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Yes, strangely from around 2,000m to 4,000m P-51D has some speed advantage over Dora... that is useful.
I would go that far and add that slight advantage in speed over 7,500m is not really useable unless in specific conditions, as most fights happens at lower alts. Meh... |
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Sigh... I outrun Doras daily on the most difficult server out there, Warclouds!! As turning goes, its 50-50 I would say, sometimes I win easely and sometimes its a difficult match. What I have noticed is that the 190, regardless of type, expericene more buffeting when getting close to the stall. This might make the less experienced 190 pilot turn less tight... But as I said, I outrun Doras daily!! Its all a question of trim!! Its like this, if you start at low speed and accelerate the p51 wont go faster than either the 109 or 190, However if both of you start at ANY speed above max cruise speed (i.e after a dive) the p51 will keep its speed longer than ANYTHING and also outrun it!! I promise! |
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IL2 Moderator |
I didnt realise it was this clear cut. The Dora IS almost a year newer than the P51D, so I guess we should not be TOO surprised. Because the Dora is so common online, and it was actually rare in WW2 (most being destroyed on the ground before they even got into the air, or destroyed on their first sortie) we should have a higher boosted rare version of the P51D too. Its a fact that Axis side has all its late war, high boosted prop planes, plus jets, yet the Western Allies are missing their late birds such as the High Boost US Mustang, Spitfire XIV, Gloster Meteor, Corsair -4 etc. The Dora is massively over-represented online compared its real life numbers. The P-51D's natural enemy should be the late Antons, along with three-quarters Bf109G6's and quarter BF109G10/G14. far more likely to be Dora vs 5 P51's Now, I LOVE the Dora, and any FW190's, but comparing the P51D to the Dora is not really fair. SPitfire XIV vs Dora is a far more balanced/fair Scenario, each saw a fair amount of combat, but compared to the 'main' types' they were relatively rare. 1200-1500 Doras produced, most destroyed very quickly, many on the ground/in transit. Very few sorties flown by each aircraft. 700 Spitfire XIV's produced before wars end, few losses, lots of sorties flown by each aircraft produced. -------------------------------------------------------------  "Over Dieppe, the wing was immediately bounced by a hundred FW 190s and a few Me 109s. I heard Johnson effing and blinding as he broke 610 into a fierce attack. I was hard at it dodging 190s, but I found time to speak sharply to Johnson about his foul language." - WingCo Jaime Jameson 12 Group Spitfire |
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Well said Xiola.
 Pity Oleg never gave us the ability to limit the numbers of different types of aircraft for online dogfight maps, like 2 Doras, 6 A-8s, 6 G-10s and 6 G-6s. Now if both D-9 slots get occupied, you would have to fly something else... This way it would also be easy to implement the advanced rare types like Me-262 on 44/45 maps. SC has the ability to limit the cumulative number of AC, but this many times does not achieve its purpose, since everyone first goes for the best AC, and when they run out of them, they are all forced to fly the underdogs; in the end it's like having two different maps. "In short, the Spitfire MkIX was the best fighting machine of its day. Its great tactical advantage was that, apart from its longer nose and more numerous exhaust stacks, it looked exactly like the inferior Spitfire MkV, and in the air the Germans would not know the difference - until we hit them." ~ Wg Cdr J E 'Johnnie' Johnson |
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You come and out turn me in a Mustang while Im in a Dora. And the most difficult server comment is very funny. PM me on HL. S!  VMF-214 The Original BlackSheep of the IL2 series is currently recruiting mature and dedicated pilots. Please visit us at http://vmf214blacksheep.com/ |
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Yep, its that simple. And you do realize Im talking "in game" performance here. It easily proven where as talking real world we could argue forever. S! VMF-214 The Original BlackSheep of the IL2 series is currently recruiting mature and dedicated pilots. Please visit us at http://vmf214blacksheep.com/ |
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IIRC the first P-51D's arrived in ETO sometime around May 1944  .There is a FW-190D9 1944 model in game... well. I'm confused.  I'm not nitpicking just...  +1 It would mostly take a few alterations and more or less copy/paste model...
That is quite true... and online all you see is 70% (at least!) axis ETO 1944 planeset consisting of 190D. Yeah judging by the numbers available at time, etc... +1 But due to online shortcomings (read = whine) try to limit the FW-190D... even to a 1945 model  eh eh, would be like... general riot  .7,956 P-51D's and 1,500 P-51K's (Dallas built P-51D) were built by North American... source; http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avp512.html So I judge your number to be about right (5:1). As it is will never see the combat in IL2. A pitty really... Along with another few models; FW-190A4 (boost), Tempest Mk.V (boost), Mustang Mk.IV... etc. |
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You can limit the numbers of a particular aircraft online. Actually many servers do this. If using FBD you just limit the amount of spawn points at a particular base. IL2 Server Commander gives you the power to limit any aircraft you wish and even ordinance. S! VMF-214 The Original BlackSheep of the IL2 series is currently recruiting mature and dedicated pilots. Please visit us at http://vmf214blacksheep.com/ |
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Just to be clear, I also think now that it's quite a clear situation, since I easily see FW-190D excelling over P-51D on a regular online mission... (fighter sweeps and low/mid alt escorts-interceptions). Several months ago I flew the FW-190D on Warclouds for quite some time... and TBH I never got shot down by a P-51D, once I got bounced by one but he zoomed up and didn't finished me so I crash landed over friendly territory... that would be about it.
