since my lean post was deleted i am going to try and explain it again.

this system incorporates both the Vegas 3rd Person cover AND a lean.

here, i propose a new system that still utilizes 3rd person view, but takes away most of the player advantage by restricting the viewpoint and angle of the camera.

IMO this is how "3rd person cover" should have been to begin with.



** THE FOLLOWING PHOTOS WILL DEMONSTRATE THE EXACT PERSPECTIVE AS IT APPEARS IN-GAME **



HOW IT WORKS


1. the game is played in 1st person as usual. the player approaches solid cover...
(again, sorry for the action figure demo, i dont have any other way of illustrating this in depth)





2. Player holds the COVER BUTTON (L trigger on 360) to "stick" to the wall. as long as the button is held the player will remain stuck (same as vegas 1).

as soon as player enters "cover mode" the camera pulls back into 3rd person.

however, instead of the "free view" that we have in Vegas 1 and 2, in this system the camera is FIXED BEHIND THE PLAYER. the camera will follow BEHIND the player until the APEX POINT of the cover (i.e. corner of the wall or box etc).

note: the crosshairs immediately disappear once cover mode is initiated and toggling the AIM (right analog stick in 360) will have NO EFFECT prior to reaching the APEX POINT of the cover.



The player is now at the APEX POINT of the cover, with the camera trailing BEHIND him. note how little of the other side is visible. this is to retain SOME shred of "realistic" believability and minimize xray vision. also note that the framing of the camera in this 3rd person viewpoint is much tighter on the player than in VEGAS, but still enough for fans of PEC to see how "cool he looks".

at this point, there is still no "pre-aiming" capability, but the player can choose to perform ONE OF TWO ACTIONS: PEEK OR LEAN



3. PEEKING - Once the player has reached the APEX POINT of the cover (you will know it because when you travel along the side of the cover towards the APEX, you will come to a stop and feel a slight "resistance" once you reach the apex, the same way you do in vegas), he can now perform the PEEK FUNCTION.

the PEEK is performed by using the right analog stick (AIMING) to lean your head out slightly. the amount of peek and the speed of the peek is directly analagous to the amount you press the stick to either side. Note, that you cannot pre-aim while peeking because your gun is DOWN. you cannot fire while peeking either (more on the LEAN in the next section). also note that you can only peek out to view what is directly in front of you.

in-game, once the right stick is initiated, the transition into peeking is a fluid motion that immediately ZOOMS IN on the player's head to closely resemble his natural field of view. the camera will then follow the characters head and ROTATE TO FORWARD VIEW in relation to the amount the players head moves out of cover.



(zooming in as the right stick begins its press)




(right stick is almost fully pressed outward, Depth of Field in effect, and camera almost fully rotated forward)




(right stick is now fully pressed outward, camera is fully rotated forward with clear view down field. with "depth of field" the target focus makes a FLUID yet QUICK rack-focus transition from player to subjects down-range)

NOTE that when your head is out at the full point of PEEKING, you are able to also view UP and DOWN as well by moving the right stick upwards or downwards in PEEK. however, the amount of movement the camera will tilt up or down is SIGNIFICANTLY less than the amount you can move it in vegas. imagine only an angle fluxuation of a "nod" up or down.



to end the PEEKING FUNCTION you let go of the right stick which brings you back to the APEX POINT and the camera SWINGS BACK BEHIND the player same as before:



Here we are back at the same APEX POINT. again, here you can perform one of two functions. either peeking again or LEANING.



4. LEANING FUNCTION - since you cannot fire your weapon during the peeking function, you can perform a PIEING LEAN.

The way the leaning works is once you are at the APEX POINT of the cover, you then use the LEFT STICK (movement) to lean out. in case you were wondering, if you hold the LEFT analog stick while in cover all the way to the very edge and keep holding it, you will come to a stop, then start to lean out (this detail works the exact same as Vegas).

however, different from the VEGAS "pop out of cover"... there is no "POP". the left analog stick is used to lean out ANALOGOUSLY to the amount of pressure applied to the left stick.

