Patrick Redding Indepth Stealth Interview with SneakyBastards

[sameer_monier]

Here is the Link (http://sneakybastards.net/theobserver/blacklist-interview)

Check it out and let's discuss, and I am still reading it, but so far he is talking about the Stealth system, and the AI.


Edit: And it is confirmed ?!, you can upgrade goggles by adding layers to it like NV or TV to suit your style.

[Andre202]

I liked the interview a lot. They do much more with the AI. Sonar, Thermal and Night Vision Goggles seems to be confirmed now. They can be used as "layers" in the goggles which you can upgrade.


Yeah, exactly! It’s poor failure design. And I think that when you look at the games that have come out since that have embraced stealth as a mode, they’ve done a really good job of tackling that. And that’s what we’re trying to do. So one of the things we’ve done is overhaul our AI substantially. We’ve introduced new archetypes and a whole new suite of behaviours so that even in situations that require the player to go undetected – and those moments exist in our game – we’re doing it in a way where, if the player starts to screw up, they can salvage the situation. They can save the day, and silence whoever they’re dealing with, and get back to the stealth.

That's one thing I am curious. Since SCCT I think this failure design was decreased to some point though. But Blacklist seems to support now a better much more improved gameplay loop.
Now we hear there are moments which require you do go undetected. I mean personally it sound good to my ears, because I like Ghosting but what's with the others and what's if am not in the mood of ghosting. Some poeple won't like these moments just as I wouldn't like to have these action moments. Don't force one or the other, I have said this several times already.

[michaelanjello]

I liked the interview a lot. They do much more with the AI. Sonar, Thermal and Night Vision Goggles seems to be confirmed now. They can be used as "layers" in the goggles which you can upgrade.



That's one thing I am curious. Since SCCT I think this failure design was decreased to some point though. But Blacklist seems to support now a better much more improved gameplay loop.
Now we hear there are moments which require you do go undetected. I mean personally it sound good to my ears, because I like Ghosting but with the others and what's if am not in the mood of ghosting. Some poeple won't like these moments just as I wouldn't like to have these action moments. Don't force one or the other, I have said this several times already.

Yeah but You have to remember that this is a splinter Cell game, and they will give you situations where You will HAVE to go undetected because of the storyline or because that will give you the most heightened experience. Even shooter games like call of duty have levels where they force some sort of basic stealth on you. And those are usually considered the best levels in the game. Even if a player shoots alot and is then forced to go stealth, he now gets a challenge and gets a wakeup call of how exactly he was playing. Of how much more fun, sneaking by guys really is.

I think its a really good idea, since it gives the players the opportunity to shoot everything but then with that full on stealth moment they get a taste of what it is to to be a ghost. Im liking more and more of what I hear.

[michaelanjello]

Of course Ill be trying to ghost the entire game.

[mateus99]

Thanks for the link sameer, i dont know about you guys but the more i hear the more it sounds like a great sc game.

[sameer_monier]

I liked the interview a lot. They do much more with the AI. Sonar, Thermal and Night Vision Goggles seems to be confirmed now. They can be used as "layers" in the goggles which you can upgrade.



That's one thing I am curious. Since SCCT I think this failure design was decreased to some point though. But Blacklist seems to support now a better much more improved gameplay loop.
Now we hear there are moments which require you do go undetected. I mean personally it sound good to my ears, because I like Ghosting but what's with the others and what's if am not in the mood of ghosting. Some poeple won't like these moments just as I wouldn't like to have these action moments. Don't force one or the other, I have said this several times already.
As michaelanjello said, these situation needs to be there in a mission or 2 since it is a stealth game first, but I also agree with you about the need of freedom, DE:HR really mastered that.

Also it seems if you are detected you can handle it, you can take out the guard before he sound an alarm or something, pretty good I believe, what I am really interested in and loving right now is the Focus on AI, nothing is more important in a stealth game that the AI IMO, they seem to really try to flesh them out as possible, one thing people may not like is that it seems the Stealth System now is more of Binary + LoS, rather than full spectrum light and shadow, personally I feel the good things overweight the bad.

As for the Scripted Events you are arguing about Andre, it seems we will get a few of them, well at least I am happy they are not the whole game

so we are going to see occasional intervention in terms of scripted events, but really, we try to minimise that, because we want the player to be constantly able to take different paths. Again, AI becomes a super useful aspect of that, because we’re now using our AI to communicate a lot more story elements to players systemically in the game environment.
and again the focus on AI, why do I feel this game maybe really amazing ?!



But even on the singleplayer side, we know that we’ve come out with a big, bright daylight bombshell. We need to also show other aspect of what the player experience will be like, and that will include the darker, shadowy, more classic kinds of environments. I think you’ll be seeing that in the coming months.
I hope he isn't like Jade, otherwise we will have to wait till March 2013 to see anything new LOL

[Andre202]

GC2012, I will be there, if they have something new planned there.
Yeah I also like the AI focus.

[sameer_monier]

GC2012, I will be there, if they have something new planned there.
Yeah I also like the AI focus.
GC2012 ?!, I am sorry but I didn't hear about it, what is it ?!

[mateus99]

Just finished reading. it seems thay know what they are doing.night and thermal are back and you can combine them,you have many options,scripted events do not ruin the game for stealth players,HUGE focus on ai improvement,
Im getting more and more exited.cannot wait for more info.

Andre202 if you go to GC2012 dont forget to get more info about the game from the developers.

[mateus99]

GC2012 ?!, I am sorry but I didn't hear about it, what is it ?!

games com 2012 its going to happen somewhere in august i think

edit: i checked its happening 15-19 august

and we also have GDC (games developers conference) 13-15 august

So im sure we will get more info then

[Andre202]

GC2012 = Gamescom 2012 in Germany.
I am not sure if there will be any developers from Toronto.

[sameer_monier]

I was planning to go to GC2012 too, but It seems I won't

I hope we hear from ya Andre.

[Si1entDark]

Interesting read, thanks for the link sameer.

[nster81]

Really don't understand the purpose of having any other vision mode if sonar is in the game. It should have been a one-time deal with that. Doesn't look to be enough shadows to warrant night vision. Same with thermal; sonar is just glorfied thermal.

[JaRuTo]

I don't understand... will it be a complex hiding mechanism in the shadows or just go into the shadow and no matter where we go (in the shadowed area) we still hidden to the max - will not be hiding somewhere in the middle.
Second question. Which one Double Agent Patrick Reeding said because there were two different versions?

[Andre202]

It seems it will be binary again.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I think the shadows were too light in Kinshasha really as well and well...they didn't even give Sam the goggles in DA for Kinshasha. In this one they did, they gave him the sonar. But if you're a classic fan, you're not going to want to use sonar and would prefer AT LEAST NVG. You'd use it in the night missions and indoor, dark missions but why would there need to be another vision mode other than sonar? Simple. They claim the game was built around letting 3 archetype players -- ghost, panther, and action -- play the game and while sonar suits the panthers (who want to be able to quickly survey the area and then take the enemies out quickly and with little detection) and the action players (who want to see where the enemies are so they can lob some grenades and shoot them) it definitely does NOT suit the ghosts who want to be able to slowly and methodically sneak through the mission using espionage gadgets and other devices and do not want to know where every enemy is with the press of a button -- they'd prefer to have to use sticky cams and looking around corners. I'm hoping that they realize sonar is something that goes against ghost methodology and against their supposed philosophy of the devs to create a game that all those players will enjoy. I hope and pray that this means NVG will be another set of goggles we can use or upgrade or purchase or whatever and was made for the ghosts.

[JaRuTo]

It seems it will be binary again.
How can you be sure?

[CamberGreber]

Phew that made me feel better. :)
I like the fact that it seems there will be more Eavesdropping on guard conversations.

NO BINARY L&S Please
When referenceing Night vision and thermal upgrades to the sonar goggles he says...
"Exactly. But they’re cumulative, in the sense that you can overlay these things" - what the heck does that mean :(

All in All it was a good interview and made me calmer about these issues.

[CamberGreber]

I don't understand... will it be a complex hiding mechanism in the shadows or just go into the shadow and no matter where we go (in the shadowed area) we still hidden to the max - will not be hiding somewhere in the middle.
Second question. Which one Double Agent Patrick Reeding said because there were two different versions?

He is refferring to the 360 version it is the only one with a light meter on the back.
Also it uses Binary L&S :(

[Andre202]

How can you be sure?

Well if the indication of whether you are hidden or not isn't represented in a form of a spectrum like, the more you are into the dark shadows the more the HUD is turning black, the more you go out of the dark shadows it turns back to it's normal colour. But since it seems to be binary when it comes to the visuals of the stealthmeter like the bright green when being hidden and otherwise not, you won't be able to tell when you are inbetween something and I think Patrick did mention that problem. The B/W filter just turned on and off but you never know where exactly it would change it's status. Such systems only allow for binary reactions of the AI. You cannot expect from the player to see whether you are completely hidden or just partly. The Stealthmeter in previous games helped there and therefore allowed for multiple AI reactions because people knew where there is the inbetween, the greyzone and so the Devs can expect from the player to take care of that.

Another problem is that Binary Stealth is somekind of LoS Stealth (Line of Sight). B/W you are in cover, Colour you are visible not hiding behind something. If you compare them, their AI reactions are completely the same.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

So, instead, we’ve gone with something that’s much more familiar to players who’ve played Double Agent, which is the idea of the light meter on the back

*sigh*



Is that a binary shadow system?

It’s based on the same stealth system we’ve always had in Splinter Cell, which is that there’s a certain number of bones on the player that can be illuminated, and we are literally simulating that. A lot of games will have a stealth system where the level designers are literally designating hidden zones, and if you’re in one, you’re hidden.

i.e. Yes, it is a binary system.

If it wasn't a binary system, they'd tell you. I hate binary stealth.




That’s a really good point. Without giving anything away, what I can speak to is the fact that when I have meetings with the scripted events teams, and the level design teams, there will be moments where I’ll say, okay, you guys have this down in here as more of a cutscene – it can’t be that, because we want to be able to keep AI active in the area for stealth players. And they’ll say, no problem, then take that out and replace it with a dialogue or something that’s a little bit faster. So that give and take is happening all the time. Occasionally, we might set up a pure stealth space by having a cutscene at the beginning and a cutscene at the end so we can book-end it.

This is good to hear, but I just hope that you're not forced to sit through cut-scenes again.

There was nothing worse than Conviction than wanting to play a level and being forced to sit through a whole series of gameplay introduction elements or interrogations when all I want to do is get stuck into the gameplay!!

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Sigh....binary stealth. Maybe there's still time to correct this issue? It's such a pain to be hidden one instant, and not the other and then have someone shout and fire at you. >.<

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

WHOA! It's shadowfox!!! Honestly, I thought shadowfox was gone...? I'm talking about him as if he's not here.... lol

anyway....they talked about you and what you'd like in the game! (x

[Andre202]

But if you think of it ShadowFox. The game never really used the dynamic Stealth system. There were always borders when it comes to AI reactions.

http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/j5s00daq/thumb/Stealthmeter.jpg (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/j5s00daq/Stealthmeter.jpg)

Green = Hidden
Yellow = Suspicious
Red = Detected

[Knot3D]

But if you think of it ShadowFox. The game never really used the dynamic Stealth system. There were always borders when it comes to AI reactions.

http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/j5s00daq/thumb/Stealthmeter.jpg (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/j5s00daq/Stealthmeter.jpg)

Green = Hidden
Yellow = Suspicious
Red = Detected

The being hidden in shadow thing might be binary, but the way the NPC AI reacts now is analogue. Therein lies the new difference.

It would be nice that IF the player creates a bit of a ruckus.... then some NPC's become alarmed....but the player can then manipulate
some other NPC's in such a way that they will get the "blame" for the noise....in other words, diffusing the alert state.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Yeah but Andre, the old system let you know when you were nearing a point where you'd be suspicious or detected yknow? SCC and DA just spring it on you like oh yeah, btwthey can see you now. but I guess you figured that out when they started shooting huh? The meter was the best way to go and why they scrapped it?idk...to make it look cooler I guess....so stupid.

[Andre202]

Yeah I know what you mean there, I pointed that out myself a post earlier.

[shobhit7777777]

Sigh....binary stealth. Maybe there's still time to correct this issue? It's such a pain to be hidden one instant, and not the other and then have someone shout and fire at you. >.<

Thank god for that....legacy SC stealth detection was hyper unrealistic and kinda immersion breaking. You are either hidden or detected...what they need to add is a midway in terms of the AI REACTION.....not detection. Instead of the white crescent indicator...have an animation play where the AI ***** it's head as it spots you and depending on the exposure time determine detection......not any more of the 3/4 light meter BS. Human eyes and ears don't work like that. Keep the exposure time real small and the detection window real tight...like in SCC....just add an animation for the middle ground where the AI catches a small fleeting glimpse to make it more believable....and hiding should only be possible in the darkest of shadows....I.e. binary shadows.


What Knot3D said

[Andre202]

Thank god for that....legacy SC stealth detection was hyper unrealistic and kinda immersion breaking. You are either hidden or detected...what they need to add is a midway in terms of the AI REACTION.....not detection. Instead of the white crescent indicator...have an animation play where the AI ***** it's head as it spots you and depending on the exposure time determine detection......not any more of the 3/4 light meter BS. Human eyes and ears don't work like that. Keep the exposure time real small and the detection window real tight...like in SCC....just add an animation for the middle ground where the AI catches a small fleeting glimpse to make it more believable....and hiding should only be possible in the darkest of shadows....I.e. binary shadows.

Ohh please, should I dig out my driving in the winter example again. The way you are explaining it is not how a human eye works. It's not binary. Hell, The world would look completely boring if it would work binary. The idea you have with the AI sounds good, but human eyes don't work binary.

[shobhit7777777]

Ohh please, should I dig out my driving in the winter example again. The way you are explaining it is not how a human eye works. It's not binary. Hell, The world would look completely boring if it would work binary. The idea you have with the AI sounds good, but human eyes don't work binary.

"Oh please" back at you....I'll get a nice lengthy post in as to why Binary shadows are better....right now I'm on an iPad and it is driving me nuts. You want me to dig out the post where I explain how a sentry actually operates in the night based on my own personal experience? Driving a car is very different from being on the lookout for human intruders. This discussion isn't over.

BTW how can you turn off Auto correct ?

[bluewolf042000]

"we’re teaching the player that shadow is one way to stay hidden. But there’s also just simply staying out of the line of sight. It’s occlusion, it’s being sneaky. So, in a way, we’re almost embracing a more comprehensive style of stealth play."