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There should be a big caveat when discussing plane X vs plane Y, that being the planes do not
fly themselves! Planes as close as these two, pilots do not have to be far apart in skill to overshadow the differences. Even one very good at piloting can lose just by not fitting tactics to the planes matched and situation, ie they may work well vs another plane and/or situation but lose vs the current enemy. IMO that makes these a good match and to heck with historic numbers on DF where so much else is utterly not historic. But for numbers... is it better to count nation's planes or experienced pilots at the time? "My views are solely my own and do not reflect the views of my Squad or its members" |
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Plane V. Plane PAH!
This is something I have always pondered over the past 7 years of IL2. And one of the reasons I don't fly Online. That is you will come accross folks trying to outfly each other in scenarios that could never have happened in RL. Mustangs. Did shoot down 190Ds and Visa-versa.. However the oppertunities were merely that and not because of the minutae of plane performance. It may help in a certain situation. (And these are the ones most argued/discussed about). However War/Missions/your numbers/performance/firepower/experience. And that of the enemy are only Pure guestimates when it comes to R.L. Combat. Ju-87s/Me110s shouldn't be able to shoot down Spitfires. But of course they did. Rear gunners as snipers? Jeez oh! They claimed more than some airforces combined. One on one Mustang v 190D any experience Wartime RL. MMmmm... It is a brave man that told that tale.   The only real plane I have ever flown in. |
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 The above charts are not black and white. It is better to look at the 100% power curves than the 110% because the 110% power cannot be maintained for very long periods. Even then the charts do not take into account that in the Dora it is impossible to run with rads closed due to the overheat. Also the graphs represent how the aircraft perform at 100% fuel. Since the P51D carries a lot more fuel that a 190D9 it looks worse only in IL2 compare. In IL2 under normal circumstances of around 50% fuel the P51D and 109D9 are very evenly matched in turn and climb. In my experience the P51D will usually outrun the 190D9 as it has a better overheat model. The P51D will happily run at 100% with closed rads for much longer than the 109D9 so as can be seen from the chart the P51D will outrun the 190D9 over most of the altitude range. I frequently caught Doras in a prolonged chase while flying a P51D because they simply had to back off sooner than me. Likewise when I got chased in a 190D9 by a P51D I knew I would eventually be caught because I could not keep the engine cool as long. Also anyone who claims outright superiority for the 109D9 over a P51D is wrong... period! The two aircraft in IL2 are very evenly matched and only pilot skill seperates the outcome. |
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Sure as Hell. Can't beat them charts. Now...Let's do WW2 Flight Sims in the players ability to simulate R.L. situations? The only real plane I have ever flown in. |
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It is and your wrong. S! VMF-214 The Original BlackSheep of the IL2 series is currently recruiting mature and dedicated pilots. Please visit us at http://vmf214blacksheep.com/ |
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This would be my experience as well. Good pilots of both types seem to end up in stalemate positions more often then not when engaging in a even fight (which is unusual as usually there is advantage somewhere). At that point its more a battle of attrition. The only place where I have to give the Dora outright advantage is in the guns. The twin MG151/20s, positioned as they are, make the perfect weapon against enemy fighters. Not strictly in firepower but in placement and ease of aim. Of course the gunsight knocks that down a bit. So its kind of a catch 22 
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Really? I knew about SC ability to limit overall number of a particular plane type (and loadouts) - and when this number is exhausted, type is no longer available. But I never heard about FBD ability to limit spawn points. So, is it possible to limit spawnpoints on particular airbase really low, to like 1 or 2? 2 Me262s in the air at max at any time on a late 44 server with 20 vs 20 players would be nice IMO. "In short, the Spitfire MkIX was the best fighting machine of its day. Its great tactical advantage was that, apart from its longer nose and more numerous exhaust stacks, it looked exactly like the inferior Spitfire MkV, and in the air the Germans would not know the difference - until we hit them." ~ Wg Cdr J E 'Johnnie' Johnson |
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They already use this on many severs, look at UK1 and UK2 on some maps they have restrictions that only two pilots can fly Me262 at the same time
Otto may have been a weirdo, but he was a dam good fighterpilot.  aka HOOTCHIE MAMA online |
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Uh, I really need to get back online soon.  "In short, the Spitfire MkIX was the best fighting machine of its day. Its great tactical advantage was that, apart from its longer nose and more numerous exhaust stacks, it looked exactly like the inferior Spitfire MkV, and in the air the Germans would not know the difference - until we hit them." ~ Wg Cdr J E 'Johnnie' Johnson |
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Hmm, the P-51D was introduced to operations in June 1944 (or May IIRC), the Dora-9 in September 1944. That`s what, 3-4 months difference in timeframe...?
Doh... this was discussed many many times, it was established a couple of times that your perception of how it was is quite simply wrong, but your opionion did not change at all.. I guess there`s not much point to argue with emotionnally-fueled opinion.  Kurfürst - Your resource site on Bf 109 performance! - Click on the picture to enter the site! 'Taktik ohne Technik ist hilflos. Technik ohne Taktik ist ziellos.' |
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