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View Full Version : Could ACIV Black Flag Naval combat be worse than AC3?



luckyto
08-20-2013, 10:05 PM
AC3's ship battles were fantastic. I loved them, and they worked. As a player, you concerned yourself with the tilt of the waves and how to take or outposition other ships to get in range of your guns. You used either heavy shot to outright sink it, or your chainlink to take out masts and ballasts and cripple it to a hault.

After seeing Gamescon, I'm actually a bit worried. Has it become over-complicated? Or more likely, has it become overpowered? With cannon's that arch over waves, do waves even matter anymore? With mortars that rain down hell and brimstone, do cannons even matter?

What I saw was not naval maneouvering, or captaining to get the perfect shot, or the hustled rush to duck oncoming fire; what I saw was a shooter ... it was more like tank warfare and it was simply a matter of cycling through the variety of guns available to me.

Anybody else concerned?

LoyalACFan
08-20-2013, 10:07 PM
Honestly I wasn't paying very close attention, but this demo looked like it was set in like Sequence 1 or 2, meaning the naval enemies were pretty pathetic. When you're going toe to toe with a Man o' War, I imagine things will be different.

Also, you have limited shots for your mortar and certain cannonballs, so... there's that.

adventurewomen
08-20-2013, 10:10 PM
No I'm not concerned about Navel combat, I'm just waiting to play AC4. No need to worry. :)

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2013, 10:14 PM
If I had to pick something that I am LEAST worried about regarding ACIV, it would probably be the naval combat. From all the footage we've seen, it looks way better, graphically, and gameplay wise.

And AC3's naval combat wasn't that hard. I mean, you could just brace and all the cannonballs would magically avoid hitting your hull. However, bracing in this game seems to be more for protecting crew members, not the health of the ship. In all the footage we have seen, the cannonballs have all hit the jackdaw, even during a brace.

luckyto
08-20-2013, 10:14 PM
We know that you have to unlock mortars from an earlier demo, so this is at least a good way into the game. AC3's naval combat worked on it's simplicity in some ways. The waves along with the size and position of your foes was all you needed to create endless variety. I've tackled all of those missions dozens of times trying different ways. It worked. It felt good and fast-paced. This simply looks like going through the motions with OP weapons.

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2013, 10:18 PM
We know that you have to unlock mortars from an earlier demo, so this is at least a good way into the game. AC3's naval combat worked on it's simplicity in some ways. The waves along with the size and position of your foes was all you needed to create endless variety. I've tackled all of those missions dozens of times trying different ways. It worked. It felt good and fast-paced. This simply looks like going through the motions with OP weapons.

You could also use the swivel guns through the waves in AC3. And from the gamescom demo, it that is no longer the case. Also the weapons are definitely not OP. in the 13 min demo, when Edward is attacking that ship with the target, the frigate takes SEVERAL volleys of round shot, 3 or 4 weak point swivel shots, and one or two heavy shots. In AC3, the frigates would go down in two well placed round shot volleys.

If anything, the guns in AC3 were OP! You could take down a gunboat with one swivel shot! AND...( I keep thinking of more things to add) all of the shots fired from enemy ships, excluding manowars, would take a second delay before actually being launched at you. Like, the ship would fire, but the cannonballs would wait a sec before launching. From the footage we have seen so far, this does not happen in AC4.

Jexx21
08-20-2013, 10:21 PM
you're forgetting that in demos like these the players are usually put on godmode..

Farlander1991
08-20-2013, 10:22 PM
AC3 also had the useless grapeshot (probably a left over from the time when all ships could be boarded in the missions, as they stated in the interviews around the time of initial announcement), which is now useful in AC4 (to wither out the enemy crew members). Also, in AC3 when you got the heavy shots, the normal cannonballs pretty much became useless. I don't think AC4 has got heavy shots.

The mortar, if AC3 fort fight in one of the missions is any reference, is more effective against static targets (or huge groups of ships), so it's got a very situational use. And the arch so far seems to be effective only during normal waves, it doesn't look like it's going to be much of an advantage in stormy weather (where waves in AC3 were actually a big deal).

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2013, 10:22 PM
you're forgetting that in demos like these the players are usually put on godmode..

Nah. The ship takes damage when shot in all the demos. The health meter depletes

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2013, 10:24 PM
AC3 also had the useless grapeshot (probably a left over from the time when all ships could be boarded in the missions, as they stated in the interviews around the time of initial announcement), which is now useful in AC4 (to wither out the enemy crew members). Also, in AC3 when you got the heavy shots, the normal cannonballs pretty much became useless. I don't think AC4 has got heavy shots.