I agree with this. Relying on shadows all the time is simply not realistic, which is why you also have to rely on the environment and outsmarting the bad guys. A bit more of an active stealth if you would.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Shobit....there are shadows where you can go "hey...i can totally see that desk." Then there are shadows that are like "hey...I can see the desk but it's a little harder..." and then "hey...i can make out a rectangular shape...." then "there's something in those shadows..." then "is there something in those shadows?" then finally "I can't see anything in those shadows."

[JaRuTo]

Exactly. I can tell you more about the realism of hiding.
The guard at the moment he sees something that differs in shape from the outside, because his eyes are slowly getting used to the darkness, and even from a distance of 8 meters can see the silhouette, even if they are dressed in black. It is best to dress in brown then you are the least visible, thieves often get so dressed. Don't ask how I know...
In the SC games, hiding a rather quite far from realism, because even if your Fisher is hiding in complete darkness to the guard can see him, interested in the shape of the figure that stands out in the environment - if too late you realize what's going on and will not back down then you are in trapped.

[Andre202]

Binary = I have two variables.
Dynamic = I have a whole spectrum of variables.

If I have a Binary system then you are only able to represent Hidden and not hidden. So L&S would work just the way LoS is working.
When I am driving a car in the winter being in a snow storm, there will never be the situation where you detect the next car in front of you like the Binary system. There is the grey zone. At first you don't see a car. Next you see the oulines of the car but you won't be able to tell what car it is. Is it a Mercedes, BMW, Toyota whatever. The closer you get to the car the more you can actually identify.

If it would be the way you say it, we would be only able to differentiate from Black and White. But we wouldn't be able to differentiate Very dark Black from Black or very dark grey from Black.

[JaRuTo]

I start to get around to covering this new hiding system, but I haven't yet to see how it looks in the game, so... looks familiar to the Metal Gears Solid hiding system, but with shadows, right?

[bluewolf042000]

In any case I trust Mr. Redding. His influence on Deniable Ops was invaluable.

Thanks for the link by the way.

[CamberGreber]

I think the shadows were too light in Kinshasha really as well and well...they didn't even give Sam the goggles in DA for Kinshasha. In this one they did, they gave him the sonar. But if you're a classic fan, you're not going to want to use sonar and would prefer AT LEAST NVG. You'd use it in the night missions and indoor, dark missions but why would there need to be another vision mode other than sonar? Simple. They claim the game was built around letting 3 archetype players -- ghost, panther, and action -- play the game and while sonar suits the panthers (who want to be able to quickly survey the area and then take the enemies out quickly and with little detection) and the action players (who want to see where the enemies are so they can lob some grenades and shoot them) it definitely does NOT suit the ghosts who want to be able to slowly and methodically sneak through the mission using espionage gadgets and other devices and do not want to know where every enemy is with the press of a button -- they'd prefer to have to use sticky cams and looking around corners. I'm hoping that they realize sonar is something that goes against ghost methodology and against their supposed philosophy of the devs to create a game that all those players will enjoy. I hope and pray that this means NVG will be another set of goggles we can use or upgrade or purchase or whatever and was made for the ghosts.

I hope Sonar is not useable on the Hardest Game modes.

[CamberGreber]

Well if the indication of whether you are hidden or not isn't represented in a form of a spectrum like, the more you are into the dark shadows the more the HUD is turning black, the more you go out of the dark shadows it turns back to it's normal colour. But since it seems to be binary when it comes to the visuals of the stealthmeter like the bright green when being hidden and otherwise not, you won't be able to tell when you are inbetween something and I think Patrick did mention that problem. The B/W filter just turned on and off but you never know where exactly it would change it's status. Such systems only allow for binary reactions of the AI. You cannot expect from the player to see whether you are completely hidden or just partly. The Stealthmeter in previous games helped there and therefore allowed for multiple AI reactions because people knew where there is the inbetween, the greyzone and so the Devs can expect from the player to take care of that.

Another problem is that Binary Stealth is somekind of LoS Stealth (Line of Sight). B/W you are in cover, Colour you are visible not hiding behind something. If you compare them, their AI reactions are completely the same.

I tottally agree Binary L&S is exactly like (Line of Sight).
With no buffer zone there is no way to predict when your about to emerge from the shadows. :(

[CamberGreber]

"we’re teaching the player that shadow is one way to stay hidden. But there’s also just simply staying out of the line of sight. It’s occlusion, it’s being sneaky. So, in a way, we’re almost embracing a more comprehensive style of stealth play."

I agree with this. Relying on shadows all the time is simply not realistic, which is why you also have to rely on the environment and outsmarting the bad guys. A bit more of an active stealth if you would.

The Legacy SC had both.
All I'm asking for is that UBI include both not 1.

The human brain interprets information because it has no choice.
You can't look at something without trying to rationalize what it is your looking at. It's impossible to turn off.

My meaning is that when guards see something in the distance they immediatly process the imformation subconciously trying too match up the shape, color, and contrast information into something that makes sense to them before there concious mind every gets access to it.

Meaning if they see something that looks like a sillohette they don't immediatly asume that is an enemie.
They first have to further investigate starting by stareing with there eyes and if need be moveing in for a better look.

What isn't realistic is moving into a grey area (not total darkness) and having a guard immediatly unload an entire clip into you.

Like I said we need both not 1.

[JaRuTo]

Chaos Theory is harmed by the ubiquitous darkness. I do not believe and I never thought that shadow is something that helps Splinter Cell series. On the contrary, I believe that the game is because of this very childish. For me and my mate, the best example of stealth-action game is a Double Agent Xbox360/PS3/PC. Where it should be dark, is dark. Where the so-called boundary begins. human living space, the environment doesn't look like a **** basement. You have to real s-n-e-a-k-y. Don't stand in the shadow. Besides, the proposed shadow - a change of contrast in areas without lighting was very much in order. In fact, the human eye is able to do, so even if the area is very soft light source.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

But if you think of it ShadowFox. The game never really used the dynamic Stealth system. There were always borders when it comes to AI reactions.

http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/j5s00daq/thumb/Stealthmeter.jpg (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/j5s00daq/Stealthmeter.jpg)

Green = Hidden
Yellow = Suspicious
Red = Detected

Yes, the borders of lightmeter did trigger different states, but the problem with the binary system is that they either see you and go full auto on you, or else they don't even notice you.

This doesn't lead to any investigation due to noticing something in the shadows.

I agree with what Redding said though, when he talks about stealth being more around using obstacles while manoeuvring through the level. LoS is technically what stealth is all about.

Darkness just acts as a buffer to LoS, masking the signal of what can be directly seen.

The problem I have is when there's no gradient to that buffer zone - just "off, off, off, off...ON!"

It's totally frustrating when you're relying on the shadow for cover.

[JaRuTo]

I am impressed by what Redding said, and I really like it : )
This may be the best Splinter Cell ever!

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Again...all I can say is...agreed, ShadowFox haha

[Shad0wGunn3Rx]

This interview has made me very excited for this game. If you can ghost the game aside for a few scripted events where action is necessary (the first 3 game even had a couple of those) this truly will be a good game. It's actually kind somewhat relieving seeing Sam back in the field the way he was in the first games, back on the job, rather than as NOC or his own personal mission. EDIT: Of couse aside from the fact that he's the head of 4E.

I actually feel that if Eric can pull of Sam's character and personality, then I'll be able to deal with not having Michael Ironside, but they really do need to make his character model look more his age. He looks younger than he did in the first game.

[FrankieSatt]

Blah, Blah, Blah.

All talk and no action means absolutely ****. I don't buy the premise that you can't "Demo Stealth". No one there obviously remembers the first 3 games which were primarly STEALTH and Chaos Theory got the highest rating of ANY Splinter Cell game. Can't "Demo Stealth"? Bull ****.

[MonkeySoldier14]

I think the best thing they can do with the binary system now that they have reverted back to the light indicator is to simply just add more indication to it for the player. It's a bit difficult to tell from the Blacklist demo but if it's anything like Double Agent, here's an example of a way to do so.


http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/MonkeySoldier5802/red_bl.gif DETECTED; MUST LOSE LINE OF SIGHT (LoS) OR KILL ENEMY TO END DETECTION. LAST KNOWN POSITION (LKP) IS SHOWN IF LoS IS LOSSED.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/MonkeySoldier5802/yell_bl.gif SEEN FROM DISTANCE; MUST QUICKLY DISAPPEAR TO AVOID DETECTION. IF SUCCESSFUL, LKP IS SHOWN & THE ENEMY INVESTIGATES.

http://trafficschoolusa.com/images/yellow_light.gifVISIBLE; FIND COVER.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/MonkeySoldier5802/green_bl.gif SEMI VISIBLE/HIDDEN; FIND BETTER COVER. MORE DIFFICULT FOR ENEMIES TO SEE PLAYER COMPARED TO VISIBLE.

http://trafficschoolusa.com/images/green_light.gifHIDDEN; GHOST.


But of course, who knows how their A.I. works and what it's based on this time around.

[KenTWOu]

I didn't get negative reaction. He said that overall player's illumination depends on illuminations of its limbs (a.k.a. bones), so it means that shadow system isn't binary. He also said that they didn't use binary Conviction black and white filter and they invest resources in AI development. So, if they'll made really complex and agile AI, stealth won't be binary at all.


I think the best thing they can do with the binary system now that they have reverted back to the light indicator is to simply just add more indication to it for the player... VISIBLE; FIND COVER
You know, they already have detection arrows for that purpose right in the center of the screen. They took them from Conviction.


I don't buy the premise that you can't "Demo Stealth". No one there obviously remembers the first 3 games which were primarly STEALTH and Chaos Theory got the highest rating of ANY Splinter Cell game. Can't "Demo Stealth"? Bull ****.
FrankieSatt, stop being ridiculous. Nobody said, that you can't demo stealth at all.

Sneaky Bastards said that stealth doesn't demo well! Patrick said that it's hard to explain stealth system and its depth during one playthrough, cause it's a very dynamic system. It's hard to explain AI complexity, you need to make several mistakes to show its different reactions. You should choose the highest difficulty, you should spend too much time messing around. You can't demo such stuff during one streamlined E3 presentation.

[SolidSage]

That was a good interview, nice info.

The demo had 6 minutes, you CAN'T show all the tech in that time if you choose to display deep stealth. Deep stealth takes a lot of time.
There was stealth in the demo though, they showed you the snake cam, hugging walls, corner peeking, abductions, slicing tents, whistling, LOS and more. They showed the Legacy fan a ton of stealth tools that a Legacy fan KNOWS they are going to be able to use for stealth. They didn't show you as much as you want of course, they have to market to everybody AND make an impact to a viewing audience.

Your specific intel is still coming. I hope it has everything you want but I doubt it will.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I can't see the pics MonkeySoldier posted haha

[KenTWOu]

Chaos Theory is harmed by the ubiquitous darkness. I do not believe and I never thought that shadow is something that helps Splinter Cell series. On the contrary, I believe that the game is because of this very childish. For me and my mate, the best example of stealth-action game is a Double Agent Xbox360/PS3/PC. Where it should be dark, is dark. Where the so-called boundary begins. human living space, the environment doesn't look like a **** basement. You have to real s-n-e-a-k-y. Don't stand in the shadow. Besides, the proposed shadow - a change of contrast in areas without lighting was very much in order. In fact, the human eye is able to do, so even if the area is very soft light source.
I think you will like this game (http://sneakybastards.net/theobserver/the-man-in-the-iron-mask/):

Dishonored’s shadows are never dark enough that the player completely disappears into them. Garrett could have a guard walk inches past his nose if it was pitch black; the same cannot happen here...

“We’re big, big fans of Thief. But in Thief, at some point you had to accept that hey, you know what, I’m invisible in the shadow even if it’s a little weird for the characters not to see me. And we tried doing playtests and felt that a lot of people were actually not sharing that. They were like, that’s kind of weird, they’re coming close to you and the NPC doesn’t see me – how come I’m invisible? Is the NPC stupid?”

“So then we went back to the whiteboard and asked, how can we fix that? And we thought of this interesting way where like, the further away you are, the more light matters. And so it kind of addresses that paradox that exists in Thief.”

[JaRuTo]

and rightly so, I'll be watching this game and Blacklist. Thanks.
Redding also good that it understands that the greatest darkness doesn't overshadow anyone if you are standing close to the form which looks in your direction.
Finally! It's about time to change that.

[shobhit7777777]

The Shadow System needs to be binary. The detection doesn't.

You are either hidden in a dark pool of shadow or you're exposed. Current gen is not smart enough to simulate silhouette camouflaging and AI visual detection. Until then the Conviction system is most accurate. What it needs is a 'Suspicious' zone...a very short amount of time when the AI suspects movement and that to in the peripheral vision.

AI should be able to detect you real quick.

[harbi-117]

Great interview, thanks for the link Sameer

Binary stealth is back... *sigh* I knew it... it's not coming back... ever
& I don't like it when the A.I got only two states (alerted / not-alerted) I want the middle layer too (suspicious state)

[mateus99]

did you guys see the new teaser for thief 4 (could be a fake)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8zQ7trMrXA&amp;feature=youtu.be
The more stealth games (hitman,dishonored,) coming out the better
Anyhow its great to hear more from this game.I like thief the only think i dont like about the games is the story and the mosters.
i just dont like that kind of stuff in a stealth game

[Andre202]

I think the best thing they can do with the binary system now that they have reverted back to the light indicator is to simply just add more indication to it for the player. It's a bit difficult to tell from the Blacklist demo but if it's anything like Double Agent, here's an example of a way to do so.


http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/MonkeySoldier5802/red_bl.gif DETECTED; MUST LOSE LINE OF SIGHT (LoS) OR KILL ENEMY TO END DETECTION. LAST KNOWN POSITION (LKP) IS SHOWN IF LoS IS LOSSED.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/MonkeySoldier5802/yell_bl.gif SEEN FROM DISTANCE; MUST QUICKLY DISAPPEAR TO AVOID DETECTION. IF SUCCESSFUL, LKP IS SHOWN & THE ENEMY INVESTIGATES.

http://trafficschoolusa.com/images/yellow_light.gifVISIBLE; FIND COVER.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/MonkeySoldier5802/green_bl.gif SEMI VISIBLE/HIDDEN; FIND BETTER COVER. MORE DIFFICULT FOR ENEMIES TO SEE PLAYER COMPARED TO VISIBLE.

http://trafficschoolusa.com/images/green_light.gifHIDDEN; GHOST.


