I wouldn't bother with First Aid Tent ability or Mark of the Damned and its sub abilities.

I think the most ideal combination for Demon Lord is: Defense, Attack, Enlightenment, Logistics and Destructive Magic, the rest aren't as important.

quote:

Well, gating is good against ranged too.
Just gate then ASAP right in front of ranged units. You'll lose 1 turn for real units, but in next turn when gated units appear, they'll block range units from firing to your real units.

I agree Inferno is the only faction this early were the shooters may only act once before you can kill them. Other factions have to pick them off 1 by 1. If you have one shooter stack, you can take at a maximum of one stack at each turn (not that you have that powerfull stacks yet) and one with your hero, it still leaves one or two stacks that can shoot you again.

Inferno only suffers the initial shooting. Whats tricky here is that you often gotta sacrifice some imps as they are the main targets but also the creature that gate fast an can block them. Keeping a couple of stacks with them 5 in each is enough to block shooters and enough not to get that many killed.

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So dont play it on heroic if you can avoid it.

So you just say "Look, dude, my faction sucks on Heroic difficulty so let's play on Hard instead, shall we?" Man, I'm furious that even on Heroic "difficulty" you have so much money and resources at the beginning ("Impossible" from Heroes III was far more interesting). I agree that the faction builds very hard if it lacks resources, but that's no excuse to make it usless on higher difficlties. For example Tower from Heroes III was very expensive town, but with careful biulding even on "Impossible" you could get over with this minus. Where's this balance here?
Second - your guide is useful only for the current maps (and not all of them either - on "Rise to Power" I suppose it will be quite useless, becouse you'll need at least enough armies to "cleanse" the Black Dragons, which guard the Keymasters) and for relatevely quick games. You even mentioned that you've never upgraded the Devils?! There's one whole skill you haven't seen in action then (Summon Pit Lords). Well, this is not a serious loss by the way, becouse in my opinion it is pretty useless. But without long-term strategy (your guide really lacks such - you have to admit it), how do you know what will be the "fate" of this faction on larger maps? You know - something XL-like? Let me tell you what I see right now:
- vs. Haven - you are doomed. You have nothing to counter the Paladins, except the terrain (if you are lucky, there'll be many obstacles). The Archangels are at least equal to the Arch Devils, if not better. The Imperial Griffins make sure that neither the Pit Lords, nor the Succubi Mistresses will act efficienty if they value their lives. If you manage to attack first (and that's very hard against Haven), the hordes of Marksmen will shoot you on sight with Precise shot. I don't think that you'll have the time to bother about the Inquisitors and the tank-like Squires, so let's skip them. The Knights have enough Defense to negate your Attack bonus, but they have much more Attack than your own Defense (and Counterstrike), many "boosting" abilities, so your creatures will die much faster. Probably you won't be able even to gate and if they manage to - this won't help. How to test that by yourself (for example), if you don't have some "friend" to help you: start a "Hot-Seat" game with Haven and Inferno. Make sure the two heroes reach at least level 20 before the battle against the other fellow (this is usual sight on the XL maps from Heroes III, even if you try to "rush"). Gather large enough armies and start the combat. If Inferno wins, post the result here and I'll immidiatly stop posting in this forum, I promise. And please, don't say that the idea is to "surprise" the enemy, that "this is war" and something like that. I know it very well. It's a fact however that on larger maps you rely on numbers and brute force much more than on tactics - this was the case in Heroes III and I can't see what will be the difference in eventual large maps in Heroes V.
- vs. Sylvan - when you finally "engage" the enemy, he'll have at least 3 of your creatures as "favoured enemies". The Devils are usually a rare sight, but even on the current maps there are plenty of Nightmares, Succibi and Pit Fiends/Lords. Rangers also have a lot of Defense, which means almost no damage bonus for your creatures. Also you're outmatched in the Speed-Initiative department, mainly becouse of the Emerald Dragons. The Treants make sure that the Druids and the Hunters are vulnerable only to the frigile Cerberi. Even if you can slaughter this whole force (including with "gating"), there are always at least half of the Treants left. Even without "Take Roots", they are tough enough to dalay the end of the combat at least 3-4 turns, during which the Ranger, even without Spell Points, uses Rain of Arrows and Deadeye Shot which very effectively destroys your forces. You'll hardly be victorious after such treatment.
- vs. Necropolis - well, I suppose there's no need to explain what will be the advantages for the undead after a long game. If you can defeat n "k" of Skeleton Archers and large numbers of the high-Tier creatures (which are much more than yours becouse of Herald of Death and Tample of the Netherworld), please post another Guide here so we all may learn how to do it.
- vs. Academy - here you have some chances. If you manage to "block" the Titans and the Mages until the second line "gates", you can even be victorius (almost proven). But this all depends too much on the enemy creatures' artifacts. If he's prepared to play against Inferno (and we suppose he'll be), the enemy can counter your tactics.
- vs. Dungeon - here are you biggest chances. If the Imps/Familiars destroy all the enemy Spell Points, without spells the Warlock's army will be an easy prey - again you must "block" the most dangerous units however. But "Elemental Chains" can appear to be very deadly, if some of the enemy creatures attack before you can "block" them. If you lose the Arch Devils too early, the rest of the battle will be very difficult.
Now, don't get me wrong - the current advices from your Giude are quite helpful - I've tested the most of them already after the game's release and they are really effective. Even some things are new for me. But you really need to take into account Inferno's chances in one long game - in my opinion only the long game tests the factions' power. And they (Inferno's chances) are really minor.

