Rainbow Six Vegas 2 Post Mortem
Ubisoft gives us its thoughts on co-op, review scores and the wrath of the community.
by Nate Ahearn

May 5, 2008 - The original Rainbow Six Vegas garnered praise from critics and community members alike when it launched back in 2006. Its effective blend of tactics and action offered a nice change of pace from the action-heavy stable of other Xbox 360 games. Push forward in the calendar nearly two years and the sequel to what some would say was the best in the Rainbow Six series was ready to drop onto retail shelves. While review scores were considerably lower for Vegas 2 the online community is currently alive and well.

We recently had the chance to chat with JP Cambiotti, Lead Multiplayer Designer, about his thoughts on the successes and failures in Rainbow Six Vegas 2.

IGN: In your opinion, has Vegas 2 met, fallen short of, or exceeded your expectations in terms of its reception in the community?

JP Cambiotti: We placed very high expectations on ourselves with Rainbow Six Vegas 2 and we treated the game as a true sequel in terms of committing the necessary resources, time and efforts to make it a quality experience.

Rainbow Six has always had a very passionate and vocal community. Early on we determined that RSV2 would be built by improving and adding to what players liked in the first Vegas game. I think a lot of fans are very pleased with the game we've delivered. That said, we're always in the process of gathering the community's feedback to see how we can improve the experience and cater to their needs even more.

IGN: We noticed that there was recently an update to the 360 version that provided several fixes and upgrades to the game. When can PS3 owners expect the same?

Cambiotti: We're working on an update for the PS3 and will provide more info as soon as possible.

IGN: Why do you think the critical reception for Vegas 2 didn't exceed what was said about Vegas 1?

Cambiotti: We think of the RS Vegas series as a complete package. The first RS Vegas received a higher score because it brought plenty of innovations and established a very solid foundation. It was the first next-gen RS title. That solid foundation is still in the sequel, but it's not taken into account since usually what is new is focused on. We're happy with our overall score being well over 80%, it just shows RSV2 is a quality game that is worthwhile playing.

IGN: Is there anything that's sitting on the cutting room floor that you really wish made it into Vegas 2?

Cambiotti: With any project, we always wish we had more time, but I feel we added the necessary game features that make this game stand on its own, from improving the AI to integrating the P.E.C. in single player to a seamless co-op transition.

That said, everyone on the team has a couple of ideas they would have loved to see in the game if we had more time. For me, it's Splitscreen Online and an adversarial game mode that caters exclusively to the Rainbow Six veterans.

IGN: We noticed that the music was identical to the first game. Why not change it up and offer a few new tracks while still keeping the same overall feel?

Cambiotti: Actually, over 75% of the music in RSV2 is completely new. The music was composed by the same artist and we wanted to maintain continuity with Vegas, so that might explain the similarity to the previous game.

The new music should be especially noticeable in Pic des Pyrenees, Estate and the Nevada Desert locations. In the game's menus, you'll find a tip of the hat to early Rainbow Six games. Since it was the 10th anniversary of Rainbow Six we decided to remake the original Rainbow Six theme music and play it in the menus.

IGN: One thing that our readers want to know is why they weren't able to carry their character over from the first Vegas into Vegas 2. Why wasn't that in the game?

Cambiotti: We initially wanted to let players import their character from Vegas 1, but there were some technical issues that prevented us from achieving this.

We did give previous Rainbow Six players veteran status in RSV2, which gave them a boost of XP and unlocked some gear right off the bat. The amount of time it takes to reach each rank is also significantly faster in RSV2.

IGN: Is the insane popularity of fast-paced shooters like COD4 going to force the next Rainbow Six in a new direction?

Cambiotti: Call of Duty is a lot of fun to play, and we will definitely look at other games going forward to see what worked and what didn't work so well for them. However, we don't want Rainbow Six to be like any other game on the market. The Rainbow Six franchise is very unique and has more depth than a fast-paced shooter. We will continue to be true to the tactical aspect, always thinking of new ways to make tactics interesting for everyone. This was well executed in the RS Vegas series, and we will continue to push realism, teamwork and intense action with future Rainbow Six titles.

IGN: Why is it that a game like Frontlines: Fuel of War with its massive environments can support 50 players with vehicles, but a game like Vegas 2 with a lot of interiors and more close-quarter battles only supports 16?

