quote:

Originally posted by Blutarski2004:

quote:

Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Seems like an experimental installation for the Me 262 which was eventually not adapted.

I wonder what it has to do with droptanks for the Emil?

..... Simple. The tank is described as an "unknown" LW plywood drop tank. The Japanese gentleman ventured a "possible answer", which means he's not sure. You use the phrase "seems like", so you're not sure either. I don't see the problem you are implying.

Oh I see, a guy makes a photo with something that looks exactly like the experimental plywood droptank for the Me 262, which fact constitutes proof that it`s actually plywood droptank for the 109E and it was used too in 1940.

Again, what does it have to do with the Emil..? Where`s the connection?

The trouble with that tank, it`s far too big to fit under the Bf 109. It`s at least 2.5 meter long judging by the picture, and the actual droptank used on the 109s was 2177mm long, and even that left absolutely minimal ground clearance (for same reason, 500kg bombs were not used until the 109K and it`s tall tailwheel)

quote:

Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
Plywood aside.

Does anyone have good sources on 109 drop tank use during BOB?
I would genuinly be interested.

Bf 109E-7s would be capable doing so, they were equipped with the rack and piping neccesary to carry the droptank. E-7s were introduced to service and combat in 26 August 1940. It`s somewhat unclear wheter E-7s had DB 601Aa or the more powerful DB 601N engines, or a mix of these two engines.

According to Rechlin`s 109E range tables, at 5km altitude using a the 300 liter single droptank extended range and endurance to 920km and 1h 50min at 500/520km/h, 1165 km and 2h 50min at 410/430 km/h, and 1325 km abd 3h 50min at 330/350 km/h cruise speed (droptank on/off).

quote:

Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Oh I see, a guy makes a photo with something that looks exactly like the experimental plywood droptank for the Me 262, which fact constitutes proof that it`s actually plywood droptank for the 109E and it was used too in 1940.

..... I don't know what type of tank it is, or for what a/c. All I know is that is a LW drop-tank of plywood. I personally don't think that it looks "exactly" like the experimental 262 tank. Neither did the Japanese gentleman, and neither did you in your previous post.

As for relative sizes, go here -

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cebud...%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN

to see the size of a 108-gal US drop-tank, which was about 1/3 greater capacity than the 75 gal (300-ltr) tank size under discussion. Reduce the height by 1/4 and it is still well over the height of the ground-crewman.

In any case, I am quite certain that the picture you posted is not a Bf 109 droptank. It wouldn`t fit under the fuselage, and have some clearance, too. Even the standard 300 liter droptank had very little ground clearance.

What I can say for certain that all Bf 109 primary reference material and all pictures I have seen refer to the 300 liter aluminium droptank which`s shape we all know well, and there`s absolutely no picture or reference to plywood wooden droptanks I know of, or for that matter, anybody here.

It`s a bit like believing in a tooth fairy, believing in something nobody had ever seen. Rather irrational.

The tooth fairy doesn't produce ACTUAL luftwaffe plywood droptanks and put them under kids pillows now does it..

to go along with this plywood droptank refrence in the book it also show a very detailed cutaway drawing of a 109 e/4 and a drawing of this exact type of drop tank is show saying it is a "early type wooden droptank"

The artist apparently had pictures of the actual artifact he was drawing the tank from!

Subject was originally the alleged existance '109E plywood droptanks', not 'Luftwaffe plywood droptanks', I believe.

Now, the tooth fairy certainly didn`t put any 109E plywood droptank under the pillow, now did she?
Until she does, I doubt, and with a good reason, that she even exists.

The only photograhpic evidence of 109E plywood droptanks so far :

Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Subject was originally the alleged existance '109E plywood droptanks', not 'Luftwaffe plywood droptanks', I believe.

Now, the tooth fairy certainly didn`t put any 109E plywood droptank under the pillow, now did she?
Until she does, I doubt, and with a good reason, that she even exists.

The only photograhpic evidence of 109E plywood droptanks so far :





I haven't seen any OTHER refrences to wooden plywood drop tanks of the luftwaffe except the Me-262 test. I highly doubt this drop tanks is from that test being it was so limited.

Do you have any other refrences to other planes used by the luftwaffe that were equiped with plywood drop tanks?

So it`s a 109E droptank now.

May I ask, how did you arrive at that conclusion that it is for an Emil..?
How did it suddenly become a 109 droptank, used in mid-1940 nonetheless ?

Or is it just a picture taken somewhere with a guy standing beside a big brown thing?

quote:

Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
So it`s a 109E droptank now.

May I ask, how did you arrive at that conclusion that it is for an Emil..?
How did it suddenly become a 109 droptank, used in mid-1940 nonetheless ?