Many ppl say they suck on heroic, however they say the same in general about inferno, an opinion I do not share. So maybe the ppl saying this arent completely right? I dont know, I dont have much experience from heroic myself because I dont like the difficulty at all, I prefer somewhat faster games where you can terrorise your opponent fairly early. Im just saying if you think they are so terrible in heroic, if you dont like them and cant play them on that difficulty, maybe consider choosing another fation then. I do think having such a sturdy creature as the demons and as great possibilites off inflicting extra damage and guard your creatures with gated ones can be a bad thing though. I -think- inferno might be a good faction still in heroic.

we both can only speculate about XL maps.
I see no point in doing so what-so-ever. If inferno have a hard time when the first XL maps show upp we can take that diskussion then, it seems pretty unnecessary to have it now as noone can know what faction will be the best, only speculating about it even though in theory haven and necro seem to be good candidates.

And this is not a step to step guide theres no such thing. Its just a -guide-. I dont tell anyone to attack black dragons with 20 cerberus and 4 succubus. I hope noone is such a fool to take all my words as divine rules that you HAVE to follow. In this case after killing those dragons you can rearrange your army in any way you like.

I think using my guide you can handle many neutrals early on just as any other faction. After those first weeks you play as everyone else.

Raiding tactics still benefit inferno town alot, even on larger maps. If you have grok nearby he can run around with your army, played right noone will catch him. He can transfer units to your main for whatever purpose he needs them.

vs mana factions you can have a secondary hero attack first with just alot of imps (or as many as you have mana points on your main). 100 imps = 25 mana I think. Theres no unit in the game that can stop them before they drained mana and retreated from battle if you use em right. Then you summon them to your main and attack once more. With the mana drained from your 100 + all the other imps you have maybe 200 = 50 mana, you drained a total off 75 mana. Gate the imps and you might drain 20-25 more. 100 mana drained total is a problem for most factions. You will have enough mana yourself even though you just spend it all summoning the imps. I dont think you can say the same about the opponent.

quote:

Originally posted by Xenofex_086:

quote:

So dont play it on heroic if you can avoid it.

So you just say "Look, dude, my faction sucks on Heroic difficulty so let's play on Hard instead, shall we?" .

Yeah thats also something I hate.Hmm when said that in h3 the fly and dimension door was overpowered,They kept telling me to block it in the map editor.But thats no way of "balancing" a thing.
-I think gated creatures should act far more quicker when they actually gate to some place,ıts stupid to wait them act another turn as they are being slaughtered easily.Thats the way to go with Ä˚nferno balancing.
-Still paladins are no way of "comparing" since they are actually overpowered.But still pitfiend fireball damage could be more linear with it's number.
-Actually some points you mentioned are problems of "those" races rather than infernos like the legions of skeletons.
-Devils should be better for what we pay.
Still the guide is benefical.

I'm not really a big fan of "if you can't play a faction effectively on a certain map / difficutlty level / etc. then just go play another faction".

IMHO it would be NICE if the factions were better balanced across a wide variety of map types / sizes / and difficulty levels.