From the APEX POINT, when you initiate a LEAN, your character will use his inner most leg (in this case his left leg) by moving it a step backward stabilizing his shooting stance, raise his weapon up at chest level in the READY FIRE POSITION, then use his left "backed up" leg to "pivot forward", transfering the weight of his body onto the right leg (which now becomes the leg closer to the wall) as he leans outward. this leaned, PIEING STANCE is the same stance as i explained in the previous Auto Lean post.

much like the PEEKING, the camera will ROTATE FORWARD according to the amount of lean pressed.



note the crosshairs will start to fade in once the stick is moved outward. also note (IMPORTANT) the "pips" of the crosshairs fully extended, and your aim NEEDS TO REST each time you lean out. no more insta-accuracy by shooting from cover.




here we see the character is fully leaned out, while minimizing his exposed body profile.

also note that the same "rack-focusing" effect applies to the lean as it does in the peeking.

another note: in this pic you are not shooting from your gun sights until you click the right stick to AIM your weapon same as in VEGAS, and therefore you do not have a fully accurate shot as you would if you were scoped in.



(right stick has been clicked to aim from the gun's sights) it is no longer possible to "pre-click" your scope while in cover for insta-accurate scope sniping.

each time you lean in and out of cover. your aim resets, and your scope resets. so you need to re-aim once you lean back out. the crosshair will not be in the same place you left it (no more rapid-popping to adjust headshot aim). it will be in the same "general area". also you have to re-click the stick to scope in (you can only scope in AFTER you have leaned out). and also note, each time you re-aim and re-lean the pips of your crosshairs will need to rest to gain accuracy for each shot.



you ask "WHY DO WE NEED BOTH PEEK AND LEAN?" well, for one, peek replaces the XRAY vision of 3rd person cover.

since the camera is only viewing from behind the player at an angle, you can no longer see around the corner without peeking your head out.

the peeking function is also very fast. you can pop your head in and out very quickly to survey the area, although you cannot fire when doing this.

the lean is a much slower movement in and out of cover compared to the peek because of the fact that you have your weapon ready to fire, you are shifting the weight of your body to the side.



CONCLUSION

i think that this system will find Vegas fans able to adapt to a more realistic approach to the 3rd person cover system (although i would prefer a 1st-person only view)

and also since it is still using a 3rd person perspective, the system is nowhere near perfect, it has its flaws, and most likely will have glitches.

but i think AT LEAST this way, the xray vision and cheap aiming will be eliminated to a much more tolerable degree.

im also convinced the above "3rd person cover system" will work just as good entirely in 1st person as well, so a server toggle could also be an option.



EDIT: for those who requested to see the whole figure here it si:

This message has been edited. Last edited by: AntiPersonnel,

Very good explanation.
I agree, left trigger should be replaced with the aim button and work the way it does in COD4. You hold left trigger to aim down the sights, release the trigger to lower your weapon. Ever tried to look down the sights of a pistol in vegas 1? It doesn't work very well because you have to click the right stick again to lower it. If it was like COD4, and if the iron sights were made a little better, then it would be very easy and natural to aim down the sights.


I don't know about the game automatically leaning your character outwards like that. I think it would be very difficult for the game to recognize when you want to lean. Because it is in a first person perspective, you would have no way of knowing if the game recognized this or not, and you might be putting your whole body out in the open, rather than leaning out.
I don't like a lean button, players abuse that just like jumping constantly (bunny hopping) to avoid bullets, but I think it could work if done right.
I don't think the game should automatically bring your weapon up to your face when you are walking. I think there should be a toggle button that would enable it. Click the right stick and your character would bring his weapon up, and take small careful steps. When you strafe left or right with the left stick, your character would carefully lean in that direction. It wouldn't happen instantly, or players would abuse that, your character would slowly adjust his footing and cautiously lean outwards in that direction. It would feel natural because as you are pieing the corner by strafing outwards, your character would start to lean in that direction, so in that way, you wouldn't have to think about it. Click the right stick again and your character would lower his weapon and go back to taking normal steps. Think of it like a caution mode.