The mortar, if AC3 fort fight in one of the missions is any reference, is more effective against static targets (or huge groups of ships), so it's got a very situational use. And the arch so far seems to be effective only during normal waves, it doesn't look like it's going to be much of an advantage in stormy weather (where waves in AC3 were actually a big deal).
AC4 has heavy shot...I also found the grapeshot to be quite useful when in close range. AC4 doesn't have graphsot though, so you could be right in saying it was not a good idea

But I agree with the point you are making :)

fightinTXaggie
08-20-2013, 10:26 PM
We know that you have to unlock mortars from an earlier demo, so this is at least a good way into the game. AC3's naval combat worked on it's simplicity in some ways. The waves along with the size and position of your foes was all you needed to create endless variety. I've tackled all of those missions dozens of times trying different ways. It worked. It felt good and fast-paced. This simply looks like going through the motions with OP weapons.

Correction. We know you can upgrade the mortars based on the earlier demo. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that the iron reinforced mortar we saw was an upgraded version of either a starting weapon or very early mission weapon (maybe the objective is to teach new players how and where to upgrade the ship).

Farlander1991
08-20-2013, 10:29 PM
AC4 has heavy shot

Hm. I hope they at least balance it out by adding long(er) reloads.


.I also found the grapeshot to be quite useful when in close range.

I could never find a use for grape shot in AC3 :/ Couldn't get it to help me open the weak spots even once (even though that's the weakest shot... though, maybe that's why weak spots weren't opening), and if I wanted damage, I'd switch to normal cannon at least (even at close range, normal cannon was much more effective than grape shots).


AC4 doesn't have graphsot though, so you could be right in saying it was not a good idea

Really? Didn't they say the did, though? (I might be confusing it with other pirate Action/RPGs though, where grapeshot is used to lower the enemy ships' crewmember number, like Sea Dogs/Age of Pirates/Pirates of the Caribbean).

pacmanate
08-20-2013, 10:29 PM
I've got to that point now where I am sick of seeing naval....

I don't know if you guys remember me saying the same thing last year. They showed off Naval 2-3 times. First time it was cool, second time was like "okay", 3rd time was "ffs I know". I am now getting that "over showing" feel from Naval that happened to me during E3.

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2013, 10:30 PM
I've got to that point now where I am sick of seeing naval....

I don't know if you guys remember me saying the same thing last year. They showed off Naval 2-3 times. First time it was cool, second time was like "okay", 3rd time was "ffs I know". I am now getting that "over showing" feel from Naval that happened to me during E3.

If you are sick of naval then how are you going to play the game? Lol

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2013, 10:31 PM
Hm. I hope they at least balance it out by adding long(er) reloads.



I could never find a use for grape shot in AC3 :/ Couldn't get it to help me open the weak spots even once (even though that's the weakest shot... though, maybe that's why weak spots weren't opening), and if I wanted damage, I'd switch to normal cannon at least (even at close range, normal cannon was much more effective than grape shots).



Really? Didn't they say the did, though? (I might be confusing it with other pirate Action/RPGs though, where grapeshot is used to lower the enemy ships' crewmember number, like Sea Dogs/Age of Pirates/Pirates of the Caribbean).

I don't think it is in. I'm pretty sure it is just round shot, chain shot, and heavy shot. They are simplifying it.

Farlander1991
08-20-2013, 10:35 PM
I don't think it is in. I'm pretty sure it is just round shot, chain shot, and heavy shot. They are simplifying it.

I've found this (http://orcz.com/Assassin's_Creed_4:_Black_Flag:_Heavy_Shot)

So I guess the Heavy Shot in AC4 is an upgraded version of the Grapeshot, but not the overpowered heavy cannonballs from AC3.

pacmanate
08-20-2013, 10:36 PM
If you are sick of naval then how are you going to play the game? Lol


I've got to that point now where I am sick of seeing naval....


SEEING. I never said I don't like it. It's just boring to watch after the 3rd time.

VitaminsXYZ
08-20-2013, 10:40 PM
If I had to pick something that I am LEAST worried about regarding ACIV, it would probably be the naval combat. From all the footage we've seen, it looks way better, graphically, and gameplay wise.

And AC3's naval combat wasn't that hard. I mean, you could just brace and all the cannonballs would magically avoid hitting your hull. However, bracing in this game seems to be more for protecting crew members, not the health of the ship. In all the footage we have seen, the cannonballs have all hit the jackdaw, even during a brace.

