I saw some footage recently of what i thought was 50 cals punching the wings off a 190 with one quick burst, and then it was explained that the 50 cal actually has a catastrophic effect on cannon ammunition located in the wings. Apparently the use of an ammunition drum is to blame, if you could imagine having all the cannon rounds on your wing detonate at once.


actually. don't imagine it...here it is:

http://video.google.com/videop...8324640976189633970#

I just thought i'd make another point about the 50s and there intended use, and how they were still very detrimental to fighter planes despite not actually containing HE rounds.
So much for bigger wing spars

D:
Mah wing!

I highly doubt that all cannon rounds would detonate, perhaps a few at most IMO. Still more than enough, especially since it's an explosion from the inside out, even one round would do much more damage due to the pressure from every side as opposed to an outside 20mm hit.

Interesting. It certainly looks like it could be cannon ammo exploding being the cause of the wing failure - It is happening in the same part of the wing in each shot.

Is there much data available on the vunerability of MG and cannon rounds to gunfire? I can imagine it being more of a problem with large-calibre HE ammo.

That spot happens to be where the inner wing spar is attached to the outer wing spar.

Its argued that this is from hitting the cannon drum, and possibly using linear linkages would've minimized the catastrophic effects of igniting an entire cannon drum. On the otherhand, my thought is a cannon drum also makes for a smaller target than having live rounds sprawled out inside the wing. either way, it is very surprising footage, and tantimount to even the 190s vulnerability under such conditions.

I have to wonder if the 109s and Spits also had this vulnerability from carrying cannons in the wings, and if it was not also another consideration for the use of 50 cal on US birds.

quote:

Originally posted by BillSwagger:
I saw some footage recently of what i thought was 50 cals punching the wings off a 190 with one quick burst, and then it was explained that the 50 cal actually has a catastrophic effect on cannon ammunition located in the wings. Apparently the use of an ammunition drum is to blame, if you could imagine having all the cannon rounds on your wing detonate at once.


actually. don't imagine it...here it is:

http://video.google.com/videop...8324640976189633970#

I just thought i'd make another point about the 50s and there intended use, and how they were still very detrimental to fighter planes despite not actually containing HE rounds.
So much for bigger wing spars

I'm not sure but the 190 in the video posted might have been armed with MK108 thus this spectacular explosion. But I think the "wing off" would happen with 20mm too.

AFAIK it is modelled in IL2, yet we don't have the terrific explosion effects.

IL2 FW190 pilots call it the "glass FW190A" syndrom. BTW this is the reason why many of them asked Oleg for a lighter FW190 as fighter equipped only with 2X20mm in the wingroots, and also why some consider the BF109 more useful in online wars, where some AI are able to hit the wing off box quite easily.

20MM punches wings off P-47s easily:

quote:

Straight in front was a Thunderbolt, as I completed my turn I opened fire on him immediately...My fire was so heavy his left wing came off almost at once and I watched him go down.

Later in the same sortie:

quote:

There were 10 P-47s and four of us and we were all turning as hard as we could, as in a Lufbery. I was able to turn tighter and was gaining. I pulled within 80 yards of the P-47 ahead of me and opened fire. I hit him quickly and two of the othres got one each, so that in a minute and a half three of the P-47s went down..."

Georg-Peter Eder, 14 July 1943.

On this sortie, Eder destroyed a B-17 and two P-47s, each with only a quick burst from the 20MM cannons. No rare shots into explosive ammo bays required.

quote:

Originally posted by ROXunreal:
D:
Mah wing!

I highly doubt that all cannon rounds would detonate, perhaps a few at most IMO. Still more than enough, especially since it's an explosion from the inside out, even one round would do much more damage due to the pressure from every side as opposed to an outside 20mm hit.

One or two 30mm would be enough, remember in real life, only two or three of them were enough to down a viermot.

One of the kills on that footage is froma a Hawker Tempest guncam here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQTfXVqNo9A

Can't say for others although one looks quite familiar. The ammo exploding in the wings I've heard about before so it's not like I don't believe it or want to dispute it or anything like that but I don't think such things happened often at all...

BTW i cannot see where in this video only a "quick" 50.cal burst punches wings off FW190 "easily".

quote:

Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
20MM punches wings off P-47s easily:

quote:

Straight in front was a Thunderbolt, as I completed my turn I opened fire on him immediately...My fire was so heavy his left wing came off almost at once and I watched him go down.

Later in the same sortie:

quote:

There were 10 P-47s and four of us and we were all turning as hard as we could, as in a Lufbery. I was able to turn tighter and was gaining. I pulled within 80 yards of the P-47 ahead of me and opened fire. I hit him quickly and two of the othres got one each, so that in a minute and a half three of the P-47s went down..."

Georg-Peter Eder, 14 July 1943.

On this sortie, Eder destroyed a B-17 and two P-47s, each with only a quick burst from the 20MM cannons. No rare shots into explosive ammo bays required.

You couldn't resist mentioning this.

