetting that bomb material itself requires more than an impact to set it off, and correct me if im wrong, but bombs are loaded so they don't actually arm until the pilot pulls the release clamp.
High explosive HE rounds are fused with a ball baring mechanism, i'm sure you already know about. There are three spring loaded bearings that move outward as the shell spins, rifling out of the barrel. This arms the fuse, and when the shell stops spinning the springs push them back to the center. If even one barring hits the center it explodes, so a bullet impact from a 50 caliber or other weapon could set the fuse as it hits or jolts the bearings, and the springs immediately push them back... and Boom!
I'm not sure the HE or flash powder alone is sensitive to impacts, but I'm not sure which is more likely, the ignition of HE from an impact, or the setting and release of the fuse from the impact. Its not a far out speculation because seeing footage and reading pilots reports is enough to know that it did happen and sometimes very catastrophically.

I'm not sure why people would have a problem excepting that the HE rounds were just another vital part of the aircraft, like the engine, fuel tanks, as well as the pilot and controls.

quote:

The Fw190A8/R8 had a 20mm thick piece of armor placed in front and 4mm armour for the top and bottom of the ammo.

This is testament to the fact that it was a recognized vulnerability.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BillSwagger,

quote:

Also, remember that the FW-190 also stores 20MM HE rounds in the belly right next to the fuel tanks, and I have seen a guncam video of that blowing up as well.

You should work for the NTSB, as you can determine chains of action by just looking at them.

quote:

The Fw190A8/R8 had a 20mm thick piece of armor placed in front and 4mm armour for the top and bottom of the ammo.

So did the A-8/R2.
You should have noticed that this was only deemed neccessary for MK108-equipped "Sturmjäger" aircraft.

The clip at 6 secs to 8secs taken at low level is from the guncamera of a 56thFg P-47, so that is definitely .50 cal damage.

quote:

Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
this proves the long standing myth:

Henschel Tigers were stored in 190 wings

quote:

Originally posted by Bremspropeller:

quote:

The Fw190A8/R8 had a 20mm thick piece of armor placed in front and 4mm armour for the top and bottom of the ammo.

So did the A-8/R2.
You should have noticed that this was only deemed neccessary for MK108-equipped "Sturmjäger" aircraft.

If I had only said A-8 you would have something to snipe about.

I'm only taken care of an audience that thinks that 50s kill Tigers, sink battleships and put the "f" back in "freedom".

This feels like a thread from 2005 or 2004 or... well you get the idea. I guess the fact, 64 plus years after the event, that there are still those who don't think the .50 cals on U.S. fighters weren't effective aren't the experts they think themselves to be. Considering the air war fought in WWII by the various U.S. air arms was considerably different than almost every other air force in the conflict, it was the right weapon at the right time. Whether that was incredible foresight in planning or blind luck doesn't matter. The weapon was in being when needed, produced by the tens of thousands, and added the luxury of ease of supply by limiting the need of but a single cartridge type having to be produced and shipped all over the world.
Obviously, it was effective in fighter to fighter combat in Europe where U.S. pilots rarely had to fight German bombers because of the incredible ineptitude and short sightedness of German planning. As an added bonus, the Japanese aided the cause of the .50 cal by making A/C easily destroyed by it. When the air war switched over to ground attack it was by far and away the better weapon by virtue of being compact enough to allow every major U.S. fighter plane to carry it by the hundreds. A luxury, I'm sure, any pilot would appreciate. It doesn't matter a bit if the .50 cal destroyed a single Tiger tank as is the common joke here. What it did destroy was enough to help defeat the enemy.


Thx for the clip Bo_Nidle. Now I know where your avatar comes from. Always wondered who it was.

Re the 2nd kill. I have seen still photos I believe are of this kill. The caption speculated that a lucky hit to the oxygen cylinder caused the explosion.

It's obvious that the .50 cals are hitting something in the wing. Now it's a question of "how often" That part of the wing is full of explosives, but how easy was it to set off? Are these the only instances of this happening, or did it happen 50% of the time?

What I also find interesting is what the planes do after losing a wing: The don't instantly start corkscrewing, but initially roll slowly. This is especially true for a bomber which is much more massive/has more inertia. It seems in the game the C-47 are more or less correct: De-wing it and it slowly lurches over on it's side, and then falls. Do the same to the Fw-200 and it looks like a little leaf in the wind, fluttering back and forth at a rate that would rip it to bits. To me this kills the sense of scale a bit.

I'm certain that any caliber round penetrating to whatever detonates inside the wing will dismember it, not just .50s.

In John Weal's Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Aces of the Russian Front (Osprey 1995, ISBN 952-5186-21-0), there is mentioned a case where 2nd Liutenant Norbert Hannig fells victim to sabotage South of Leningrad in May 1943 flying an FW190A4.

Someone had done something to a HE ammo in the outer wing cannon, it had exploded inside the barrrel, and the following APIT round had partially stucked in the barrel, and a 3rd round, a Minengeschloss one, had exploded when it hit the APIT round, blowing up a huge hole in the wing and destroying the MG-FF cannon. He managed to crash-land, his wing, engine, fuselage and cockpit filled with shrapnel holes, luckily himself intact.

I will not quote the book for you because my example is in Finnish...

Its not a far out speculation because seeing footage and reading pilots reports is enough to know that it did happen and sometimes very catastrophically.

I'm not sure why people would have a problem excepting that the HE rounds were just another vital part of the aircraft, like the engine, fuel tanks, as well as the pilot and controls.

This is not to be a 50 porking thread. Just know that 50s themselves were intended to work on the vitals above.