Cambiotti: Rainbow Six is all about close quarters battles, so putting 50 people in smaller maps would not be feasible or very fun. It is a game design choice to limit online multiplayer to 16 players, and a reason why we feel Rainbow Six is still one of the best online multiplayer experiences around. It is a direction we chose to differentiate ourselves and still remain true to the franchise and what it stands for. While large-scale battles are fun in their own right, our goal is to make sure Rainbow Six offers something different by having squad-sized intense firefights that require careful use of tactics in close-quarter environments. Having a smaller area, and no vehicles, requires the player to use every square foot of their environment to get the upper hand on the enemy.

IGN: Have you guys learned any lessons from venturing into the world of co-op gameplay? Anything that you wish you could change in Vegas 2?

Cambiotti: I don't think we would change anything on RSV2 because we successfully tied in all the modes together through the customization and rewards system. However, that doesn't mean we won't explore new options for future Rainbow Six games. We know co-op is very popular and we need to see how we can continue to set the bar even higher.

IGN: Some thought that the co-op story in Vegas 2 should have supported four players, at least for the times during the campaign where there were four team members. Why not allow that?

Cambiotti: Our intention with the co-op story mode was to offer the full story experience this time around, just as it would be if you were playing solo. One of the technical constraints we had to deal with was a maximum of 4 Rainbow characters, which meant we had to make a choice early in production. Either support 4 players without the AI or 2 players with the AI. Since the AI was so heavily embedded into the storyline we opted to go with 2 players and keep the AI present.

The advantage of going this direction was that we could seamlessly transition the story mode from solo to coop, meaning if you see a friend playing the story mode alone you can jump right into his match and play alongside him without him having to setup the game as a co-op match. However, the drawback was that compared to the first RSV, this mode no longer supports 4 players. Co-op Terrorist Hunt, on the other hand, continues to support 4 human players.

IGN: What's the word on downloadable content? What can we expect from the first round? Roughly when will we see it and will it be released simultaneously on PS3?

Cambiotti: Unfortunately, I can't confirm or deny any upcoming DLC at the moment

WOW....This guy is "Really" trying to justify a job he should NEVER have

Wow, BS answer after BS answer.

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JP Cambiotti: We placed very high expectations on ourselves with Rainbow Six Vegas 2 and we treated the game as a true sequel in terms of committing the necessary resources, time and efforts to make it a quality experience.

Rainbow Six has always had a very passionate and vocal community. Early on we determined that RSV2 would be built by improving and adding to what players liked in the first Vegas game. I think a lot of fans are very pleased with the game we've delivered. That said, we're always in the process of gathering the community's feedback to see how we can improve the experience and cater to their needs even more.

I guess that's why MULTIPLE glicthes that were found in the first game are found in the second. Because all necessary time and resources where given. Yeah right

It's also not the fans you're catering too. Most of the ACTUAL fans aren't very happy with either Vegas games.

quote:

it just shows RSV2 is a quality game that is worthwhile playing.

LMAO! Half finished products is "quality" to you people. Again, how can you call this a quality game when it's basically a carbon copy of the first one and riddled with bugs from last time that should have been fixed?

quote:

Call of Duty is a lot of fun to play, and we will definitely look at other games going forward to see what worked and what didn't work so well for them. However, we don't want Rainbow Six to be like any other game on the market. The Rainbow Six franchise is very unique and has more depth than a fast-paced shooter. We will continue to be true to the tactical aspect, always thinking of new ways to make tactics interesting for everyone. This was well executed in the RS Vegas series, and we will continue to push realism, teamwork and intense action with future Rainbow Six titles

Where the F*** is the realism in a shooter where the guns operate how people with no gun experience THINK the gun operates?

Where the f*** is the realism in a game with a cover system that no person with military training or common sense at all would ever mimic?

Where the f*** is the realism or tactics in a game where the focus is on building maps and the entire game in general around players that come from COD4 and Halo and do nothing but run around like idiots and hold down the trigger in the direction of anything that moves?

Where the f*** is the realism in a game that is built in a way that allows people (and even caters to them) to dance around when being shot at to avoid being hit?

Seriously, this dude is an f'in idiot.

quote:

Unfortunately, I can't confirm or deny any upcoming DLC at the moment

They should FIX the game first. And by fix I mean fix it as a Rainbow Six game, not Halo Six.

I think he explained what he thought of the outcome of a successful Vegas 2 very well, and how they want the direction to be.

