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Forums Might and Magic Heroes of Might and Magic V General Discussion Inferno strategy guide.|
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If you are lucky to have Hellfire damage bonus often - yes, I agree. But the chance is 30% and if that's your only hope, you risk very serious defeat. I've witnessed more than 1 or 2 battles without even 1 "activation" of Hellfire and the results were grim for Inferno's army. I'm sure that evryone has actually, so I think you get my point. Well... since the fire damage seems to change only when you get additional Spell Power, I think this is logical conclusion. At least I'm pretty sure that even stacks of more than 100 cretures (for example) deal the same damage as a single creature. I can't accept such reasoning. If you win a battle becouse of some bug, is this real victory? It's the same. Against Magic factions Dark Magis is somewhat useful, but against Haven and Sylvan it makes little difference in the end. The first are just too tough and too "hard-hitting" for you, the second are faster (especially with Wyndaal) and, again, tough. The problem is not to weaken the enemy army but to save your own before it is destroyed. Pupper Master is nice magic, Confusion too, but they are Inferno's monopoly. Even Haven has access to them! If each faction has access to the same resources, Inferno will still suffer more and benefit less than most of the others. This is becouse of Sacrificial Pit, the insane requirements for the Devils (15 mercury for example) and the overall prices of the dwellings. Sylvan, Haven and Necropolis will build much faster under such circumstances and thus will explore the map faster (by the way exploring the map with Sylvan is easier than doing the same with any other faction). Necropiolis can benefit from any map with more than 2 towns (for the two players), i.e. - all the maps. I think evryone agrees that this is extremely possible, let's stop discussing Deleb! You need to be MUCH more specific about "fine". My experience is quite different. |
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Ok sorry, I didnt realise english isnt your first language. Exploits in this context means 'great deeds' there ya go, I taught you a new word. |
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Xenofex.
If you belive hellfire is bugged ok I cannot argue about it with you, I belive it might be working as intended because its been unchanged so far. Different opinions. About how often it procs. If youve got 5 stacks of 1 succubi vs a shooter. The shooters normally have 4 stacks then. The shooters wont target succubi as they are to few for them to kill they rather target demons. Each of the succubi will get 4 hits. Now that 20 hits. 20*0.3 = 6. You pretty much only need 4 hits to make it out with very few losses, then you have your hero aswell using some spell. OFC naturally they can act before you etc. But losses will be limited to demons. And I never seen hellfire not proc in a fight. As I said I never had difficulties building inferno town upp. Maybe you are doing something wrong? You say puppet master is nice magic, I see you have no clue about the inferno faction only by reading that statement. Infernos lack of SP makes this a useless spell. Frenzy however is excellent. And vs a haven player with lots of archers mass confusion and frenzy are excellent. Also whats great about Inferno is that you will be the only one in end game fight to cast spells if you play them right, except vs academy but you will put them on lower mana atleast and I dont have problems with academy anyway. Sylvian might be difficult sometimes aswell to get all mana from, fortunatley thef often lack enlightment skill. Also to rule a might faction you need magic. What better way is there to save your creatures then by weakening the opponent with spells costing 50% initiative? You have no chance to rule haven with just might, becuase haven is a btter might faction then infeno, and by reading so I now understand why you think they are unsufficient. You pretty much must have dark magic to take haven on. Combiend with imps he will have no mana to dispell it. Rendering archers and priests uselss helps. Making paladins hit their own also helps. And here I can agree on one thing making inferno having some trouble - they must get dark magic. I would like to see it get 10% chance of appearing in skill choices instead of destructive magic. |
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most of ppl agree that inferno is too weak. some say it is just sophisticated and more difficult to play. although i am in first group, maybe those few are right? maybe we just dont know how to play inferno?
