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View Full Version : Excuse me while I pull another MNG (Iraq stuff)



Thoramir
04-17-2004, 02:50 PM
Ok, so I was wrong, I decided to provide some of my thoughts as well. And for Livoff's sake (for now) I'll try to be civil about it.

This is the kind of thing that ****es me off. You've got people all over the place (that's not a comment on numbers) saying that Iraq never had WMD (which is a loaded term in and of itself, but whatever). Ok, fine maybe, argue that. But how the hell are we ever supposed to find out what the heck is (or rather was) there when you have all this stuff smuggled into Europe? I know this isn't like finding a nuclear weapon on anything, but this is more than just junk for the Osirak reactor. There are rocket engines involved. None of this in and of itself proves anything but I don't know how people get away with assuming there was nothing worth going on. The article seeks to assure us this stuff probably just ended up there through the actions of scrap merchants and not through some sort of malicious intent. On the other hand, ElBaradei doesn't want the names of countries named. And why not? Will it embarrass them? I mean, if it was just some big accident that this stuff ended up in Europe in the first place what is there to hide? I mean on some fundamental level, stuff like this should make even MNG wonder. This isn't remotely the only instance of suspicious findings like this either. What do you guys think when you see these kind of reports, or have you not seen them? I mean sometimes you guys seem so eager to win arguments (which I don't really give a **** about) that you make arrogance look like a bigger crime than genocide. (Self edit: I was going to expound a little on that last statement, but for the sake of sound like some stuffy intellectual I'll restrain myself.) What difference does winning an argument make if it's completely tangental to the truth? (Edit: Again, restraint) I don't want to win an argument I want to know what was happening in Iraq between 1991 and 2003, because it sure as hell wasn't kosher. What could be more anti-intellectual than showing the lack of concern some of these guys show for what was really going on?

I sincerely hope you're happy Livoff, don't expect it for too long if some of these guys continue to act like. . . well . . . themselves.



Iraqi Nuclear Gear Found in Europe

By Colum Lynch
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, April 15, 2004; Page A22


UNITED NATIONS, April 14 -- Large amounts of nuclear-related equipment, some of it contaminated, and a small number of missile engines have been smuggled out of Iraq for recycling in European scrap yards, according to the head of the United Nations' nuclear watchdog and other U.N. diplomats.



Mohammed ElBaradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, warned the U.N. Security Council in a letter that U.N. satellite photos have detected "the extensive removal of equipment and, in some instances, removal of entire buildings" from sites that had been subject to U.N. monitoring before the U.S.-led war against Iraq.

ElBaradei said an IAEA investigation "indicates that large quantities of scrap, some of it contaminated, have been transferred out of Iraq, from sites monitored by the IAEA." He said that he has informed the United States about the discovery and is awaiting "clarification."

After the 1991 Persian Gulf War, U.N. inspectors discovered, inventoried and destroyed most of the equipment used in Iraq's nuclear weapons program. But they left large amounts of nuclear equipment and facilities in Iraq intact and "under seal," including debris from the Osirak reactor that was bombed by Israel in 1981. That debris and the buildings are radioactively contaminated.

The U.N. nuclear agency has found no evidence yet that the exported materials are being sold to arms dealers or to countries suspected of developing nuclear weapons. But ElBaradei voiced concern that the loss of the materials could pose a proliferation threat and could complicate efforts to reach a conclusive assessment of the history of Iraq's nuclear program.

"It is not clear whether the removal of these items has been the result of looting activities in the aftermath of the recent war in Iraq, or as part of systematic efforts" to clean up contaminated nuclear sites in Iraq, ElBaradei wrote. "In any event these activities may have a significant impact on the agency's continuity of knowledge of Iraq's remaining nuclear-related capabilities and raise concern with regards to the proliferation risk associated with dual use material and equipment disappearing to unknown destinations."

Richard Grenell, a spokesman for the U.S. mission to the United Nations, said, "We have seen the reports and are obviously concerned, and as we told the IAEA we are looking into the matter."

ElBaradei's letter is dated April 11 and was circulated privately this week among members of the Security Council.

