Great ideas AntiPersonnel! And great work in the presentation of those ideas!

quote:

Originally posted by DOUBLESHOCK:
Good stuff. The second cover system you showed is how it should have been in Vegas 1, I don't know what they were thinking to allow the player to see past cover without exposing himself...

The answer...

quote:

Originally posted by DOUBLESHOCK:
The game would still keep the pointless 3rd person view, but it would satisfy the old R6 fans for the most part. I don't think Ubisoft gives a hoot to be honest, they have completely ditched everything that made R6 what it was. They have dumbed down every Tom Clancy game to appeal to run and gun fans.

You take the words out of my mouth...

well, the idea here is to try and find a suitable medium ground that most players old and new can agree on.


given the way vegas is currently going, i agree that the 2nd system is probably easier to implement in a future title (even though it is much more complicated) because fans of vegas have already gotten used to the idea of there being 3pv, and the whole "sticking to a wall" dynamic.

i cant say it will completely appease old fans, and probably not much at all for the die-hards or hardcore purists of the original rainbows, but this IMO would at the very least be a step into the right direction.

even though it still allows 3rd person, i feel that the system is fundamentally based on real world tactics (from what i gather in researching both online and video reference) to a certain degree. a believable one, i think.

and also since the axis of the camera in 3pv is always in line with the same axis as the character's head on screen, it is easilly possible to option a more realistic "1st person only" version of this cover system as a server option, without a major mechanical overhaul of the entire system. aka, "hardcore mode" friendly.


and for the record, i am primarily opting these for use in MP, but they could just as easily be implemented in the SP unmodified.

i was also thinking while i was playing COD4, how the left trigger brings the weapon up to sight... since on the console controller, this is an analog button (left trigger) that it should bring the gun up in relation to the amount of trigger pull, so you can walk around corners with the trigger pulled half way, and the gun nearly at eye level so that you can sight in very quickly when you are ready to engage.

Not gonna happen. Sorry.

The first way to improve the 3rd person cover mode is to take the 3rd out of it.

Just for reference, when cornering you should be facing the wall even more. Almost dead on if your target is straight ahead along the axis of the wall running away from you. Your angle on the wall is determined by target location.

Then there are two methods of engagement. One is less accurate and that is a lean out. The second method involves stepping out as the weapon comes up to engagement posture and firing. You expose more of your body but it is a more accurate method. Either way you want to minimize the body's rotation so the weapon is only pivoting up and not also rotating or swinging to the left as you lean or step out to the right. It all depends on the angle from the corner to your target. You want to have your shoulders squared to him as much as possible so the weapon is properly aligned before you move to engagement posture.

One more note devs - high/low cornering. It is used and it is lethal firepower when used properly.

This a awesome thread and your idea is great and its how it is really done in the CT and SWAT. Its is too bad that it wont be placed in the game. I hope the Devs are reading and listing to us. I also hope that they put this in their next tactical game. I want realistic game play. I want to feel like I am actually apart of the team/squad.

AntiP:

That was the best presentation of ANY idea I've ever read in this forum. Because of the time, effort, and practical research it took to illustrate your point, I can tell that you are a "true" fan of the series...hell, of the idea of a true tactical shooter.

If Ubi doesn't see this as pure genius, I hope other companies pick up on it...damn, it'd be great if some small indi vid game company made a shooter game for fans like us. Then, after it becomes a cult classic (like RB6), Ubi can purchase the rights and *******ize it. Ahh the cycle of life....don't you love it?

quote:

Originally posted by CIASOG:
Then, after it becomes a cult classic (like RB6), Ubi can purchase the rights and *******ize it.

R6 was hardly a cult classic - it won more than one game of the year award and the franchise sold millions of copies.

Perfect idea, brilliantly explained. Maybe make it so that handedness affects the cornering ability. I know from airsofting that as a right handed guy, cornering to the right is far easier than to the left. Then you could have handedness as a custom option for your character too. This would affect longer weapons more than shorter ones (pistols) of course.

You could fix the problem of not knowing when you are leaning by introducing a slight tilt to the camera. This would add a feeling of leaning even if you don't actually tilt in real life.

3rd person = no
leaning = yes

action figures!

this thread is insane lol.

good job dude. just awesome.

(for the record, i like the cover system as it is long live the unrealistic cover!).

Ya, seriously, nice post. I totally agreed with all of your suggestions. At this point, it'd be too late for Ubisoft to scratch their cover system (which I hate). Honestly, I think the third person cover system pulls players out of the game. They should keep all 1st person all the time. Rainbow Six is all about realism, and I think the devs have lost that a little bit. I grew up playing Rainbow Six all my life. From R6 on the PSone, to Rouge Spear, to R63 for the xbox. Rainbow Six really needs to get back to its roots. None of this arcade shooter bull**** (Lockdown). Maybe the devs should go back and play R63 or Raven Shield. I still love the Vegas games, I just don't think they feel like Rainbow Six. I would highly suggest anyone who hasn't played the old R6 games (the ones with the sweet tactical code names for the title (Rouge Spear, Athena Shield, Covert Ops, ect.) to do so. It'll give you a new outlook on the series.

EDIT: I recently went back and played Rainbow Six: Raven Shield, and it was still insanely fun, if you can get past the dated graphics. If a game is still fun after that a few years, that really says alot.