Actually, I remember that you still took damage in AC3 even if you braced, it was just reduced since your crew was protected. Add on all the upgrades you could get and it minimizes the damage even more, but the cannonballs could still hit your hull.

luckyto
08-20-2013, 10:40 PM
Correction. We know you can upgrade the mortars based on the earlier demo. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that the iron reinforced mortar we saw was an upgraded version of either a starting weapon or very early mission weapon (maybe the objective is to teach new players how and where to upgrade the ship).

Good catch. That's true.

Grape shot was very useful for several small ships up close. Personally, my favorite was to angle the chainshot to take out masts. There was a degree of skill to it. Now it seems, you simply have to deal enough damage and the sails go down.

I am concerned. I've seen Ubisoft do this too many times, where they take a good system and add an element or two, and it makes the game unbalanced. They took AC2 and added other Assassin's and chainkilling, and the result was the easiest cake walk most dull thing ever. Then they took Borgia Towers and tried to tweak them, and we ended up with Den Defense. They have this habit of overcomplicating gaming systems to "outdo" the previously title, and thus losing the magic associated with the system to begin with.

This demo plays more like a tank warfare game than the the naval combat we played in AC3. I liked the naval combat in AC3. And adding too many elements to it has as much chance to make it worse, than make it better. And while logically, ducking my crew doesn't make sense that it would reduce hull damage; it "felt" real and exciting. Having to hit the waves at just the right angle for a clean shot was fun, more fun than simply angling my cannons to go over them.

I'll just have to wait and see. Wondered what other's thought.

Farlander1991
08-20-2013, 10:43 PM
I liked the naval combat in AC3

Well, truth be told, as much as I liked AC3's naval combat, and as cool as it works for a pretty small side activities (a dozen short missions that last two-to-four minutes and like half a dozen of long ones in the main and side Templar campaign), the system as it is in AC3 wouldn't sustain a whole (or, well, half of) the game.

Dutchman141
08-21-2013, 12:27 AM
Well, truth be told, as much as I liked AC3's naval combat, and as cool as it works for a pretty small side activities (a dozen short missions that last two-to-four minutes and like half a dozen of long ones in the main and side Templar campaign), the system as it is in AC3 wouldn't sustain a whole (or, well, half of) the game.

I agree with you.
I think though that in AC4 the naval experience will be much broader, as you allready said, the missions in AC3 were only so long plus you couldn't just sail around and do other things then what was scripted like sink this ship or protect that one. The freeplay and upgrade factors in AC4 will be much wider and will add to a whole broader navel experience I think.

BTW
I liked the gamescom vid, the sea battle looked much more chaotic then in AC3, seabattles in that age tended to get get pretty chaotic with generaly slow ships and a lot of damage after each hit, ropes, sails and chuncks of wood flying around etc.

Just my opinion though

Wolfmeister1010
08-21-2013, 12:49 AM
I am also very happy with how the ship damage and explosions turned out. It seemed watered down in previous demos, and now it seems as explosive and epic as it was in the e3 demo. Also,mother sails no longer magically disappear!

dxsxhxcx
08-21-2013, 01:16 AM
I am also very happy with how the ship damage and explosions turned out. It seemed watered down in previous demos, and now it seems as explosive and epic as it was in the e3 demo. Also,mother sails no longer magically disappear!

but what seems to be the current spanish flag (instead of the one used during that time according to a thread made recently that if I find I'll post here) is still there...

Wolfmeister1010
08-21-2013, 01:19 AM
but what seems to be the current spanish flag (instead of the one used during that time according to a thread made recently that if I find I'll post here) is still there...

...oh. Well I don't care about that. As long as the gameplay is good, the story is good, and the graphics are up to par, then I couldn't care less about historical accuracy

LoyalACFan
08-21-2013, 04:11 AM
SEEING. I never said I don't like it. It's just boring to watch after the 3rd time.

Same. I was bored to death by the naval demos last year, but I wound up loving it in-game. It's just one of those things that are fun to play, but not to watch.

pacmanate
08-21-2013, 09:14 AM
Same. I was bored to death by the naval demos last year, but I wound up loving it in-game. It's just one of those things that are fun to play, but not to watch.

Yup. The fact that its not new anymore and they keep showing it is a bit annoying, granted it is a "pirate" game so no getting out of that.

shobhit7777777
08-21-2013, 10:56 AM
Possible but improbable

Also depends on what you like/dislike

luckyto
08-21-2013, 04:09 PM
I am also very happy with how the ship damage and explosions turned out. It seemed watered down in previous demos, and now it seems as explosive and epic as it was in the e3 demo. Also,mother sails no longer magically disappear!

The damage looks sharp!