Evidence of the illicit import of nuclear-related material surfaced in January after a small quantity of "yellowcake" uranium oxide was discovered in a shipment of scrap metal at Rotterdam's harbor. The company that purchased the shipment, Jewometaal, detected radioactive material in the container and informed the Dutch government, according to the Associated Press. A spokesman for the company told the news agency that a Jordanian scrap dealer who sent the shipment believed the yellowcake came from Iraq.

ElBaradei did not identify the European countries where the materials were discovered. But U.N. and European officials confirmed that IAEA inspectors traveled to Jewometaal's scrap yard to run tests on the yellowcake. The search turned up missile engines and vessels used in fermentation processes that were subject to U.N. monitoring. The U.N. Monitoring Verification and Inspection Commission informed the council about the finds in a letter, according to diplomats. The IAEA, meanwhile, ordered up satellite images to assess conditions at Iraq's former nuclear weapons sites. A senior U.N. official said they discovered that two buildings at one former site had vanished and that several scrap piles contained weapons-related materials were also missing. "In Europe, stainless steel goes for $1,500 a ton," the official said. "And that is worth transporting for the purpose of recycling."

http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Thoramir/Troutsig2.jpg
Yeeeeaaaaarrrrgggghhhh!

[This message was edited by Thoramir on Sat April 17 2004 at 02:03 PM.]

Thoramir
04-17-2004, 02:50 PM
Ok, so I was wrong, I decided to provide some of my thoughts as well. And for Livoff's sake (for now) I'll try to be civil about it.

This is the kind of thing that ****es me off. You've got people all over the place (that's not a comment on numbers) saying that Iraq never had WMD (which is a loaded term in and of itself, but whatever). Ok, fine maybe, argue that. But how the hell are we ever supposed to find out what the heck is (or rather was) there when you have all this stuff smuggled into Europe? I know this isn't like finding a nuclear weapon on anything, but this is more than just junk for the Osirak reactor. There are rocket engines involved. None of this in and of itself proves anything but I don't know how people get away with assuming there was nothing worth going on. The article seeks to assure us this stuff probably just ended up there through the actions of scrap merchants and not through some sort of malicious intent. On the other hand, ElBaradei doesn't want the names of countries named. And why not? Will it embarrass them? I mean, if it was just some big accident that this stuff ended up in Europe in the first place what is there to hide? I mean on some fundamental level, stuff like this should make even MNG wonder. This isn't remotely the only instance of suspicious findings like this either. What do you guys think when you see these kind of reports, or have you not seen them? I mean sometimes you guys seem so eager to win arguments (which I don't really give a **** about) that you make arrogance look like a bigger crime than genocide. (Self edit: I was going to expound a little on that last statement, but for the sake of sound like some stuffy intellectual I'll restrain myself.) What difference does winning an argument make if it's completely tangental to the truth? (Edit: Again, restraint) I don't want to win an argument I want to know what was happening in Iraq between 1991 and 2003, because it sure as hell wasn't kosher. What could be more anti-intellectual than showing the lack of concern some of these guys show for what was really going on?

I sincerely hope you're happy Livoff, don't expect it for too long if some of these guys continue to act like. . . well . . . themselves.



Iraqi Nuclear Gear Found in Europe

By Colum Lynch
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, April 15, 2004; Page A22


UNITED NATIONS, April 14 -- Large amounts of nuclear-related equipment, some of it contaminated, and a small number of missile engines have been smuggled out of Iraq for recycling in European scrap yards, according to the head of the United Nations' nuclear watchdog and other U.N. diplomats.



Mohammed ElBaradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, warned the U.N. Security Council in a letter that U.N. satellite photos have detected "the extensive removal of equipment and, in some instances, removal of entire buildings" from sites that had been subject to U.N. monitoring before the U.S.-led war against Iraq.

ElBaradei said an IAEA investigation "indicates that large quantities of scrap, some of it contaminated, have been transferred out of Iraq, from sites monitored by the IAEA." He said that he has informed the United States about the discovery and is awaiting "clarification."

After the 1991 Persian Gulf War, U.N. inspectors discovered, inventoried and destroyed most of the equipment used in Iraq's nuclear weapons program. But they left large amounts of nuclear equipment and facilities in Iraq intact and "under seal," including debris from the Osirak reactor that was bombed by Israel in 1981. That debris and the buildings are radioactively contaminated.

