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Forums 1C:Maddox Games IL2 Maddox General Discussion Worst misleading expert advices for air combat in IL-2|
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Wrong: "If you think you are close, get closer."
Consequences of the wrong advice: collision with the E/A, or in more nible fighters (e.g., Zero) comsumed by the sudden explosion of the E/A Correct advice: open fire from a distance of your convergence range, not sooner. However, do not get closer than 50 meters. Wrong: "Never let anyone get on your six" Consequence: unnecessary turning and twising in situations when extending would be a better option against a slower E/A. Correct: never let anyone get on your six within effective firing range (500-600m) Wrong: "Lose the sight, lose the fight" Consequence: unnecessary manouvers to keep track the E/A in sight, leading to energy bleeding Correct: always know where the E/A is - mostly by visual tracking, however when that is impossible for short times, you can track "mentally" without seeing, simply by knowing what manouvers the E/A can do according to its flight envelope, energy state, pilot skill etc. Wrong: "As a beginner, always take double amount of deflection than you would do" Consequence: consistently shooting in front of the E/A Correct: as a beginner, experiment with moving your aim along the flight path of the E/A and watch for impacts Wrong: "Always keep your speed up". Consequence: inability to finish off the E/A Correct: always keep sufficient manouvering speed in combat, this is higher for modern high-speed aircraft, and lower for older type biplanes. Wrong: "Never turn". Consequence: you imitate a V-1 and fly off the map in a straight line Correct: do not make hard turns or strong manouvers at high speed, but you can turn hard for example on the top of your high yo-yo, where your speed is lower (energy is stored in your height). Do you know more of these?  |
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BnZ = Energy fighting
Couldn't be more away from the truth. No one in sane mind ever turns when he has any other option. ~ DKoor |
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rnzoli knows all about air combat - wrong.
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+1 |
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+1 Funny in many ways, but true, nevertheless for a great part of it. |
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Best real advice on air combat. Learn the manauvers and then learn for yourself. Don't count on "expert advice".
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 In a dogfight there's never a situation just like the other and while these advices can be true at some point, they can be totally wrong at another point. Be flexible, don't boresight and practice. Only keys you need to survive. greets Capt.LoneRanger  |
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As I heard in Porco Rosso (Crimson skies in English I think...) :
"The best quality of a pilot is not experience, it's inspiration." You are facing so many different situations in air combat that you can't just rely on experience to get out of every situation. For example, I know a really skilled Spit pilot that kept shooting me down in my 110 on Warclouds. Lately, I got him twice at high altitude flying with a good deflection because his experience taught him one way to come out of the range of my guns. But this time I countered that manouevre and got him. What I did twice again already.... There's always an adaptation from the enemy, because while offline, we are not flying against bots but against other humans. Except for people who like getting shot down all the times, the rookies will try new ways of survival.  BE AFRAID ! ALLIED TARGETS WILL BURN TO THE GROUND ! |
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Altitude and energy are your two best friends.
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I think these are the weirdest names ever given to "your two best friends".   greets Capt.LoneRanger |
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rnzoli truly sucks at air combat, but has enough experience to recognize bullsh!tting  |
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How would you describe their relationship in a correct way? |
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Double lead rule costed me a lot of kills since I gave too much lead that way.
An even better advide than double lead would be- anticipate you E/A movement and position yourself so you will have a low deflection shot- high offangle shots are the not real kill situatons since you will miss 80% of them. The only real way to get better is to fly. Eventualy you get a lot calmer, things seem to happen slower, you barely move the stick at all and eventualy RTB more and more. |
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IL2 Moderator |
Could you guys explain this a bit more please?  )))-------------------------------------------------------------  "Over Dieppe, the wing was immediately bounced by a hundred FW 190s and a few Me 109s. I heard Johnson effing and blinding as he broke 610 into a fierce attack. I was hard at it dodging 190s, but I found time to speak sharply to Johnson about his foul language." - WingCo Jaime Jameson 12 Group Spitfire |
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BnZ
You normally start with an altitude advantage. Opponent is much lower than you. You dive on him, give him a burst, then you have the energy to climb right back up to where you were. If he tries to climb up to where you are, he will bleed off his speed. You are like a vulture, swooping down for the kill, then back up to your safe zone. If you have altitude, then you have stored energy, ready for when you need it. |
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With these threads I always say one word... 'Imagination'.