instead of further theory, i suggest that both of you play 10 games. xenofex plays each other faction 2 times, ishwarr plays inferno 10 times. agreement not to take luck, each player chooses hero for his opponents and xenofex does not take Sylvan on Divided Loyalty map etc (there is lvl3 dwelling and elves are too good) I bet the score will be 8/2 for xenofex |
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OK, here are the "difficulties": almost all the dwellings require more than 2 resources (and gold of course) which is quite a mystery, provided that the cretures from these dwellings are neither too strong, nor have some "awesome" special abilities. Never mind. This however spends your "rare" resources very quickly and usually when you get Pit Fiends, you are already "broke". The Sacrificial Pit is a great obstacle - 2000 gold, 5 sulfur and 5 can't-remmember-what-else is one very serious price, especially since you need this building to construct Castle. The "Tample of the Fallen" requires great ammount of resources and these 15 mercury among them are just... On the top of that your Tier 6 creture is the most expensive in the game, the Tier 7 beast is among the most expensive and only the Nightmares are relatevely cheap for their level among the others. Let's see the other factions. Haven needs no comment (I think), since they require mainly gold - you build Capitol, you solve most of your problems. Usually the Angels appear on the battlefield much earlier than the Devils. Sylvan builds quickly too. Usually when Inferno has Pit Fiends, along with Citadel, Sylvan has Castle, Capitol and all Tier 1-5 cretures (they don't need the Treants desperately - I can't say the same about Inferno and the Pit Fiends - and if they do, their building is cheap and usually can be built at the moment). Also, for some reason, Sylvan always has enough gold to buy most of its population AND even spare some money for upgrades while Inferno has problems even with the last 4 cretures and almost always lacks gold (and sometimes resources) for upgrades. Necropolis is not forced to build quickly but usually the undead get their Wights before the Pit Fiends, without risking to delay the building of Capitol and Castle (if they aren't already built). Only Academy and Dungeon have almost the same problems with their building plans, but their Tier 1-4 cretuires are also stronger, which helps them to explore the map faster (and their Heroes are also spellcasters). These are not the only problem, which Inferno faces, but they are usually enough to ensure that the "demonic army" will be outnumbered almost at any stage of the game. Let's restrain from such conclusions.  I don't think that one (or even 1000) post can tell you much about my skills. And by the way I can't see how Spell Power is restrictive for a spell, the duration of which is rarely more than 1 "turn" - it's a suicide to allow someone to "control" some stack longer than that. No, that's not the problem about Pupper Master. Let's say you use it against Haven. In order to use it effectively, you need: 1) your Hero to act before the enemy Paladins - this is something I haven't witnessed yet and 2)the enemy Hero to act after the Paladins, so can't "slap" them and dispel the magic for almost no damage. If one of these two parts is missing, you've just wasted your Spell Points AND turn. Frenzy is more useful, I agree, but again you need to cast it before the Paladins' action. If you cast it to another stack, the enemy will likely ignore you and will use the Paladins to slay the most powerful stack in their range - usually they hit only once... What happens after that is usually irrelevant. Against Sylvan with Wyngaal you are in even worse situation. The entire enemy army will act before you (well, at least the most dangerous cretures will) and if you combine this with "Avanger", you can figure out what will happen. More importantly - you'll be forced to defend. I suppose you have enough experience and you know what happens when cretures with low Defense and Health values are forced to defend.  The opponent just needs to "move" the Treants to your side of the battlefield to ensure his victory - and sometimes it is ensured even after the first strikes of the Emerald Dragons, the Silver Unicorns and the Master Hunters. I hope you know that casting Dark spells against Academy is a little tricky enterprise, so I'll skip the comment here. However, vs. the Mages you'll do better to use brute force instead of spells - usually helps. Against Necropolis Dark Magic is almost useless. Enough said. Only against Dungeon you can use Dark spells efficiently. One "frenzied" or "controlled" Deep Hydra is a beautiful sight. But again you the enemy is not defeated just like that. It is very important to slay the Black Dragons as soon as possible and if you fail to do so before the Arch Devils are killed, you are in trouble. Anyway, I think that vs. the Warlocks are your best cahnces.Last of all - all the strategies with Inferno, as risky and difficult as they are, are based on 1 assumption - the enemy enters combat without Spell Points (except Academy). Even in this case, you have serious problems with most of the factions. And what happens if you don't have Imps/Familiars in you army? I don't think that one faction should be so dependant on 1 creture, especially so fragile one. Unfortunately I can't respond to any "on-line" challenge. I know that this makes my argumentation more vulnerable, but it can't be helped - the restriction is called "Internet"  |
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if you cannot, i will gladly do those 10 fights and prove how useless **** inferno is
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Erm galliard1981 didn't I play and beat you 1vs1 peninsula last week?