I dont know WHY the HELL you people act as if this game was an atrocity to mankind. Is it like this on all forums? To completely TRASH a game and still play it? We all want improvements, but the way you DESPISE this game, why are you playing it?

If this game is the absolute bane of your existence, what are you doing here?

i'm not playing it anymore and i'm here because i like the forum

quote:

Originally posted by TheWarHam:
I think he explained what he thought of the outcome of a successful Vegas 2 very well, and how they want the direction to be.

I dont know WHY the HELL you people act as if this game was an atrocity to mankind. Is it like this on all forums? To completely TRASH a game and still play it? We all want improvements, but the way you DESPISE this game, why are you playing it?

I'm not. I'm waiting for my refund.

I bought a RAINBOW SIX game, but got Halo Six. There must have been a mix up somewhere, because the game he's describing isn't the one I got.

He talks about realism in a game where another Dev explained that the guns where balanced in a way so they operate the way people THINK they operate from watching Hollywood movies.

He talks about tactics in a game that was designed to cater to the Halo crowd, a crowd of people that do nothing BUT run and gun.

He talks about quality in a game riddled with bugs that people complained about in the first game.

He talks about catering to FANS, when MOST of the ACTUAL FANS of the series HATE the direction the series is taking.

I was scared to **** this game would turn into another COD or Halo, but with the people I play with, I never see a jackass running around. When we do, rarely, we tap R1 and hes dead.

As for Hollywood movies, usually I hear people complaining about the ridiculous recoil of the weapons in the games, and Hollywood movies usually have the opposite, so Im surprised at that of what you said.

There are a lot of problems, but the only real problem is side-strafe -- to me. That HAS been used sometimes, which is just retarded and unrealistic.


Yeah, I CAN see this game headed in a bad direction in X amount of years, it may it may not. It is HEADED that way, but Vegas 2, I just dont see it.

The game he is describing is not the one I am playing, not even close...

I lol'd.

quote:

Originally posted by TheWarHam:
As for Hollywood movies, usually I hear people complaining about the ridiculous recoil of the weapons in the games, and Hollywood movies usually have the opposite, so Im surprised at that of what you said.

Shotguns are the example the dev used. Buckshot has really bad penetration. However because of movies and/or misinformation people have formed the idea that shotguns are monster guns that can easily shoot through walls, etc. That's why in the game the shotguns, which shoot buckshot, have more penetration than they should.

He also used the UZI as an example, but I forget what he said about it.

Bottom line is that this person talks about how they push for realism and will continue to push for realism yet another dev stated that they did the exact opposite in regards to the guns, and by playing the game you see that the lack of realism is evident in other things as well such as: The cover system; No military or otherwise trained person would ever put their backs flat against a wall for cover. Especially not when they intend to enter a room. It's called the "button hook" technique and is VERY dangerous.

quote:

One of the concerns with this technique, according to three experienced scouts with the Los Angeles County (Calif.) SD’s Special Weapons Team who conducted hands-on training exercises recently for the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin, is that the button hook “propels you into unknown territory.”

Once you’ve made the turn across the threshold and are in the room, “you’re committed,” says one of the instructors, Mark Schlegel. “You may suddenly find yourself confronting a suspect who’s in an ambush position, and you’ll be at a disadvantage because you’ll be forced to make instantaneous decisions while filly exposed in the room.”

I've worked at a local paintball place for a couple years now during the summer, and I've never seen even a person playing for the first time using this sort of back flat against the wall type cover. This tells me that all it takes is a little common sense to know that it's no good.

Another Hollywood inspiration is single handedly defending against and disabling a fully armed Attack Helicopter and wave after wave of infantry. How a game could have that, and still have people saying "It's realistic! Really, it is!" is beyond my understanding I guess.

quote:

Yeah, I CAN see this game headed in a bad direction in X amount of years, it may it may not. It is HEADED that way, but Vegas 2, I just dont see it.

Get your hands on one of the older Rainbow Six's . Play it, and then come back and tell us that Rainbow Six hasn't already been transformed into a Halo knockoff.

Just how is this game on the 360 with the patch? If it fixes what it claims to fix, it should be the true RB6V2 it advertises itself to be on the back of the box. And if they really do patch the PS3 version, I'll be buying it..

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Originally posted by Doc_Gerbil_1:
Just how is this game on the 360 with the patch? If it fixes what it claims to fix, it should be the true RB6V2 it advertises itself to be on the back of the box. And if they really do patch the PS3 version, I'll be buying it..

Truthfully don't even look at the back of the box. The front cover is enough of a lie.

Not to mention the back will probably say CO-OP 2-10

Yeah Ive played old Rainbow Sixes, and I agree with you in some aspects, but honestly I think this game was just turning more into the light of modern gaming. Really, nobody wants to run around with "1" health anymore. (As an example I mean,) regenerating health doesnt take that much away from realism and makes the game much more enjoyable.


But yes I do feel you, Ubisoft could keep going.

quote:

Originally posted by TheWarHam:
Yeah Ive played old Rainbow Sixes, and I agree with you in some aspects, but honestly I think this game was just turning more into the light of modern gaming. Really, nobody wants to run around with "1" health anymore. (As an example I mean,) regenerating health doesnt take that much away from realism and makes the game much more enjoyable.


But yes I do feel you, Ubisoft could keep going.

Actually lots of people do. It gives you a sense of danger.

Plus, if you get shot even if you're wearing a vest the chance of you sustaining damage you won't recover from is still high. Also your vest offers less and less protection as you get shot and the ceramic plated in your vest break or get damaged. They don't regenerate. You also don't recover from a broken rib or other such injusies due to the impact either.

That's something the old Rainbow Six simulated pretty well, and the original Ghost Recon simulated extremely well.

In R6 if you got shot, you lost health. This in a way simulated your armor becoming damaged and offering less protection and/or your body sustaining injuries. Eventually enough of those injuries would result in you no longer being able to continue (you died or were incapacitated, either way it was depicted as you dying).

In Ghost Recon no only did you lose health to show the accumulation of injuries and/or depredation of armor, but you also had gameplay mechanics in place to make the player FEEL these injuries.

If you got shot in the legs, you limped and moved slower.
If you got shot in the arm, your accuracy and recoil would suffer.
If I remember correctly, there was also an injury that you sustained that prevented you from going prone/crouching.

quote:

Cambiotti: With any project, we always wish we had more time, but I feel we added the necessary game features that make this game stand on its own, from improving the AI to integrating the P.E.C. in single player to a seamless co-op transition.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The spin... The spin...

I am dizzy.

quote:

Originally posted by TheWarHam:
Yeah Ive played old Rainbow Sixes, and I agree with you in some aspects, but honestly I think this game was just turning more into the light of modern gaming. Really, nobody wants to run around with "1" health anymore. (As an example I mean,) regenerating health doesnt take that much away from realism and makes the game much more enjoyable.


But yes I do feel you, Ubisoft could keep going.

The thing is, the original R6 and Rogue Spear both had health regeneration in it, just not they way know it. Fatigue plays a big part of the game too.

In R6/RS, yes, an operative could be killed with one shot. If so, that operative was dead the rest of the whole campaign. If an operative was injured, he needed to get healthy before he could be used on a mission. He healed over time, most times over a couple of weeks time (real world time actually). Fatigued Rainbow operatives "healed" in a couple of days time. There are a couple of missions in both R6 and RS where you had to use the same operatives in back to back missions. They would start the second mission already fatigued. This lead you to choose operatives that had more stamina than other attributes so they could run both missions competently.

This is how innovative R6/RS really were. Many of us cared about all the operatives that we would make branch campaigns if one operative got killed or rerun the mission so he wouldn't get killed. With these new games (hero character type), one doesn't really care about the operatives as they are always there for the next level no matter if they are killed or not.

These new games may be fun for some of y'all, but they are far from innovative.

What a bunch of L I E S !!! OMFG !!!



We are inviting a guy from IGN to read around in this forums LOL.



OH wait.... it's here already !!




cheerios

ive havent seen this much hot **** come out of someones mouth in years

quote:

Bottom line is that this person talks about how they push for realism and will continue to push for realism yet another dev stated that they did the exact opposite in regards to the guns

FYI, its the same dev in both interviews you mention. he contradicts himself cause he is obviously a moron (you can easily tell by reading both interviews)

quote:

Cambiotti: I don't think we would change anything on RSV2 because we successfully tied in all the modes together through the customization and rewards system. However, that doesn't mean we won't explore new options for future Rainbow Six games. We know co-op is very popular and we need to see how we can continue to set the bar even higher.

Do you all think they will be able to reach the highest plateau and perfect 1 player co-op in the next Rainbow?