But of course, who knows how their A.I. works and what it's based on this time around.
If you choose to have indicators to show the borders the system isn't binary anymore (yours isn't binary anymore). You have three conditions here and every condition needs to make sure it shows that you are about to break the border to another condition. Binary, in Java you would use boolean for that and with boolean you won't be able to show these borders it allows only for two conditions, but you need at least three conditions. The detection circle used in Conviction and Blacklist which warned you if you are about to be detected are also indicators and conditions. A binary system just cannot do it, because it only asks right or wrong. On, Off, but nothing more. The eyes don't work this way just as the Stealth System cannot work this way.

The meter was there to show these borders as ShadowFox pointed it out. The binary system itself is flawed because it doesn't take the real indentification of an intruder into consideration. When you use that real cool idea Shobhit suggested with the AI looking at you when you are about to break the borders. That's still not binary. If he doesn't see you, you are hidden, when he looks at you, he notice something but that doesn't mean at all that he detected you. These are already two conditions of the Stealth system and we didn't add, "investigation" known from older games and the condition "detected".

Knot3D even suggested to be able to play with the AI through the Stealth system. You would need even more conditions for that.

[michaelanjello]

If you choose to have indicators to show the borders the system isn't binary anymore (yours isn't binary anymore). You have three conditions here and every condition needs to make sure it shows that you are about to break the border to another condition. Binary, in Java you would use boolean for that and with boolean you won't be able to show these borders it allows only for two conditions, but you need at least three conditions. The detection circle used in Conviction and Blacklist which warned you if you are about to be detected are also indicators and conditions. A binary system just cannot do it, because it only asks right or wrong. On, Off, but nothing more. The eyes don't work this way just as the Stealth System cannot work this way.

The meter was there to show these borders as ShadowFox pointed it out. The binary system itself is flawed because it doesn't take the real indentification of an intruder into consideration. When you use that real cool idea Shobhit suggested with the AI looking at you when you are about to break the borders. That's still not binary. If he doesn't see you, you are hidden, when he looks at you, he notice something but that doesn't mean at all that he detected you. These are already two conditions of the Stealth system and we didn't add, "investigation" known from older games and the condition "detected".

Knot3D even suggested to be able to play with the AI through the Stealth system. You would need even more conditions for that.

Im not sure if you guys realized this, but me and sameer noticed that theres only 2 states when it comes to light and shadow detection. If youre in light, the green light on youre back, opsat and goggles doesnt glow, while if youre in darkness it does. Thats what I see im t he demo, and it even makes sense because its realistic. A light would glow in the dark.

[Andre202]

Im not sure if you guys realized this, but me and sameer noticed that theres only 2 states when it comes to light and shadow detection. If youre in light, the green light on youre back, opsat and goggles doesnt glow, while if youre in darkness it does. Thats what I see im t he demo, and it even makes sense because its realistic. A light would glow in the dark.

I was explaining why the binary system just doesn't work. The light on your back glows, now you need an indicator to know when you are not really hidden. When you are at the borders you need to know that. This isn't possible with a binary system. You can sure as hell say hidden is one condition, but not hidden has much more conditions and more aspects you need to take into consideration. If you break the notice border you go back to hidden to avoid that you will break another border which leads to you being detected as an intruder and not something else.

[The_5_Freedoms]

I remember playing another game with a binary shadow system... it was a flash game on Newgrounds.

The shadow system shouldn't be binary. It just shouldn't. What Double Agent Xbox 360 and Conviction did was a regression, not a progression. Although, Conviction can be excused because Old Conviction apparently did not have a system for using shadows to hide in.

It's like the Black and White when you enter the shadows. It sounds great on paper, but once you get playing you realise just how awkward and shallow it is, especially in the (lack of) transition from being completely hidden to completely visible.

Also, being able to remain completely hidden from enemies in the shadow of a patio table umbrella is just ridiculous.

[Andre202]

It's like the Black and White when you enter the shadows. It sounds great on paper, but once you get playing you realise just how awkward and shallow it is, especially in the (lack of) transition from being completely hidden to completely visible.
Exactly!

Human Eye works this way:
http://www.pixelplow.de/html/pixelplow/g/tutorial/pics/783_KosmischeBlume1.jpg



Not like this:
http://www.f1-tickets.org/images/flaggen/schwarz-weiss-karierte-flagge.jpg

[JaRuTo]

I remember playing another game with a binary shadow system... it was a flash game on Newgrounds.

The shadow system shouldn't be binary. It just shouldn't. What Double Agent Xbox 360 and Conviction did was a regression, not a progression. Although, Conviction can be excused because Old Conviction apparently did not have a system for using shadows to hide in.

It's like the Black and White when you enter the shadows. It sounds great on paper, but once you get playing you realise just how awkward and shallow it is, especially in the (lack of) transition from being completely hidden to completely visible.

Also, being able to remain completely hidden from enemies in the shadow of a patio table umbrella is just ridiculous.
In real life there is no such thing as a completely hidden in the shadows because even up close you can be spotted if you don't hide behind a decent barrier and thus avoid the sight.
Have you ever played in the game as a child called hide and seek at night?

[Andre202]

In real life there is no such thing as a completely hidden in the shadows because even up close you can be spotted if you don't hide behind a decent barrier and thus avoid the sight.
Have you ever played in the game as a child called hide and seek at night?
But you know the person and you know he/she is hiding. A guard wouldn't expect anyone in every dark place. If he would, he would freak out.

[sameer_monier]

But you know the person and you know he/she is hiding. A guard wouldn't expect anyone in every dark place. If he would, he would freak out.
Exactly what happens in SCC when you are standing in Dark Cover and a guard passes you by LOL

[Andre202]

I mean that he would be frightened to work at night or look in every conner (which they do when they are alerted). In Conviction they don't look in every conner before they are alerted.

[sameer_monier]

I mean that he would be frightened to work at night or look in every conner (which they do when they are alerted). In Conviction they don't look in every conner before they are alerted.
I know, if this was real life I would never want to be a guard :D

[JaRuTo]

But you know the person and you know he/she is hiding. A guard wouldn't expect anyone in every dark place. If he would, he would freak out.
Good point, but this doesn't preclude the fact that the greatest darkness should not feel safe.
This is hypocrisy and the three SC parts of the system was maintained. Look at the Speedrun videos. It is so ridiculous to look like someone sneaky as close to the guard and he doesn't even notice it he is there.

[CamberGreber]

Alot of the problem with Sam standing in a semi dark area and not being seen will be fixed as we move further down the Next-Gen Highway towards total light simulation.

Even know lighting in the previous SC was really good it can't compare to the far more realistic lighting that's been imployed since 2008.

Where not all the way there yet but the lighting in levels is getting less and less baked in. Meaning in the future or maybe even soon (SCB) when Sam is in darkness he will really not be seen.
With the exception of the trademark Glowing Goggles of course.

The only reason the developers couldn't get him to fully disappear is cause the Background are Rendered on a seperate pass than Sam who is Lit by a different light not the one illuminating his environment that one is baked (not interactive).

The Question of whether of not it's realistic too have a bunch of levels covered in darkness or constant light outages is up to the individual players.
I for one love the Visual Theme of Chiaroscuro in the Splinter Cell series it is also a trademark of this series and should remain.

[Andre202]

Do you mean deferred lighting?


Good point, but this doesn't preclude the fact that the greatest darkness should not feel safe. .

Well, I never felt save when a soldier was a few centimeters away from me. That's where the tension was always coming from. But we also shouldn't question it much, otherwise we would declare the core gameplay feature from Splinter Cell as stupid, which doesn't make sense to someone who likes Splinter Cell.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Whatever anyone thinks about how the lighting should work, I think everyone agrees that there needs to be a warning to how visible you are.

The main problem lies with the fact that you cannot rely on the actual graphical shading of the environment to tell you how deep a shadow is, or where it actually ends.

If you can't rely on that, you need some other graphical indicator to tell you 'Oi, this isn't safe as the environment is telling you, you should be hiding better or else you're gonna get spotted'

[Andre202]

Exactly, but I would want the enemy still to be able to notice something instead of turning from calm to alarmed. The complete investigation part is missing. You aren't able to play with the AI til you get spotted and wait 3 minutes til they "investigate" while they actually know you are there and have their flashlights on.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

In real life there is no such thing as a completely hidden in the shadows because even up close you can be spotted if you don't hide behind a decent barrier and thus avoid the sight.
Have you ever played in the game as a child called hide and seek at night?

Have you ever played the old games. Even in total darkness (a ghosts shadow) if an enemy gets too close (not even bumping into you) they will see you and begin attacking. Couple this with the fact that they aren't LOOKING for anyone as they would be in hide n seek, they have no idea so even with the adjustment to the dark, they still wouldn't be paying attention to the environment, the darkness like that. A guard would be looking for out people on the cameras or watching out for a break in -- not someone sneaking around in the shadows. Hence the bank break in is a perfect example from CT -- those guards are expecting a classic break in -- a robbery, a bank robbery....not one guy going in and hiding in the shadows and doing....a bank burglary. (robbery is when someone is threatened into giving up property, burglary is where the item is stolen without the persons knowledge until later)

[DeafAtheist]

From the interview:


I love stealth, but I also know that, having gone back and re-played all the Splinter Cells recently, that the super fragile, brittle, insta-fail model where one tiny degree off and you’ve got to go back to the checkpoint – that’s punishing, that’s abusive, it’s not an accessible mode of stealth. Even for the people that love stealth games.

We’ve introduced new archetypes and a whole new suite of behaviours so that even in situations that require the player to go undetected – and those moments exist in our game – we’re doing it in a way where, if the player starts to screw up, they can salvage the situation. They can save the day, and silence whoever they’re dealing with, and get back to the stealth.

Like the idea of stealth missions. But while I can totally understand how inaccessible the legacy games were with the failure system and how punishing it was I DO miss that type of gameplay because it made the success of getting through it that much more rewarding. It's rare in gaming today where you find a game or even a single mission in a game that is so brutal that when you finally get through it you feel a true sense of accomplishment. In Splinter Cell Conviction I went through taking everyone out I possibly could by hand. I used the M&E feature to track the enemy positions, but often found myself in situations where I was caught and shot at and resorted to just pressing Y and executing the marks. As cool as it is to be some super agent who can just pew pew pew and bodies drop it's really not as rewarding as something with more challenge. So if I found myself in those position in Conviction often I would reset the last checkpoint myself even if I hadn't failed because to me that WAS a failure.

[Andre202]

I thought the only games that had really this punishing model were the first two SAR and PT. After that you didn't have to load up the checkpoint, but a lot did it anyway because it broke their immersion of being a spy. Not necessarily because they wanted to have a 100% rating. You look for that rating after you have replayed the game several times and you could bring it back to the Realistic difficulty mode. You could just as well bring back the punishing consequences you get when you do make a mistake through an additional difficulty mode called Splinter Cell. :D

[bluewolf042000]

Have you ever played the old games. Even in total darkness (a ghosts shadow) if an enemy gets too close (not even bumping into you) they will see you and begin attacking. Couple this with the fact that they aren't LOOKING for anyone as they would be in hide n seek, they have no idea so even with the adjustment to the dark, they still wouldn't be paying attention to the environment, the darkness like that. A guard would be looking for out people on the cameras or watching out for a break in -- not someone sneaking around in the shadows. Hence the bank break in is a perfect example from CT -- those guards are expecting a classic break in -- a robbery, a bank robbery....not one guy going in and hiding in the shadows and doing....a bank burglary. (robbery is when someone is threatened into giving up property, burglary is where the item is stolen without the persons knowledge until later)

Not really. I would laugh really hard at the ridiculousness of the situation when I would be literally INCHES in front of them and they wouldn't say anything. Heck, in Chaos Theory their heads would actually move and stare at you.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Totally agree with you DeafAtheist!

It is so rare to be challenged these days.

There is an enjoyment factor to pulling off a REALLY slick M&E, but the buzz wears off quickly. I also find it's not rewarding in any sense because there's no investment of effort into it.

Essentially, when playing for stealth getting found is failure/game-over.
It might not be for Sam Fisher in real life situations, but when playing to not get found, that is the case.

Hence why I generally always retry when I'm spotted.

But daaaamn was that irritating in Conviction....

Having to go back out to the main menu, restart the map and then sit through cut-scenes and quick-time events?

BLEH!

[Andre202]

Having to go back out to the main menu, restart the map and then sit through cut-scenes and quick-time events?

BLEH!

God, I hate this...

[DeafAtheist]

In real life there is no such thing as a completely hidden in the shadows because even up close you can be spotted if you don't hide behind a decent barrier and thus avoid the sight.
Have you ever played in the game as a child called hide and seek at night?


Have you ever played the old games. Even in total darkness (a ghosts shadow) if an enemy gets too close (not even bumping into you) they will see you and begin attacking. Couple this with the fact that they aren't LOOKING for anyone as they would be in hide n seek, they have no idea so even with the adjustment to the dark, they still wouldn't be paying attention to the environment, the darkness like that. A guard would be looking for out people on the cameras or watching out for a break in -- not someone sneaking around in the shadows. Hence the bank break in is a perfect example from CT -- those guards are expecting a classic break in -- a robbery, a bank robbery....not one guy going in and hiding in the shadows and doing....a bank burglary. (robbery is when someone is threatened into giving up property, burglary is where the item is stolen without the persons knowledge until later)


Also with Sam wearing all black that helps him blend into the darkness. Also guards were mostly in lighted area and therefore did not have their eyes adjusted to the darkness It's like trying to look out your window at night while the lights are on in your home. You can't see anything. In order to better see what is out the window you have to turn off the light in the room you're in One thing I liked about Conviction's use of the black and white filter is that it does kind of give you the impression of being in the dark and how one's eyes adjust to the darkness. It did kind of suck seeing black and white for 90% of the game but the idea behind it was good in theory just kinda sucked in practice.

So I had no problems with believing that Sam could sit 2 feet away in the shadows from a guard who was standing in the light, but it was the guards that were in the dark as well that I had more difficulty with believing that they couldn't see Sam, because even without night vision goggles once you've been in the dark for a few minutes you're eyes adjust and you can see better in the dark.

[DeafAtheist]

Well if the indication of whether you are hidden or not isn't represented in a form of a spectrum like, the more you are into the dark shadows the more the HUD is turning black, the more you go out of the dark shadows it turns back to it's normal colour. But since it seems to be binary when it comes to the visuals of the stealthmeter like the bright green when being hidden and otherwise not, you won't be able to tell when you are inbetween something and I think Patrick did mention that problem. The B/W filter just turned on and off but you never know where exactly it would change it's status. Such systems only allow for binary reactions of the AI. You cannot expect from the player to see whether you are completely hidden or just partly. The Stealthmeter in previous games helped there and therefore allowed for multiple AI reactions because people knew where there is the inbetween, the greyzone and so the Devs can expect from the player to take care of that.

