quote:

Originally posted by DKoor:

quote:

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I wonder how many WWII pilots died because they thought they knew the stack-up and did not?

+1 I'm quite sure that the number of such incidents in ww2 would be surprising...

quote:

I don't even count the big surprises when new models came out for one side or the other,
just the times when there were more variables than the pilot had considered.

I specifically remembered one P-38 pilot (in MTO), Joel Owens of 27FS, saying how, in one of the times he encountered a Bf-109's, he shot one down in quite unordinary way...

He said something like how 109 tried sharp climb in order to get rid of him and so German just pulled his Messerschmitt straight up in a zoom climb; but the P-38 was able to follow that, and to a German horror he actually realized that P-38 is closing on him! And by some miracle 109 pilot survived that maneuver...
Bf-109 pilot couldn't believe it, when he saw the P-38 latching onto his tail again and as a desperate move he again went into a sharp climb!
But this time he ran out of luck as the American aimed well.

Owens was convinced that his opponent had experiences with Tomahawks, Kittyhawks and perhaps even Hurricanes...

quote:

Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:

quote:

Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:

quote:

-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

Not even close lol. The Dora out turns the Mustang with ease regardless of speed or altitude. It also out climbs and out dives the Mustang. It is faster then the Mustang at any altitude as well. The FW-190D is far superior to the P-51D in every way. Actually its not even close.

S!

Sigh... I outrun Doras daily on the most difficult server out there, Warclouds!! As turning goes, its 50-50 I would say, sometimes I win easely and sometimes its a difficult match. What I have noticed is that the 190, regardless of type, expericene more buffeting when getting close to the stall. This might make the less experienced 190 pilot turn less tight...
But as I said, I outrun Doras daily!! Its all a question of trim!! Its like this, if you start at low speed and accelerate the p51 wont go faster than either the 109 or 190, However if both of you start at ANY speed above max cruise speed (i.e after a dive) the p51 will keep its speed longer than ANYTHING and also outrun it!! I promise!

quote:

Originally posted by Brain32:
FW190 on P51:
1) If P51 has some alt below to use it can even outmatch a 109, the trick is to convert the altitude into speed and use superior AoA capatibility to create a separation in turn, after that there can only be two outcomes:

a) opposing plane panics and pulls too hard trying to compensate the separation you created, he ofcourse looses a wagonload of speed and can no longer hold your sustained turn - you win.

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IL2 tracks

quote:

Originally posted by Brain32:

quote:

Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:

quote:

Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:

quote:

-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

Not even close lol. The Dora out turns the Mustang with ease regardless of speed or altitude. It also out climbs and out dives the Mustang. It is faster then the Mustang at any altitude as well. The FW-190D is far superior to the P-51D in every way. Actually its not even close.

S!

Sigh... I outrun Doras daily on the most difficult server out there, Warclouds!! As turning goes, its 50-50 I would say, sometimes I win easely and sometimes its a difficult match. What I have noticed is that the 190, regardless of type, expericene more buffeting when getting close to the stall. This might make the less experienced 190 pilot turn less tight...
But as I said, I outrun Doras daily!! Its all a question of trim!! Its like this, if you start at low speed and accelerate the p51 wont go faster than either the 109 or 190, However if both of you start at ANY speed above max cruise speed (i.e after a dive) the p51 will keep its speed longer than ANYTHING and also outrun it!! I promise!

Thx Kling, but now the "famous" ubi aces will accuse you of being Brain32

If I had a coin for every Dora ace wannabe that though he can outturn me and ended up a smoking hole in the ground, well...I wouldn't have to wait to come home from my job to write this lol.