Wow! I'd have to agree, this is the best presented and thought out idea I have EVER seen on these forums. Ubi would be crazy not to use that system, and if they are crazy, I hope some other game company picks it up. It would be perfection of the next-gen cover system. Think about the sales!

Ubi, don't pass this up.

quote:

Originally posted by AntiPersonnel:
[The leaning and peeking idea]

Would give light machine guns' suppressive fire a purpose as well..

again -

Wow, very well made post. Can I ask what kind of camera you're using??

I'd have to totally agree. With the accuracy of Tom Clancy novels and attention to detail, I'm surprised the name "Tom Clancy" is associated with games with this type of cover system. He's obviously not a gamer.

(Bare with me, I'd prefer to think of myself as a Hardcore Realist, as opposed to Hardcore Gamer, games are different from life)

I'd say both ideas are great, a combination of both would be amazing. Firstly we define buttons. Left Stick click = Walk/Run Toggle, LT = Aim, RT = Fire, Down D-pad = Duck/NoDuck. (This is to deter, duck straffers, similiar to bunny hoppers)

Here is what I'm thinking. Approach corner in "walk" stance, due to proximity to wall, you can lean back on it and peek with "Aim". Then step away after assesing the situtaion, still in "walk" stance you "Aim" and lean to engage targets. Or you can just lean all corners, without peeking. Obviously peeking slows the game down, however, peeking can allow for "blind firing". Not that you should be able to see, but you can place your gun out there(RT) and distract, or surpress. Also, "walk" stance would automatically have you in a weapon shouldered position. Unclick walk and you run, obviously "Aim" is penalized in "Run" stance.

i'm using a canon 350D (rebel XT)

also, clancy may not really be a gamer, but back when he founded RSE who went on to make R6, Rogue Spear and Original Ghost Recon, i think he had the right idea as RSE made those games based on the realism he portrayed in his novels.

but ever since he sold his soul to Ubi, the realism faded away with each game along with his involvement with them.

Someone pointed out this post to me and thanks to him he did.

First off: Great thread AnitPersonnel. I'm amased of your work!

But I have just one big remark. Maybe it is because you are a console player you want automated functions, but I'm a PC gamer so I don't like that part. I feel there still should be a sort of difficulty (challenge) in a game so a player should learn to use the functions in a fluid way. Those functions should be easy to control off course, but still, I believe the player should do it himself.

So here is my stand on it.

I love the leaning system like you say. But I also believe that in Raven Shield this almost worked like you described it. It's just that you want it automated because real counterterrorist teams have it as second nature. But those guy's trained hard for it to have it as second nature. So to train yourself pushing a button is rather easy compared to their training.

Then automating it can be very hard. You posted images with red squares where the auto leaning would come into effect. But what if I'm in a hallway and I don't want to lean? How does the game react then? It's a very difficult job I think to make it right. A button will of course fix this issue.

So my thought to have the leaning system like you described wouldn't be to hard if you left out the automatic function. You take the Rainbow Six System where in you can't lean and move at the same time. So they need to change it that when you are leaned, you still can move to position yourself perfectly. This is also a challenge then for a player to become good in the game. He can train himself to move fluidly to a leaned position just like your action figure does.

About the walking with gun I love also. So when you walk with the gun a little lower but close to shooting position you should have a complete overview where you are looking but when you should shoot, the gun will raise automatic whithout real accuracy. So it's good enough for a real close battle (T comes just around corner right in front of you) but absolutely ineffective for a longer shot like at the end of a room. So to make an accurate shot, you first need to aim. Aiming will reduce then the overview because you're looking down the sight.

I love the thought of it all, and I believe it would improve the gameplay a lot. More realistic and still easy enough for newcomers. I'm sure you'll have the hang of it, even with the leaning button, after two evenings playing the game.

Now all this is my opinion as a PC gamer, I don't have any experience playing on a console, but the above is very easy to learn for a PC player. Playing with mouse and keyboard is more practical for these things.

PS: I didn't read everything in the thread because off lack of time. So if I repeated something or missed another, sry for that.

Great presentation.

I however am very fond of the current cover system. I know it's not real and very 'tactical,' but I just like it.

When I've looked at other games... I just miss it.

quote:

Originally posted by DISEMAN_x:
Great presentation.

I however am very fond of the current cover system. I know it's not real and very 'tactical,' but I just like it.

When I've looked at other games... I just miss it.

That's just the problem. It doesn't belong to a game that tries (or pretends) to be realistic. But I don't say it should be completely removed, what I'm saying is there should be a more realistic cover system as an option (in SP as well as MP).

quote:

Originally posted by DISEMAN_x:
Great presentation.

I however am very fond of the current cover system. I know it's not real and very 'tactical,' but I just like it.

When I've looked at other games... I just miss it.

If the current cover system were in, say, a Max Payne game, I'd totally get the game.

But if the cover system is going to be in Rainbow Six, a game that strives to be "the ultimate tactical shooter", then I'm not going to buy the game.

The cover system in Gears of War I like, because it doesn't give you a cheating full 360 degrees of view, but rather, only what your player can see (and a little more, to forgive). Then again, Gears of War is not your super-tactical shooter like Rainbow Six: Raven Shield was.

The best cover system for a tactical game (in my opinion) would be one that AntiPersonnel described in the OP post.