I find pilots accounts to be good story telling. I have yet to see anything close to what german pilots like this have described, although i'm sure it must've occured, but images are much more convincing, you agree?
It also seems to be fairly well modeled in game, as getting hit in the wings by a cannon shell seems to take it off pretty quickly no matter the plane.

I just wonder more about this wing off effect from machine gunfire considering the footage above, and that it also seems to have repeatedly occurred.

I can already sense the loading of the game, and nrtk records being made. This should be good.

Didnt just about every USAAF fighter from 43 onwards, at least in the 8th AF, have gun cams?

How many kills did they get over 190 and 109?

How many records do we have of 109s or 190s losing wings?

quote:

Originally posted by Brain32:
One of the kills on that footage is froma a Hawker Tempest guncam here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQTfXVqNo9A

Can't say for others although one looks quite familiar. The ammo exploding in the wings I've heard about before so it's not like I don't believe it or want to dispute it or anything like that but I don't think such things happened often at all...

hmmm...that is interesting and i would only say that the source i have mentions the clips were taken from 78th fg P-47s in late 1943.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was some cross referencing where the same images are used in documentaries about separate aircraft.

I've seen Hellcat footage on P-51 programs for example. Sorry for any confusion if that's the case.

quote:

Originally posted by BillSwagger:

I find pilots accounts to be good story telling. I have yet to see anything close to what german pilots like this have described, although i'm sure it must've occured, but images are much more convincing, you agree?

I hear you about images being much more convincing, i agree to some extent but keep in mind that for some reason there are much more image from allies shooting down axis aircrafts.

Too bad there are not much images from what happened on june the 7th 1944 over western France, but in the other hand maybe it is better like that, for we could have drawn completely wrong conclusions:

1./JG5 officer Hauptm Weissenberger:

9:05, sector SE5, north-east from Montdidier, 1 P47 claimed

9:26, sector SE9, south-east from Montdidier, 1 P47 claimed

9:27, same sector, 1 P47 claimed

Later in the day...

17:15, sector TE5, near Beauvais, 1 P47 claimed

17:16, near Beauvais, 1 P47 claimed

So was it easy to shoot down P47? Answer: no, it is just that lucky aces are able to do things average guys rarely dare to dream about.

Was it easy to shoot down a FW190A wing off? I don't think so.
Were there lucky aces in the USAAF? No doubt about that.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/thunderbolt.html

This will be a few pages long.
I don't believe that the ammunition in the wing is part of the damage model, is it?
If not, I am sure this is addressed in Oleg's newest creation.

I imagine any hits and detonations in the ammunition belt were pretty much lethal to enemy aircraft. 12,7mm (.50cal) round detonation in the wing would be serious damage as well.
In the video I believe several rounds detonated considering the blasts.

this proves the long standing myth:

Henschel Tigers were stored in 190 wings

quote:

Originally posted by RegRag1977:

quote:

Originally posted by BillSwagger:

I find pilots accounts to be good story telling. I have yet to see anything close to what german pilots like this have described, although i'm sure it must've occured, but images are much more convincing, you agree?

I hear you about images being much more convincing, i agree to some extent but keep in mind that for some reason there are much more image from allies shooting down axis aircrafts.

Too bad there are not much images from what happened on june the 7th 1944 over western France, but in the other hand maybe it is better like that, for we could have drawn completely wrong conclusions:

1./JG5 officer Hauptm Weissenberger:

9:05, sector SE5, north-east from Montdidier, 1 P47 claimed

9:26, sector SE9, south-east from Montdidier, 1 P47 claimed

9:27, same sector, 1 P47 claimed

Later in the day...

17:15, sector TE5, near Beauvais, 1 P47 claimed

17:16, near Beauvais, 1 P47 claimed

So was it easy to shoot down P47? Answer: no, it is just that lucky aces are able to do things average guys rarely dare to dream about.

Was it easy to shoot down a FW190A wing off? I don't think so.
Were there lucky aces in the USAAF? No doubt about that.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/thunderbolt.html

Yeah, i know planes were shot down on all sides, and I'm not going to nit pick pilot accounts or different battles, even numbers have a way of skewing things. I'm just amused that i bring up this vulnerability of the ammunition drums on FWs and then an immediate retort is how the P-47 wings are taken off by 20mm.


Actually looking into it, the 20mm/30mm ammunition canister/drum was resting on the 9th wing rib. It would be akin to having several sticks of dynamite packed into to that location of the wing, with no protection whatsoever and if it exploded that's where the wing separated.
These were typical armaments of Fw190A series planes. Armor must've been too much of a burden for at least maybe having more maneuverability than being shot in the first place.

I'm sure they had to fix this or at least offer some way to better protect the unspent rounds from gunfire.

I still question if this was a common problem using cannon drums on other planes?

quote:

Henschel Tigers were stored in 190 wings

LMAO!

Yet another .50 caliber thread....it just never gets old does it?

The 50 cal. is the 88 mm of the fighter aircraft world. Just accept it naysayers.