my reasoning for automatic actions such as bringing the weapon up while walking or leaning stance in cover is because these actions are automatic in real life.

not for people like you or me, but it is for people like the characters this game is supposed to portray, like the SAS, GSG9 or other CT operatives rainbow is made of.

for me, adding buttons is overcomplicating the system.

if anything i think button pressing should be removed.


for the game to recognize where to lean it is rather simple. in front of a corner or solid piece of cover, ther could be a "designated area" where leaning could take place.

and in 1st person, if you are stationary in front of this cover, you slowly press left or ight to look out the side of it, there is no questioning "am i leaning?" because the only way you would not be is if you were running, in which case leaning would be the last thing on your mind anyway.

heres a very simplistic diagram of "leaning detection"

any time you are standing or walking into areas that are shown red in this diagram your character is in the "auto-lean" zone. the character makes a transition into a shooting stance.

and as long as you stay in these red zones, your character retains his shooting stance. once you leave, the character returns to normal.


facing north:





facing south:





also, any time you are walking, "caution" should be a conscious thing. there is no reason in any shooting game to be walking slowly if you are not intending to be cautious to begin with. you shouldnt have to press a button for anything you should be doing in the first place.


i cant imagine any situation when i am standing behind cover where i would NOT want to lean when looking out, plus there is no situation i can think of i would want to be leaning when i am not in cover. therefore this should be automatic and not a user-defined "button press".

hm I see. I can kind of understand what you mean now. I played some paintball recently, and I found myself walking with my weapon up at the ready. I don't know much about how the elite soldiers operate, but when I was out there slowly checking out one of the buildings, holding my weapon up at the ready was the only way to approach that situation. So with that said, I think your ideas would work well. When you are moving slowly, your character would naturally bring his weapon up, and when you approached a corner while moving slowly your character would naturally lean outwards.
I could see that. When you are a certain distance to the corner, and are aiming at the edge of the corner, your character would begin to lean out. Turn away and he would straighten up, look at the edge of the corner and he would lean out again.

This is a good explanation but the only problem i have with the cover system is that if I shoot at someone and they have to take cover behind something they can still see what im doing just because of the third person camera.. They at this point should not be able to see over or around the cover and be completely unexposed. This allows me then (or my team) to move freely, which is what cover fire is all about.

quote:

When you are moving slowly, your character would naturally bring his weapon up

yes, slow movement in any shooting game should ALWAYS give you the advantage of accuracy when firing plus decreased time to aim weapon.

in vegas, they give you a magicaly increased "hip fire" accuracy wehn you walk (slower movement makes the reticule tighter) but it is not done correctly.

it should only give you that accuracy boost when walking because your weapon is held in a more steady firing position. in vegas you dont get any "quicker" aiming when walking, when in reality your gun sites should be close to your face making the transition to aim nearly instantaneous.

quote:

if I shoot at someone and they have to take cover behind something they can still see what im doing just because of the third person camera.. They at this point should not be able to see over or around the cover and be completely unexposed. This allows me then (or my team) to move freely, which is what cover fire is all about.

exactly the reason why i hate vegas 3rd person cover.

the leaning system i describe here would eliminate that problem since it is all kept in 1st person view

I agree with the aim down sights as the left trigger. Aiming in COD4 is so natural and fluid I can almost feel lifting the gun up as I pull the trigger and lowering it as I release the trigger.

I like it! Your explanation simplifies it too. I like the automatic position when you are within a certain proximity to the corner as well. One thing I was always taught is to essentially lead with your muzzle. Meaning the muzzle of your weapon becomes your pivot point. This is more of a template for movement than litterally pushing your body in wide circles around opjects. I don't think it would be too difficult to code something like you're describing. The problem w/ Vegas is, the coding is done and the model was already there. I wouldn't expect any changes this time around but it's a fine idea and explanation for future FPS games.