Usually I bang on Necros for being too weak early & too strong late / too weak on small maps && too strong on big maps / etc. but the same should apply for all factions as much as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by phoenixzs:
-Devils should be better for what we pay.

The only thing Archdevils need is to increase the speed to 10...

Then the "teleport anywere on the battlefield" will make more sense...

About the Arch Devils, there are some very interesting comparisons with the other Tier 7 creatures. Take the Angels/Archangels for example. The Devils is more expensive than the Angels but this makes some sense, becouse they still have 1 speed and 21 maximum damage more than these girls which somewhat compensates -2 Defense and -14 Health. But let's see the upgrade: the Archangels recieve +4 Attack, +4 Defense, +2 Speed (!), +5 Damage, +40 Health and "Resurrection" for 1000 gold and 1 crystal. For 1000 gold and 1 sulfur (i.e. the same price) the Arch Devils recieve +33 Health, +4 Attack, +4 Defense and "Summon Pit Lord". No comment! If someone proves that "Summon Pit Lord" is better than "Resurrection" and all the other bonuses, then he'll have the rights to claim something like "logical genius" title. The Arch Devils are really too expensive for their performance in battle. Making them cheaper won't help, so it will be far better to improve their stats.
OK, enough off-topic.

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we both can only speculate about XL maps.

Well, you're right... almost. I think we can see some what will be the results on larger maps even now.

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Raiding tactics still benefit inferno town alot, even on larger maps.

The majority of your raiding tactics are very dependant on Hellfire, which does not correspond with its description (at the moment it is only Spell Power-related skill - if you have x Spell Power it doesn't matter if the skill will be activated by 1 Imp or 100 Arch Devils - the damage will be the same). This makes it unbalanced during the first 3-4 weeks and almost useless later. I think this skill is bugged and will be "fixed", so the efficiency of these rushes will be at least seriously reduced.

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-Actually some points you mentioned are problems of "those" races rather than infernos like the legions of skeletons.

True. But I don't deny it, do I? If it is problem for all the factions, then it is problem for Inferno too.

quote:

Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
The majority of your raiding tactics are very dependant on Hellfire, which does not correspond with its description (at the moment it is only Spell Power-related skill - if you have x Spell Power it doesn't matter if the skill will be activated by 1 Imp or 100 Arch Devils - the damage will be the same). This makes it unbalanced during the first 3-4 weeks and almost useless later.

Well at least you concede the point that Izzachar intended to make, and that was that Inferno has a strong early game without Deleb contrary to what everyone else was saying (Inferno too weak in early game). I don't know if this is "unbalanced" as you assert, since balance must be considered in view of all aspects of a faction, and certainly Inferno is not so gawdy otherwise that Hellfire renders them unbeatable.

It's always interesting to see what others consider balance to mean in this game.

naturally this isnt a good tactic at all for some maps but better for others. If it suits the map you can as I said take use of the opponents territory and if he attacks you you might get in a hellfire proc with lots of stacks with cerberus. if you have searing flames this is over 100 dmg. it doesnt take into account defence either. so it can kill some creatures. then you retreat and go back to town. Collect spells and army and start clearing your own territory. That way you can get the upper hand.

For maps with a lv 7 guardian as you said it certainly will not work. Still inferno does fine.

If inferno get dark magic they are very dangerous to all factions, except necro playing might maybe, because they can drain alot of mana and still use spells themselfs. This compensates alot for inferno creatures beeing "weaker" then other factions. A mass confusion then slow and mass vulnerability after that isnt so bad. A mass suffering + weakness + frenzy isnt to bad either. 100 imps drain about 25 mana I think and I heard the function is linear. So 250 imps (wich you have week 6-7)drains 60 mana. If you attack any hero with a scouting hero with as many imps as your main got mana then retreat. then summon them to your main and attack with him you can drain maybe 75-100 mana. For maps that usually extend beoynd week 6 and 7 the probability off you having enough imps to drain any factions mana increases and this makes inferno great on large maps aswell, at least In theory.

However if inferno dont get dark magic, and this happens about 10-20% off the times at lvs 15-20 you might be in alot more trouble vs some factions. I would really like to see dark magic switch propability with destrucive magic they are 8% and 10%. increasing the chances that inferno gets dark magic. Also maybe have a hero starting with this skill and a slow spell. Slow would be cool with infernos high initative units.