you asked me NOT to go Inferno with Deleb implying it was in some way overpowered, and I then went on to beat you using Academy (my 2nd time ever with them) Considering I am about 31-1 with Inferno I very much doubt xenofex will somehow make that 33-9 Its alright, you werent too bad, but I doubt you'd beat me 1 out of 10 going from what happened last time (You quit after I took your castle by sea with a hero that sailed over with 7 gargoyles.. depriving me of killing your main hero) Edit: I see you say opponent chooses heroes, well I said I am a Deleb expert, I have never tried another Inferno hero but I can try to get upto speed and then we'll see. Why don't you play Izzachar Fact of the matter is that every team has some very good heroes, why not just pick the best from each team As I see it: Inferno: Deleb Sylvian: Wyngaal Necro: Kasper, Vlad Academy: Nathir, Jhora Haven: Dougal (?) Dungeon: Sinitar |
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yeah i remember that now but it was for 2 reasons:
1. i underestimated you, because you took inferno 2. i didnt have time to buy garrison in town because our noob fight took too much time 3. There was crappy translation in my country and i thought you have few gargoyles, not several 4. i didnt know that splitting stack during combat is possible (thank you for this knowledge) Let us not make offtop. If i meet you again on ubi.com, i can face you and prove the weakness of this faction. Edit: Nival has just said that they are going to improve gating (at least i understood "major balance changes" as improving), so this discussion needs to stop for a moment anyway. |
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Oh? I wondered about doing this having seen the AI do it, but also did not believe it was possible. How does one split a stack in battle? |
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You can't do it in battle. You need to do it in the tactics face (when you place your troops). Just remove the stack you want to split from the battlefield. It will then be back in its army slot in your unit list while the units on the battlefield are all still greyed out. Now just split the stack as usual by dragging it to an empty slot while holding the shift key. You can only split an army if you still have an empty slot. So if your hero already has 7 armies, it's no longer possible. |
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Ahhh! I should have realized that. Thanks for the enlightenment.
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Xenofex firstly I wanna apologize for my bad attitude. Your arguements are most welcome I was just in a bad mood at the time. You and I obviously play MP very differently.
I never got arch devils in MP, and only very few times I got devils. I try to win before my opponent gets tier 7 units because I know I cant get them, and hellfire makes better difference early on. As you said getting devils is VERY expensive. You need a merc mine early and if its guarded by druids its just not worth taking it. And yes the sacrificial pit is expensive but if there are some resources/windmill etc theres usually no problems getting it in time. I also usually have alot of ore so I usually trade some off it and some of my sulfur (I have lots of this because of resource silo) for whatever I need for sacrificial pit. Getting mage guild lv 1 and possibly 2 at the same time is doable but after that you really need to go hunt resources to get mage guild to higher lv. By the time when most of my games settle even if you could afford building mage guild lv 5 with inferno (I never do this way to expensive, rather have devils) and get puppet master you might have 5-6 SP and thats even fairly much for a demonlord. Puppet masters formula works like this: It remains under controll for 0.25*SP turns and its initiative during this time is reduced by 0.03 * SP * initiatve. so when having 6 SP a paladin would get 3 initative. and this spell will last 1.5 turns. Chances are very slim that you will have the slightest chance to use the palladins and if casted on marksmen who have 8 initative there is no chance you will be able to use them. So theres a guarantee that the enemy hero will act before whatever you puppet masterd and also if you puppet masterd someone else then paladins can easely dispell it. therefor I think frenzy is much better since it doesnt require SP at all, with expert dark magic allows two actions, with imps and using it on pallas there is nothing that can dispell it. It doesnt change initative. What inferno need the most is: A better alternative to frenzy, blindness isnt very usefull with low SP. And higher chances of getting dark magic IMO this is what hampers the faction the most. Not getting dark magic can mean a certain loss  |
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Never try Klaus?   |
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Yeah I know Klaus is reputed as being good, but with the current maps it's not always certain you will get many paladins by the time the game is over making him somewhat weaker.