Another problem is that Binary Stealth is somekind of LoS Stealth (Line of Sight). B/W you are in cover, Colour you are visible not hiding behind something. If you compare them, their AI reactions are completely the same.


Didn't the 360 version of DA with the light meter on the back turn yellow when Sam was not completely hidden? Red for exposed... green for hidden... yellow for in between?

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

No, it was red for spotted, yellow for exposed and green for hidden.

So you would be in LoS and creeping towards the end of a shadow, trying to sneak a few inches and you'd have "green, green, green, yell...RED!"

Irritation Station!

[Andre202]

Didn't the 360 version of DA with the light meter on the back turn yellow when Sam was not completely hidden? Red for exposed... green for hidden... yellow for in between?
Nope. You had to rely a bit on the visuals of the game. Yellow actually meant not hidden, but if you were still near to the "green area" the AI reactions were as you would get them in older games in between hidden and not hidden. So the player wasn't always detected when the lightmeter showed yellow. If you are not hidden at all and you are standing under a light source the game still shows yellow in the lightmeter and if someone detects you it shows red. So while yellow allowed for these invistigation reactions I wouldn't say it was this in between as in previous games.

[DeafAtheist]

Blah, Blah, Blah.

All talk and no action means absolutely ****. I don't buy the premise that you can't "Demo Stealth". No one there obviously remembers the first 3 games which were primarly STEALTH and Chaos Theory got the highest rating of ANY Splinter Cell game. Can't "Demo Stealth"? Bull ****.

You can't do it because people get bored with it. When they have demoed stealth in the past people actually got up and left rather than sitting through the demo. So while it is possible to demo stealth it doesn't appeal to the broader audience. No one outside of the stealth gaming niche wants to sit and watch a video where Sam is sneaking around and avoiding guards. It's boring for most people to watch. That is what they mean by they can't demo stealth.

However, what they SHOULD have done is made stealth video for the stealth fans to watch separate from the E3 demo. Even if they used the same demo mission shown in E3. It would have been nice for us to see an alternate route where guards are avoided. Would be nice to have seen Sam move a body and use more gadgets as well as show a non-lethal engagement. So I can totally understand why they showed an action demo for E3. I just wish they had prepared a stealth demo for the fans outside of E3. I'm sure they will get to it eventually... just would have been nice if it was shown around the same time as E3 so they wouldn't have had to resort to PR damage control and console the stealth fans that it's not just another Conviction.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Also with Sam wearing all black that helps him blend into the darkness. Also guards were mostly in lighted area and therefore did not have their eyes adjusted to the darkness It's like trying to look out your window at night while the lights are on in your home. You can't see anything. In order to better see what is out the window you have to turn off the light in the room you're in One thing I liked about Conviction's use of the black and white filter is that it does kind of give you the impression of being in the dark and how one's eyes adjust to the darkness. It did kind of suck seeing black and white for 90% of the game but the idea behind it was good in theory just kinda sucked in practice.

So I had no problems with believing that Sam could sit 2 feet away in the shadows from a guard who was standing in the light, but it was the guards that were in the dark as well that I had more difficulty with believing that they couldn't see Sam, because even without night vision goggles once you've been in the dark for a few minutes you're eyes adjust and you can see better in the dark.

When the enemies are searching for you in the dark, it is harder to believe they couldnt see you as eyes do adjust but heres the thing -- you're wearing black...if there is movement and your eyes have adjusted...youd see the movement...but sam in theory is moving slowly making it harder to see. Plus...in PITCH BLACK...you really cant see that well even once adjusted...we can see maybe a couple inches in front of our face max. So really, if Sam was totally silent and barely moved...and stayed out of the VERY small zone the enemy could see. The main concern is that after they were alerted...it'd be hard for them not to here the soft patter of boots taking a step. But we can chalk that up to Sam being light on his foot and being literally a SIGINT ninja so thats not really an issue either. So yeah.

Oh and UbiZack said a stealthrough of the E3 demo is on the way...I dont understand why they cant whip one up and get it released like...at least by now but whatever...I'm trusting them...for now.

[DeafAtheist]

“We’re big, big fans of Thief. But in Thief, at some point you had to accept that hey, you know what, I’m invisible in the shadow even if it’s a little weird for the characters not to see me. And we tried doing playtests and felt that a lot of people were actually not sharing that. They were like, that’s kind of weird, they’re coming close to you and the NPC doesn’t see me – how come I’m invisible? Is the NPC stupid?”

That paragraph just cracked me up. Stealth gamer humor.

[CovertOwl]

This interview has eased alot of my concerns. I am so glad that Redding is in charge. He is a true stealth gamer.

[JaRuTo]

Have you ever played the old games. Even in total darkness (a ghosts shadow) if an enemy gets too close (not even bumping into you) they will see you and begin attacking. Couple this with the fact that they aren't LOOKING for anyone as they would be in hide n seek, they have no idea so even with the adjustment to the dark, they still wouldn't be paying attention to the environment, the darkness like that. A guard would be looking for out people on the cameras or watching out for a break in -- not someone sneaking around in the shadows. Hence the bank break in is a perfect example from CT -- those guards are expecting a classic break in -- a robbery, a bank robbery....not one guy going in and hiding in the shadows and doing....a bank burglary. (robbery is when someone is threatened into giving up property, burglary is where the item is stolen without the persons knowledge until later)
I am not concerned about such discovery where you come too close a distance of 1 d.a.m.n meter - in this case, surely you will sense, lol. I mean a much greater distance where you should already see 5 meters in complete shadow. Artificial intelligence in old games are so stupid that he can't detect from a distance enemy because it was programmed so and not otherwise.
Hiding in the shadows is the weakest part of the old Splinter Cell and other stealth games, except Metal Gear Solid .


Also with Sam wearing all black that helps him blend into the darkness. Also guards were mostly in lighted area and therefore did not have their eyes adjusted to the darkness It's like trying to look out your window at night while the lights are on in your home. You can't see anything. In order to better see what is out the window you have to turn off the light in the room you're in One thing I liked about Conviction's use of the black and white filter is that it does kind of give you the impression of being in the dark and how one's eyes adjust to the darkness. It did kind of suck seeing black and white for 90% of the game but the idea behind it was good in theory just kinda sucked in practice.

So I had no problems with believing that Sam could sit 2 feet away in the shadows from a guard who was standing in the light, but it was the guards that were in the dark as well that I had more difficulty with believing that they couldn't see Sam, because even without night vision goggles once you've been in the dark for a few minutes you're eyes adjust and you can see better in the dark.
Everything would be all right if only the light we had not seen, but no... He doesn't see us even when it is in complete darkness!

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Thats not true. In SAR if they come up to me in complete shadow about a meter away -- they see me and begin firing and the fight music begins. But that's the thing...in complete darkness your eyes will adjust but only to what's immediately in front of you and only BARELY. Our eyes will be able to make out objects so the fact that they know we're an enemy is impressive...maybe I'm wrong but turn off all lights late at night, make sure no lights are nearby outside and shine in even a little and then navigate your way through the darkness -- you will find it difficult to know where the couch is even when you know the layout to your own home. I guarantee that unless practiced, you will bump into a couch or a chair or a table or a shelf or SOMETHING because it's hard to see. Once you've bumped into it, you will most likely look and you will then start to make out the object -- you will see no color, you may not even see the full shape if it's a couch but you may see a part of it vaguely

[JaRuTo]

When a person is accustomed to the darkness will see the outlines of objects quite well, not in color, right,,, but there is a mass of such cases that the guard is standing in the dark and still is blind as a mole. The problem is that artificial intelligence is not so complex as you want it to be.

[sameer_monier]

From the interview:



Like the idea of stealth missions. But while I can totally understand how inaccessible the legacy games were with the failure system and how punishing it was I DO miss that type of gameplay because it made the success of getting through it that much more rewarding. It's rare in gaming today where you find a game or even a single mission in a game that is so brutal that when you finally get through it you feel a true sense of accomplishment. In Splinter Cell Conviction I went through taking everyone out I possibly could by hand. I used the M&E feature to track the enemy positions, but often found myself in situations where I was caught and shot at and resorted to just pressing Y and executing the marks. As cool as it is to be some super agent who can just pew pew pew and bodies drop it's really not as rewarding as something with more challenge. So if I found myself in those position in Conviction often I would reset the last checkpoint myself even if I hadn't failed because to me that WAS a failure.
The Last time I was pulling my hear out, screaming, breaking was at the final boss in Mortal Kombat 2011, I don't know if it was a challenge, or a stupid design, but that guy made me crazy, I spent a whole day fighting him till I was able to, and once I did it, I was like "yeaaaaaaaaaah, how you like me now ?!", so satisfying, yet tbh I don't want to ever be put in such desperate situation again :D



No, it was red for spotted, yellow for exposed and green for hidden.

So you would be in LoS and creeping towards the end of a shadow, trying to sneak a few inches and you'd have "green, green, green, yell...RED!"

Irritation Station!
Wait you actually used Shadows ?!, most of the time I had to use cover, and move step by step so the yellow turns green, I hated that system, not to mention being way away from someone in green, and hearing the sound of suspected enemy, and I am like "so my cover is blown ?!, or is he just suspicious"

BTW if there will be any soft of status report in SCB, I would rather have it in real time, I was so paranoid when playing DE:HR, not knowing if I killed someone by mistake or what not.



You can't do it because people get bored with it. When they have demoed stealth in the past people actually got up and left rather than sitting through the demo. So while it is possible to demo stealth it doesn't appeal to the broader audience. No one outside of the stealth gaming niche wants to sit and watch a video where Sam is sneaking around and avoiding guards. It's boring for most people to watch. That is what they mean by they can't demo stealth.

However, what they SHOULD have done is made stealth video for the stealth fans to watch separate from the E3 demo. Even if they used the same demo mission shown in E3. It would have been nice for us to see an alternate route where guards are avoided. Would be nice to have seen Sam move a body and use more gadgets as well as show a non-lethal engagement. So I can totally understand why they showed an action demo for E3. I just wish they had prepared a stealth demo for the fans outside of E3. I'm sure they will get to it eventually... just would have been nice if it was shown around the same time as E3 so they wouldn't have had to resort to PR damage control and console the stealth fans that it's not just another Conviction.
Totally Agree.

I don't know if you know this or not, but Zack is actually working on a Stealthrough for the same mission, no idea when we will see it though.

[mateus99]

^Really? then i cant wait for them to show it to us it would surely release o lot of the fan concerns about the game.
Cant wait for it ;)

[sameer_monier]

^Really? then i cant wait for them to show it to us it would surely release o lot of the fan concerns about the game.
Cant wait for it ;)
yup, I can't wait too :D

[JaRuTo]

Probably wait half a year yet to see some stealth vides. In your site I wouldn't be so excited ; )

[sameer_monier]

Nah I don't think it will take that long, probably on July, but not half a year.

[NightGhost1994]

Maybe at Pax

[rudomm23]

Still reading the article (thanks btw OP!) but the part...

I love stealth, but I also know that, having gone back and re-played all the Splinter Cells recently, that the super fragile, brittle, insta-fail model where one tiny degree off and you’ve got to go back to the checkpoint – that’s punishing, that’s abusive, it’s not an accessible mode of stealth. Even for the people that love stealth games.

...still get's my hope for this game lowered a lot. It's Conviction all over. Honestly someone saying they love Stealth but find real consequence to being detected too punishing doesn't love stealth. I have no other way to put it. The whole idea is that you need to be careful, on your toes and at the top of your game when doing stealth.
Too many games make stealth into a "I Win" mode as long as you have some skill. Splinter Cell 1 to 3 were the best Stealth games out there because they required you to be really stealthy. Not just "wait for someone to turn their back to you for instant kill."

I replayed SP:CT last month as well. To this day it's the best Stealth game out there (imho). Ther reason is because it is punishing and tough on you but gives you the means to get passed it anyway. I don't get these devs, it's like Dark Soul's developer saying were making the next game a bit less punishing cause whilst I love this type of game, it's really hard.... so we need to make it easier. Even fans of the game will want this.... but we don't! Or at least I don't and I know I'm not alone in this...

I still feel the same though, wether Blacklist is too much action&set pieces and Ubisoft is still trying to mask this (like with Conviction) or they actually have an amazing stealth system but have not shown it, they screwed up. You just don't make a game in a Stealth franchise (THE Stealth franchise many would say) and don't show the stealth. It just doesn't make sense.
Anyway back to reading.

[Andre202]

Well, they need to bring back the punishing consequences through the difficulty system. We know this form of stealth isn't accessible, but therefore we have that difficulty system. I wouldn't be able to imagine how you would do it otherwise. Give this game four difficulty modes and increase the consequences for doing a mistake with every higher difficulty mode. Easy, Normal, Realistic, Splinter Cell.

[rudomm23]

Well, they need to bring back the punishing consequences through the difficulty system. We know this form of stealth isn't accessible, but therefore we have that difficulty system. I wouldn't be able to imagine how you would do it otherwise. Give this game four difficulty modes and increase the consequences for doing a mistake with every higher difficulty mode. Easy, Normal, Realistic, Splinter Cell.

That I could certainly see as a viable option

[JaRuTo]

I, too, but I'm afraid that even in this matter will not listen ... I don't understand what is the problem at the highest level of difficulty to give the fans what they want? So much demand from you, Ubisoft? Yes ... I'm skeptical until such time when something happened in this case doesn't change, god**** it... and it brought back a lot of classic elements that is not enough, must support us fully If you want to be respected. Simple.

[Andre202]

We can just hope that they consequently use their design that the difficulty system influences the gameplay.
There are already hints that they are using such a design, now they need to execute the idea consequently.

[CamberGreber]

"The answer, according to the Blacklist team, is an analogue AI system capable of expressing more complex reactions than the once-typical binary AI states of “I’m bored” and “kill Fisher!”"

Sounds like we might just get that Buffer Zone we all want so Badly. :)

[Andre202]

But how do they show you are in that Buffer Zone, in that Grey Zone, in that in between?

[CamberGreber]

But how do they show you are in that Buffer Zone, in that Grey Zone, in that in between?

Hopefully they will implement a grey zone even if they omit the visual feed back too the player via light meter etc....

[coltcat]

Well, they need to bring back the punishing consequences through the difficulty system. We know this form of stealth isn't accessible, but therefore we have that difficulty system. I wouldn't be able to imagine how you would do it otherwise. Give this game four difficulty modes and increase the consequences for doing a mistake with every higher difficulty mode. Easy, Normal, Realistic, Splinter Cell.
true, theres no real punish in conviction, AIs communicating ability can be consider rubbish and really really inefficient from stopping you. since player always got 4x auto headshot.
AND in conviction, due to poor designed forced sequences the idea of AIs become more aggrassive after you've blown you cover isnt really making differents, either mostly they are already charging at you while you step in to the area (ID or not), or few times they are unable to informs AIs in other area they've engaged you so you can run through the area and get rid of them.(witch makes ghosting more of a hobby than a real option) only difficulty change players can feels clearly is the reducing of health. witch is quite useless for bring challenge into higher difficulty stealth gameplay since who ever play that way will trys their best not to get into gunfights, and might consider being ID is a failure at first place.
most reasonable punishing would be bring back old days mechanisms, a post-IDed alarms across the map to sets any new spawn AIs in more aggressive stage sweeping/blocking you. or remain/back-to calm if you didnt cause any tensions in previous area, not constantly charging at you to a point player dont even care to stay hidden anymore.
hypothetically speaking, that simple scripted alone should adds more depth in terms of punishing for stealth through, do it without AI equipment upgrading cause by alarms like in PT or CT cuz stealthers dont even want to pick a firefight anyway, and shooters can still have fair amount of fun and chance to fight through, and they should careless if AI in the area they steps in are already trys to engage him. and if a stealth player dont want to restart from CP to get to the point he got spotted, he at least had some sort of lethal mathod to deal the situation, his pistol and M&E, if he can stealth trough the level this deep he shouldnt have any problem to pull that off (btw the amounts of health AI has in expert difficulty in CT is surreally high)
for more advanced AI reaction, like CT, higher sensitive for AI would be fine, means more careful on any movement from now on, and adding their ability to chase/search player across the maps,(but not randomly spawned like in D-ops where 10 other guy just poping out of the locked door), who ever come to engage you should be the guys thats already in the level, and this should have less impact on shoot'em up gameplay cuz it would base on cleaning an area then advance to next one.
IMO giving AI more health and firepower/makes players weak and low-ammo for a more challenging experience in a stealth game is passive, players cant tells the different unless he fails to stealth. making them more agile and sensitive should be the correct and depth-ed way.

[Andre202]

Yeah the AI should definitely search more then just the small area around your LKP and it should communicate with the others. So not everyone will be in searching mode, but he asks a few guys to investigate and the others continue to make their patrols.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

The LKP ghost better beoff on higher difficulties or be an option -- its such an immersion killer for me >.<

But yes, LKP will obviously remain as it's been in every game since CT. It should be better and some enemies should continue to search while others do their normal patrol. Eventually if you're hidden enough and not detected (meaning not making a sound or anything that they can hear) one of the guys will go "What if he's already gone...?"
"What? Well no, better safe than sorry -- I don't want end up like that guy over there."
"Yeah...I guess you're right. I don't know...seems like he's gone though, not a trace. This guy's good."
"What? Does he think we're amateurs?"
"Probably, actually."
"Well, you can go ahead and stop looking if you think he's gone...just...keep an eye open and watch your back more."
"I hear ya, man."

That way one or two remain too scared to return to normal, but the others can revert to a more normal routine BUT they will peer over the shoulder from time to time and look up and around on their patrols or whatever.

[Andre202]

I don't think the conversations will be that indepth but it's a very nice way to show where the AI development could go to feel more believeable.
And in a game that allows the player to play the way he/she wants to, it allows for a lot of variations playing around with the AI.

[Andre202]

Yeah, very nice idea!

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Andrea - you reminded me of an idea I had a while ago, that was seen in past games, but not used to any great extent.

If you approach two guards talking and chose to listen in on their conversation, it should be beneficial to you to listen, if you're going to... They should reveal some sort of information about SOMETHING to help the stealth player. Similar to the way e-mails and such did, in past games. Example:

Guard 1: Hey how's it going?
Guard 2: Meh, my shoulders are sore. I need a vacation.
Guard 1: Sore? Why?
Guard 2: Three of us were up all night trying to seal off the hole in the vent shaft over by the storage room.
Guard 1: How did the hole get there?
Guard 2: I don't know, but it's still there. We don't have the right materials so we're going to wait until we can get some shipped in.
Guard 1: Well good luck with that.

It's a pretty lame example, but with time, I bet the devs could come up with some more creative ways to implement this intel idea.

It doesn't HAVE to affect the way we play - but for those who want to take their time playing, and be detailed and meticulous - the option can be there. VERSATILITY, right?

Oh yeah definitely but I also believe some conversations shouldn't help the stealth player but only immerses them into the world further. Not every email in SAR, for exmaple, talked about how they implemented a turret up later, or gave a doorcode, or talked about how they were using thermal goggles, etc. Some were simply emails from a daughter to someone about how they're scared. The CIA mission for example shows this well. Another thing is that, realistically, what are the chances that EVERY convo you heard helped you so blatantly. I like the idea, but I also think some convos should be there to just make the world feel more real. Of course you can also analyze a convo and as I suggested, see who's the more likely threat, if there is one, who's jumpier, etc.

God...the AI would be so amazing haha

[CamberGreber]

The LKP ghost better beoff on higher difficulties or be an option -- its such an immersion killer for me >.<

But yes, LKP will obviously remain as it's been in every game since CT. It should be better and some enemies should continue to search while others do their normal patrol. Eventually if you're hidden enough and not detected (meaning not making a sound or anything that they can hear) one of the guys will go "What if he's already gone...?"
"What? Well no, better safe than sorry -- I don't want end up like that guy over there."
"Yeah...I guess you're right. I don't know...seems like he's gone though, not a trace. This guy's good."
"What? Does he think we're amateurs?"
"Probably, actually."
"Well, you can go ahead and stop looking if you think he's gone...just...keep an eye open and watch your back more."
"I hear ya, man."

That way one or two remain too scared to return to normal, but the others can revert to a more normal routine BUT they will peer over the shoulder from time to time and look up and around on their patrols or whatever.

The fact that you even had to mention that in this forum scares the sh t out of me. I assumed that had already been axed.

UBI would be stupid too even inlude that LKP marker without at least the option too turn it off. You know...for people with at least half a brain.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Yeahhhh...tell me about it. When you have to fight for stealth and intelligence ina stealth game -- something clearly went wrong with the last haha

[JaRuTo]

We can just hope that they consequently use their design that the difficulty system influences the gameplay.
There are already hints that they are using such a design, now they need to execute the idea consequently.
I would be calmer if Zack informed us of this topic that he read and send our comments to Beland... because it should look like working with us - not select topics that are comfortable for Ubisoft :\

[Andre202]

I don't think they select any topics. At least Maxime doesn't make such a impression. On twitter he answers everyone he can, even people who speak pretty rude to him.
I do think that the guys there understand the reactions of the fans.

[sameer_monier]

I don't think they select any topics. At least Maxime doesn't make such a impression. On twitter he answers everyone he can, even people who speak pretty rude to him.
I do think that the guys there understand the reactions of the fans.
I respect that about him, he really is involved with the fans on twitter.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Wait Beland responds to the rude people on Twitter? I wouldn't. Or I would and I'd be like "lol." So remember that if my plans to be a creative dev/game writer/etc. come to fruition. I will laugh at people who are rude.

I think if I'm forced to appeal to the mass audience, I will always give a hardcore mode for the fans of the series. It's just something that should be done, yknow? Out of respect to the loyal fans.

[sameer_monier]

Wait Beland responds to the rude people on Twitter? I wouldn't. Or I would and I'd be like "lol." So remember that if my plans to be a creative dev/game writer/etc. come to fruition. I will laugh at people who are rude.

I think if I'm forced to appeal to the mass audience, I will always give a hardcore mode for the fans of the series. It's just something that should be done, yknow? Out of respect to the loyal fans.
Well he doesn't really respond to those who insult him, someone did, and Max replied saying that he answer any questions as long as there is respect, so he responded, and Max was amazing that he didn't insult that other guy, it really made me hate those who call themselves fans and go name calling people.

As for you dreams, well keep in mind the budget, or else you will be fired :D

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

well of course haha

I'm not meaning I'd make a mode with lots of features. It'd be like H:Absolution is doing: they've kept core gameplay but added mass appeal things such as his "instincts" but they took all that out for one game mode. Get me? I'd do that for any game where the direction was turning. GAH I have so many ideas for video games. (x

[CamberGreber]

Yah Imature fans who name call or make outrageous assumtions based on No concrete evidence GIVE USE SC FANS A BAD NAME.

[mattduck69]

The LKP ghost better beoff on higher difficulties or be an option -- its such an immersion killer for me >.<

But yes, LKP will obviously remain as it's been in every game since CT. It should be better and some enemies should continue to search while others do their normal patrol. Eventually if you're hidden enough and not detected (meaning not making a sound or anything that they can hear) one of the guys will go "What if he's already gone...?"
"What? Well no, better safe than sorry -- I don't want end up like that guy over there."
"Yeah...I guess you're right. I don't know...seems like he's gone though, not a trace. This guy's good."
"What? Does he think we're amateurs?"
"Probably, actually."
"Well, you can go ahead and stop looking if you think he's gone...just...keep an eye open and watch your back more."
"I hear ya, man."

That way one or two remain too scared to return to normal, but the others can revert to a more normal routine BUT they will peer over the shoulder from time to time and look up and around on their patrols or whatever.

yes, that would be awsome, it kind of reminded me of the 360 DA credits when the cops or whoevers say "wait, where is he" "who?,it was like nobody was here.." i really love it when they make fisher sound that badass in a stealthy way. you know what i mean? (hope that makes sense)

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Yah Imature fans who name call or make outrageous assumtions based on No concrete evidence GIVE USE SC FANS A BAD NAME.

This. You'd think classic SC fans would be a bit more thoughtful and methodical with their approach to criticizing and giving ideas.

[CamberGreber]

This. You'd think classic SC fans would be a bit more thoughtful and methodical with their approach to criticizing and giving ideas.

Yah there not gonna listen to us otherwise. If I was Zack I would skip over posts that express that level of immaturity and lack of self control.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Indeed. Smh...people should know better haha

[CovertOwl]

I think if I'm forced to appeal to the mass audience, I will always give a hardcore mode for the fans of the series. It's just something that should be done, yknow? Out of respect to the loyal fans.

this

[rudomm23]

What a sad thing gaming has become now that it's all about the green and everyone wanting to be CoD. Every game is turning into the same game. We might as well start games by their genre now as so little is setting them apart. Appealing to a broader audience = Making every game the same.

I can see E3 2015 already. Hello welcome to The Conference. Here is Shooter 1 by Ubisoft starring Sam Fisher in the Middle East. Now we have Shooter 2 by Epic starring some generic Marine in the Middle East! Here is Action Adventure 3 by Crystal Dynamics starring the female version of Nathan Drake in the Middle East. And now Action Adventure 4 by Naughty Dog starring the male version of Lara Croft in the Middle East. Here is Shooter 3 by 343 Studios starring a less generic Marine in the Middle East quadrant of Space......... To end this awesome Conference we end it with the game that started it all Shooter 17 by Infinity Ward about a group of generic elites fighting in the Middle East.

Here is what all these games will feature: A great cover system, big set pieces, rollercoaster-ride feeling, regenerating health, waypoints on screen, tactical loading screens, loads of Arabs to shoot as obviously they are always the bad guys now that Russian and Germans are passé and a storyline noone cares about! Also coming DLC map packs for the awesome MP modes featuring a broad leveling system and weapon customization!

[Andre202]

Just a random note:

Could you make more interviews with Sneaky Bastards? They ask very good questions.
Like an interview roundup with all the "important" persons from the Blacklist dev team.

[sameer_monier]

Just a random note:

Could you make more interviews with Sneaky Bastards? They ask very good question.
Like an interview roundup with all the "important" persons from the Blacklist dev team.
Very True Andre, I liked how the pressed on the whole Binary Stealth System, and the Goggles.

I hope we can get more out of SneakyBastards in General for every stealth game.

[The_5_Freedoms]

Exactly!

Human Eye works this way:
http://www.pixelplow.de/html/pixelplow/g/tutorial/pics/783_KosmischeBlume1.jpg



Not like this:
http://www.f1-tickets.org/images/flaggen/schwarz-weiss-karierte-flagge.jpg
Exactly. And shadows should not work like this:

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/8544979/640/8544979.jpg (http://picturepush.com/public/8544979)

With this system there are only two states: completely visible (in light) and completely invisible (in shadow).

Now this is where things start getting silly. For this to happen there has to be a line where the two, complete light and complete shadow, meet. Now what happens when you're standing directly on that line? Are you half-visible and half-invisible?

No, that wouldn't work because the system won't allow it. So you're either completely visible or completely invisible... and as you can see in the bottom left and top right pictures that should not be possible because the shadow is obviously not dark enough.

So how do we solve this? Push back invisibility to the darker shadows? No, that doesn't work either because you end up with less shadows to hide in (the lighter ones providing no invisibility at all) and you still end up with the ridiculous idea that there is a line between complete invisibility and complete visibility.

In previous games there was varied visibility (a spectrum of shadows) and you could see shadows with varying darkness. Some shadows were so shallow that you didn't need night vision goggles and enemies would see you if they were standing less than five feet away. Other shadows were so deep that all you could see were Sam's goggles and the light on his back -- you actually needed to turn on night vision to see what you were doing.

And then there were the shadows in between. The ones that were so shallow yet so dark that enemies who "saw" you did not know what they had seen -- only that they had seen something and were going to investigate.

In Conviction, you can hide in a ridiculously low amount of shadow and be completely invisible to the enemy because it is equal to even the most darkest shadow. The only way they can detect you standing still is if they walk on top of you.

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8545078/640/8545078.jpg (http://picturepush.com/public/8545078)

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8545083/640/8545083.jpg (http://picturepush.com/public/8545083)

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/8545089/640/8545089.jpg (http://picturepush.com/public/8545089)

That is a fail.

The shadow system in Double Agent Xbox 360 was also a fail because it was exactly like this, only instead of having a black and white filter to indicate you were in darkness it had a green light (with a yellow light to indicate you were visible). But at least enemies didn't always identify you as an intruder if they "saw" you in light (yellow light). If they were a fair distance away and they saw you, they would become suspicious and move closer to investigate. If that happened in Conviction (screen is in colour) you would alert the enemy (the white arrow would turn to red DETECTED) and they would freak out... that is, if they saw you from that far away.

