Splinter Cell Blacklist - Gameplay Analysis

[shobhit7777777]

Note: This thread is purely for discussing the gameplay in SCB and new mechanics/features. This is not a thread to discuss Ironside's absence or the new direction the franchise has taken

The following video is a Gamespot Preview with a great interview with Maxime Beland and which sheds light on a couple of new features.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUhxtDnvSpE&feature=plcp


1. Character Customization: Beland states that the player can upgrade his outfit according to his/her playstyle and states an example where the player can choose shoes which make less noise while running for the stealthy players or more armour for the more aggressive players.
*The Silent Running shoes maybe indicative of better AI hearing*
Now for folks who have been out of touch with the forums....Our members suggested the exact same thing (Sameer and Jazz come to mind...as I recall them making threads on the very same subject!!) That is a great sign IMO. The Forums were being read!

2. Rappelling is back: Sam rappels down and breaches through the window in the video. This is again an excellent re-addition and hints at multiple entry points in level designs

3. Choice of Playstyle: MB specifically states that the game targets the 'Ghost (classic fans), Panther (aggro-stealth players) and Action (Run and Gunners). A hybrid stealth game offering freedom in approaching a situation based on your preferred playstyle. We will have to wait and see the depth of approaches available.

4. Less-than-Lethal options: Again, it has been stated (By Ubi Zack and IIRC MB as well) that less than lethal options have been added and the player can choose to Kill/KO. This is also apparent with the addition of the Crossbow which fired off a sticky shocker in the gameplay demo. Perhaps the Crossbow is able to fire multiple munition types.

5. Drone/Camera: The CGI trailer (as well as the factsheet) state that Sam can now control a mini-drone that can be used to as a mobile sticky cam. In the trailer it was shown that the drone can attach itself to a surface and behave like the classic sticky cam.

6. Campaign Co-Op: In the CGI trailer you have Sam rescuing a young and capable agent (?) apparently recruited into 4th echelon along with Vic providing Sniper support is this an indicator that you may have some sort of SP campaign available for coop? Or that you can call in support using OPSAT in select situations "Vic fire at that guy on my mark" a la GRFS

Post your findings, assumptions, opinions etc.

[Cjail]

I can confirm already that customization will be there.
In the pre-order bonus you get 5 armor pieces; not sure what they are exactly but it's clear that you can customize your suit.

I personally like how guns/weapons actually don't seems glued to your back like in other TPS: it indicates that they really cared about details in animations and it is something I have rarely seen.

[shobhit7777777]

I can confirm already that customization will be there.
In the pre-order bonus you get 5 armor pieces; not sure what they are but it's clear that you can customize your suit.

I personally like how guns/weapons actually don't seems glued to your back like in other TPS: it indicates that they really cared about details in animations and it is something I have rarely seen.

any link to the pre-order bonus? I want to see what the armor pieces look likes

[Cjail]

any link to the pre-order bonus? I want to see what the armor pieces look likes

No pictures sadly but at teh end of one of the trailer they showed the pre-order bonus.
Here a still image of the pre-order bonus form he trailer: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/681006-Ideas-for-the-Special-Limited-Collector-s-Editions?p=8364436#post8364436

[shobhit7777777]

No pictures sadly but at teh end of one of the trailer they showed the pre-order bonus.
Here a still image of the pre-order bonus form he trailer: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/681006-Ideas-for-the-Special-Limited-Collector-s-Editions?p=8364436#post8364436

Thanks!

I'm glad they are taking PEC to a whole new level

[Andre202]

3. Choice of Playstyle: MB specifically states that the game targets the 'Ghost (classic fans), Panther (aggro-stealth players) and Action (Run and Gunners). A hybrid stealth game offering freedom in approaching a situation based on your preferred playstyle. We will have to wait and see the depth of approaches available.
Well that's something you won't be able to see through the PR campaign and that's where the people are worried that one of these players need to change their playstyle because the narrative design forces you to do so.




6. Campaign Co-Op: In the CGI trailer you have Sam rescuing a young and capable agent (?) apparently recruited into 4th echelon along with Vic providing Sniper support is this an indicator that you may have some sort of SP campaign available for coop? Or that you can call in support using OPSAT in select situations "Vic fire at that guy on my mark" a la GRFS

Post your findings, assumptions, opinions etc.
Maxime said you will have in every mission a situation like in the demo when the truck is coming and you got the option to call for help to get that truck away.

[Cjail]

Maxime said you will have in every mission a situation like in the demo when the truck is coming and you got the option to call for help to get that truck away.

I like it; in the demo we get a help from Grim (missile), but in other levels we might get help under other forms: sniper intervention, some sort of distraction, etc...

[The_5_Freedoms]

You forgot to mention that we could dress up as the enemy.

[Jazz117Volkov]

The thing that has me all psyched is the 'pick your style' gameplay.
Anyone who knows me, knows I don't care much for either pure stealth, or pure action in Conviction. They're unwholesomely shallow. It's all about the 'Panther' in SCC.

Blacklist looks to offer a true evolution by including pure avoidance and all out guns blazing action as part of the gameplay loop--or so we're told.
My concerns are few, but rather serious:
Level design and scripting is probably at the top of my sh!t list at the moment. I know what we've seen is just a demo etc. but the final version of SCC's E3 outing was arguably more linear then the demo. So just to make this clear, if I see something even remotely similar to this kind of scripting and forced encounter in the final game, I'm liable to exercise the guns blazing part for real. (sarcasm)

In my mind, unless the levels are relaxed and don't keep poking you to continue, then your freedom of style is tainted and the only thing that'll feel natural is the one that get's you further, faster.
Tiz why D-Ops is such fun--no influential designs and scripting to mess with your preferred style. So we really need to see a big step up in the design quality and a big step back in the scripting, in the single player story missions.
For now I'm just waiting and watching for good news, but look no further then GRFS to see my concerns realized.

I'll talk more about it when I've seen/thought more of it, but I must say that this 'killing in motion' is pretty cool.
I think that will bring whole new layer to the Panther part of the game, and allow for some great tactics and improvisation.

[Andre202]

@Jazz: Same here and I made this clear in a lots of posts now. The design and scripting will brake or make the Splinter Cell game, especially meaning the Singleplayer Campaign. In the Demo I just pointed out the truck situation.

[Crucify Lucifer]

Whistling is back. :D I also love how you can make more use of the environment like scaling walls/cliffs and cutting open tents, felt like that was really lacking in Conviction so I can't wait to see the possibilities with that.

And I'm a bit of a panther myself. Well, a ghostly panther ;)

[sameer_monier]

Maxime said you will have in every mission a situation like in the demo when the truck is coming and you got the option to call for help to get that truck away.
Really ?!, I think that is the only bad thing I have heard about SCB, I hoped it would be more of "get detected, and reinforcements come"

[kalle90]

To me Beland talking about Sam being the leader of 4E and getting support (still sounds absolutely terrible plotwise) sounds very much like AC Brotherhood. I was half-expecting for Sam to call in a group of Shadownet spies to sneakily assassinate everyone with some invisibility that makes them look like they teleport in and out.

Atleast that would be the class of badass Beland is going for.

[The_5_Freedoms]

You forgot to mention that we could dress up as the enemy.
I still think this is pretty awesome.

We can walk into an enemy base camp dressed as one of their own and carrying a dead body, then reveal ourselves and kill them all.

It takes infiltration to a whole new level.

[Andre202]

Really ?!, I think that is the only bad thing I have heard about SCB, I hoped it would be more of "get detected, and reinforcements come"

That's exactly the thing I was worried about and he did confirm in the G4TV interview that such scenes will be available in every level, which is kind of over the top again.

[shobhit7777777]

I still think this is pretty awesome.

We can walk into an enemy base camp dressed as one of their own and carrying a dead body, then reveal ourselves and kill them all.

It takes infiltration to a whole new level.


yeeeaahhhh....I think that was a scripted thingy...not an optional gameplay mechanic. You may have several instances where you insert in disguise...all scripted...I don't think they have incorporated Disguise elements in.

[sameer_monier]

That's exactly the thing I was worried about and he did confirm in the G4TV interview that such scenes will be available in every level, which is kind of over the top again.
I hope at least since he said Ghosting is there, that we will find a way around them.