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Will be very strong in the future XXL random maps  |
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He's "very strong" even now. There's no such thing as "not enough Paladins". 1 Paladin with Klaus (at level 10+) is at least equal to 1 Archangel. This is one of the Heroes who needs mighty downgrade (along with his entire faction).
No problem. The difference between the “game styles†is probably because of the maps. I don’t like “blitzkrieg†games (the people I play with don’t like them too), so maps like “Peninsula†are not among my favourite. Usually I play on the so-called “big†and “very big†maps, but without any “stipulations†like “We’ll gather our armies after N months and we’ll meet at spot X to break some skullsâ€Â. Sometimes the games include 2 or 3 “AI players†for more fun, but I don’t draw any conclusions from their performance. Usually this makes the exercise about 3-4 months long, sometimes even more. You, on the other hand, mentioned that you like quick games. I’ve already told you that most of your suggestions are very useful for small maps and relatively quick games (however I don’t consider myself lucky enough to rely on “Hellfire†so much â€" I’ve already lost too many games because of this â€" and playing with Deleb grows boring and it is not very expedient for long games). But I can’t agree that Inferno remains competitive after 3 or more “months†â€" even with the ill-famed Deleb. Against Haven you can try to use Dark spells, Frenzy for example, but this even this is pointless. The faction has such creatures at its disposal that it can counter virtually everything. For example: you play against Inferno and want to protect your “units†from these irritating Dark spells, which you can’t dispel (because we assume that you have no Spell Points). Simple â€" just leave the enemy no opportunity to cast spells or make his attempts to do so useless! First â€" Klaus has to be your main Hero. Second â€" you don’t build Altar of Light, even if you have the gold and the… stones â€" use the money to “train†Cavaliers instead. Third â€" you make sure that when you engage the opponent, you’ll have a good number of Imperial Griffins in your army. The rest is simple, even for a rookie (which is really bothersome, because it makes one experienced player and the mentioned raw recruit equal just because of one unbalanced faction). You split the Paladins in two or even three groups â€" since you have no Angels/Archangels in your army, you’ll have no problems with the positioning. The Paladins have 12 Initiative, which is enough to act before the enemy Hero. They also have 8 Speed, which means they’ll have access to at least one unit from the first line of the enemy army even without Tactics (you can also take Aura of Swiftness, which will make their Speed 9). Splitting them on 2 or 3 stacks ensures that they’ll have access to all dangerous enemy creatures. If you still fear that the enemy Hero may act before them, place some insignificant creatures between the stacks of Paladins â€" Marksmen or Squires â€" if some of the stacks is “frenzied†for example, it won’t be able to hit another stack of Paladins. The only two “infernal†units, which are able to act before the Paladins are the Nightmares and the Cerberi â€" both of them are not good damage-dealers against Rangers and Knights, so even if you have some losses, they’ll be insignificant. In the meantime you can use the “Battle Dive†of the Imperial Griffins against the enemy Pit Lords or Succubi (I would attack the Succubi â€" the Paladins can deal with the Pit Lords) â€" it doesn’t matter what exactly is attacked, because after the attack it is either dead or nearly dead. When the Paladins get their turn, they make sure that the battle is over after their initial charge. It’s a fact that a stack of 20 Paladins with Klaus can kill a stack of 10-14 Black Dragons (without Luck-bonuses), and that’s even if the your Attack value and the enemy Defense value are similar - I can’t find any words both to express how idiotic is this, but that’s Haven’s “fair play†and only the game-developers can do something about it. All the possible targets (Devils/Arch Devils, Pit Fiends/Lords, Familiars, etc.) will be slaughtered or at least the losses will be so great that the rest of the battle will be just a series of fictitious “counterattacksâ€Â. This approach has only two disadvantages â€" 1) it’s useless if the enemy decides to “hide†in his castle (we assume that he’s able to do so) â€" this is usually a “stalemateâ€Â, because he won’t dare to engage you in “field combatâ€Â, but on the other hand one eventual “siege†is too risky for you; 2) if the terrain has too many obstacles, some of the Paladins may not be able to “charge†during the first “turn†which will give the enemy some advantage, but the end of the battle will probably be the same. So what’s the point in playing against Haven on large maps anyway? It’s a hopeless cause. Sylvan needs only Wyngaal to make your game nightmare. Even if you have Tactics (you need it to ensure that only the Emerald Dragons will be able to strike with full power during the first “round†and spare yourself some pain from the Silver Unicorn’s attacks), one hit with “luck†or against some “favored†enemy during the first “round†will make what’s left of the “battle†just some stupid formality. Inferno just has no defensive tactics (and this is because of the weak creatures and the lack of Defense from the side of the Demon Lord) to deal with opponent who makes his “monsters†faster than the “demonsâ€Â. You can cast Dark spells as much as you want â€" but you won’t have enough alive “units†to make use of them. (If this explanation seems too “partial†to you, I can give some more specific examples). I’m still waiting for some response about eventual tactics against Necropolis. It’s obvious that you can’t rely on Dark Magic here. Furthermore â€" the Necromancers have access to “Banish†so you can’t rely even on “Gating†too much. And, of course, the undead are always the largest force on the battlefield. (By the way I’m really irritated that the game of Inferno against Necropolis is so crippled. In Heroes III “the demons†were perhaps the only faction, which was able to deal relatively easyly with the undead. The Arch Devils â€" one extremely dangerous creature, unlike its much less useful “cousin†from Heroes V â€" along with the Cerberi and the Efteet Sultans gave them serious tactical flexibility, the hordes of Horned Demons gave them significant brute force and these two were enough to destroy the self-proclaimed “indomitable†undead army). In the early stages Kaspar, Deirdre and Vladimir (if you can’t destroy his Spell Points) are very effective, even against Deleb. Academy can use Jhora against Inferno. The creatures are protected by Magic Mirror, the Colossus/Titan is immune to mind spells, the entire army is usually strengthened by artifacts. Jhora casts some Light spell at the beginning of the battle (“Endurance†for example, also “Magical Immunity†is a good offer for some creature with serious “artificial†combat improvements â€" additional Attack, Defense, whatever, if you find it too vulnerable to “Frenzyâ€Â, “Puppet Masterâ€Â, “Slowâ€Â, etc.) and makes them even more dangerous. The Archmagi have “Righteous Mightâ€Â, which works very well when it’s casted on the Titans or on the Rakhasas. I mean â€" casting Dark (or whatever… except perhaps Fireball with Master of Fire) spells against Academy is often a waste of Spell Points â€" they can counter this too easily. The only approach I find useful against them is the good old onslaught â€" this is one of the few things Inferno can do well. It’s not always effective, but at least you inflict some damage and allow some of your creatures to “gateâ€Â. About Dungeon, I have almost nothing else to say. The game against this faction is a gamble â€" the positioning of the two armies is very important (for example in one of my latest games I made the mistake to put the Familiars in the front row â€" and right in front of them there were some very pleased Blood Furies… also you need your Arch Devils to be in front of the enemy Black Dragons so they can attack and kill as many as possible before the enemy can do the same), the amount of Spell Points your Imps/Familiars manage to destroy too (Yrbeth and Sinitar are sometimes too powerful opponents, especially if they are “intelligentâ€Â) and so on. However, against them the Dark spells help more than against anyone else. Among other things, the game with Inferno follows one too strict formula and using your imagination is too dangerous. You desperately need “Attack†to make your creatures at least good damage-dealers (+â€ÂTactics†to make use of these huge, lazy Devils and too improve the efficiency of the Cerberi and the Nightmares), “Dark Magic†and especially “Master of Mind†and “Master of Cursesâ€Â, “Defense†â€" so all these ridiculously fragile beasts can survive for more than 3 “rounds†in one battle, “Destructive Magic†â€" “Master of Fire†(and “Fireball†from the Mage Guild of course) and “Searing Flamesâ€Â, if you want powerful “Hellfire†during the first several weeks and - of course â€" “Luckâ€Â, the skill which is so unbalanced that it can transform even the most pathetic army into perfect war machine (the armies, which are already such “war machines†benefit more though). Your only tactics in battle is “kill before they kill youâ€Â, i.e. brutal suicidal offensive. This makes some sense, since Inferno is “evil†and “bloodthirsty†faction, but if we talk about pragmatic gameplay, this shouldn’t be their only method of approach, because the other factions learn how to respond to the assaults very quickly. I still think that “the demons†need serious improvement. |
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I must say I dont have much expereince of larger maps. And your arguements are very strong.