The U.N. nuclear agency has found no evidence yet that the exported materials are being sold to arms dealers or to countries suspected of developing nuclear weapons. But ElBaradei voiced concern that the loss of the materials could pose a proliferation threat and could complicate efforts to reach a conclusive assessment of the history of Iraq's nuclear program.

"It is not clear whether the removal of these items has been the result of looting activities in the aftermath of the recent war in Iraq, or as part of systematic efforts" to clean up contaminated nuclear sites in Iraq, ElBaradei wrote. "In any event these activities may have a significant impact on the agency's continuity of knowledge of Iraq's remaining nuclear-related capabilities and raise concern with regards to the proliferation risk associated with dual use material and equipment disappearing to unknown destinations."

Richard Grenell, a spokesman for the U.S. mission to the United Nations, said, "We have seen the reports and are obviously concerned, and as we told the IAEA we are looking into the matter."

ElBaradei's letter is dated April 11 and was circulated privately this week among members of the Security Council.

Evidence of the illicit import of nuclear-related material surfaced in January after a small quantity of "yellowcake" uranium oxide was discovered in a shipment of scrap metal at Rotterdam's harbor. The company that purchased the shipment, Jewometaal, detected radioactive material in the container and informed the Dutch government, according to the Associated Press. A spokesman for the company told the news agency that a Jordanian scrap dealer who sent the shipment believed the yellowcake came from Iraq.

ElBaradei did not identify the European countries where the materials were discovered. But U.N. and European officials confirmed that IAEA inspectors traveled to Jewometaal's scrap yard to run tests on the yellowcake. The search turned up missile engines and vessels used in fermentation processes that were subject to U.N. monitoring. The U.N. Monitoring Verification and Inspection Commission informed the council about the finds in a letter, according to diplomats. The IAEA, meanwhile, ordered up satellite images to assess conditions at Iraq's former nuclear weapons sites. A senior U.N. official said they discovered that two buildings at one former site had vanished and that several scrap piles contained weapons-related materials were also missing. "In Europe, stainless steel goes for $1,500 a ton," the official said. "And that is worth transporting for the purpose of recycling."

http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Thoramir/Troutsig2.jpg
Yeeeeaaaaarrrrgggghhhh!

[This message was edited by Thoramir on Sat April 17 2004 at 02:03 PM.]

Livoff
04-17-2004, 04:36 PM
Your restraining attitude is certainly becoming you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . I'm on a tight schedule so I will return to this as I get some time on my hands...

Hornet57
04-17-2004, 07:22 PM
Veeeeerrry Interesting Thor

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

Demon_Mustang
04-17-2004, 09:56 PM
Wait wait wait a second, stop the presses!

Are you suggesting that some stuff got out of Iraq without us knowing it??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

OMG, I was assured and guaranteed by MNG, Gandalf, cow, and several other armchair experts that there is no possible way that anything could have gone under our nose what-so-ever. But it's ok, as long as it's not the "smoking gun" CNN won't find this interesting enough to report it. That must mean that it's not credible, since CNN and BBC doesn't jump all over it.

So no excitement here guys, nothing to see here, keep it moving. It's ok, this, along with them being able to bury full-sized fighters in the sand without our knowledge does not imply a thing, so don't worry guys, we can maintain our status quo of hating Bush and not accepting any possibility of Saddam Hussein doing any wrong.

I'm so relieved. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

MDS_Geist
04-17-2004, 11:25 PM
Lovely. Recycling potentially radioactively contaminated materials. That's brilliant.

Of greater concern is the security factor that entire buildings and piles of material (that should be inventoried and guarded) can simply vanish. I'm all for free enterprise, but that's a bit ridiculous.

The Right to command is bought with Duty, the Privilege of rank is Service.

Demon_Mustang
04-17-2004, 11:46 PM
No no Geist, we have to worry about the "Depleted Uranium dust" that evil ol America is putting into these poor poor countries. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Hornet57
04-18-2004, 05:15 AM
And the Europeans are complaining about the Depleated Uraniam in our bombs causing all the birth defects and such.

When the Europeans start to glow in the dark at least they will now know why.

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg