I have one big problem with most of the discussions in this forum: They are all from the viewpoint of R6 experts!

If we want to draw in "new audiences" and get R6 more attractive for new players, we have to reconsider some things seriously. This is particularly true for the MP gameplay, which tends to be more attracting for expert players than for newbies!

When i raised this matter in other threads, strangely enough, i get ignored by most people here. Why might that be? Because the matter "newbies" is a taboo? Because some people dread to think about other perspectives than the expert perspective?

Anyway, i outline here one last time again, what i think that it is the MOST important aspect of R6 MP if you want to make it more attractive to new players and players from other games:

Reduce frustration in R6:5 multiplayer for newbies and not so experienced players!!!

I can't stress that point often enough. For me, it is ALWAYS exactly THAT point, when i think: "Hey, why should i play a game, where i almost always get killed within seconds by MP freaks? (hope, this expression is no offense in english)

I tell you: Most people WILL leave the game soon, because they are too frustrated!!! They won't tell the truth here in the forum, they won't tell anybody, they will just DISAPPEAR and go on to another game!

I even know of people who didn't DARE to try a FPS MP game, because of this lack of chances against MP freaks.

That perspecetive might be off the limit to some expert players, but it is a very IMPORTANT one, if we want that R6 grows and gets a bigger community.

Who of you played WoW? Think of a WoW, where high-level characters can attack EVERY low-level character from the other fraction. WoW would NEVER have reached that popularity, just because most new players would give up the game, because they would get constantly killed from high-level players!

afaik, WoW has two kinds of servers: One, where you play as described above, and the other where you can't be attacked by other players, except, YOU decide to. The later protects low level players from high-level players.


In the following, i will list the answers, i usually get to my point of view - and what i think about these answers:


1) Newbies can learn from watching how the expert players play

Come on, i learn more by playing than watching OTHER players play. Of course, continuously i leran the one or other trick by watching, but this should not be the rule. And it takes a very long time to train, until i have the experience and dexterity of expert players. That is no fun, that is hard training!!!

And i believe, that a computer game should be FUN in first place!


2) Newbies can go to a newbie server

Sorry, i have never seen a dedicated newbie server. And as soon as one single expert player enters the server, he will slaughter the newbie players. Correct me, if i am wrong!


3) Newbies can host there own newbie game

Oh my god! This is a typically geek answer! If i am a newbie, i just want to play, without achieving knowledge of hosting my own server! Welcome to reality!


4) Newbies can join a clan

This advice it not so bad, but again i doubt, that a newbie wants to join a clan from the start. There are a lot of casual players, who just want to play for an evening from time to time. Or they want to play a while, before they want to decide which clan they want to join.


5) Newbies just have to accept the game as it is

Keep on thinking that way, and R6 will not draw in very much of "new audiences"!


6) Other answers like: "It worked with us, so why shouldn't it work for others." "You have to learn it the hard way." and so on.

Come on, don't forget that playing R6 should be fun at first place for most people. Of course, there is also the aspect of training, learning and contest. But even this should be FUN after all.


We have to get away from that kind of "elite club thinking", that some obviously have. The most potentiel of reaching new players lies in all those newbies out there... not so much in expert players!!!

Let's don't be so selfish and egocentric. Let's look for ways to make R6 MP more fun for newbies!!!


Some suggestions from myself:

1) Introduce that kind of "honor" from AA. So you have a measure of expertize. Just one account per player, administrated on the UBI server.

Then implement the possibility to constrain the players to some servers to certain "honor-levels". So, an expert player cannot enter a server for newbies. (Strangely, this method is well accepted the other way around)

2) I don't think that respawn is the right solution. MAYBE in coop modes, but NOT in competion modes.

R6 actually SHOULD keep that feeling of fear of getting killed. But we have to increase the chance for newbies, that they will survive.

3) Keep the "honor"-levels of players automatically evenly distributed to the different teams. There should not be one expert team and one newbie team. i.e. some team members get transfered to the other team automatically to implement this.

4) To reach "honor"-points, always the whole TEAM should accomplish the objectives, not single players. And all the players should get those honor points. Maybe the player, who has reached an objective could get a small bonus amount of points. (just like in AA)

5) Certain selfish actions like team kills and maybe others should result in a decrement in "honor" points.

I suggest, that all these features get implemented with the possibility to turn them off if wished. BUT if there are official servers for R5:6, some of them should use these features.


Maybe you come up with more and even better features to make R6:MP more appealing for newbies!


By the way, the honor-point-system of AA is one big step into the right direction. But AA still suffers from MP freaks dominating the games. When i happend to experience one of those rare occasions where i played with only players about my honor leve, i had MUCH more fun than usual!!!


This thread is not meant as an offense in any way!!!

I am just getting tired of listening to some dozens of experienced players, who think that everybody should play MP as they like to.


DreamMarine

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DreamMarine,

I think it should be left as it is, with every game that comes out there is a learning curve to master, it just takes time. The honor systemn in AA was a good concept in theory but realy bad in practice, there is alot of balance issues regarding that honor system.

If they get upset that it's too hard, there is always co-op to play, which they can learn the basics then go back to adversial and get used to playing real people. Playing real people is a challenge and there will always be someone better then you, the only thing you as a player can do is try try and try again till you get better, practise makes pefect.

Hey dream counter strike source is the game you should go for, what you wanted it got almost most of it there. If not try bf2!!! they are both to your requirements.

Alot of it has to do with the amount of time some of us invested in this series, and these forums. Some of us were here when this place( the R6 forums) were completely dead and people like you decided it wasnt important enough to join.

The guy has a huge point, lets not just pass it off as noob talk. In order for a community to flourish and work well we need new players. By throwing someone new into a harsh enviroment we alienate them, one by destroying them fast over and over, two by calling them noob, newibe or whatever. There are great tools now availble from a major company that ubi deals with(nda must shush) that can measure every aspect of the players experaince, on and offline. This way we can judge the players skill level, and categorize players accordingly. And by presenting it in the begging of the menu Ui of MP in a non obtrusive easy to understanding way, we can get the new players to select a skill based server selection- where the servers would get ranked based on the level of skills of the players inside. This would also provide a good way for those players who arnt the best of the best to not get squashed by MiN players or who ever else.

Nice one mate, these are the ideas that we need. Not stop dumbing it down.

quote:

Originally posted by T2RVS:
Hey dream counter strike source is the game you should go for, what you wanted it got almost most of it there. If not try bf2!!! they are both to your requirements.

quote:

Originally posted by Yen Lo:
Alot of it has to do with the amount of time some of us invested in this series, and these forums. Some of us were here when this place( the R6 forums) were completely dead and people like you decided it wasnt important enough to join.

This is the kind of elitist attitude DreamMarine is talking about... And this is just on a forum, let alone how people conduct themselves in a live MP game.

DreamMarine is, I assume, not talking about "dumbing down" the game to be like Lockdown, or Counter-Strike. What he is saying is even a game like R6 needs to find ways to be more beginner friendly, especially, in MP, as this is the life-blood of most computer games and what helps not only the series continue to grow, but the community as well.

........

DreamMarine:

You bring up a very good topic.

The "future" of video games is person vs. person multiplayer. The rise of "E-Sports" is only reinforcing this as well.

MP is what sustains a game in the long run and is the area which most developers focus on now because they know this is the largest and most vocal group who has the potential to generate ongoing sales well after the peak sales period of a game has ended.

The bigger issue all of your points raise, however, is something no one can change, in my opinion, and that is a lot of times the main reason MP games are frustrating for beginners is not because of the game itself. It is the people who play the game (which you alluded to indirectly) more than anything.

For example, video games have the Catch-22 of a lot of older adults playing them especially, on the PC... But video games main target demographic is still teens and early 20somethings who aren't very mature a lot of times and like to "rage" against other players because they are going through puberty; they know they can get away with it; who are just jerks online because they can be; etc.

This is one aspect older adults and younger players who are more mature than others have to learn to deal with because there is no solution to this problem... Other than play with people you know, or get to know through the course of learning the game afer you venture into MP for the first time.

However, I also agree game developers should take a semi-proactive approach to at least try and make MP more beginner friendly with some of the things you suggested and which have proven to work in other games like the Honor System in AA, team (skill) balance plug-ins, encouraging team scores vs. individual K/D ratios, etc. and other methods.

I think all MP-centric games should include "bots" (AI Players) so new players can train offline and get to know the maps, gametypes and generally how to play the game before they venture online.

This way they will at least have the basic gameplay mechanics down as well as map knowledge which is half the learning curve right there. After being in a game with real people for a while, they will see what strategies work and just "automatically" start to emulate them through repetition, I.E. if a team rushes to point A, then the player will rush with them. If at point A, they spam the area with grenades, the player will just follow suit if it results in kills or thinning out the other teams ranks, etc.

I also think bots are a good thing to have to allow a lot more "focused" training as a player can focus on particular aspects which they can't during a real, online game such as improving their aim with different weapons, movement tactics, experimenting with different approaches to certain points on a map, etc... Again, without the pressure of not being able to make a "newbie" mistake because it doesn't matter in an offline environment like this.

Bots also have the added benefit of helping new players learn at their own pace since this is also a big factor in MP gaming as well. People's learning curves are different and also effected by forces outside the game like having limited free time to "train" due to real life committments and other aspects you already mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
DreamMarine is, I assume, not talking about "dumbing down" the game to be like Lockdown, or Counter-Strike. What he is saying is even a game like R6 needs to find ways to be more beginner friendly, especially, in MP, as this is the life-blood of most computer games and what helps not only the series continue to grow, but the community as well.

PERFECT!

That's exactly what i mean - there is all in one sentence!

To make this clear: I love R6. I bought and played all parts (except LD), and it is my absolute favorite game. It really drags me in, because i am a big fan of that elite troops theme.

I want - as probably all of you, too - that R6 stays tactical and with that feeling of reality. Therefore, for example, i am against respawning - even it that MIGHT make it a little bit more newbie-friendly.

We have to look for other, better ways! Those tools Mystafyi talked about and the idea with the bots from KungFu_CIA definitily go to the right direction, imho!

Always keep in mind, that casual players might not long to become one of the best. They just want to enjoy tactical gameplay against real opponents on a relative low level!

Thx for your feedback!

ok heres an idea, Lets make areas specifically desginated for Noobs with floating pink ballons, and instead of guns they throw marshmellows at each other, when they get hit they have to ride a Pony through the forest of gumdrops and watch out for the Evil black locorish.

Sarcasm Aside.


THROW THAT IDEA OF RESPAWN RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW

New Idea

Paintball training sessions online.
www.airakon.com for simulation paintball markers (guns is not the right term)
Only people playing training can use them.
They can take like 5-6 shots instead of the elitest 1-3 and that would aid them
They can see the slower moving paintballs (300 FPS vrs the speed of sound)

Would this not aid them?

would providing a Lineant Damage model not Aid them?

Or offline MP bots
that roam around the map randomly searching out players...able to set the difficulty of them and improve as much as possible before going online.

Theres only so much you can do before skill dies and every one no matter who is just rolling a dice to see what results, and that game to me isnt fun, thats board games, if they cant take the time to improve their abilitys offline or in MP-coop then they shouldnt be playing PC/Console games, they should go back to Monopoly

quote:

Originally posted by subzero1900:
ok heres an idea, Lets make areas specifically desginated for Noobs with floating pink ballons, and instead of guns they throw marshmellows at each other, when they get hit they have to ride a Pony through the forest of gumdrops and watch out for the Evil black locorish.

I love that dude! He's really funny!

ROFL Sub those are great ideas, and if you offend anyone then you get sentenced to watching 10 episodes of Oprah with Dr. Phil, and Barney!

By the way: Did I mention that a lot of MP expert players are a miserable failure at SP and COOP?

I think helping new people become better at the game, and not scaring them away is completely a win win situation.

The plus sides include better competition in general gaming, and all in all it raises the fun of the game for everyone.

Also it is more profitable for ubi as it gains more followers who will buy the next in the squell.

The hard bit is how.

The honor system is kind of flawed as you will always get some ******* who get around it, just so they can kill new players. Generally these guys will be complete *******s and will not paint a nice picture to new players.
For example keeping your honor down though tks and other methods.

The paint ball thing is nice, but i see a few problems. Who is going to host the servers? New people wont be finding out how to while they are still learning. It would have to be paid for by some one.

Offline bots will never be like real people. It could help a bit, but I dont think it will work that well. And its a huge effort to make the bots work just for MP newcomers. I really dont see it happening. No offline game I have played comes anywhere near to representing online play. Even games like UT where SP is made to be similar, the is still a huge difference there.

I think someone also mentioned learning in coop. Now these game types are completely different. 1 you should run and gun in. The other you shouldnt. And thats just one of a million other differences.

Well that just leaves the marshmellows

In response to the original poster:

If the game is made so that newbies can hop right in their first time and compete with people that play every day, then it wouldn't even be fun. There would be no point to practice and get better. The competition aspect would be completely ruined. You want to ruin the games competitive aspect, just because you don't want to get killed so easily and refuse to practice. What makes a good game is the huge skill gap from the worst of the worst player to the very best player in the world. Without that gap, it's just more luck based, and less skill based.

I have said it before and I will say it again.

When one starts trying to appeal to everyone, they end up appealing to no one.

Don't get me wrong. I am sure that there are games out there that can be fun for beginners and advanced players. TWISTER comes to mind. Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots probably could.

But we are talking an FPTS. A First Person TACTICAL Shooter. The only way I can see such a game appealing to the casual gamer who just wants to kill people (virtually speaking, of course) and the the serious Tac Gamer who really wants to get into the tactics of the game, is to have ADMIN capabilities of setting up a "beginner" game server and an "advanced" game server.

Let me repeat that.

The **ONLY** way it could work is if you make it an GAME ADMIN option.

If you try to FORCE a dumbed down version on the advanced Tac player types, well..... We have seen what happens when THAT card is played.

If you try to force an advanced TAC version on the Noobs, you won't attract the new people you want.

The simplest, easiest and most effective method is to allow Game Admins to craft their OWN noob server, or their own advanced server. If you give Game Admins the option, they WILL create the server that their people want. Whether those people are noobs or advanced.

Think of it as a football game. Normal every day Joes would NOT have fun playing in a football game against the Jacksonville Jaguars. If you changed the game so that the Joes would have fun, the Jags would be bored outta their skulls.

But, if you have a game where BOTH teams are everyday Joes and a seperate game where BOTH teams are professional football players, then EVERYONE has fun...

You don't change the game to suit one group. You give Game Admins the ability to MAKE the games that suit the groups.

THAT is how you please everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Relenquish:
I think helping new people become better at the game, and not scaring them away is completely a win win situation.

The plus sides include better competition in general gaming, and all in all it raises the fun of the game for everyone.

Also it is more profitable for ubi as it gains more followers who will buy the next in the squell.

The hard bit is how.

EXACTLY!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dane175:
You want to ruin the games competitive aspect, just because you don't want to get killed so easily and refuse to practice. What makes a good game is the huge skill gap from the worst of the worst player to the very best player in the world.

I am always amazed again how unobjective people can become with this matter.

Of course, I love the competitive aspect of this game just as much as you. And I am sure, this is true for EVERY MP player of R6 - experts and newbies. I mean: Hey guys - this game is a SHOOTER... therefore a kind of "war game". HOW could that NOT be about competition.

I did never say to take away the competitive aspect from R6 MP. But I want to compete against players or in a way, so that i have a reasonable chance. As somewhere else I said before: You would not let a yellow belt in karate compete against a black belt. That's no fun for either of them. (Except, if the black belt just wants to beat up somebody... )

quote:

Originally posted by SODsniper:
The simplest, easiest and most effective method is to allow Game Admins to craft their OWN noob server, or their own advanced server. If you give Game Admins the option, they WILL create the server that their people want. Whether those people are noobs or advanced.

To a certain degree I agree with SODsniper. But I would go one step further:

The admin must have the possibility to restrict the server to players of a certain range of expertise. (To stick with the karate example: yellow belts should compete against yellow belts - or maybe even orange belts. Brown and black belts should compete with fighters of their expertise)


I can't see, where this takes away fun from MP gameplay! Actually, i truly believe, that this would increase massively the fun for everybody:

- Expert players get a real challenge and don't have to get annoyed by newbies.

- Newbie players get exactly the right measure of competitiveness and don't get frustrated by expert players they have no chance against.


DreamMarine

Certain game modes require respawns, those like CTF and Domination I think most people would agree if they where on those game modes "only" no problem, it's when they can be applied to other modes like TDM, Bomb defusal, VIP etc, it takes the edge away.

I can only use Counter-Strike as an example I guess...The modes are Hostage rescue or bomb defusal, I've never ever seen respawns on that game, even though you can do it. The reason why it's like that and it's got mass appeal is because it's simplistic and fun, join, buy some weapons and go shoot baddies. CSS and Rainbow six use the same concept TDM, but with actual ojectives only difference really.

BF2 and DoD use CTF or Domination modes where respawns are needed, they are popular because it's easy to play still takes a learning curve though, it appeals because it has a range of things cars, planes,tanks,boats the list goes on it appeals to those who like flying and driving games. Though they can still have the same respawn problem, if all their bases are taken over everyone has to wait till a new point goes up, which could be seconds could be minutes.

I think the answer would be to have a sim and arcade mode, they use the standard respawn system R6 uses, once dead you're dead till next round... But you take more gun fire and you have health in numbers like css. Those who want to play R6 the way it's always been can play SIM mode, if this could be filtered out in server screen I wouldn't have a problem with it, what you can't see doesn't hurt you.

I really don't think that respawn would be a solution in any way! It would really take away the tactics from R6. I don't want to see respawn in R6!

That is one reason why I opened this thread. People who vote for respawn do this, because they want to make R6 more user-friendly for newbies.

But, said again, i believe that respawn is the WRONG approach to the newbie-casual player-problem. Casual players like me don't want to dilute the gameplay of R6 in any way!!!

But we HAVE to find a way to make R6 MP more appealing to newbies and casual players.

So please everbody go on with looking for the best solution!

Just realise something

A. If you keep the noobs playing with noobs they wont get better. (idea of server seperatism)

B. If they are getting slaughtered on a server by one person time and time again (one thing comes to mind) Go a diffrent route

C. Server admins are the solution, Hell, If Ubi Held Noobie Servers and gave designated people Limited access to the server admin features, they could help prevent the Elite coming in the server and blowing the noobs away, and keeping people who have no intrest in playing with cooperation (tkers) banned off of servers.

D. But there in itself is the problem, back in the glory days of R6 (before Rvs) we were able to force people onto teams (balance it out) if 4 or 6 players that were generally good and you had 3 or 4 that were Elite on one team the admin (usually) forced 1-2 of the good players on to the other team to balance it out.

E. sometimes the admin would go alone with like 5-6 people left on the other team (king of the hill) because he was better

F. There is no solution for fixing a NOOB besides them Investing Time, Weeks, Months, Days, Hell Even Years. (if they dont have the patience to tough it out then they really dont need to be playing "Tactical" games, there is no naturally born tactician, they are developed)

That's the solution, just balance out the teams on the server. That simple.

This is just a suggestion. Handicap option.

When applied to a server, optional, the worst players gain a handicap. Maybe more life etc.

I would suggest only the worst get a handicap, but it could help. Say those whos average kill/death ratio is below 0.2 over a period of 5 or more rounds. Thats 1 kill per 5 deaths.

Balancing out the teams is always a good idea. But it doesnt stop the newest players getting their asses kicked.