nVidia pwned!! AHAHAHA!

[DarkPretender]

SM3.0? I think not...

http://esprit.campus.luth.se/~humus/3D/index.php

"One of the main features of pixel shader 3.0 is that is supports dynamic branching (also called data dependent branching), something that nVidia of course makes a big deal about. This demo however shows a way to implement dynamic branching without pixel shader 3.0, using basic graphics functionality such as alpha testing and stencil testing. Not only is it doable, but also gives every bit of the performance of real dynamic branching.
One scenario where dynamic branching comes in handy is when you have range-limited lights. Whenever a fragment is outside the range of the light, you can skip all the lighting math and just return zero immediately. With pixel shader 3.0 you'd simply implement this with an if-statement. Without pixel shader 3.0, you just move this check to another shader. This shader returns a truth value to alpha. The alpha test then kills all unlit fragments. Surviving fragments will write 1 to stencil. In the next pass you simply draw lighting as usual. The stencil test will remove any fragments that aren't tagged as lit. If the hardware performs the stencil test prior to shading you will save a lot of shading power. In fact, the shading workload is reduced to the same level of pixel shader 3.0, or in some cases even slightly below since the alpha test can do a compare that otherwise would have to be performed in the shader.
The result is that early-out speeds things up considerably. In this demo the speed-up is generally in the range of two to four times as fast than without early-out. And with more complex lighting, the gain would have been even larger.

This demo should run on Radeon 9500 and up, and GeForce FX 5200 and up."

of coarse, the professional programmers from CryTek still think SM3.0 is the best...which of coarse when you get lots of money for funding you belive whatever the person giving you the money says...


THIS IS NOT PRO ATI! I am pissed to find out that CryTek are being a bunch of buy outs and if my SM2.0 card does not support the extra goodies that are not even needed by SM3.0 I will boycott any future products from CryTek for selling out! This just proves it can be done without it!

[DarkPretender]

SM3.0? I think not...

http://esprit.campus.luth.se/~humus/3D/index.php

"One of the main features of pixel shader 3.0 is that is supports dynamic branching (also called data dependent branching), something that nVidia of course makes a big deal about. This demo however shows a way to implement dynamic branching without pixel shader 3.0, using basic graphics functionality such as alpha testing and stencil testing. Not only is it doable, but also gives every bit of the performance of real dynamic branching.
One scenario where dynamic branching comes in handy is when you have range-limited lights. Whenever a fragment is outside the range of the light, you can skip all the lighting math and just return zero immediately. With pixel shader 3.0 you'd simply implement this with an if-statement. Without pixel shader 3.0, you just move this check to another shader. This shader returns a truth value to alpha. The alpha test then kills all unlit fragments. Surviving fragments will write 1 to stencil. In the next pass you simply draw lighting as usual. The stencil test will remove any fragments that aren't tagged as lit. If the hardware performs the stencil test prior to shading you will save a lot of shading power. In fact, the shading workload is reduced to the same level of pixel shader 3.0, or in some cases even slightly below since the alpha test can do a compare that otherwise would have to be performed in the shader.
The result is that early-out speeds things up considerably. In this demo the speed-up is generally in the range of two to four times as fast than without early-out. And with more complex lighting, the gain would have been even larger.

This demo should run on Radeon 9500 and up, and GeForce FX 5200 and up."

of coarse, the professional programmers from CryTek still think SM3.0 is the best...which of coarse when you get lots of money for funding you belive whatever the person giving you the money says...


THIS IS NOT PRO ATI! I am pissed to find out that CryTek are being a bunch of buy outs and if my SM2.0 card does not support the extra goodies that are not even needed by SM3.0 I will boycott any future products from CryTek for selling out! This just proves it can be done without it!

[Deadpreacher]

Really Hate too say this...

But the closet im going too get too pixel shader 3.0 is on the X-box 2 (Xenon).
At least for the next few years (2) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Unless i come up with some big money too upgrade com again!
Anyways i hear you,
but thats the way it is sometimes...
You want it you must buy the product! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

To finsh i really love what pixel shader 3.0 can do! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif
Besides now i think about it the X-box graphic driver is going too be ATI!
And that card well support 3.0 ....
Emmm something too think about there!
I'm Not a Bad Man, I'm just not a Very Good one!
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload7/DeadPreacher_Sig_2.jpg

[ZantenX]

If this is correct, I'd expect the PS3.0 shader patch to go in, but sometime down the road (maybe 3 months or so), I bet they add in this sort of programming for everyone else.

[DarkPretender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZantenX:
If this is correct, I'd expect the PS3.0 shader patch to go in, but sometime down the road (maybe 3 months or so), I bet they add in this sort of programming for everyone else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See the thing with SM3.0 is the only features they are going to be using is purly for optimizations. If they add eye candy it will all be capable with SM2.0. But they choose to only compile SM3.0 code because they are sell outs...

O well, i guess money really can get you anything.

[jasper_vermaas]

LOL well If the SM3.0 Suck than what about the NEW SLI futere check out this http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.tweakers.net/ext/i.dsp/1088415725.jpg

Yep this are 2 6800 linked to gheter they work by spliting up the Screen in 2 parts and rendering them separeted so GPU1 Gets the Uper part of the screen and GPU2 gets the lower pard

AND YES THERE IS A CON.
you have to have a PCI Express 16Ӕ but also have to have them Both so you need 2 of this ports meaning you have to go for AMD opteron or a Intel Xeon

Btw if you do this smart than you buy 2 6800GT and Clock this GT carts to a 6800 Ultra(This is posible whit out any tweaks to the Cooling)
Now a 6800Gt cost around 350/400 Dollar so if you have 2 than you should pay around 700/800 Dollar. But whats the good story here it will work around 90% faster than 1 GPU so if you Shoul match a X800 to this than you can say good bye EVEN if you use the Alien Ware XL whit Video Array Cuase that will not be as fast as this VA will be about 40% faster and keep in mind you also need 2 GPU so going fot e SLI 6800 Sollution Is the best you can do and than youl see.

BTW Shader 3 Model is not made to make it More suprime It is made to make Shader 2.0 faster cause it can handle More Instruction in 1 Code line so meaning a better preformance. you cant match that whit Shader 2.0

http://home.publishnet.nl/~pvermaas/fc/oa_banner.jpg (http://www.op-archangel.com)
Ever want To bust my Behind Than Join one of the Gameserver.net servers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ZantenX]

You know, I don't think 99% of the gamer popular gives a rats *** about the SLI except to dream about. Who can burn that much money on a computer and feel it was worth it? Not only do you have to spend $900 in GPU's, you have to do the same on a CPU, at least another $200 on a motherboard, and then you need to improve the cooling of your comp, because those 2 cards will be venting a lot of heat.

[thedudemanguy]

holy #%#!

I went from 20-30 fps average to 70-100 fps average

if this can apply to current games like far cry or doom 3.... that's going to be huge

[DarkPretender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thedudemanguy:
holy #%#!

I went from 20-30 fps average to 70-100 fps average

if this can apply to current games like far cry or doom 3.... that's going to be huge<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


well...it is in theory the kinda increase you would get from using dynamic branching in SM3.0. But it can be used for SM2.0 cards.

But nVidida would never letyou know that...

[Velocite]

what is SM3.0 and what does it do??????

and what is pixel shader? i see pixel shader makes games like Far Cry look nicer, but is it hardware or software? is pixel shader something i can download or is it even out yet if it is software? what are the requirements for pixel shader?

[Overshoot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkPretender:

THIS IS NOT PRO ATI! I am pissed to find out that CryTek are being a bunch of buy outs and if my SM2.0 card does not support the extra goodies that are not even needed by SM3.0 I will boycott any future products from CryTek for selling out! This just proves it can be done without it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, take a chill pill. The fact that Crytek are doing anything to the game, post-release, above and beyond fixes is enough to give them a lot of credit.

If I was in their shoes I'd probably do exactly the same thing. Being handed a development opportunity to play with future technologies like that is something that you don't turn away.

And the fact that PS2.0 can do the same stuff? Sure, if you're into spending your time reinventing the wheel. Hell, why don't these developers just write a Z-Buffer 3d algorithm themselves to do the rendering. That would save us all having to go out and spend money on graphics cards.

It's called progress. Just look at all the new games coming out now. Oodles of the components are being outsourced and we, the gamers, are massively benefitting from it. Havoc physics engine, 3d cards, surround sound APIs etc.

The PS3.0 stuff is just another weight off the game devs shoulders so they can concentrate on world and story design.

If anyone, you should be cursing ATI for not meeting the design specs of PS3.0 - it's not an NVidia protocol, and it's not like ATI aren't best mates with MS at the moment, so they only have themselves to blame.

[Overshoot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkPretender:
SM3.0? I think not...

http://esprit.campus.luth.se/~humus/3D/index.php

THIS IS NOT PRO ATI!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm thinking it's hard to put those two pieces of info side by side in the same thread since he works at ATI?

[thedudemanguy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Overshoot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkPretender:
SM3.0? I think not...

http://esprit.campus.luth.se/~humus/3D/index.php

THIS IS NOT PRO ATI!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm thinking it's hard to put those two pieces of info side by side in the same thread since he works at ATI?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is true, but humus is a highly respected graphics programmer, look at his archive and how many demos he's made... he just recently started working at ATI but I don't see why one of the best coders around would be out to spread any fanboyism, he does demos because he loves graphics technology

[DarkPretender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Overshoot:
If anyone, you should be cursing ATI for not meeting the design specs of PS3.0 - it's not an NVidia protocol, and it's not like ATI aren't best mates with MS at the moment, so they only have themselves to blame.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really...they did what they did for a reason.

They honestly figured SM3.0 was worthless at this point of the game. I still think they are correct, but time will tell I guess. How about this, if Half life 2 requires a 6800 I will buy it. But right now, my 9800 256mb will show just as much detail as a 6800 with only 80fps instead of the 120 I might get with the 6800.

