Oh btw and don't you think that in h5 the computer rushes you?

quote:

Originally posted by unreal_az:
One thing about Nival still comes back. An answer to a fan question
Q: Can 2 models/faction female/male be added to the game?
A: It takes over a month to create a model.
Period .

QF-Motha-Fing-E

Based on that "info" I did a calculation once how much time it would take some other developer to make their models, by nival standards. Found it:

Each model in any game consists of a number of polygons. Polygons are flat triangles that make up for it's surface. The more polygons, the less "edgy" the model appears. Now, Heroes 5 models consist of a couple of thausand polygons at best. Consider it takes "1 month" to make such a model. Now, take into account another game... let's say.. hmm.. Unreal Tournament 2007? The models in that game consist of 2.000.000 polygons (2 million). That means, if Midway/Epic game people worked as "hard" as nival, it would take them 83 years to complete a single model. This leads me to believe either:

a) UT2007 development has started ~4000 years ago.
b) Nival tries to sell transparent lies.

Decisions, decisions..

quote:

Originally posted by Trenox:
Maybe to a beginner it will look that on the surface but the games really are alot more deep (if you look into it )

I may be a noob to h5, but im hardly a begginner to real time strategy games & games in general. I moved to rpgs because i got sick of rts games not getting any better and then to turn based strategy when rome:tw was released

Games finished
strats:
- CnC & Tib Sun
- Red Alert 1 & 2
- Homeworld & Cataclism
- Civilisation 3 & IV
- Rome: TW
- Age of Mythology
- Sudden Strike 1 & 2
- Total Annihilation
- Dune 2000
fps:
- Half-Life 1 & 2
- F.E.A.R
- Thief DP, MA & DS(1,2&3)
- Blood
- Wolfenstien series
- Doom 1,2 & 3
- Ghost Recon & first expansion
- Red faction
- Quake 1,2,3 & 4
- Unreal1&2 & UT & UT:2004 (I play on godlike )
- AvP 1 & 2
rpgs:
- Diablo 1 & 2
- Final Fantasy 7 & 8
- Baldurs Gate 1 & 2
- Neverwinter Nights
- Nethack (I WISH , curse you and your dungeon yendor)
Its official, i have no life...

The list would be double the length if i could include everything that ive just played the heck out of but never actually bothered finishing as i played alot of games just multiplayer. I also have probley forgotten alot.

@Infiltrator
If you had ever made a model you would know that 2000000 polys for a model is a load of **** unless they applied mesh smoothing 500times. Texturing & Animateing a model takes 10times longer than creating the mesh. And a 1 month development time for a good high quality mesh sounds very believable to me... It would take 2weeks minimun for a game like heroes.

edit:
I should point out with most games you have about 4 or more programmers and then about 20 modelers & sound technicians and so on...

smith: if your experience mainly comes from completing singleplayer games then i think we are talking about way different things. You cant really compare playing casual SP and playing competitively online.

come back when you have played 500+ matches on battlenet - most games are not suitable for being played that much but blizzard have managed to make atleast two games that are, and thats quite a feat imo.

infiltrator: you must be kidding? you cant make a calculation like that - the amount of time spend on a model is NOT proportional with the amount of polygons... also making a model like that will not take too much time - it can be done on 1 day but concept art, texture, uwwmapping, rigging and animation takes wayy longer (as smith also correctly points out)

You guy's are still going on about Old Boy's post from month's ago? Why? At least that was a developer communicating with the fans. Or are you mad because they are in the russian forums not here?

smith - They said themselves in an interview that they consist of 2 mil. polys. I didn't say if they went to that state by smoothing them - Nival could have done the same thing. Heroes in H5 consists of dramatically less animations then UT ones (for example) - A few idle ones, cast spell, cheer, mourn, walk.. maybe a few more but that's pretty much it.

Trenox - As said above, Hero animations are not nearly as varied as in some other games.

A month is a pile of **it. To create a hero female model, which was the point, you have 3/4 of the work done in the first place - most of them are made out of the mounts (except the Inferno one) which eases the job dramatically. How hard could it be to create a concept of a female dungeon (dark elf sorceress), academy (oriental wizard) or any other female hero based on the town. I pretty much have an idea how they should look and anyone who is doing the model should as well (they are developing the game right?). So no, not a month, by a long shot. Use mount that's already available, make a female model and replace the male one and add half a dozen animations.

Yes, we know it doesn't really take 1 month, we know it's easy. And what's more, in 1.0 some of the heroes did have female models...

What is your actual point? Your using information that is months old to bash Nival. Alright so you don't think they should be picked. Point taken.

This guy has said many idiotic and disrespectful things that people are bound to remember them.

infiltrator: you seriously have no idea what you are talking about. The 2 million poly models you are refering to are highres models used to generate normalmaps for the lowpoly characters ingame (probably around 50k polys).

and no Nival couldnt just apply meshsmooth on their ingame content. you need to model your content in a way different fashion to support that.

you are comparing apples and oranges. the content on unreal is made with a complete different scope and technique than in heroes.

The thing you fail to realize is Nival's way to deal with problems.
That is the most impertinent response on a problem a fan reported to a dev I have ever seen.
That is the whole politics regarding Nival and the responses to the fans. You should have seen the fight about the battlefield.

One more thing what Infiltrator said about the models is right Nival said that with the 2 milion part in a interview somewhere. I think on CH. If I find the post I'll link it here just to show how people overestimate Nival as a developer.
@Elementalist your post sounds like a frame war that has nothing to do with the subject but with a problem you have to the user.
The things he says here are true and I can back him up.