Or is it just a picture taken somewhere with a guy standing beside a big brown thing?

I have seen it refrenced in three sources now the one main one being "The Battle of Britain" by richard townsend bickers who apparently was quite a ww2 aviation author. There is also a drawing of it that looks just like the photo of this "brown thing"

I am not making this up. Apparently some people at one time had actual real info on this. Because it was a failed project it appears it was forgotten after that by all but a very few people. Not an uncommon thing to happen btw..

Of all the BoB 109 photos, and even profiles, I have seen, I have not found one with a drop tank. Lots with bombs, though.

This whole thing is highly plausable given the fact there is a picture of an actual luftwaffe plywood drop tank.

Here is some other thing you would never believe is true either a 109 "food bomb" !

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/food-drop.html

Have you seen any of these apparently they used quite a few and they were rsther large containers to sling under a 109!


I also KNOW for a fact from a direct source me-109's were used frequently to carry the pilot and three to six people in an emergency from harms way! True story!

Come on Time-team we can do better than this.
Let's see what we've got.

1) Such things as German plywood drop tanks do appear to have existed. We even might have a photo of one but nothing linking it to a BOB era 109.
2) The E7 could carry a drop tank.

However so far I've seen nothing here or else where to state that they did during BOB, plywood, aluminium or made from recycled ladies underwear.

quote:

Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
In any case, I am quite certain that the picture you posted is not a Bf 109 droptank. It wouldn`t fit under the fuselage, and have some clearance, too. Even the standard 300 liter droptank had very little ground clearance.

What I can say for certain that all Bf 109 primary reference material and all pictures I have seen refer to the 300 liter aluminium droptank which`s shape we all know well, and there`s absolutely no picture or reference to plywood wooden droptanks I know of, or for that matter, anybody here.

It`s a bit like believing in a tooth fairy, believing in something nobody had ever seen. Rather irrational.

..... I suggest that your logic here is faulty. Absence of evidence dos not constitute proof.

No one has stated categorically that the droptanks in these photographs WERE for a ME109. The photos simply confirm the fact that wooden LW drop-tanks existed.

Since the specific employment of these wooden tanks remains unknown at the moment, the possibility logically exists that they MAY or MAY NOT have been used on ME109s.

Your argument that the wooden tanks pictured would not fit beneath a 109 is not supportable without knowledge of the exact shape and dimensions of the tank(s) in question - something that cannot be obtained from these photos.

As to Stalkervision's reference of a diagram purporting to show an "early type wooden droptank" fitted beneath a 109E4, unless you are prepared to argue that the authors generated it wholly from their imaginations, you must admit that it has some respectable merit as evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... I suggest that your logic here is faulty. Absence of evidence dos not constitute proof.

Yes, I am sure one can go on with some arguements, counter arguements and the partisan attitude - but these are essentially rhetorics without substance.

I don`t see the need to. If people are claiming that plywood droptanks were used by early 109s in 1940, they should support the statement with evidence. If they can`t, they can stick with their beliefs if they want.

The complete lack of any evidence suggest that it`s an old fairy tale stemming from certain very old, historical, and not technical books on the BoB.

Unless, of course, you`re prepeared to accept and believe the existance of the tooth fairy - after all, there`s no evidence that she doesn`t exist, yes?

quote:

No one has stated categorically that the droptanks in these photographs WERE for a ME109.

Stalkervision did.

quote:

The photos simply confirm the fact that wooden LW drop-tanks existed.

... then I ask for the 3rd time, what relevance this claim has to the subject

'Did the Me-109e leaky plywood droptank ever exist?'?

Or is it a red herring? A strawman arguement?

quote:

Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
Since the specific employment of these wooden tanks remains unknown at the moment, the possibility logically exists that they MAY or MAY NOT have been used on ME109s.

... let`s discuss then 'Did 109Es flew with purple milka cows attached to fuselage flew in BoB?'

I can certainly show you pictures of purple milka cows. They may or may not have been used on Me 109s then.

quote:

Your argument that the wooden tanks pictured would not fit beneath a 109 is not supportable without knowledge of the exact shape and dimensions of the tank(s) in question - something that cannot be obtained from these photos.

Like I said, there`s no shortage of arguements, and this can be continued indefinietely .

Unfortunately, it does not make up for lack any actual evidence for the existance of plywood droptanks used on 109s in 1940.

quote:

As to Stalkervision's reference of a diagram purporting to show an "early type wooden droptank" fitted beneath a 109E4, unless you are prepared to argue that the authors generated it wholly from their imaginations, you must admit that it has some respectable merit as evidence.

I am quite prepeared to argue that the authors generated it wholly from their imaginations. After all, it`s just a drawing, that claims to depict a droptank no primary source seem to show, on a 109E-4 nonetheless, a variant that had absolutely no way of using a droptank, having neither the fitting nor the plumbing.

