PDA

View Full Version : Game realism



XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 01:43 PM
*Sorry about my English*

You are probably sick of all of those "what is your favourite weapon" threads, well so am I...

They talk about the weapons in Ravenshield as if they are like that in real life...

As a member of the German Bundeswehr (armed border police), I can give you more information than you could ever dream of about how these weapons are to fire...

I have used the PSG-1, MP5A4 and MP7 PDW, as well as the G36 in real life... If you are using Ravenshield to compare weapons, DON'T! It is designed so that all weapons have some downside, and all recoil so much, so the game isn't too unbalanced. If you look at the stats of Dragunov-vs those of the PSG-1, It will obviously not make the Dragunov less than half as accurate as the PSG-1, as this would destroy the balance (even though the Dragunov is 2MOA <less than half as accurate> and the PSG1 is sub-1MOA at below 600m...

The G36 is extremely light, and has very light recoil even during full auto (hence it is extremely easy to control). I don't want to start with the MP5A4, as you can see for yourself: http://www.hkpro.com/video/MP5.mov

A useful source of information regarding the G36 (stadart varient) is http://www.hkpro.com/G36.htm

It includes a video of the gun firing, and reinforces the weight issue... There is a reason why the US Army will soon scrap the M16 and replace it with the XM8 (based upon the G36) http://sf1000.registeredsite.com/~user880686/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=005661

I am sure they will choose a more tasteful colour as well!




Message Edited on 12/06/0312:51PM by teebus

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 01:43 PM
*Sorry about my English*

You are probably sick of all of those "what is your favourite weapon" threads, well so am I...

They talk about the weapons in Ravenshield as if they are like that in real life...

As a member of the German Bundeswehr (armed border police), I can give you more information than you could ever dream of about how these weapons are to fire...

I have used the PSG-1, MP5A4 and MP7 PDW, as well as the G36 in real life... If you are using Ravenshield to compare weapons, DON'T! It is designed so that all weapons have some downside, and all recoil so much, so the game isn't too unbalanced. If you look at the stats of Dragunov-vs those of the PSG-1, It will obviously not make the Dragunov less than half as accurate as the PSG-1, as this would destroy the balance (even though the Dragunov is 2MOA <less than half as accurate> and the PSG1 is sub-1MOA at below 600m...

The G36 is extremely light, and has very light recoil even during full auto (hence it is extremely easy to control). I don't want to start with the MP5A4, as you can see for yourself: http://www.hkpro.com/video/MP5.mov

A useful source of information regarding the G36 (stadart varient) is http://www.hkpro.com/G36.htm

It includes a video of the gun firing, and reinforces the weight issue... There is a reason why the US Army will soon scrap the M16 and replace it with the XM8 (based upon the G36) http://sf1000.registeredsite.com/~user880686/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=005661

I am sure they will choose a more tasteful colour as well!




Message Edited on 12/06/0312:51PM by teebus

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 05:06 PM
i'm with you on that one /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Even though i've only fired an MP5, an Uzi, M9 and 1911, so don't have any real, real-life experiance (read as limited experiance). It's a game and the guns are balanced. As for those who say the G36 and the SA80 shouldn't have built in scopes, tough cheese, they do irl, though you can get configurations of the SA80 with iron sights, a team of special ops people would probably choose the weapons that give them the most advantages /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"Firepower is usually definded as the number of rounds sent down range, 1000 misses is not firepower, one kill is."

XyZspineZyX
12-06-2003, 10:53 PM
Yea but putting a scope on an m16 doesnt activate a locking mechanism in the barrel to prevent a silencer from being attatched http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think if they let you do stuff like that it would improve realism as well as balance.

I think the XM8 looks like every prototype I've ever seen, better than most actualy. Look at prototypes for the OICW, the G36, and hell ANY Steyr weapon.

On-topic though I agree, the balance aspect of RvS is what I love most about it and if the weapons were perfectly accurate to real life it would be a whole different game.

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 02:16 AM
i agree that multiple attachments should be allowed (meant to put that into the first post >.< ), and the gas mask should be standard kit, just to save a slot in the loadout, but also incase the x-rays have little surprises of their own [in my opinion at least, have no training to back it up, but it would make me feel a little safer if i was in that situation). Considering RvS is suposed to be the most realistic sim of this type, they guns should be different and more like their real world counter parts. but agin thats just my opinion

"Firepower is usually definded as the number of rounds sent down range, 1000 misses is not firepower, one kill is."

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2003, 12:12 PM
If *cough* someone would make a RVS-like mod for UT2004, couldn't they just ignore game balancing issues and go for 100% realism? (Ie. they don't have to appeal to a wide audience, just a core fanbase fanatical about hardcore realism.)

I would like to see some small effect of taking a hit being introduced (like inability to fire for a second, or something). I don't know if having absolutely no immedate reaction at all to injury is realistic...

Message Edited on 12/12/0311:15AM by eobet

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 02:13 PM
It would take a heck (ler und koch <SORRY>) of a lot to program all weapons to be as true to life as possible...

An adventurous notion, but perhaps one which is possible!

