quote:

Originally posted by Nemecyst:
pointless thread is pointless.

it's just an excuse for the fans of the old R6 fans to get nostalgic.

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quote:

Originally posted by Nemecyst:
pointless thread is pointless.

it's just an excuse for the fans of the old R6 fans to get nostalgic.

quote:

Originally posted by DreamMarine:
You can read in this thread about t hunt spawning how much the game concept is flawed now. This is not the only proof, but one of my favorites since the in-game spawning and rushing of the tangos against you are my biggest problems with Vegas.

The whole discussion about the R6 game concept is pretty much chaotic and distorted by now, since the game concept has collapsed with some of the later game descisions. One bad gameplay descision has led to another one. It's like a runway street.

Examples:

1) UBI descided to introduce respawning in MP, because people got frustrated when they died soon in MP matches and had to wait a lot. This frustration was particularly high for beginners or casual players.

But this was the first step towards loosing the taste of tactics, since MP was now only about shooting around, getting killed and being thrown into the action again by respawn. Oh, and of course: Spawn camping. You might discuss if spawn camping is about tactics or not. It might actually be tactical, but it's not that kind of tactics you would look for in a tactical CQC shooter like the original games.

As a result, UBI had to introduce random spawns now which makes the MP games even more untactical (in a CQC sense), since now enemies can spawn everywhere - even in your back which you have just cleared.


You could have solved this "frustration problem" in another way:

My favorite is still to introduce a system where you protect people of less skill from veteran MP players which used to slaugther the beginners. Set up servers for different "ranks". Different MP games have a limit for maximal ranks. So beginners can play against each other until they rise in rank and skills and are ready to compete against more dangerous MP gamers.

I don't know any sports game where players with entirely different skills compete against each other. It wouldn't be any fun either. Imagine a tennis tournament where you as a beginner have to play against tennis profs in the first rounds. You would end in the first round every time again and have to wait for the next tournament. That would frustrate every beginner in tennis, and he wouldn't gain practise, too, since he always plays just one match.

You get my idea?


2) UBI has introduced heavy scripting, trip wires, linear gameplay, health regeneration and the sudden appearance of a bulk of tangos in story mode. That led to some consequences, too:

Since you can go to cover to regenerate your health after some seconds, they had to increase the numbers and abilities of the tangos. While unpredictability of the situations and tangos behaviour was a key concept in the old R6 games, now you have to retry a section of the SP campaign several times until you know when and where the tangos spawn. It's actually a trial-and-error process until you figure out how you have to deal with this section. But you won't prove your tactical CQC skills very much, but you will learn to deal with the scripts. The procedure you developed in one section usually won't work in the next one.


Again, all those gameplay decisions were steps in the wrong direction.

YES, the older R6 games COULD get frustrating from time to time. But you could learn to stay in control of different typical CQC situations. Everything you learned was applicable in later missions and partly in MP gameplay:

- How do I probably clear different layouts of buildings?

- How do I approach the stronghold without getting noticed?

- How do I react if they still notice me to soon and alert their buddys?

- How do I approach an open place from different directions?

- How do I deploy properly a sniper for support and intelligence and where are good places to place them?

For all those decisions you had usually enough time to think them through. If you made an error, you could start the mission again with new random tango positions and new tactical plans. You really had the feeling that you learned something in every mission what you could use for later missions.

All this is gone. Now you get conditioned like pavlov rats to try a section of SP again and again until you manage the artificial scripted setting by figuring out when and where the tangos will spawn.


3) But my favorite example is still the tango hunt which is entirely unattracting for me by now.

Tangos spawn in groups and rush for you, even if they haven't seen or heard you. While it should be YOU who hunts the tangos, it's acutally the other way around: THEY HUNT YOU!

It's funny (or sad) how some people use the fact that the tangos are rushing towards you as an arguement for in-game spawning. They say: "Look, it just won't work if all tangos spawn in the beginning, since then all 30 or more tangos would come after you." Ridiculous!!! We have to get rid of BOTH of these flaws: In-game spawning AND unrealistic rushing towards you.

Ok, the behaviour of the tangos in the old games wasn't perfect, either. They were a little bit passive. On the other hand they were unrealistic fast and deadly sometimes.

The key to all those tango hunt problems (those of the original games and of Vegas) is just as much realism and plausibility as possible. Introduce plausible human reactions including proper reactions times. Let some of them guard some areas, while others go on patrol. Some might even run away or surrender. Introduce a believable system when and how tangos would notice your presence.


Ok, I will stop here. The post is already long enough. But I hope you got my point!

quote:

Originally posted by The_Shivans:

quote:

Originally posted by Nemecyst:
pointless thread is pointless.

it's just an excuse for the fans of the old R6 fans to get nostalgic.

While I can't help feeling that you're only trolling, you're probably right, it is pointless since Ubi couldn't give two ****s what the fans of the original Rainbox Six think.

quote:

Originally posted by DreamMarine:

quote:

Originally posted by The_Shivans:

quote:

Originally posted by Nemecyst:
pointless thread is pointless.

it's just an excuse for the fans of the old R6 fans to get nostalgic.

While I can't help feeling that you're only trolling, you're probably right, it is pointless since Ubi couldn't give two ****s what the fans of the original Rainbox Six think.

I agree in both points:

1) Nemecyst is trolling. To such posts without one single serious argument I won't reply with any argument neither.

2) Yes, UBI will ignore the obvious ...


@all:

BTW, I have read somewhere some time ago, that AI ist the poor cousin of most game developments. It's usually developed as an afterthougt at the end of the development.

Most effort goes into shiny features like graphics or rank systems which shall bind the gamers to the game. Though I agree, of course, that graphics, motion capturing and so on ARE important features of a game, they are not part of the heart of it: A good game concept.

Unless it is not proven or well reasoned why the basic concept of the older R6 games won't sell as well as Vegas (if well done), loyal R6 fans like me probably won't stop arguing in this forum. You could combine very well some nice features of Vegas (motion capturing, rank systems, ingame commands) with the basic game concept of the older R6 classics: Real world tactics, open non-linear maps, less or non (at least not obvious) scripting, no health regeneration, focus on single missions in bounded locations (hostage rescue, intelligence, tango hunt), no respawn in MP, pregame spawning of all tangos with plausible tango behavior, varying locations and weather conditions and maybe multiple teams and the option for pre-game planning.

quote:

Originally posted by DexLuther:
That's why they take a used game, spruce it up a little, don't fix the mistakes, and sells it off as new.

quote:

Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
What is really funny, John Sonedecker was recently asked about Philippe Therien's recent commets in the Grupo97 interview and Valve, in a recent Games Industry interview has said that the team tac-sim market has a big hole in it and that they are going to try and fill it. Now that is 2 studios plugging a hole that Ubi left wide open.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Hanky2005:
I like this poll