Without it, 'you hit the silk'...  Gimme ... GARLIC & BEETROOT. Also don't forget my hospital Hard Tack |
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Here we go again! Well, Boom and Zoom is a technique, which is allways best to employ in aerial combat. It has nothing to do with either stall (angles) or energy fighting. What separates the two? Simple, initial E state. You cannot BnZ without considerable initial energy advantage over opponent, while you can energy fight (just like you can stall fight) an opponent without initial E advantage. In short: if you have considerable E advantage, use BnZ, in any plane versus any opponent. Now that goes for every plane, without any relation to what is it believed to be, an energy or a stall fighter. You can effectively BnZ a 190A in a spitfire. You can BnZ a Thunderbolt in a 109 or even in a Zero for that matter! But, on the other side, stating that having sufficient E advantage is imperative to emerge from an aerial combat as victor, is nothing short of excusing a poor performing plane. You can BnZ a mustang in a Ki-27. BnZ is most effectively used against unwary, straight flying (or being busy with some other activities) opponents. It is simply a flaw of this sim that the best stall fighters are also among the best energy fighters, forcing so called energy fighters to use BnZ to effectively dispatch stall fighter opponents, which leads to many virtual IL2 pilots having problems between distinguishing energy fighting from boom and zoom. It is by no means logical, that Spitfire or Yak3 being superb stall fighters, are not also the very best energy fighters in this sim, while so called "energy fighters" suck at both (but they do excel at BnZ, especially the 190). In order to visualise what energy (dog)fighting is, take two IL2 veterans, sat one in an A6 or A8, the other one in a mustang or tempest, let them start head on, same alt with guns cold, and let them go loud when they pass eachother. They won't turn (in their sane mind, as DKoor would say ), instead, they'll zoom climb, trying to gain higher before stall, or trying to stall later than the opponent. That's energy fighting, it's like a pendulum. It was very nicely portrayed by Bud Anderson in his famous interview of how he fought the well flown 109 (posted here not long ago). Both planes were zoom climbing, and Bud managed to gain higher (and stalled later) than 109 (in their second zoom climb). When they stalled and tipped over, the 109 was doomed. And that was from roughly equal initial E state! (We have to consider here, that sustained climbing performance has very little or nothing to do with zoom climb.)Or the link that you posted some time ago here about Eric Brown stating spitfireV pilots were trying to do everything to draw the 190s into a turning contest, while at the same time preventing them to fight in vertical. Why? Because historially 190 was way better in vertical (referring mostly to zoom climb and initial acceleration in a dive). This had nothing to do with 190s initial E advantage. No one in sane mind ever turns when he has any other option. ~ DKoor |
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That works if you are holding range or closing slowly on the target. If you are closing fast then subtract a couple to a few 10's of meters from your range to get the effective range and timing of your shots.
Some of those are consequences of misinterpreting advice but they do show what happens when you do and they do show the pitfalls of loose words in advice or reducing advice to few words. There are ways to keep speed up and finish slow enemies off but for sure you want to stay near maneuver speed which is in the 400kph range for most of these planes. Too much more and your turn radius will be large, but that can be planned for. Sig: My views are my own. You don't like em, get in line. |
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No. BnZ is hit and run with -maybe- coming back. Energy-fighting is closer to what you describe though it's much more besides yet what you describe also includes BnZ as a working element. With BnZ you may allow the target time to get his speed back up if he survives the firing pass in such a state that lets him. Using energy tactics you do not since it's relative energy that matters. Not the qualifying word 'may' in there. Hartmann wrote of the hit and run approach, never mixing it up. Over 350 credited kills and survived the war speaks well. He set his hits up to have un-followable exits behind the tail of the target at large angle to the path of the target. He was the essence of BnZ! Sig: My views are my own. You don't like em, get in line. |
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TinyTim you might benefit much from reading a certain book by Robert Shaw.......
In energy fighting it is best to have the higher thrust to weight. With these prop planes, unlike with jets (why even Shaw must be read and interpreted carefully, he writes mostly for modern jet combat) the speed you are flying has a -huge- impact on your thrust. At 400kph and less a SpitIX will out-accelerate most any FW. At 600kph and more the opposite holds true. The speed of combat is critical to which holds the advantage. Sure the Spit pilot can slow down and stall turn his speed away. If he can lure the FW pilot to play that game then he pretty much holds the winning cards. If not then the FW pilot can dance all over the Spit pilot's head and win the energy fight. If you start the fight with an energy advantage then you can for a time at least negate a T/W deficiency or equality between you and the target. That's how Spits can bounce FW's even at high speed. It should be noted that energy advantage does not require starting at higher altitude. If you are moving faster than the target then you have an energy advantage as well. It's just that with these prop planes, altitude is generally worth a good bit of speed. Try approaching a friend from behind at greater speed and going into a shallow climb from 1km back. How much alt have you gained by the time you are at the same speed tells about how much alt that extra speed might be equal to, if you dive and level off just as cleanly. Sig: My views are my own. You don't like em, get in line. |
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Forums 1C:Maddox Games IL2 Maddox General Discussion Worst misleading expert advices for air combat in IL-2
