Anyone else annoyed at the misapplication of motion capture tech?

[newhenpal]

It started when I heard that the team behind Star Wars: The Force Unleashed had to hire people who looked like the characters they had in mind because they were using facial motion capture. I thought "whatever" because it's a tolerable set back for a franchise based on a series of movies, and because I never cared much for the movies or the game.

Apparently Max Payne now resembles his VA because of facial motion capture. But I'm not bothered by that either because I'm not a fan (yet) and, well, at least he has his old voice.

But now we have Blacklist...

Video game cutscenes are animation. Know what's cool about animation? Unlike live-action, you needn't settle for an actor who only resembles the character you have in mind. You can have a character look exactly how you want them to look when making a video game; all you have to do now is make sure the VA sounds and talks like the character ought to. Another cool thing about animation? Consistency. If you so please, you can make your character look exactly the same without having to worry about aging or contract disputes with the VA.

Sure, a switch to a more powerful engine will guarantee a new a boost in polygons and thus a new "look", so to speak, but it doesn't necessitate a change in facial structure or height.

I'm cool with motion capture in cutscenes, but only for select video game IPs.

[stewedyeti]

Did everyone check out the Beyond: Two Souls presentation? It looks PHENOMENAL. Best possible facial animation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NEup8y0g-Q

[Versus-Mroj]

MOCAP is absolutely useless, I hate it! It ruined old days... Old good looking and mainly perfect pixel-fit handmade animations like in old SC's... And result? Result is, that we have in modern games only FU***** checkpoint systems, because almost everything are only MOCAP animations and not the real 3D model moves which can be easily positioning ... :mad:

[Andre202]

One developer goes that way, the others are following them like sheeps without thinking if they really need this.
The ridicolous thing is if this developer begins to jump out of a window, the others begin to turn on their brain again and do it their own way...

[The_5_Freedoms]

Apparently Max Payne now resembles his VA because of facial motion capture. But I'm not bothered by that either because I'm not a fan (yet) and, well, at least he has his old voice.
That's kind of a bad example because Max Payne has always been modeled after someone (unlike Sam Fisher, as far as I know) and he appeared differently in each game anyway.

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/8440082/220/8440082.png (http://picturepush.com/public/8440082)

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8440128/220/8440128.jpg (http://picturepush.com/public/8440128)

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/8440136/220/8440136.png (http://picturepush.com/public/8440136)


Video game cutscenes are animation. Know what's cool about animation? Unlike live-action, you needn't settle for an actor who only resembles the character you have in mind. You can have a character look exactly how you want them to look when making a video game; all you have to do now is make sure the VA sounds and talks like the character ought to. Another cool thing about animation? Consistency. If you so please, you can make your character look exactly the same without having to worry about aging or contract disputes with the VA.
The best thing about animation is that you can animate your character to do things a motion capture actor might not be able (or willing) to do.

Like the Split Jump.

In fact, this was alluded to in the "Sam Fisher Interview" (the video is set to skip forward to the appropriate part).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihn1_XEcxjo#t=3m45s

No doubt hand animation would be easier than trying to get a guy to not only replicate the stunt, but do so in a way that looks "right" and can be used in the environments in the game.

[goclo822]

It started when I heard that the team behind Star Wars: The Force Unleashed had to hire people who looked like the characters they had in mind because they were using facial motion capture. I thought "whatever" because it's a tolerable set back for a franchise based on a series of movies, and because I never cared much for the movies or the game.

Apparently Max Payne now resembles his VA because of facial motion capture. But I'm not bothered by that either because I'm not a fan (yet) and, well, at least he has his old voice.

Yea see mo-cap animation is fine when it is being used to animate new characters or characters who's looks change all the time. It is not suppose to be used to reanimate old iconic characters that already have a very specific, realistic and iconic look. Like making Sam, a 50+ year old guy, look like the voice actor, 20 something, is completely unnecessary and makes absolutely no sense. Especially when they already had a specific look for the character (ignore the multiple face changes through-out the years).

Example:

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9399/fakesf.jpg
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9621/fakesf2.jpg


But now we have Blacklist...

Video game cutscenes are animation. Know what's cool about animation? Unlike live-action, you needn't settle for an actor who only resembles the character you have in mind. You can have a character look exactly how you want them to look when making a video game; all you have to do now is make sure the VA sounds and talks like the character ought to. Another cool thing about animation? Consistency. If you so please, you can make your character look exactly the same without having to worry about aging or contract disputes with the VA.

Sure, a switch to a more powerful engine will guarantee a new a boost in polygons and thus a new "look", so to speak, but it doesn't necessitate a change in facial structure or height.

I'm cool with motion capture in cutscenes, but only for select video game IPs.

See the stupid thing is that I LOVED mo-capping before the announcement of SCB. It brings this amazing realism to gaming that I use to miss. It makes games look amazing and realistic. I liked that they could make the characters look like the actors but that they still had the option of changing what they wanted about the characters, their features, bodies, etc. Or just not have them resemble them at all and just use their amazing voice while finding someone that resembles the character more looks wise. It opens up a whole new world of game animation.

UBISOFT JUST DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE IT PROPERLY!!!!

You do not take an iconic character like Sam and de-age him, remove his voice and change everything about him that has made him Sam Fisher for 10 years. This new type of animation is meant to enhance the game by adding to the characters. Not take away from the characters and ruin the game completely. The whole point of mo-capping is to have the freedom of changing the characters while still adding amazing graphics to the game and life-like, REALISTIC features to the characters (realistic as in not de-aging everyone to half their age. Mo-capping should be used to highlight their age, not take it away). And all of that without being tied down to the limits of physicality problems with the actor or having to find actors with both good features and a good voice.

Ubisoft's excuse for the voice change makes no sense because their entire excuse is exactly what mo-cap animation was created to prevent!

When I heard Splinter Cell was finally going to be taking up this animation style, I got so excited! I loved the idea of a more real looking Sam. Especially during cutscenes. Ubi completely ruined it for me.

[Andre202]

I have a feeling it will end in a last second overvoicing excercise from Ironside.

[Si1entDark]

I have a feeling it will end in a last second overvoicing excercise from Ironside.

Sounds too good to be true.

Eric seems like a cool guy, if it where up to me he would become the franchises main protagonist after BL.. just not Sam Fisher. I don't know what possessed the execs in Ubi to give the go ahead and replace Ironside. Even if he was getting sick of the role, they could of given him one last go as Sam Fisher in the role of Lambert advising an Eric Johnson voiced "Archer" type character. Having Sam die in a heroic "saves the world" way would be a much more fitting ending to 10 years of Ironsides service than to have Sams character change completely for the sake of motion capture. It breaks continuity and destroys realism that the series had going since it's inception.

That's how I see it anyway.

[JReactor]

Yeah I agree with Si1entDark on this one. They should have given Sam the Lambert role and allow some new greenhorn given the job as a Splinter Cell. Personally, I would have been perfectly fine with that.

[sam2000_290]

Like I mentioned before, you can't even tell the difference between MOCAP and without it. At least that's how I see it. Maybe MOCAP is more smoother but who notices?

@The_5_Freedoms (http://forums.ubi.com/member.php/1269481-The_5_Freedoms)

LOL I always thought Max was model after the same person over the series, but each model looks like different people.

[DeafAtheist]

What you guys are failing to understand here is that this is not simply MOCAP, it's PERFORMANCE Capture. The reason they went with Eric Johnson is because they wanted the voice to match the action. They wanted instances where Sam was short of breath after exerting energy. They wanted realistic sounding grunts and groans in fighting scenes. Of course actors don't actually strike each other, but the physical exercise of mock fighting does add energy to a voice that you just can't capture with a guy standing at a microphone reading from a script. You can't really fake a the sound of someone being short of breath without actually being short of breath.

Director: Ok, Mr. Ironside, I'm going to need you to run around the office a couple of times and then quickly come up to the microphone and without consulting the script to voice the next few lines here, okay?"

Eric Johnson is very good at memorizing scripts. They said in a video that he is never seen on set consulting his script. He's got it down.

[Versus-Mroj]

Sounds too good to be true.

Eric seems like a cool guy, if it where up to me he would become the franchises main protagonist after BL.. just not Sam Fisher. I don't know what possessed the execs in Ubi to give the go ahead and replace Ironside. Even if he was getting sick of the role, they could of given him one last go as Sam Fisher in the role of Lambert advising an Eric Johnson voiced "Archer" type character. Having Sam die in a heroic "saves the world" way would be a much more fitting ending to 10 years of Ironsides service than to have Sams character change completely for the sake of motion capture. It breaks continuity and destroys realism that the series had going since it's inception.

That's how I see it anyway.

Absolutely true... Many people have the same opinion. This is not dignified for Sam...

When developers want make their work easier by using MOCAP (because they are so LAZY to animate it perfectly by old handmade techniques) and it means too many changes like we see in SCB... something got wrong... :nonchalance:

[AGENTxxxxx47]

Imagine if they mo-capped Ironside's face ? Now that would be awesome a sort of tribute to a legend whos voiced the series.

Instead of pretty boy face they're using now

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Agent 47....that'd be amazing.

[kalle90]

Imagine if they mo-capped Ironside's face ? Now that would be awesome a sort of tribute to a legend whos voiced the series.

Instead of pretty boy face they're using now

In the last game's epilogue we'll see Sam sitting in a retirement home talking as if he talked to the player. And that Sam will look just like Ironside.

Anyway one thing that bothers me about Performance Capture is how clunky it can seem in the end. With 100% animated animations the animators have to spend hours and hours trying to make all changes of action seem believeable. But with mocap they only have the canned animations to work with so going from A to B might look good but going from C to A looks totally wrong. They might not have animations for certain things at all (such as during interrogation scenes not all environmental objects work like they should if they work at all).