XyZspineZyX
12-24-2003, 08:32 PM
Consider Half-life Firearms mod:

http://www.firearmsmod.com/

It was pretty obviously written by people who were committed to a lot of the naunches of realism.

(Don't get me wrong, that Raven shield has this level of realism in a mass appeal game is a great achievement in itself).

Note: Another set of issues goes into service weapon procurement, and other factors influence battle outcomes.

Remember, most soldiers don't shoot at people nearly as much as they have to patrol around all day with their guns - ergo light weight/bullpup design preferences (although bullpups bite for shooting around left cornres).

Also, cost, "invented here", and "built here" are factors - governments often want the manufacturing plants for the weapon to be in-country so that in a war they can confiscate it and ramp up production.

Also, the CHOICE of smallarms, from a combat perspective, isn't too relevant in modern war - even less relevant than they used to be. The US uses the M16; but would still be supreme if every soldier still used a 5-shot bolt-action 30-06. A soldier with a bolt rifle is still present, he's still armed, he's still got a bayonet for crowd control. And he's still got the same support - logistical and other - his enemies will still be bombed to hell, and his enemies will still either be cut off or surrounded. In real life, if you had US marines with 5-shot mausers flanking you you'd be in no less trouble than if they happened to have M16s.


So in general, the standard service rifle is a lump of weight (and "authority" in an occupied country) that a soldier has to lug around.

Heck, they rationalized the shift to minor (223 caliber) weapons in the realization of this.

XyZspineZyX
12-24-2003, 11:11 PM
They switched to 5.56 (.223) rounds for cheapness and less damage. The 5.56 is a NATO round, which means if im fighting next to a frenchman and he dies i can use his ammunition. Also, its better to wound someone than kill him in a lot of cases. Then you have effectively wiped out 2-3 people instead of one. If you kill someone they are dead, period. if you wound someone it takes 1-2 people to take him and treat him and carry him.

XyZspineZyX
12-25-2003, 12:10 AM
OMG.

Did you just compare FA to real life?

Excuse me while I go die laughing.

FA's headshot-necessitating guns are far from realistic... but that's the point. FA's about skills and having fun, not realism.

But if any game was completely dedicated to realism, you'd die once and never be able to play again. Each gun would be stable, accurate and useful. You could have seven different attachments and duck and prone and sprint and kick ***... but that wouldn't be fun.

RvS, in it's state, is slightly buggy, but fun.

FA, in it's state, is fun.

Real life is not fun.

So, down with total realism. ^_^

-Alexei Seranov
j3wg0k1 in game.

XyZspineZyX
12-25-2003, 02:08 PM
The weapons on Ravenshield are balanced out, so that they all have weaknesses. Although they flaunt such weaknesses in real life, they are also more individual in real life.

The weapons must all recoil a fair bit, and have slightly different characteristics. This is not intended to be a simulation, though. And the G36K on the game is certainly not a simulation!

If you look at the accuracy of the PSG1 on R6 RVS, you may notice little difference between that and the Dragunov. In real life, it is .8MOA-vs 2.1 MOA respectively at under 600m.

XyZspineZyX
12-25-2003, 03:52 PM
You can never have a game too realistic or it would be too hard to enjoy. On some levels you have to kill 25 terrorist with one team this wouldnt haqppen. I think the guns are just fine maybe a little too much reciol though i have used an SA80 and the reciol was bad but controlable. Maybe in athena swod we will have more realism who knows
Good topic though

XyZspineZyX
12-25-2003, 09:26 PM
Yes...

I personally think it would be unfair if they had the G36K recoiling like it does in real life, because it already comes with a red-dot reticule scope, which zooms very quickly... There are only so many advantages you can have per gun ;-)

XyZspineZyX
12-25-2003, 11:18 PM
Seranov wrote:
- OMG.
-
- Did you just compare FA to real life?
-
- Excuse me while I go die laughing.
--Alexei Seranov
- j3wg0k1 in game.


No, I compared Half-life FirearmsMod to Ravenshield, in the context of someone who was looking for "realism" in their FPS games. I apologise for not being clear, I really meant that the "gun" stuff in FA seemed geared towards realism. The play is of course nothing like real life; but also seemed a little more geared towards "realism" (in quotes) as they tended to acknowledge injury in a more complex manners.

Both are fun in different ways (I'm currently getting into RavenShield so I'm certainly not condemning it).


Rest of my post was perspectives on real-life weapons, etc.

The biggest difference between game and RL? Someone mentioned it, you don't get to play again when you die. Consequently, you behave differently. Real life combat does not always, or often, involve everyone getting killed (and charging out suicidally when all your buddies die). In real life, the winners don't like killing people and the losers don't like dying (and nobody wants to be there as it's not fun) - there is running away, and surrender. Ergo my comment on:

The choice of "H&K plastic wonder vs. Mauser 5-shot World War 1 model" has less of an outcome on a fight than who has air superiority, who has support, who has artillery, and who's flanked/surrounded.

But all else being equal, having the gun be lighter and portable isn't too bad - Having it able to unload a magazine in 3 seconds at point blank range can't hurt, etc. etc. . . .