In contrast, the E-7`s aircraft manual clearly shows the standard, well known metal droptank of the same design as that of the metal droptank for the Ju 87R that existed earlier.

It`s pretty easy to decide between documented evidence and basically nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
However so far I've seen nothing here or else where to state that they did during BOB, plywood, aluminium or made from recycled ladies underwear.

Nothing..?



It looks like a factory fresh Bf 109E-7, carrying the standard aluminium 300 liter droptank of the Ju 87, the same that is depicted in the Bf 109E-7 manual. And the manual`s photographs (and thus the existance of the 300 liter droptank) obviously preceed the operational debut of the E-7.

It`s pretty clear cut.

Sure Kapt K, a photo taken at a factory for a manual. Now where are the photos of 109s with drop tanks during BoB.

Sorry maybe I misunderstood, I thought the photo was from 1941. I'm curious if they were used during the Battle of Britian, by which I mean the summer and autumn of 1940. I know some use a different definition for the BOB but that's what I meant by BOB era.

according to Jochen Priens "History of JG53, Vol.1" at least JG53 received its first Bf109E-7s in October 1940.
And that the JG53 used 300liter Droptanks first in November 1940 in combat action.

there is even a picture of a Bf109E-1 (at least with no wingcanons) with a droptank in the book - dated at 9.November 1940 , because the pilot in front shows his fresh IronCross , and the date when he received this is known.
unfortantly the picture shows the plane direct front , so you cant indentify the tanks shape.


even if November 1940 fits perfect in the Italian force's (that will be simulated in SoW:BoB) combat time , i dont expect a droptank as 109 option !
i just expect the -/B option , to simulate the fighterbomberraids.

quote:

Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
Sorry maybe I misunderstood, I thought the photo was from 1941.

I don`t know the date it is from, unfortunately the book from which I scanned it doesn`t say so. Given the factory letters still present, it`s most likely a new aircraft.

quote:

I'm curious if they were used during the Battle of Britian, by which I mean the summer and autumn of 1940. I know some use a different definition for the BOB but that's what I meant by BOB era.

It`s difficult to say for 100% certainity what we know the E-7 was capable of carrying the 300 liter droptanks (this quality of it being the reason it`s no longer called E-4).

We know the metal droptanks were there from the start (as the manual already has them as illustration, and those illustrations were made before plane saw service), plus we also know that were originally made for the the Ju 87 (most likely the long range 87R) earlier (those took part in the Norwegian campaign already). Given the tank was in production for some time, most likely they were available too.

We know they had the E-7 in service on 26 August 1940, and in combat 31 August 1940; we know that on 31 August they were first in combat (and suffered the first loss, there were just 32 E-7s in service, albeit this is just a few days after their introduction, and for some reason does not include JG 77.

We know losses occured from a Stab unit and from II/JG 2, so these units definietely had them.

We know the quarterly production summeries show between July and October 1940 that 186 E-7s were produced.
Many older ones that were damaged were probably retrofitted at the factory, but we can only guesswork how many. We know that 22 E-7s were lost and 8 damaged in the said period.

Those are the facts we know so far, and from which you can arrive at your conclusions.

My conclusion is there were indeed droptank carrying Bf 109Es in the BoB in September and October, which had sufficient range and endurance, but not in the numbers to make a difference. Given that no evidence emerged so far for plywood droptanks, I don`t think those existed or were used. There was a tried and tested Ju 87 droptank made out of aluminium available to be used, and that`s what the manual shows, after all.

Thanks that's what I was asking about.
The lack of endurance is often cited as a major reason the LW failed to achieve it's objectives during BOB, drop tanks seem an obvious solution.
Had they been available in sufficint numbers and/or sufficent 109s been of a sort that could carry them it would have been significant.

quote:

Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

even if November 1940 fits perfect in the Italian force's (that will be simulated in SoW:BoB) combat time , i dont expect a droptank as 109 option !
i just expect the -/B option , to simulate the fighterbomberraids.

Disagree, E-7s were available from end of August for other units, besides, the very reason for introducing the E-7 into service was that it could carry an already existing droptank (that was around long before the E-7 appeared).

Out of the 546 new Bf 109s the German aviation industry delivered between July and October 1940, 186 or about 34% were E-7s, no doubt the ratio is even higher for August, September and October. Coincidentally, that`s about the same ratio as Spitfires : Hurricanes.. Having no E-7 with droptank for BoB is like saying having no Spitfires Mk IIs.

Though personally, if I`d have to choose between, I`d rather like to have an E-1 and E-4 combo for maximum fun and maximum historical representation (these two being the most numerous of all)!