Anyway if you are in a Dora and end up with me or Kling or about 60% of WarClouds P51 pilots on your six, THE ONLY WAY OUT is trying to lure us into slow scissors fight this is the only place where FW has an edge since P51 rolls badly at low speed and even if a capable pilot is in control of the P51 he will still have to face bad nose oscilations as he uses his rudder to enhance the roll rate.
More about the turn from several positions:

FW190 on P51:
1) If P51 has some alt below to use it can even outmatch a 109, the trick is to convert the altitude into speed and use superior AoA capatibility to create a separation in turn, after that there can only be two outcomes:

a) opposing plane panics and pulls too hard trying to compensate the separation you created, he ofcourse looses a wagonload of speed and can no longer hold your sustained turn - you win.

b) he sees what you are doing and pulls up, you did keep some speed did you? Well the fight starts over and this time it can often be on equal terms...if you really know how to keep your E you can do this many times until you completely drain your opponent and eventully hammer him down with super weak 50's that can only cut 109's in half with single bursts but yes, I know - those darn Tiger tanks.... arrrgh.

2)P51 pilot was a F idiot, he left himself no alt below it and did a pi$$ poor job on SA so it's caught "pants down" on the deck by the FW190D9. Well my dear UBI aces, WHAT TO F do you want? Does EVERY allied plane has to be a F Spitfire?

P51D on a FW190(D or A, they all look the same in my K-14):
- please, please turn infront of my P51D, it's a nice little D20 with Dutch markings(Red triangles) and white number 32 on it, do not by any circumstance try to lure me into slow scissors fight, just make a big fat nice sustained left hand turn because hey, the ubi aces TM recommend that tactics, it has to be t3h best

quote:

Originally posted by Brain32:
Well my dear UBI aces, WHAT TO F do you want? Does EVERY allied plane has to be a F Spitfire?

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"Over Dieppe, the wing was immediately bounced by a hundred FW 190s and a few Me 109s. I heard Johnson effing and blinding as he broke 610 into a fierce attack. I was hard at it dodging 190s, but I found time to speak sharply to Johnson about his foul language." - WingCo Jaime Jameson 12 Group Spitfire

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You could have some very good info if you didnt act like such a t*t. Why not use it to help the newer/less skillful guys rather than sl*g them off?

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If all these other guys posting help/their experiences are 'UBI Aces' (in condascending tone), then what are you?

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I recall a time seeing you online get shot down over and over in a FW190A and asking for red to 'lend you a SPitfire', soon after you switched to red and flew the plane that you so often **** off others for using (noobs etc etc). I dont recall anyone calling you 'noob' or 'Spitnoob' in that situation (although now I am wishing I had, might have taught you a lesson)

quote:

Originally posted by Brain32:

quote:

Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:

quote:

Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:

quote:

-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

Not even close lol. The Dora out turns the Mustang with ease regardless of speed or altitude. It also out climbs and out dives the Mustang. It is faster then the Mustang at any altitude as well. The FW-190D is far superior to the P-51D in every way. Actually its not even close.

S!

Sigh... I outrun Doras daily on the most difficult server out there, Warclouds!! As turning goes, its 50-50 I would say, sometimes I win easely and sometimes its a difficult match. What I have noticed is that the 190, regardless of type, expericene more buffeting when getting close to the stall. This might make the less experienced 190 pilot turn less tight...
But as I said, I outrun Doras daily!! Its all a question of trim!! Its like this, if you start at low speed and accelerate the p51 wont go faster than either the 109 or 190, However if both of you start at ANY speed above max cruise speed (i.e after a dive) the p51 will keep its speed longer than ANYTHING and also outrun it!! I promise!

Thx Kling, but now the "famous" ubi aces will accuse you of being Brain32

If I had a coin for every Dora ace wannabe that though he can outturn me and ended up a smoking hole in the ground, well...I wouldn't have to wait to come home from my job to write this lol.

Anyway if you are in a Dora and end up with me or Kling or about 60% of WarClouds P51 pilots on your six, THE ONLY WAY OUT is trying to lure us into slow scissors fight this is the only place where FW has an edge since P51 rolls badly at low speed and even if a capable pilot is in control of the P51 he will still have to face bad nose oscilations as he uses his rudder to enhance the roll rate.
More about the turn from several positions:

FW190 on P51:
1) If P51 has some alt below to use it can even outmatch a 109, the trick is to convert the altitude into speed and use superior AoA capatibility to create a separation in turn, after that there can only be two outcomes:

a) opposing plane panics and pulls too hard trying to compensate the separation you created, he ofcourse looses a wagonload of speed and can no longer hold your sustained turn - you win.

b) he sees what you are doing and pulls up, you did keep some speed did you? Well the fight starts over and this time it can often be on equal terms...if you really know how to keep your E you can do this many times until you completely drain your opponent and eventully hammer him down with super weak 50's that can only cut 109's in half with single bursts but yes, I know - those darn Tiger tanks.... arrrgh.