Message Edited on 12/25/0304:22PM by ViviansHamster

XyZspineZyX
01-02-2004, 12:43 PM
If you want some realism try Operation flashpoint !!
great campaigns single player and multiplayer formats
with massive battlefields. in most cases if you see it you can use it.

XyZspineZyX
01-02-2004, 01:00 PM
Yeah... But the weapons are a bit dated. Don't get me wrong, OF is probably one of the best games ever!

XyZspineZyX
01-04-2004, 10:36 PM
I think if Ubi added some features from Ghost Recon then Raven Shield could be a lot better. the wounding system in Ghost Recon is quite realistic, chest wounds dont make you limp. When hit in GR your aim is thrown around so you are actually affected by a bullet instead of walking through it unphased. The bullets arent affective enough in Raven Shield and the weapons seem to have horrible recovery. Another way to help with realism is to not allow players to run with a scope activated. I dont have much experience with guns irl but i would think it is hard to look down your scope while running and spraying half of your magazine at an enemy. maybe your scope could move around on your screen when you are firing more than controlled bursts of automatic fire. Maybe there could be a realism mode for us hardcore realism gamers.

XyZspineZyX
01-05-2004, 11:07 AM
Yeah!!! It is VERY hard to run while looking down a scope.

The G36 has two scopes, and the one with the red dot (for quite target acquisition at closer ranges, and a 3.5x optical sight). Both prove extremely disorienting to look through when running forwards or backwards, but are fine from side to side (strafing). This is probably because the zoom (or how close an object appears in the scope) is only affected if you are running/walking towards or away from the target. If you were refering to looking down your scope when running, yeah, that is hard. You walk while glancing down your scope, so not to collide with objects like a drunken old man.

XyZspineZyX
01-06-2004, 02:34 AM
teebus wrote:
- Yeah!!! It is VERY hard to run while looking down a
- scope.
-
- The G36 has two scopes, and the one with the red dot
- (for quite target acquisition at closer ranges, and
- a 3.5x optical sight). Both prove extremely
- disorienting to look through when running forwards
- or backwards, but are fine from side to side
- (strafing). This is probably because the zoom (or
- how close an object appears in the scope) is only
- affected if you are running/walking towards or away
- from the target. If you were refering to looking
- down your scope when running, yeah, that is hard.
- You walk while glancing down your scope, so not to
- collide with objects like a drunken old man.
-
-

There are TWO main series of the HK G36: The G36 and the G36E. The main differences are easily seen:

G36KE

http://www.hkpro.com/image/g36k.jpg



G36K

http://www.hkpro.com/image/g36kfold.jpg


From Modern Firearms: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as14-e.htm

"The standard sighting equipment of the G36 consists of the TWO scopes - one 3.5X telescope sight below, with the second 1X red-dot sight above it. The sights are completely independent, with the former suitable for long range accurate shooting, and the latter suitable for the fast target acquisition at the short ranges. Both sights are built into the plastic carrying handle. The export versions of the G36 are available with the single 1.5X telescope sight, with the emergency open sights molded into the top of the carrying handle. The subcompact G36K Commando version is available with the integral Picatinny-type scope and accessory rail instead of the carrying handle and standard sights."

A image showing the two sight systems:

http://www.hkpro.com/Reticle.jpg


Of course, the sights can be switched between the G36 and G36E series, as shown:

http://www.hkpro.com/image/g36acc.jpg


The price for the basic G36E (single sighted) is $1200 USD, and the dual sighted model are about $400 USD more.

XyZspineZyX
01-06-2004, 05:10 PM
I know... I use the G36 in real life /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

The Bundeswehr (Mezzo Munchen) use the G36C as a medium-range compact varient, complimented by the honourable G36K (carbine).

The longer barrel, and hence; higher muzzle velocity (range and power) of both the MG36 (SAW varient) and the G36KE <Kinetic Energy> (renamed G36... Standard varient) allow targets to be engaged at greatly increased ranges.

The Dakota T-76 Longbow, PSG1, MSG90, and Blaser R93 Tactical offer effective reconaissance to the above.



Message Edited on 01/06/0404:13PM by teebus

XyZspineZyX
01-06-2004, 09:52 PM
I use this one:

http://www.diemaco.com/images/sal-c8.gif


The Diemanco C8... I am part of the Canadian Armed Forces, as part as a armoured recon division.

XyZspineZyX
01-07-2004, 12:07 AM
Nice... Where abouts in Canada do you live and patrol?

So the C8 is basically a modified M16A2 as a carbine? Does it suffer from gas fouling like the M16A2?

XyZspineZyX
01-07-2004, 01:29 AM
Vancouver, British Columbia. Yes, it suffers from the gas fouling, causing lots of time spent on cleaning the rifles. We are using the most hated vehicle in the forces, the Iltis (good thing these are set to go in a year or so). The damned thing is underpowered, and that means getting out every now and then and pushing. But the Iltis is being replaced by a (get this!) a Commercial-Off-The-Shelf vehicle, based off the GM Silverado truck! The regulars are getting the G-wagen, which I believe the German Bundeswehr uses. I just hope we don't go to war with our reserve trucks... the surviability of the crew inside would be very low...