While typing the original thread I thought undead could be counterd with sorcery + lightning stunning allthough it has been nerfed in 1.2. Now not even slow and icebolt is sufficient to stop skellies, those few hits the skellies do are enough. I agree undead are extremely hard for inferno, their archers with decent initiative decimate your troops to quickly, you wont have time to deal with whatever is guarding the skellies before its to late. But then again wich faction doesnt have a hard time vs necro late game? Nival allready made statements that necromancy will be changed (next patch?). I think that inferno with their attack first and ask questions later type of game have the hardest time with this problem. And you are right about klaus aswell. However is this something that proves inferno week or just one other faction + a hero a bit to strong? And when we are choosing heroes, I think alastor can put any sylvian hero in trouble though I havent met them all yet. And as I said I never played 4+ months online games so I cant tell wether or not those green dragons are enough to decimate your force before you can mass confuse + gate and debuff his army. But I clearly see wyngaals advantage here, guaranteed getting archers and druids to act before alastor is scary. I have won vs sylvian players online though using alastor and I won pretty easy, I cannot tell if these players was doing bad or if I was lucky with alastor beeing before their ranged (cant remember details). To bad I rarely face sylvian online and only haven and necro Deleb has the same imba advantage early game (small maps) as klaus has late game (bigger maps). I think specifik heros should be left out of the diskussion becuase they simply arent balanced on specifik maps so far. Biggest problem for infeno IMO is if they dont get dark magic that puts the faction in a lot of trouble. I think the opportunity beeing the hero that controlls the battle with imps + dark magic is a great advantage. It works on some factions better then others. I really think they could take iron maiden out of the game and replace it with a hero that starts with dark magic. Infero needs this. Dont know if I wrote it before but always try attack with a hero wich has as many imps as ure main has SP before attacking with main. After imp carrier attacked, your main summons and attacks. This way you can make most heros get no or little mana and you will still have alot of mana yourself. Well Im back to school now, wont have time to play many heroes games now or visit the forums To anyone reading this thread I probably wont be able to update it when the gating + training + necromancy changes come in (next?) patch. As I had hoped. |
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 Inferno don't need to loose his best hero(in)e... she is the only hope in small/medium maps... |
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I think Delebs way of playing differs way to much from all other factions and heroes. Having a hero beeing able to clear allmost any neutral with 20-40 demons is simply not fun. I took the gold mine in peninsula second week many times with deleb and also the lv 6 creature guaring high lv artifact near the mine. Also this hero can rush in small maps and win any game. Its not a balanced hero at all.
And I do not agree its the only hope in small medium maps. In small medium maps is where inferno is the best. I think Inferno would be much better of with someone starting with dark magic. I think that deleb should atleast be reworked and that inferno doesnt need two heroes that start with sorcery. |
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 Alastor may start with: -Basic Gating -Basic Dark Magic -Master of Mind not: Basic Gating, Basic Sorcery, Mana Regeneration...  |
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Forums Might and Magic Heroes of Might and Magic V General Discussion Inferno strategy guide.