I've justified the 3rd person view to myself by comaring the actual view, to equipment that may be used by real ops. Be it mirrors, snake cameras or something else; it is possible to see around corners. Should they implement those tools and keep it first person? In SP where you are the stealth aggressor, it makes sense. In MP where you and your opposition both are aggressors, the burden of getting out equipment checking, stowing the equipment and firing is more unrealistic. Since the opp is looking for you too, anything that slows you down puts you at a disadvantage. My thought to correct the 3rd person view is to slow the movement from cover to target. If it's 25% it's current speed, it's more realistic. They present themselves as a target before being able to fire rounds.

There is an another cover that can be improved: when you are hidding behind a small element (box, part of a car etc..)
When you move out of the cover, on the top, it always at the same "height". Think that Ravenshield used the Fluid Gesture to Lean And crouch/ standing stances, so it's possible to adjust height cover when we're firing (near crouching behind a box, near standing behing a taller one)

It should be interesting to have coop system where one player is crouched to shoot, the other player is using the first one to stabilize his aiming (or using him like a cover if the first player is wearing a shield).

quote:

I've justified the 3rd person view to myself by comaring the actual view, to equipment that may be used by real ops. Be it mirrors, snake cameras or something else; it is possible to see around corners.

there have been people that have justified the 3rd person with this type of "what if" statement.

but you have to realize that even with such technology, you wouldnt be able to "pre-aim" the way you do in vegas, then pop out having your scope crosshair in the same exact place as you pre-aimed then execute a split second headshot like you can in vegas.

granted they did remove the "pre-aim" crosshair in MP, but people have been known to put a dot on their screen in place of it. then hide in 3rd person, pre aim, then pop out for a dead accurate shot.

the only current technology that comes close to this would be for the camera to be mounted on the gun itself like the one from GRAW. but even still you have to put your entire gun and hands out in the open for it to see anything. the enemy would have a chance to at least shoot the gun off your hand. there is a REASON they left the camera gun out of MP in GRAW.

the 3rd person vegas cover system is so flawed in so many ways it isnt even just about the xray vision of 3rd person perspective.

you also have no aiming penalty for popping out of cover. for instance, say you are in cover and popped out scanning the area for targets, then you see someone pop their head out and fire at you. then you pop out again, your crosshair is in the same exact place as you left it, and your aiming reticule is already "rested" and at 100% accuracy for each subsequent shot without ever resetting.

you can try the same thing by strafing left or right without using the cover system, but you get the accuracy penalty each time you move.

i think that is complete BS that you lose no aiming penalty by staying in cover despite the fact that you are swinging your body 180 degrees out to shoot (in real life this is MUCH more difficult and cumbersome to pull off than strafing to the side in shooting stance and should have a significantly larger aiming penalty).

there is no human being that has ever existed on this planet earth, regardless of any technology assist, that can pull off a dead accurate shot that quick WITHOUT having to reset his aim once he pops out of cover like that.

its not even remotely believable for a VIDEO GAME... maybe it would be believable if we are fighting aliens and wearing Spartan Armor, but this is supposed to be based somewhat on reality.

quote:

there is no human being that has ever existed on this planet earth, regardless of any technology assist, that can pull off a dead accurate shot that quick WITHOUT having to reset his aim once he pops out of cover like that.

its not even remotely believable for a VIDEO GAME... maybe it would be believable if we are fighting aliens and wearing Spartan Armor, but this is supposed to be based somewhat on reality.

I agree... I've been saying this for a long time but so far no dice. But I am reversed on what I dislike most, I think the "xray" is the biggest problem of the system cause its so much more frustrating that I still have no advantage after my enemy is forced to take cover if they can still see me....

[edit: for sake of clarity i moved this demonstration up to the first post]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: AntiPersonnel,

WOW those are very life-like Action figures and you also have a very clean carpet... I'm impressed!

I played RB6V 1 and I found the cover system a bit arcadeish but went along with it as it gave me enough advantage to take on the world, which frankly, is the ultimate goal on this game but, I have to be honest and the last two improvements of the cover system are just "ACE" and if implemented on this game while it be for launching date or a patch, plenty of people will go out and buy the game for PC or Console hardcore gamers (**).