Also as a sidenote in 1.0 biara's model was used with the sucubi-specialist hero (can't recall her name) but Nival decided it was a bug and fixed it up...

quote:

Originally posted by Trenox:
infiltrator: you seriously have no idea what you are talking about. The 2 million poly models you are refering to are highres models used to generate normalmaps for the lowpoly characters ingame (probably around 50k polys).

and no Nival couldnt just apply meshsmooth on their ingame content. you need to model your content in a way different fashion to support that.

you are comparing apples and oranges. the content on unreal is made with a complete different scope and technique than in heroes.

You still aren't grasping what I'm trying to say. Forget all about UT for a second. I don't care how many polys are used, and how many do we decect once they undergo mapping. They said 2 mil, not me, so argue with them.

Now tell me - do you seriously believe, that making one single female model takes a month. Remember that they have most of the work done since they use the same mount. Also, remember the animations - Idle, Idle 2, Cast Spell, Cast Spell 2, Mourn, Cheer, Walk. That is SEVEN anims. Any more? I don't think so, maybe I missed 1 or 2.

@unreal_az
You are right, I shouldn't talk this way. My point was that he does speak for Nival and that is one minus for the company.

Before I go back to work I ommitted one thing
Diablo II: In the Guiness Book of World Records for the 1 million flying off in shelves in 5-10 days. Unknown for preorders. As it stands now Diablo II has sold over 15 million copies. You do my math for all three of them, that's pretty close to 50 million. It might sound like I'm kissing Blizzards ass but thay had the foresight to think of quality rather than the cash spigot. See this is one thign you're not catching here. If you make money it'll keep the investors happy.

@Elementalist oh.. you were talking about oldboy .
I understood something else .

quote:

Originally posted by unreal_az:
One thing about Nival still comes back. An answer to a fan question
Q: Can 2 models/faction female/male be added to the game?
A: It takes over a month to create a model.
Period .

This pretty much falls into the same category as "quality over quantity."
They are both basically saying "we can't be bothered to do it, so here is an excuse to get us out of it."

Possibly the worst excuse they could have come up with, if we exclude an alien invasion.

quote:

Originally posted by Trenox:
smith: if your experience mainly comes from completing singleplayer games then i think we are talking about way different things. You cant really compare playing casual SP and playing competitively online.

Well then you've missed the whole bloody point, because blizzard dont develop people & Because how good someone is, or how much time they wish to apply to beating other players at a game and comming up with tactics for beating others has nothing to do with the game itself. You can take any simple game and come up with a million different strategies for playing other people at it. E.g. Which game has more potential for strategic depth out of chess or starcraft... starcraft does, because it has more units, more abilities & more statistics to take into consideration... but which game actually has more strategies, it is of course chess because its easier to play, more played, perfectly balanced and has been around for generations. In chess rush tactics only work against newbs that dont know how to counter a three move check mate.

Its the people that have made starcraft a competative success, if you take away the people what do you have left, nothing but a ****ty boring campaign, pathetic AI & some cool cinimatics.

I just love the way its okay for a blizzard fans who love to **** on about the AI & campaign in heroes or any other game yet they completely ignor it when it come to talking about blizzard games instead going on about how supposedly good other players are, and what other players do... well guess what, i dont give a ****ing ****e about other players & their online egos, i like playing single player and only play multiplayer with mates via lan.

If you want a good game with actuall decent strategic depth and tactics than the only game to play is TA. When i play lan of TA it usually ends up me versus the rest just to keep the game fair.

@P42DM-AC
Diablo II has not sold 15 million copies... see the statistics i posted on the previous page. The diablo series has only sold 17million in total and 11million of those are diablo 1. 3million are d2 and the other 3million are its expansion. Thats the reason why there is no d3, and d1 has only sold so much because it comes bundled with just about everything.
If d2 had sold 15 million copies that would make it the 2nd best selling game of all time just 1 behindthe sims.

Bess selling games
# The Sims (16 million)[3]
# StarCraft (9.5 million, includes StarCraft: Brood War)[1]
# Half-Life (8 million)[2]
# World of Warcraft (7.5 million customers worldwide)[5]
# Myst (6 million)[4]
# The Sims 2 (4.5 million)[3]
# The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (4 million, including Xbox release)[6]
# RollerCoaster Tycoon (4 million for the original in North America alone)[7]
# Half-Life 2 (4 million)[8]
# Populous (4 million)[9]

Type in Diablo II on Wikipedia, the stats are somewhere there.

But let's get back to the core thing. Nival skirting responsibility.

Not going to argue those facts. I overlooked those. Those are correct according to what I've got.

They must LOVE the Vodka. Stolylicha anyone or however it's spelled.

Like I said they must want money and Ubisoft apparently doesn't want ot please it's shareholders anymore than it does. With the alien invasion, are we counting rectal probing or just like alien abductions too?

quote:

Originally posted by P42DM-AC:
Type in Diablo II on Wikipedia, the stats are somewhere there.

Those stats are from wiki

edit:
click

infiltrator: yes i believe that it probably takes one month to do a full character (not a model) from scratch. I am not trying to defend some specific statement from nival but i just wanted to correct those errors in your previous statements.

smith: damn take it easy man no need to talk so much trash.
iam not defending starcraft and warcraft just so i can attack heroes (i love all those games). Your assuming that i hate heroes just because i like starcraft but i never said anything about that. Each game has different qualities. Heroes is a nice casual game and starcraft is less casual but a very good competitive game and not as void of strategy that you were implying.
I flat out disagree that any game could be made into a competitive game by the fans. Only very few games has that potential imo and it takes some very specific design decisions to accomodate that. Something thats getting quite rare in these "casual" times .
Most rts games are about teching to the strongest unit and just build that same powerunit over and over. Starcraft showed another way for rts and warcraft is refining that. If you cant see it and/or just choose to disagree with me because you have some negative bias towards blizzard or its fans then i guess i cant change your mind.