And the climbing animation. They can't do hugely varied realistic climbing because it would require so much effort. Instead they opt to generic jumping.

[The_5_Freedoms]

Of course actors don't actually strike each other, but the physical exercise of mock fighting does add energy to a voice that you just can't capture with a guy standing at a microphone reading from a script.
Actually, Dean Evans (Game Designer of Splinter Cell: Conviction) said one of the stuntmen for the interrogation motion capture sessions took a fist to the face and lost a tooth.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Jt2XecFec#t=0m48s

Dean: So you've seen a bit of our mo-cap process, and sometimes it can get pretty intense. Down at the interrogation mo-cap sessions one of the stuntmen took a good fist to the tooth, bang, chipped it out, ping ping, lost on the floor. But, you know, that's the price you pay for beauty. Speaking of beauty, let's go take a look at the art side of the game.

[stewedyeti]

Especially when they already had a specific look for the character (ignore the multiple face changes through-out the years).

"Ignore the multiple face changes throughout the years"

Lmfao considering the face is the most important part of someone's identity how exactly would changing it mean he has a specific look?

Also I thought of something earlier... If they're doing performance capture specifically to make the mocap and dialogue act as realistically as possible... What are they going to do about game localization? Non-English subtitles? Overdub the dialogue with that of a foreign language and contradict themselves? Film new performance capture for every language?*SURELY* they don't want to cheapen the game with dubbing, right? :/

[kalle90]

Also I thought of something earlier... If they're doing performance capture specifically to make the mocap and dialogue act as realistically as possible... What are they going to do about game localization? Non-English subtitles? Overdub the dialogue with that of a foreign language and contradict themselves? Film new performance capture for every language?*SURELY* they don't want to cheapen the game with dubbing, right? :/

Dubbed versions have never really mattered, to the point most people prefer having the original even if they have difficulties understanding it. Who is german or italian Sam Fisher?

[Versus-Mroj]

Even Splinter Cell SAR has the LIPSYNCH for basic international languages EFGSI...

[newhenpal]

What you guys are failing to understand here is that this is not simply MOCAP, it's PERFORMANCE Capture. The reason they went with Eric Johnson is because they wanted the voice to match the action. They wanted instances where Sam was short of breath after exerting energy. They wanted realistic sounding grunts and groans in fighting scenes. Of course actors don't actually strike each other, but the physical exercise of mock fighting does add energy to a voice that you just can't capture with a guy standing at a microphone reading from a script. You can't really fake a the sound of someone being short of breath without actually being short of breath.

Director: Ok, Mr. Ironside, I'm going to need you to run around the office a couple of times and then quickly come up to the microphone and without consulting the script to voice the next few lines here, okay?"

Eric Johnson is very good at memorizing scripts. They said in a video that he is never seen on set consulting his script. He's got it down.

So what you're saying is that changing the physical appearance of a long established character and giving said character a generic, inappropriately young voice that in no way matches his previously iconic, grizzled voice is a small price to pay for....grunts and shortness of breath that are perhaps more realistic.

Can't say I follow that logic.

Hell, I didn't even know New Sam Fisher was capable of running out of breath.

[kalle90]

^^
He probably will, during some cutscenes.

Like in the Tomb Raider that was presented at E3 Lara will hold her stomach after falling in a cutscene, but during gameplay she can get shot by a shotgun right to the nose and she doesn't notice.

[newhenpal]

That was just a "Sam is a superhero" gibe.

[The_5_Freedoms]

So what you're saying is that changing the physical appearance of a long established character and giving said character a generic, inappropriately young voice that in no way matches his previously iconic, grizzled voice is a small price to pay for....grunts and shortness of breath that are perhaps more realistic.

Can't say I follow that logic.

Hell, I didn't even know New Sam Fisher was capable of running out of breath.
Didn't Ironside do the heavy breathing and grunts for Sam in previous games anyway? I'm pretty sure he did.

[KenTWOu]

Like I mentioned before, you can't even tell the difference between MOCAP and without it. At least that's how I see it. Maybe MOCAP is more smoother but who notices?
Did you play L.A. Noire? They captured (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTOlEUAtGog) only actors' faces during performances. So they didn't shoot body and face at the same time. And almost every reviewer mentioned the final result wasn't 100% perfect. David Cage from Quantic Dream even criticized (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/296388/david-cage-la-noire-tech-is-interesting-dead-end-quantics-new-approach-is-the-future/) LA Noire tech. I played this game and sometimes I saw these issues. Sometimes it looks like the head and body language do not correspond to each other. So I assure you that people, especially experienced players can spot the difference between performance capture, motion capture and handmade animation.

[GuZZ33]

Imagine if they mo-capped Ironside's face ? Now that would be awesome a sort of tribute to a legend whos voiced the series.

Instead of pretty boy face they're using now
Mike is getting too old and he's packing on the pounds (and so one should in their later years), if i'm honest (and no offence mike) but i think mikes voice was out of place in conviction. This is a problem when you play a game knowing the real life character/person.