2)P51 pilot was a F idiot, he left himself no alt below it and did a pi$$ poor job on SA so it's caught "pants down" on the deck by the FW190D9. Well my dear UBI aces, WHAT TO F do you want? Does EVERY allied plane has to be a F Spitfire?

P51D on a FW190(D or A, they all look the same in my K-14):
- please, please turn infront of my P51D, it's a nice little D20 with Dutch markings(Red triangles) and white number 32 on it, do not by any circumstance try to lure me into slow scissors fight, just make a big fat nice sustained left hand turn because hey, the ubi aces TM recommend that tactics, it has to be t3h best

quote:

Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Dora is better E fighter, especially at lower alts, going into turn fight where difference is marginal is not very smart IMO.

My experience is that when I'm in Dora that only two kind of P-51 are dangerous.

1. One I don't see, but in that situation any opponent is dangerous

2. P-51 with rear gunner because that's where they always end, right in front of my guns. As I never encountered P-51 with rear gunner, sitting in their six doesn't scare me much.

FC

VMF-214 The Original BlackSheep of the IL2 series is currently recruiting mature and dedicated pilots. Please visit us at http://vmf214blacksheep.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
should all be grateful 51s and FWs are not even remotely as FUBAR'd as 38s

heck, just having comressibility modelled for every other type in game (at their respective critical mach speeds of course) would be worth it to hear the hue and cry go up

"this is a spitfire not a 109, wtf? i always read that 109s lawn-darted, not spitfires!"
"boo-hoo! i CANT break the wings on my 51 anymore"
"a hacker put B1 rocket FM on my J2M5!"
"Oleg my Yak's elevator controls reverse in a dive, please fix this bug"

quote:

Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
should all be grateful 51s and FWs are not even remotely as FUBAR'd as 38s

quote:

heck, just having comressibility modelled for every other type in game (at their respective critical mach speeds of course) would be worth it to hear the hue and cry go up

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"this is a spitfire not a 109, wtf? i always read that 109s lawn-darted, not spitfires!"
"boo-hoo! i CANT break the wings on my 51 anymore"

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"a hacker put B1 rocket FM on my J2M5!"

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"Oleg my Yak's elevator controls reverse in a dive, please fix this bug"

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IL2 tracks

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Originally posted by FatCat_99:

quote:

Originally posted by DKoor:
FW-190A5 seems to be a better aircraft regarding top speed performance over FW-190A6...
Also FW-190A5-1,65AtA seems to be faster up to 6,000m than both of the mentioned types... however from 1,500m to 3,000m both are faster than 1,65AtA!

FW-190A5          SL      576
FW-190A5*        6500     680
FW-190A5-165      SL      589
FW-190A5-165*    5700     662
FW-190A6          SL      576
FW-190A6*        6500     658

* - best alt speed
Data from V4.08, tested in game.

FW-190A8 is a dog compared to them, at least from IL2 Compare . I haven't tested FW-190A8...

Retest A6, it is using same FM as A5 so there shouldn't be difference in speed at alt, 22 kmh difference seems to be too much.

FC

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quote:

Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
That question was which plane does what better, which plane has the best performance. The answer is clearly the FW-190D. It simply does everything better then the Mustang.

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But also as someone said here, a fw190 with a P51 on its six stands a much better chance of surviving and making it back to base than vice versa due to the cannons creating alot of damage but the 50s being fairly weak from dead 6..

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OK that's great, me and Kling for example just love 190D9 pilots that think like that Happy

VMF-214 The Original BlackSheep of the IL2 series is currently recruiting mature and dedicated pilots. Please visit us at http://vmf214blacksheep.com/