<aside>I think the range of view (how far they could "see") was reduced from Double Agent to Conviction, not necessarily a bad thing -- just an observation. In previous games some enemies had eyes that would rival that of an eagle's. Also, Conviction's enemies need to audibly alert their friends to the intruder instead of previous games where every enemy on the map received a telepathic message of your position.</aside>

That is Xbox 360 Double Agent's saving grace, the AI compensates for the binary shadow system. But that still doesn't make it acceptable and it shouldn't be. The other five games had shadow systems way better than it and Double Agent Xbox 360 (as well as Conviction) was supposed to be innovating it, not deteriorating it.

TL;DR

It's like people saying that there should only be action or there should only be stealth, you can't have both extremes with nothing in between because then you have no depth. A binary shadow system literally has no depth -- just look at the picture again and see how the smallest amount of shade can make you completely invisible. There's realism, there's realish (thanks SolidSage)... and then there's ridiculous. That is ridiculous.

[shobhit7777777]

TL;DR

It's like people saying that there should only be action or there should only be stealth, you can't have both extremes with nothing in between because then you have no depth. A binary shadow system literally has no depth -- just look at the picture again and see how the smallest amount of shade can make you completely invisible. There's realism, there's realish (thanks SolidSage)... and then there's ridiculous. That is ridiculous.


The Shadow stealth system in SCC was nowhere near perfect and had the most unbelivable of hide-able shadows out of all the SC games. The game needs a buffer zone between hidden and detected.
That said, the AI reaction times and recognition times should be retained and amped up with an investigative mode.

The buffer zone needs to be really small however....as it needs to reflect Human-like reactions from the AI, something which the meter-based system failed at by making it far too easy to avoid guards when they were busy going "Whats that?" at a human crouch running 20 feet ahead of them.

Binary shadows reflect how it would work in real life:

1- You are hidden completely in a deep dark pool of shadow. You are invisible to the naked eye
0- You are partially hidden or exposed....if partially hidden the amount of lighting will affect the detection/recognition time...if exposed- alarm.

Conviction needs more believable shadows and desperately needs to add in a buffer zone in tune with the White crescent marker...
the White marker denotes the time it will take for the AI to detect something (In state 0) and then investigate it.

This way it retains the depth of the shadow system in legacy games..yet makes hiding in shadows more realistic and believable, thanks to sharper AI detection parameters - A hybrid of SCC and Legacy systems


P.S

And for the sake of all that is holy, UBI...PLEASE make the Guards sensitive to sound.

[Andre202]

Binary shadows reflect how it would work in real life:

1- You are hidden completely in a deep dark pool of shadow. You are invisible to the naked eye
0- You are partially hidden or exposed....if partially hidden the amount of lighting will affect the detection/recognition time...if exposed- alarm.
While 1 is one clear condition, 0 seems to have several conditions. Two variables two conditions, that's what binary is.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

While 1 is one clear condition, 0 seems to have several conditions. Two variables two conditions, that's what binary is.

He wants the benefits of a meter-based system...but designed to appear as if it's binary. I don't get it. You're not just hidden or exposed. Again I will say

Let's picture a room with some lights and one comfy chair in the corner. Now let's pretend you enter and absolutely no light is entering the room -- complete darkness. Even if you opened the door, the light would flood in through the strip caused by the open door -- the rest will be pitch black. Once you enter, your eyes will adjust....barely. You may be able to see immediately in front of you -- perhaps not even a foot in front of you. That is complete darkness. Invisible essentially unless the enemy walks right into you.

Now depending on if and where we place a light, the chair in the corner will become more visible. There are pitch black shadows, then slightly less than pitch black, and so on and so on. You will go from saying "i cant see anything in those shadows" to "is something there? I cant tell..." to "i think something is there..i can kind of make it out..." to "there is SOMEthing there...no idea what..." to "is that...what is that thing?" to "i think thats a chair..." to "oh look, a chair."

It all depends on the lighting and shadows. You wouldn't go from "I can't anything in those shadows" to "INTRUDER!" It's not that simple. Note how each of those represent an area on the original light meter. The first two are essentially a ghost's shadow...the reason why the second is like "is there something?" is because that'd be if you were LOOKING for something. If you wouldnt, you would more than likely glance over with not a thought. The next two would be where youre in semi-dark shadows but enough light hits you to warrant suspicion -- the middle of the meter in other words. The last ones are basically the end of the meter.

The meter is the best way to dostealth. Even the original xbox version of DA, while still a meter (thank god) is not as useful as SAR/PT/CT's version because it slowly builds up but you don't see the "spectrum" it just starts to build and you gotta get back in shadows. With the visible BAR meter, you can tell the difference. But DA's lightmeter is so much better than the 360 version or SCC's binary system.

[Andre202]

I know that he wants. A binary system! I am not really getting it either.

Stealthmeters:
Yeah and with a higher difficulty they pulled up the bar so the areas you can hide are smaller and the reactions of the enemies will trigger a lot faster. And when you dig deeper you could add up silhouette recognition for the AI where you would need to consider the surfaces you are sneaking around. If you have a black wetsuit but the surface (the wall) is white the AI might notice you a lot better. But the sad thing about this idea is that we might never get such an indepth system again.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I know that he wants. A binary system! I am not really getting it either.

Stealthmeters:
Yeah and with a higher difficulty they pulled up the bar so the areas you can hide are smaller and the reactions of the enemies will trigger a lot faster. And when you dig deeper you could add up silhouette recognition for the AI where you would need to consider the surfaces you are sneaking around. If you have a black wetsuit but the surface (the wall) is white the AI might notice you a lot better. But the sad thing about this idea is that we might never get such an indepth system again.

There are so many ways they could up the ante with the classic stealth system:

- Silhouette recognition
- Weather effects (which AFFECT the gameplay, i.e. footprints in snow, leaving muddy footprints in rain and after stepping in mud, intense winds/blizzards/storms would make you have to compensate when aiming, etc.)
- Increased sound recognition: when Lambert talks to you, before you reply, you have to be away from enemies before Sam will respond (this may just be awkward and annoying)
- so many other things as well

[michaelanjello]

To be honest, I think there is only ONE way to do the light and shadow thing realistically. And I actually think that Blacklist is going to implement it since it isnt tough and its the only simple yet realistic way.

Although SC1-3 had variable shadow systems, they werent always realistic. THis is how I think the shadows should work.

1. Shadows are not going to be a method for hiding anymore, theyre going to be a way for the player to stay undetected for longer depending on the distance of the enemy. WHen an enemy is far and youre in a light shadow, then theyll have a tougher time detecting you from that distance. Up close, you are caught.

2. The only time you will be safe in a shadow is if its pitch black darkness and a guard is more that 1-2 meters away. Otherwise, you get caught

3. Line of Sight will play a much greater roll since in real life, ALL STEALTH is "line of sight". You are invisible as long as the enemy is blind. SO the shadows will be just an "aid" for you to have a better chance at not being seen by an enemy. Depending on the "darkness" of the shadow, and the distance of enemy AI, theres a chance you'll get spotted, or you wont.

Not only is this the simplest solution, it is also the most realistic feeling solution. It will also tie in very well in Spy V Merc, since the system is very natural. Plus, players wont be up against a wall 2 feet from a guard in light shadow and not get caught. (its on a WHOLE NOTHA LEVEL!)

[michaelanjello]

In addition to my above post^. I would like to say, the game is not very immersive when you have to check your light meter every few seconds, or if you keep shimming those few cm over just to get saturated into a black and white screen. In real life.... most of the time, you dont even know if youre concealed or not. Because to you it may seem obvious that you are revealed, and to others you may be fully hidden(or not), thats why the player has to decide when to move, and move when a guard doesnt see you, or isnt looking. You have to chose the right time to strike and move. Its all about player choice and skill. YOU GUYS WANT A HARDCORE STEALTH GAME. SO.... why have that aid that tells you how stealthy you are? Its harcore...you have to make these choices on your own.

[mattduck69]

it would be awsome is the devs could pull that off BUT (and no disrespect to the devs) i doubt they could .I have no idea now hard it is to create light meters and shadows for a game but im sure they can do it? If they just add the light meter i will be satisfied....oh and an awsome variable speed(thats my main thing i want in the game :D .

[Ristar85]

In addition to my above post^. I would like to say, the game is not very immersive when you have to check your light meter every few seconds, or if you keep shimming those few cm over just to get saturated into a black and white screen. In real life.... most of the time, you dont even know if youre concealed or not. Because to you it may seem obvious that you are revealed, and to others you may be fully hidden(or not), thats why the player has to decide when to move, and move when a guard doesnt see you, or isnt looking. You have to chose the right time to strike and move. Its all about player choice and skill. YOU GUYS WANT A HARDCORE STEALTH GAME. SO.... why have that aid that tells you how stealthy you are? Its harcore...you have to make these choices on your own.

yep, now THAT would be really exciting. add in randomness as well, coz in ALL SC games, the AI is TOO predictable.

and add in the function where the AI can see silhouette like in real life, and u'll have a fantastic stealth game. one more thing, the AI's view is too narrow, irl, people have this thing called "peripheral vision", and when they turn their heads, it actually affects wat they see, unlike the AI in the game.

i remember sneaking up on people in real life (to tap on their shoulder, nothing sinister), u'll never know when u'll be found or when the target will turn around. gotta take great care in the footwork as well. great fun.

but i think they'd sooner include the gunsmith from GRFS than do that. hell, is there even stealth in SCB?

[shobhit7777777]

@Bob@Andre

This is what I want:

The 0 stage represents a zone where you WILL get detected and get detected quick...like in Conviction EXCEPT there is a buffer zone of an Investigation routine. dependent on the distance of the AI to the player, the offset from his central visual axis (a straight line from the AI's head) and the percentage of the Character's body being illumintated

I'll elaborate the stages further:

State 1: HIDDEN. You are in a believable, dark shadow and will not be detected unless the AI flashes your hiding spot with a torch or is really close (2m)

State 0: VISIBLE. This state applies to both light shadows and complete light. The difference is that in a light shadow (depending on distance, % of illumination and offset) the RECOGNITION time would be higher than in complete light (obsiously)
The Recognition time would be represented by the classic Conviction Crescent Marker shown below:

http://www.1up.com/flat/MyCheats/splintercellconvict/price/price010.jpg

The duration of the marker (Recognition time) would be dependant on the aforementioned factors

Now this where Conviction's AI detection failed miserably...a believable reaction to a non threatening stimuli....instead of investigation...they switched directly to ALERT.

I have two proposals for this:

1. In this system, the Investigation Cycle begins WITH the white marker...The AI will look towards the player more carefully, bring up it's weapon and walk towards the player's spot...with the Marker denoting the time it will take for the AI to recognize the player (As the AI does all the above) If the player manages to avoid detection...then the Marker disappears (AI loses direct LOS) BUT continues a search of the immediate area before returning to patrol.
The White Marker in conjunction with the coresponding AI behaviour and animations

2. The White Marker is simply the recognition timer and shows how long the player has before the AI starts an investigative routine.
White Marker-> Investigative routine starts
Now we can add layers over this simple system:

1. Check in: While in Investigative mode, the AI will check in with the nearby guards to let them know that they are checking something out....neutralizing one the investigator BEFORE he gives the all clear would lead to a raise suspicion level for the entire AI team.

2. AI Archetypes: Different AI types would have different investigative routines and procedures. The low level thugs would not bother checking in before investigating, allowing you to take them out. The Pros would first shine a spotlight at where they think they saw something...forcing the player to change position quickly.

Basically a short and sweet investigative routine which makes hiding in shadows more believable

[Ristar85]

@Bob@Andre

This is what I want:

The 0 stage represents a zone where you WILL get detected and get detected quick...like in Conviction EXCEPT there is a buffer zone of an Investigation routine. dependent on the distance of the AI to the player, the offset from his central visual axis (a straight line from the AI's head) and the percentage of the Character's body being illumintated

I'll elaborate the stages further:

State 1: HIDDEN. You are in a believable, dark shadow and will not be detected unless the AI flashes your hiding spot with a torch or is really close (2m)

State 0: VISIBLE. This state applies to both light shadows and complete light. The difference is that in a light shadow (depending on distance, % of illumination and offset) the RECOGNITION time would be higher than in complete light (obsiously)
The Recognition time would be represented by the classic Conviction Crescent Marker shown below:

http://www.1up.com/flat/MyCheats/splintercellconvict/price/price010.jpg

The duration of the marker (Recognition time) would be dependant on the aforementioned factors

Now this where Conviction's AI detection failed miserably...a believable reaction to a non threatening stimuli....instead of investigation...they switched directly to ALERT.

I have two proposals for this:

1. In this system, the Investigation Cycle begins WITH the white marker...The AI will look towards the player more carefully, bring up it's weapon and walk towards the player's spot...with the Marker denoting the time it will take for the AI to recognize the player (As the AI does all the above) If the player manages to avoid detection...then the Marker disappears (AI loses direct LOS) BUT continues a search of the immediate area before returning to patrol.
The White Marker in conjunction with the coresponding AI behaviour and animations

2. The White Marker is simply the recognition timer and shows how long the player has before the AI starts an investigative routine.
White Marker-> Investigative routine starts
Now we can add layers over this simple system:

1. Check in: While in Investigative mode, the AI will check in with the nearby guards to let them know that they are checking something out....neutralizing one the investigator BEFORE he gives the all clear would lead to a raise suspicion level for the entire AI team.

2. AI Archetypes: Different AI types would have different investigative routines and procedures. The low level thugs would not bother checking in before investigating, allowing you to take them out. The Pros would first shine a spotlight at where they think they saw something...forcing the player to change position quickly.

Basically a short and sweet investigative routine which makes hiding in shadows more believable

sounds great.

i'd like to add that pros should always move with at least another AI.

and unless it's pitch dark, the player will not be in a "hidden" state. but the AI shouldnt be able see the player through some sort of cover like a bush when it's very dark, but the player shouldnt be told that he's "hidden" as well.

hell, the player shouldnt have this hidden/visible thing in the first place and should instead rely on visual cues.

oh, and i hope that Ubisoft gets rid of the warning/detected thing.

[shobhit7777777]

sounds great.

i'd like to add that pros should always move with at least another AI.


Absolutely

The search methods need to be updated, and a buddy pair is an excellent incentive to use some diversions or trick shooting

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

@Bob@Andre

This is what I want:

The 0 stage represents a zone where you WILL get detected and get detected quick...like in Conviction EXCEPT there is a buffer zone of an Investigation routine. dependent on the distance of the AI to the player, the offset from his central visual axis (a straight line from the AI's head) and the percentage of the Character's body being illumintated

I'll elaborate the stages further:

State 1: HIDDEN. You are in a believable, dark shadow and will not be detected unless the AI flashes your hiding spot with a torch or is really close (2m)

State 0: VISIBLE. This state applies to both light shadows and complete light. The difference is that in a light shadow (depending on distance, % of illumination and offset) the RECOGNITION time would be higher than in complete light (obsiously)
The Recognition time would be represented by the classic Conviction Crescent Marker shown below:

http://www.1up.com/flat/MyCheats/splintercellconvict/price/price010.jpg

The duration of the marker (Recognition time) would be dependant on the aforementioned factors

Now this where Conviction's AI detection failed miserably...a believable reaction to a non threatening stimuli....instead of investigation...they switched directly to ALERT.

I have two proposals for this:

1. In this system, the Investigation Cycle begins WITH the white marker...The AI will look towards the player more carefully, bring up it's weapon and walk towards the player's spot...with the Marker denoting the time it will take for the AI to recognize the player (As the AI does all the above) If the player manages to avoid detection...then the Marker disappears (AI loses direct LOS) BUT continues a search of the immediate area before returning to patrol.
The White Marker in conjunction with the coresponding AI behaviour and animations

2. The White Marker is simply the recognition timer and shows how long the player has before the AI starts an investigative routine.
White Marker-> Investigative routine starts
Now we can add layers over this simple system:

1. Check in: While in Investigative mode, the AI will check in with the nearby guards to let them know that they are checking something out....neutralizing one the investigator BEFORE he gives the all clear would lead to a raise suspicion level for the entire AI team.

2. AI Archetypes: Different AI types would have different investigative routines and procedures. The low level thugs would not bother checking in before investigating, allowing you to take them out. The Pros would first shine a spotlight at where they think they saw something...forcing the player to change position quickly.

Basically a short and sweet investigative routine which makes hiding in shadows more believable


Okay...if Blacklist had this...I'd be mighty fine with it. Very much a needed upgrade.

So the crescent would essentially take the place of the light meter? Because as it does the circle and slowly spins or whatever (what it does in SCC). So if you're in a lightish but still fairly dark shadow and a guard notices you/"something" the arrow will appear but wont move around to the alert status until he starts walking closer or you move closer where the arrow begins to then move...?That i'd be fine with.

You said the two man teams would give incentive for distractions or trick shooting (i took that to mean M&E to take them both out quickly which I'm definitely okay with as a tactic) but it'd also make a good incentive to not tip the "pro" archetypes off in the first place as well (for the ghosts)

[Andre202]

Well it's a lot better then Conviction, but I don't like these white circles. I deleted them in Conviction through the Conviction.ini. I think there should be another way. Like the light on his back should be blinking or something similar to that.

[michaelanjello]

@Bob@Andre

This is what I want:

The 0 stage represents a zone where you WILL get detected and get detected quick...like in Conviction EXCEPT there is a buffer zone of an Investigation routine. dependent on the distance of the AI to the player, the offset from his central visual axis (a straight line from the AI's head) and the percentage of the Character's body being illumintated

I'll elaborate the stages further:

State 1: HIDDEN. You are in a believable, dark shadow and will not be detected unless the AI flashes your hiding spot with a torch or is really close (2m)

State 0: VISIBLE. This state applies to both light shadows and complete light. The difference is that in a light shadow (depending on distance, % of illumination and offset) the RECOGNITION time would be higher than in complete light (obsiously)
The Recognition time would be represented by the classic Conviction Crescent Marker shown below:

http://www.1up.com/flat/MyCheats/splintercellconvict/price/price010.jpg

The duration of the marker (Recognition time) would be dependant on the aforementioned factors

Now this where Conviction's AI detection failed miserably...a believable reaction to a non threatening stimuli....instead of investigation...they switched directly to ALERT.

I have two proposals for this:

1. In this system, the Investigation Cycle begins WITH the white marker...The AI will look towards the player more carefully, bring up it's weapon and walk towards the player's spot...with the Marker denoting the time it will take for the AI to recognize the player (As the AI does all the above) If the player manages to avoid detection...then the Marker disappears (AI loses direct LOS) BUT continues a search of the immediate area before returning to patrol.
The White Marker in conjunction with the coresponding AI behaviour and animations

2. The White Marker is simply the recognition timer and shows how long the player has before the AI starts an investigative routine.
White Marker-> Investigative routine starts
Now we can add layers over this simple system:

1. Check in: While in Investigative mode, the AI will check in with the nearby guards to let them know that they are checking something out....neutralizing one the investigator BEFORE he gives the all clear would lead to a raise suspicion level for the entire AI team.

2. AI Archetypes: Different AI types would have different investigative routines and procedures. The low level thugs would not bother checking in before investigating, allowing you to take them out. The Pros would first shine a spotlight at where they think they saw something...forcing the player to change position quickly.

Basically a short and sweet investigative routine which makes hiding in shadows more believable

This exactly what I was trying to say, although I dont think I communicated it soo well.

In SCC the warning/detection ark gor bigger and smaller. But it happened way too fast as you mentioned. guards became instantly Alert in unrealistic moments where they would investigate first in real life. So depending on the darkness of the shadow and the distance of the guards/ other factors and environment and guard archetypes, the arc would get bigger faster, or would get bigger slower, the more the guard realizes that youre an enemy.

If the arcs are removed (which i hope), then the devs would have to think of a different way to communicate these things to the player...or. have the player try to figure these things out by themselves. However that would be too hardcore

[Ristar85]

Well it's a lot better then Conviction, but I don't like these white circles. I deleted them in Conviction through the Conviction.ini. I think there should be another way. Like the light on his back should be blinking or something similar to that.

how do u do that? which lines did u remove?

btw... i have to ask this one. do u have any idea how to stop the screen from becoming black and white?


EDIT:

remove the lines from C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell Conviction\src\system\Conviction.ini

to remove the warning/detected arc.



DetectionHudPosX=640
DetectionHudPosY=286
DetectionHudScaleX=70
DetectionHudScaleY=70

[The_5_Freedoms]

What's it like playing Conviction without black and white? Can you post screenshots?

[Ristar85]

What's it like playing Conviction without black and white? Can you post screenshots?

that's just for the warning/detected arc thingie.

[SolidSage]

Well it's a lot better then Conviction, but I don't like these white circles. I deleted them in Conviction through the Conviction.ini. I think there should be another way. Like the light on his back should be blinking or something similar to that.

Well you saw that in the SCB demo right? When Sam leaves the tent I think, after knifing the one guard he goes under a canopy and into shadows. Not deep shadows for hiding, just regular shade shadows. Anyway, the green light on his back gets visibly brighter. It's almost a guarantee that the light is going to get real bright when you are in deep shadows. Don't know about the blinking but it deffo looks like they went with DA's light points on the character for displaying immersion in shadow. Yay, no meter.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

This exactly what I was trying to say, although I dont think I communicated it soo well.

In SCC the warning/detection ark gor bigger and smaller. But it happened way too fast as you mentioned. guards became instantly Alert in unrealistic moments where they would investigate first in real life. So depending on the darkness of the shadow and the distance of the guards/ other factors and environment and guard archetypes, the arc would get bigger faster, or would get bigger slower, the more the guard realizes that youre an enemy.

If the arcs are removed (which i hope), then the devs would have to think of a different way to communicate these things to the player...or. have the player try to figure these things out by themselves. However that would be too hardcore

I wish I could think of something with the light on his back that doesn't rely on colors (as many are colorblind) but I can't. I WAS thinking that it'd start to blink slowly and then as the enemy becomes more aware it starts to blink faster and faster until it turns off (even in some shadows) because now the shadow isn't hiding you. If you can get away however and avoid being seen in a new shadow, the light would turn back on? Maybe? It doesn't give you the best indication of WHERE you're being detected from (which I don't mind, the older games didn't need to) but it also gives no indication of how close to figuring out youre an intruder and not a trick of the shadows. It again will seem to just SPRING it on you. At least the circles show how close they are to the arrow before recognition -- but again, it happened WAY to fast.

[shobhit7777777]

Okay...if Blacklist had this...I'd be mighty fine with it. Very much a needed upgrade.

So the crescent would essentially take the place of the light meter? Because as it does the circle and slowly spins or whatever (what it does in SCC). So if you're in a lightish but still fairly dark shadow and a guard notices you/"something" the arrow will appear but wont move around to the alert status until he starts walking closer or you move closer where the arrow begins to then move...?That i'd be fine with.

You said the two man teams would give incentive for distractions or trick shooting (i took that to mean M&E to take them both out quickly which I'm definitely okay with as a tactic) but it'd also make a good incentive to not tip the "pro" archetypes off in the first place as well (for the ghosts)

Not really..it acts like a Detection Countdown timer. It will will play simultaneously with AI's investigation routing..it will be a visual cue as to how close you are to detection AND it also provides off-screen warnings.

OR

It can be used as a proper buffer zone....when it appears it means that the Player is in direct LOS (light shadows). It functions like in conviction EXCEPT when it goes RED..the AI goes into an investigative mode..obviously this would work if the player is far away enough and the % of illumination is not that high...The recognition time will be short, very short

The main thing it does is to add a realistic reaction time but not sacrifice the investigative buffer zone.

When the Arrow pops up you have a very short time to disappear again before the guard detects you...around 2-4 seconds depending on the factors I have mentioned. The reaction/investigative routine of the guard is quicker..he will walk faster, become more alert and have a higher chance of detecting you as you close in.

I don't want to sacrifice Conviction's reaction time..it was perfect IMO...BUT I also don't want to sacrifice the invesitgative buffer zone...Also, this should eliminate the unrealistic shadow hiding that 5th freedom pointed out in his/her post

Also, the reason I call it Binary is that inspite of the 0 state having sub-states and conditions...the parameters for being invisible are binary - in state 1 (dark shadows) you will be safe and hidden (except in case of being illuminated or too close to the AI..ofcourse)
In state 0...regardless of whether you are in semi-dark shadows or the Light...you WILL get detected...the difference is that the time taken to get detected is greater in the semi-darkness state...when in the open you get detected immediately...and the factors like % of illumination, distance, offset etc. come into play in the former.

A semi-dark shadow is a very temporary cloak and you have a short time to rectify your stealth level before the AI moves into alert mode...which it will if the player is in state 0.

I'll elaborate a bit more on this hybrid system if time permits

[Andre202]

So you are removing the whole buffer reactions, like investigating an area?

[Andre202]

So you are removing the whole buffer reactions, like investigating an area?



What's it like playing Conviction without black and white? Can you post screenshots?
You can play the game with NVG Goggles. A mod let's you use these Goggles. But you can't remove the Black&White filter.



Well you saw that in the SCB demo right? When Sam leaves the tent I think, after knifing the one guard he goes under a canopy and into shadows. Not deep shadows for hiding, just regular shade shadows. Anyway, the green light on his back gets visibly brighter. It's almost a guarantee that the light is going to get real bright when you are in deep shadows. Don't know about the blinking but it deffo looks like they went with DA's light points on the character for displaying immersion in shadow. Yay, no meter.
I don't know about the blinking either, but if the white circles are the only indications of being in a buffer zone (which isn't really the case in Blacklist according to the demo), well that's really an immersion braker for me.

[shobhit7777777]

So you are removing the whole buffer reactions, like investigating an area?

No..why? I repeatedly and pointedly state the opposite..what gave you that impression?

[The_5_Freedoms]

that's just for the warning/detected arc thingie.
Oh.

Well I'm glad that you were able to remove them so that you could play the game the way you want to.


You can play the game with NVG Goggles. A mod let's you use these Goggles. But you can't remove the Black&White filter.
That's disappointing. :(

The NVGs sound pretty cool I guess. Do you use that mod?

[Andre202]

No..why? I repeatedly and pointedly state the opposite..what gave you that impression?


0...regardless of whether you are in semi-dark shadows or the Light...you WILL get detected...the difference is that the time taken to get detected is greater in the semi-darkness state...when in the open you get detected immediately...and the factors like % of illumination, distance, offset etc. come into play in the former.
There is only detected and nothing else mentioned which does give me that impression.




That's disappointing. :(

The NVGs sound pretty cool I guess. Do you use that mod?
I don't use it because you don't know when the B&W filter turns On and Off. You need to turn off and on the goggles yourself which make kind of pointless. It isn't coupled to the B&W filter. It would be nice though.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhoLLcYxb48

[The_5_Freedoms]

I don't use it because you don't know when the B&W filter turns On and Off. You need to turn off and on the goggles yourself which make kind of pointless. It isn't coupled to the B&W filter. It would be nice though.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhoLLcYxb48
You can tell when the filter turns on and off.

Watch the video from 1:47 to 1:52 and see the HUD change shades, indicating that he's in shadow, then light, then shadow again.

It also does that without the "night vision" enabled, but I guess most people don't notice. It's black when you're in light and turns gray when you're in shadow.

[Andre202]

No that's not what I meant. I mean the actual filter itself not the overlay of the mod. It would be nice if the mod replaced the B&W filter and just automatically switches to the Night Vision Goggles.

[The_5_Freedoms]

No that's not what I meant. I mean the actual filter itself not the overlay of the mod. It would be nice if the mod replaced the B&W filter and just automatically switches to the Night Vision Goggles.
I was talking about the black and white filter too, you can see when it would turn on and off (and thus when you're in light and shadow) by looking at HUD in the bottom right.

[Andre202]

Well, I was trying to explain why I do not use and that's because I cannot tell when the filter turns off and on. So when I haven't got the goggles (the visual overlay) on, I don't know when the filter turns on or off. That's what we have been discussing a lot about that the Stealth System in Conviction seems to be binary and there is no buffer zone which lets you know where exactly the borders of the filter are. So now for example I do go around and suddenly the B&W filter turns on without me having the goggles on. It feels somekind of useless to turn them on too now, since the B&W filter does that work already. It also somekind brakes the immersion there which is why I suggested to couple the filter and the mod or if it's possible remove the filter completely and be able to turn on and off the overlay at your will and have the HUD as the only indication of whether you are hidden or not. But I don't think that's possible. Well, at least I am not able to do that. Hopefully this explanation is more understandable.

[JaRuTo]

@Bob@Andre
State 1: HIDDEN. You are in a believable, dark shadow and will not be detected unless the AI flashes your hiding spot with a torch or is really close (2m)
So, back to the old unrealistic hiding in the shadows AI system on previous SC and you want to once again AI blind?? No thanks. You can't hide in the shadows if your enemy is standing and looking in your direction even from 8 meters away from you if we have to stick to realism.