I agree that hellfire seems way off. I never noticed an noticeable increase in damage to hellfire. Maybe 5-10 points not that it matters when base dmg seem to be around 65 and with searing flames about 100. But also I think that having hellfire interact with a demon lords SP sounds foolish as they might have 2 SP at lv 20. It would be better if it interacted with lv and creature stack size.

anyway this is how it works NOW and that is what is important IMO. if something change in a patch you have to atapt at that point.

And I dont think you can say a race is unbalance on a map then I think its rather the map that is unbalanced towards a race.

I mean a map where you have 5 gold mines around your city would benefit haven the most.

A map with hordes of lv 1s would benefit necro the most

And a map where you start 3 days from your opponent would be in favour of inferno with the hero deleb as she could just wipe the opponent out week 1. If you ever would play warlords FFA with 8 players the player starting next to inferno with deleb can count on not surviving week 2.

I do not see any difference in using deleb like that or using haven in a gold map or necro in a map full with lv 1s.

I think that fans of the game have a big resposibility when map editor comes out to make balanced maps.

quote:

The majority of your raiding tactics are very dependant on Hellfire, which does not correspond with its description (at the moment it is only Spell Power-related skill - if you have x Spell Power it doesn't matter if the skill will be activated by 1 Imp or 100 Arch Devils - the damage will be the same). This makes it unbalanced during the first 3-4 weeks and almost useless later. I think this skill is bugged and will be "fixed", so the efficiency of these rushes will be at least seriously reduced.

how do you know that Hellfire is linked directly and only to Spellpower?

wouldn't demons be beter of with destructiv magic?

and necro's can consume corpes for mana so not a hard use for the imps
besides most necro's will have a huge army by then

I prefer Dark magic since the low SP makes destructive magic not very usefull. The abilities in that school is great though, stunning, armor damaging effect etc. Its a hard choice. depends on what faction you face what school you wanna use. vs sylvian I do prefer dark magic. And vs necros destructive can be good to have. Also destructive has searing flames wich is only good if you start with it, that said grawl.

Necros dont have consume corpse inferno does. Necros have mark of the necromancer though wich can give him mana but he must have dark magic to obtain it, and since you gate the imps you will have a second round of mana drained. After ahwile he might be able to get some mana but it might be to late for him to make good use off it.

yes necros get huge armies but I think there are good ways to counter it.

I also prefer Destructive magic because they have area effect and at the same time secondary effects with sub abilities and there are plenty of artifacts to improve the damage and spellpower

If you plan on attacking them earlyish then I prefer destructive magic, as it lets your hero contribute to the casualties..

If you dont fight early dark magic is a lot more essential.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishwarr:
If you plan on attacking them earlyish then I prefer destructive magic, as it lets your hero contribute to the casualties..

If you dont fight early dark magic is a lot more essential.

not really, because later on you get more and more spellpower.

On the difficulty setting question, I would like to chime in that I do believe 'hard' is the setting for which the factions are 'balanced'.

This is basically a 'vote' though so I figure I don't need to write a long essay to justify it.

The guide was an interesting read, thanks for writing it.

Pavel44 not really.. you have no idea how to play inferno no doubt.

I can't be bothered arguing it with you because some people are lost causes.

You said first aid tent is useless? far from it. It enables very few losses.

Destructive magic is only good with Inferno if you strike early, their spell power is too low if you let armies get too large.

Dark magic is more useful later.

For the record Pavel44 what are your great exploits with Inferno that makes you an expert with them?

Mass confusion against sylvian and haven should not be neglected, as they have no or little mana left they cant keep upp with dispelling. And you can safely gate in all your creatures without suffering near as much losses as you gate in.

Combine with mass slow and frenzy.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishwarr:
Pavel44 not really.. you have no idea how to play inferno no doubt.

I can't be bothered arguing it with you because some people are lost causes.

You said first aid tent is useless? far from it. It enables very few losses.

Destructive magic is only good with Inferno if you strike early, their spell power is too low if you let armies get too large.

Dark magic is more useful later.

For the record Pavel44 what are your great exploits with Inferno that makes you an expert with them?

yes, genius, no doubt I have no clue

And I am not one of those sad people that uses exploits, I can't stand exploits.