(**) Clearly if the port to PC is optimized and the bugs/errors/issues/graphics & settings shortcomings are kept to a minimum.

This is an AWESOME thread indeed!!! I felt more inmerse in your post than back when I was playing the game just to waste a few hours of boredom!

This is a great thread. Great ideas here.

now thats the way to put across your opinion, very good explanation and a great idea, nice job anti personnel

I can't agree more with the system you have detailed. It looks like it would work much better than the other system. I like the removed pre-click of the scope, I lost count of how many of my friends were "dotters", but this system completely removes that. You have shown a large amount of thought and presented it in a clear and concise manner, well done.

PS: I like the action figures, what kind are they?

what's up with the back of that dude's bald head?

Other than that.. yes a very good point!

quote:

but, I have to be honest and the last two improvements of the cover system are just "ACE" and if implemented on this game while it be for launching date or a patch, plenty of people will go out and buy the game for PC or Console hardcore gamers

theres no way anything like this could be considered for Vegas 2, the game is most likely already set in stone. thats why i didnt put it in the "suggestions for vegas 2" thread. if anything i am just voicing my thoughts out loud, and if the devs think its good enough to try for a future rainbow so be it (if they even read any of this).


actually the "last two" cover system ingredients are part of the same cover system. peek + lean. when you enter cover, you either press the left stick out for a lean and shoot, or the right stick for a quick peek.

my first choice is still the very first post, the "automatic leaning" 1st person-only option since i think it is the most versatile, simplistic and most effective.

but if we are to consider all parties involved, it would seem the "improved 3rd person cover" might be a good medium ground.

i would be fine with either, at least the 3pv system i describe wouldnt have half as many "cheap shots" or xray vision going on.

one way i can realistically justify the use of 3rd person viewpoint in THIS particular application is that the human eyeball can scan areas, and track targets much faster and more precisely than any game controller, mouse or hand-operated tracking device.

so with that said, it pans the view back behind the character, giving a wider field of view than realistically capable and allowing the HUMAN player's eyeball to track and acquire targets, then translating it into hand-eye-coordination with physical aiming on the controller (does that make sense?).

but in order for that to even be remotely believable the players head in-game would have to be visible to the enemy.

in this regard, the current Vegas 3pv cover system fails in every way and is compltely non-believable and unjustified.



i also want to apologize to PC users, because i am primarily a console gamer, and i wrote the functions as they apply to the 360 game controller.

i dont know how it is on the PC keyboard layout, but since there is only 1 analog control device (mouse) the use of the different analog functions (i.e. left stick and right stick on console) will have to be activated using a toggle button.

one example. suppose shift key is the button you hold down to initiate cover mode. you mouse to the right to move the player to the right of the cover and into the apex. then by continuing to move the mouse to the right, the player leans out ready to shoot.

for peeking, instead of just moving the mouse to the right, you would have to hold CNTL or ALT simultaneously with the shift and move the mouse to the right for a peek instead of lean.

something like that. i havent played a game on PC for so long i dont really know what would be the most comfortable way to apply this.

of course there is always the option you could map all the buttons yourself to your own liking.

quote:

PS: I like the action figures, what kind are they?

they are all hand painted, customized figures made from parts i acquired overseas (hong kong and japan)... and REALLY expensive.

the figures themselves are characters from an IP i am currently working on very similar to a "Rainbow" type force, that one day somewhere in my dreams can become a video game franchise.

Good stuff. The second cover system you showed is how it should have been in Vegas 1, I don't know what they were thinking to allow the player to see past cover without exposing himself... maybe they wanted to give players a reason to use the cover system rather than just lean out and shoot like in previous games. I like your first idea best because I don't like being stuck to a wall, but the second example is probably the easiest to implement. The game would still keep the pointless 3rd person view, but it would satisfy the old R6 fans for the most part. I don't think Ubisoft gives a hoot to be honest, they have completely ditched everything that made R6 what it was. They have dumbed down every Tom Clancy game to appeal to run and gun fans.