[NightGhost1994]

So, back to the old unrealistic hiding in the shadows AI system on previous SC and you want to once again AI blind?? No thanks. You can't hide in the shadows if your enemy is standing and looking in your direction even from 8 meters away from you if we have to stick to realism.
In CT on expet, guards would always notice you if you are less than 2.5 or 2 meters away from them in the dark. Who wouldn't see 3 green lights or white light on the back.

[Andre202]

So, back to the old unrealistic hiding in the shadows AI system on previous SC and you want to once again AI blind?? No thanks. You can't hide in the shadows if your enemy is standing and looking in your direction even from 8 meters away from you if we have to stick to realism.

It's not unrealistic if the AI can't see **** in very dark shadows and they are also available in reallife. It's the other four senses which gives the AI the possibility to feel that there might be something but it doesn't mean they see something there at all. Such reactions should also occure randomly on AIs with specific personalities. Like they took someone for the job to guard or patrol a specific area who actually has a lot of fear working in the night.

[shobhit7777777]

There is only detected and nothing else mentioned which does give me that impression.


Hmmmm....


The 0 stage represents a zone where you WILL get detected and get detected quick...like in Conviction EXCEPT there is a buffer zone of an Investigation routine.


1. In this system, the Investigation Cycle begins WITH the white marker...The AI will look towards the player more carefully, bring up it's weapon and walk towards the player's spot...with the Marker denoting the time it will take for the AI to recognize the player (As the AI does all the above) If the player manages to avoid detection...then the Marker disappears (AI loses direct LOS) BUT continues a search of the immediate area before returning to patrol.
The White Marker in conjunction with the coresponding AI behaviour and animations


The reaction/investigative routine of the guard is quicker..he will walk faster, become more alert and have a higher chance of detecting you as you close in.



Also, the reason I call it Binary is that inspite of the 0 state having sub-states and conditions...the parameters for being invisible are binary - in state 1 (dark shadows) you will be safe and hidden (except in case of being illuminated or too close to the AI..ofcourse)
In state 0...regardless of whether you are in semi-dark shadows or the Light...you WILL get detected...the difference is that the time taken to get detected is greater in the semi-darkness state...when in the open you get detected immediately...and the factors like % of illumination, distance, offset etc. come into play in the former.


It functions like in conviction EXCEPT when it goes RED..the AI goes into an investigative mode..obviously this would work if the player is far away enough and the % of illumination is not that high...The recognition time will be short, very short


Andre, it is very unlike you to not comprehensively read posts.

I want the investigative buffer to be there...but faster, more reactive and ruthless when it comes to detection...that is all I want and expect. The system I mention is called 'Binary' because ultimately there are two shadow stealth states....with the second state branching into two substates.
In the second state (mild shadows/light) The AI WILL go into investigative mode...only the detection/recognition time changes.

Being in the second state (0) is 'Detected' for me since I don't want the AI to be even remotely aware of my presence..if I do hide in a mild shadow I want to be investigated and detected quickly....unless I move quickly to another darker spot (which WILL spook the AI further) or take out the spooked guard.

It is more realistic than Conviction's system, allows for a buffer zone for the ability to play legacy style yet maintains a razor's edge reaction time for Panther players

I will update this system with a more detailed brief and states with pics when I can get the time...as I understand that the idea I posted needs better explaining

@Jaruto


So, back to the old unrealistic hiding in the shadows AI system on previous SC and you want to once again AI blind?? No thanks. You can't hide in the shadows if your enemy is standing and looking in your direction even from 8 meters away from you if we have to stick to realism.

can't have shadow stealth without it..and if you're suggesting dropping Shadow stealth....well, good sir, I will have to break my one rule and ****ing murder you with Borat's G-string.

I'm the G-darn-p1ssed-at-you-for-even-remotely-suggesting-to-drop-shadow-stealth Batman

[JaRuTo]

It's not unrealistic if the AI can't see **** in very dark shadows and they are also available in reallife. It's the other four senses which gives the AI the possibility to feel that there might be something but it doesn't mean they see something there at all. Such reactions should also occure randomly on AIs with specific personalities. Like they took someone for the job to guard or patrol a specific area who actually has a lot of fear working in the night.
There is no such thing as a very dark room where you don't see the outlines of characters that are lurking. The eye gets used very quickly, even to the greatest darkness. It's a matter literally minutes when he sees the outlines of objects in such a dense shadow.



@Jaruto
can't have shadow stealth without it..and if you're suggesting dropping Shadow stealth....well, good sir, I will have to break my one rule and ****ing murder you with Borat's G-string.

I'm the G-darn-p1ssed-at-you-for-even-remotely-suggesting-to-drop-shadow-stealth Batman
Funny thing, Metal Gear Solid works great with that kind of hiding and Splinter Cell would be much better with the mechanics taken from Metal Gear. This is not the fault of shadows, just poorly designed artificial intelligence that is not responding as it should in reality. Thats why Splinter Cell sucks in that aspect.


In CT on expet, guards would always notice you if you are less than 2.5 or 2 meters away from them in the dark. Who wouldn't see 3 green lights or white light on the back.
Too short distances, and it should feel you a much greater distance, ya know? AI on expert is still blind as hell.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

There is no such thing as a very dark room where you don't see the outlines of characters that are lurking. The eye gets used very quickly, even to the greatest darkness. It's a matter literally minutes when he sees the outlines of objects in such a dense shadow.


Funny thing, Metal Gear Solid works great with that kind of hiding and Splinter Cell would be much better with the mechanics taken from Metal Gear.

...no. You're wrong. In the darkest of shadows, the eye gets used to it but only to what's immediately in front of it...it'd be hard to see anything past right in front of you. The faster it moves however, the louder and more visible it'd become (youd probably detect the movement)

That could be something cool they develop. Another thing would be enemy eyes becoming used to darkness which makes the distance that they notice you in shadows a little bit further meaning it's slightly easier to detect you but only after they've been in shadows for a certain amount of time...if a guard enters shadows briefly then exits....he wont see you. He walks in a shadow and stays there...after a while, the distance it takes for him to be alerted to your presence is longer.

[JaRuTo]

Good point, my bad, but still AI which detects you in the shadow is the worst thing in the SC series - completely unrealistic.
Time to change this.

[shobhit7777777]

Funny thing, Metal Gear Solid works great with that kind of hiding and Splinter Cell would be much better with the mechanics taken from Metal Gear. This is not the fault of shadows, just poorly designed artificial intelligence that is not responding as it should in reality. Thats why Splinter Cell sucks in that aspect.

Too short distances, and it should feel you a much greater distance, ya know? AI on expert is still blind as hell.

Conviction fixed AI sightline and range issues....SCB is keeping those intact in all likelihood...I doubt you would see legacy AI like issues. The AI will be quick to detect and react.

[Andre202]

There is no such thing as a very dark room where you don't see the outlines of characters that are lurking. The eye gets used very quickly, even to the greatest darkness. It's a matter literally minutes when he sees the outlines of objects in such a dense shadow.
No that's not the case. When I was a small child I always loved to play the Hide&Seek game with my brother in very dark rooms. Therefore we did everything to darken a room. We killed every lightsource with everything we had. Like the gap under the door where we put stuffed animals. And for a few minutes we could play the game. Although we could sense us with our other 4 senses we had a lot of fun and when the time came and our eyes adjusted to the darkness. We got out of our for several minutes to get our eyes used to the brightness again and the whole game began again.

It's also very important what kind of suit you are wearing and since dark shadows are blackl, a black wetsuit does help a lot, doesn't it.




Too short distances, and it should feel you a much greater distance, ya know? AI on expert is still blind as hell.
The NPC should definitely feel/sense you, not necessarily see you.




Conviction fixed AI sightline and range issues....SCB is keeping those intact in all likelihood...I doubt you would see legacy AI like issues. The AI will be quick to detect and react.
Not really. You have the same problem there too. Sometimes they detect you but more often you get to kill them first.




Funny thing, Metal Gear Solid works great with that kind of hiding and Splinter Cell would be much better with the mechanics taken from Metal Gear. This is not the fault of shadows, just poorly designed artificial intelligence that is not responding as it should in reality. Thats why Splinter Cell sucks in that aspect.
Splinter Cell is not Metal Gear Solid!
You are suggesting that SC should need to lose that one aspect on which it's core is based on. Not really sure what I should think of that.



@Shobhit:
I do get you now. Thanks for further explanations.

[CamberGreber]

I just noticed something I hadn't before the prompt when interacting with context sensitive areas has been moved to the side of the HUD...thank god.

O and the arrows that where present in Conviction when moving to new cover have been removed. Phew

[Andre202]

No, they didn't remove them.

And the button prompt were since Conviction on the bottom left corner.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Yeah they've always been there. I;m hoping they've made it less aggravating like in SCC where you'd want to do one thing and round up doing something completely different.

[shobhit7777777]

Not really. You have the same problem there too. Sometimes they detect you but more often you get to kill them first.


They did. Vision ranges are higher, on realistic they detect you really quick (depending on offset from their center of their visual cone, distance and player stance) The AI in SCC had excellent visual detection...it failed in reacting believably to minor sightings..the buffer zone that is.



Splinter Cell is not Metal Gear Solid!
You are suggesting that SC should need to lose that one aspect on which it's core is based on. Not really sure what I should think of that.


Kill him


@Shobhit:
I do get you now. Thanks for further explanations.

No problem :)

[Andre202]

They did. Vision ranges are higher, on realistic they detect you really quick (depending on offset from their center of their visual cone, distance and player stance) The AI in SCC had excellent visual detection...it failed in reacting believably to minor sightings..the buffer zone that is.
They still don't detect you very often when you sneak in front of them or kill them. I do it all the time. Sometimes it's completely unbelieveable that they can see anything but a falling body you pulled over the ledge. More often they will notice the body although it's falling into complete darkness. It's not that they are standing next to that falling body, but in a very wide distance. That On/Off reactions in Conviction's AI is very visible and also flawed sometimes.

[CamberGreber]

No, they didn't remove them.

And the button prompt were since Conviction on the bottom left corner.

I didn't notice it in the video.

And concerning the prompts i was referrring to the jump prompt that appeared on all cover.

[shobhit7777777]

They still don't detect you very often when you sneak in front of them or kill them. I do it all the time. Sometimes it's completely unbelieveable that they can see anything but a falling body you pulled over the ledge. More often they will notice the body although it's falling into complete darkness. It's not that they are standing next to that falling body, but in a very wide distance. That On/Off reactions in Conviction's AI is very visible and also flawed sometimes.

Oh...yup...thats broken...sorta. They SHOULD detect you regardless of your shadow stealth rating if you're directly in front and especially if you're moving about. I missed that out...partly because as a rule I NEVER move in front of the AI let alone crouch...I always get into cover...makes my immersion go up.

It also annoyed me that you're half inside a window aiming a pistol and the AI completely misses you

[sameer_monier]

I didn't notice it in the video.

And concerning the prompts i was referrring to the jump prompt that appeared on all cover.
It is still there but darker than it used to be


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuhfD48VRGE&amp;feature=player_detailpage#t=18 5s

[NightGhost1994]

Too short distances, and it should feel you a much greater distance, ya know? AI on expert is still blind as hell.
It seems that you are always invisible in split-jump. Who wouldn't see a guy 1 meter above of you?

I think they should get AI as in FC1. Those guys were badass, moving as team, from cover to cover and had deadly weapons.
Or as in Crysis 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJMJ_GcBLc

[HorTyS]

New Video Interview with Patrick Redding, though it's fairly devoid of any new insights.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rumY5gahHE&amp;feature=g-all-u



One thing I will say that I'm not liking after seeing all this discussion on HUD elements & prompts & what not is I am not digging the big, IMO intrusive "WARNING, DETECTED, EXECUTE READY" prompts that are being displayed CONSTANTLY. I hope, hope, hope the guys at Toronto at least have the sense to make those sorts of things toggle-able...

[Andre202]

There a few minor "new" details so thanks for the video.
Have an idea for a thread but I am not sure if I create one.

[sameer_monier]

There a few minor "new" details so thanks for the video.
Have an idea for a thread but I am not sure if I create one.
what new details did he say ?!

[sameer_monier]

A new thing from Patrick Here (http://www.vg247.com/2012/06/29/gamers-are-really-hungry-for-action-adventure-says-splinter-cell-blacklist-dev)



“I think something that we’re seeing is there’s been a real renaissance in action-adventure,” he said. “And I think that we’re able to take a lot of the unique features of the Splinter Cell world and really embrace that opportunity.“Players would like to have this kind of taut experience in a realistically rendered world, with a really good storyline, and with a hero who is lethal and efficient whose shoes they can step into, and I think we’ve got all three of those things [with Blacklist].”

[michaelanjello]

I didn't notice it in the video.

And concerning the prompts i was referrring to the jump prompt that appeared on all cover.

I think the reason you didnt see it was because at the time he jumped over cover and ran up the wall, the player was using that "hold a for fluid cover movement" feature. This way, sam traverses over cover thats in his way, so theres no need for the movement prompts.

[Andre202]

A new thing from Patrick Here (http://www.vg247.com/2012/06/29/gamers-are-really-hungry-for-action-adventure-says-splinter-cell-blacklist-dev)

Yeah that's one part. Instead of Stealth/Action or like SCC Action/Stealth, you have now a action-adventure. While people are really dying to see such a game and demand it a lot, I would have seen Beyond Good&Evil in that department instead of Splinter Cell. Nevermind. Next time we slap a jump-run concept into that game too. Mario fans will love it...

[Om4zd]

I get it now. If you're going stealth and are caught. Your punishment isn't restarting from a checkpoint but being forced to take Action oriented choices in to play. Thats actually a good idea.

[sameer_monier]

Yeah that's one part. Instead of Stealth/Action or like SCC Action/Stealth, you have now a action-adventure. While people are really dying to see such a game and demand it a lot, I would have seen Beyond Good&Evil in that department instead of Splinter Cell. Nevermind. Next time we slap a jump-run concept into that game too. Mario fans will love it...
but we already had a jump and run concept :D LOL
yeah you are totally right, like Capcom making Dramatic Horror

[HorTyS]

A new thing from Patrick Here (http://www.vg247.com/2012/06/29/gamers-are-really-hungry-for-action-adventure-says-splinter-cell-blacklist-dev)

That article is actually referring to the interview I posted. ;)

[sameer_monier]

That article is actually referring to the interview I posted. ;)
good that i didn't miss anything major :D