[Overshoot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thedudemanguy:
this is true, but humus is a highly respected graphics programmer, look at his archive and how many demos he's made... he just recently started working at ATI but I don't see why one of the best coders around would be out to spread any fanboyism, he does demos because he loves graphics technology<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I'm very aware of his capabilities. In fact when I toyed around with OpenGL a little while ago I found his resources and tutorials excellent. But like anyone who works for a company with competition, of course you are going to 'point out' their weaknesses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkPretender:
They honestly figured SM3.0 was worthless at this point of the game. I still think they are correct, but time will tell I guess. How about this, if Half life 2 requires a 6800 I will buy it. But right now, my 9800 256mb will show just as much detail as a 6800 with only 80fps instead of the 120 I might get with the 6800.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you certain about that? I thought the PS3 problem for ATI was primarily the lack of 32bit support, which is a requirement of PS3.

What other reason could they possibly have for not supporting a defined interface for an OS? A long time ago when 3D cards were first emerging, and MS had no clue how to write an API there were good reasons to have custom drivers (GLIDE), but now you've got to be crazy to expect developers to either limit themselves to your technology, or expect them to overextend themselves to support some card specific features.

I'm not trying to be biased, in I had been on the verge of switching to ATI when the first specs of their next gen cards came out, but they still don't quite cut it. I personally don't care what I own, I just buy the best because I can afford it. I've been waiting for PCIx before I next upgrade so I've got a couple of months to watch these guys duke it out.

[jakup73]

nvidia pwned? Dont think so...

FarCry Patch 1.2 review:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=2102

---------------
Liquid Cooled P4 3.0c @ 3.8GHz, 1,016MHz FSB | ABIT IC7 | Corsair 1GB TwinX Pro Series w/ Activity LED's @ DDR 508MHz CL 2.5 | 74GB WD Raptor 10K RPM SATA | Liteon CDRW/DVD | Audigy 2 ZS | Enermax Noisetaker 475W v1.3 | Logitech Z-560 | eVGA 6800 Ultra- 450MHz/1,300MHz 256MB
3DMark 2001-24,229
3DMark 2003-14,005

[Red_Wagon]

And as soon as the next batch of cards come out all this energy being spent into debunking progress (which is what we all want right?) or SM3.0 will fall away as ATI introduces SM3.0 cards. Unless what your saying is you don't want to ever see SM3.0 on a card right?

ATI cards are fast, NVIDIA cards are fast. One gets higher average frames, the other has more features. Deal. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Think about it this way, the advancements which will be made, thanks to NVIDIA, in SM3.0 now will help your next major ATI purchase later.

I for one can't wait for Monday http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v298/Drayth/sm30.jpg

I'm all over building an SLI rig when that hits. Bring it!

The less a man makes declarative statemenets, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.

[This message was edited by Red_Wagon on Fri July 02 2004 at 03:45 AM.]

[jasper_vermaas]

Red Wagon thats A damn good Statment you made there specialy whit the picture of Comical aly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://home.publishnet.nl/~pvermaas/fc/oa_banner.jpg (http://www.op-archangel.com)
Ever want To bust my Behind Than Join one of the Gameserver.net servers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Boz0r]

Frow what I've heard, the main problem for ATI implementing PS3.0 WAS the lack of 32-bit support.

For those who do not know, ATI only uses 24-bit instead of 32-bit, like Nvidia does.

[Creomortis]

you can use 1 xeon you dont need two and i think only the ultras support SLI

http://www.zen30133.zen.co.uk/Downloader.gif http://www.zen30133.zen.co.uk/Babylon.gif
http://down1oader.deviantart.com/ http://www.clanstar.com

[ZantenX]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Creomortis:
you can use 1 xeon you dont need two and i think only the ultras support SLI

http://www.zen30133.zen.co.uk/Downloader.gif http://www.zen30133.zen.co.uk/Babylon.gif
http://down1oader.deviantart.com/ http://www.clanstar.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I said that you'll need the same for CPU's, I was refering to total costs. Xeon's cost over $1000 a piece, and Opteron's are only slightly cheaper.

[T3chn0r]

I just bought an ATI Radeon 9800XT around a year ago so I don't think I will be buying another GPU for a couple of years more... I guess by the time I buy my next rig PS 6.0 will be available together with DirectX 12b... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Red_Wagon]

SLI works with Ultra and GT's.

And you don't have to use an Opteron on the AMD side...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>NFORCE 4 will be the name of the project that will finally bring PCI Express to the Athlon K8 market. This chipset will be socket 754/939 ready and 940 compatible and all CPUs Athlon 64s, FX, Sempr0ns and Opterons will work on it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Overshoot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T3chn0r:
I just bought an ATI Radeon 9800XT around a year ago so I don't think I will be buying another GPU for a couple of years more... I guess by the time I buy my next rig PS 6.0 will be available together with DirectX 12b... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By the time you upgrade, PS will be the quirky hack that we used to use to simulate ray tracing.