[Andre202]

I just got a discription of the extended demo. The extended version seems to have even more action. A part from a German preview, which is after the interrogation of the guy at the end:

"As if it was intended, there follows a section again, which we can not classify as the Fisher-universe: Sam shoots himself an escape route free, by accessing a surveillance drone, equipped with guns. There follows a sequence that we would have expected in Call of Duty, not in Splinter Cell. With the drone Sam kills countless guards and bombs a few anti-aircraft defenses as it is nothing special for him."

It does remind me of the Conviction version of Gameloft made for mobile phones where you shoot a jet with a rocket launcher. Not something I really like to hear.

[sameer_monier]

I just got a discription of the extended demo. The extended version seems to have even more action. A part from a German preview, which is after the interrogation of the guy at the end:

"As if it was intended, there follows a section again, which we can not classify as the Fisher-universe: Sam shoots himself an escape route free, by accessing a surveillance drone, equipped with guns. There follows a sequence that we would have expected in Call of Duty, not in Splinter Cell. With the drone Sam kills countless guards and bombs a few anti-aircraft defenses as it is nothing special for him."

It does remind me of the Conviction version of Gameloft made for mobile phones where you shoot a jet with a rocket launcher. Not something I really like to hear.
well it was pretty obvious we will have those action parts one way or another, once we are shown the extended demo, I will have one question, Can we finish it stealthy ?!, cause right till the Van gets in was somehow stealthy, will the 2nd part be stealth-able too or not ?!

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

OH no......I really hope it's optional....I'm gonna be sad.

[Andre202]

Why the hell should we have these situations in the first place? This situation seems to be just as ridicolous as the situation with the helicopter in Conviction.
That's not Tom Clancy-ish at all. After all these things are completely unnecessary (please don't come up with the story, they are writing the story, so they can change it whenever they want) for a Splinter Cell game.

[sameer_monier]

^^ Mass Appeal ?! :D, welcome to the new Tom Clancy world

[harbi-117]

"As if it was intended, there follows a section again, which we can not classify as the Fisher-universe: Sam shoots himself an escape route free, by accessing a surveillance drone, equipped with guns. There follows a sequence that we would have expected in Call of Duty, not in Splinter Cell. With the drone Sam kills countless guards and bombs a few anti-aircraft defenses as it is nothing special for him."if it's optional I'm ok with that, in fact I support it, makes the game appeal to a wider audience.
Personally, I don't want to use the drone to blow those AA guns, I want to sneak there and plant C4.
I really hope Ubisoft can deliver on their "play it your way" style.


It does remind me of the Conviction version of Gameloft made for mobile phones where you shoot a jet with a rocket launcher. Not something I really like to hear.What!? a jet... with... a rocket launcher!! serious?
I didn't give the mobile version any attention. How was is it Andre? as a Stealth-Action games not as a Splinter Cell game?

[Andre202]

if it's optional I'm ok with that, in fact I support it, makes the game appeal to a wider audience.
Personally, I don't want to use the drone to blow those AA guns, I want to sneak there and plant C4.
I really hope Ubisoft can deliver on their "play it your way" style.
I don't think it's optional and I think we should really stop letting all this action though. Open minded back and forth, it's not an Action game and they make it out to be an Action game, if it's supposed to be a Stealth Action game.


What!? a jet... with... a rocket launcher!! serious?
I didn't give the mobile version any attention. How was is it Andre? as a Stealth-Action games not as a Splinter Cell game?
You could let through as a Stealth-Action game but it designed very easy. The jet is the endboss...

And I mean, what I hear from this discription is something I would let through if it's a Ghost-Team, but not if it's a Splinter Cell operative!

[Cjail]

From what Beland says you can absolutely play stealth so a intervention/help sequence might happens only if things do bad, if you mess up.
I mean look at how they played that part of the demo: death from above and execution in front of a machine-gun...clearly played to showcase the action.
Also you actually have to call for intervention/help, it doesn't trigger automatically, and this suggest that it isn't scripted; make past the truck stealthly and Grim says "Haven't lost you touch despite you age" then Sam replicates "Could you stop making me feel old".

Really I won't be surprised if we had a trophy/achievement that requires us not to use intervention/help during any mission.

[Andre202]

From what Beland says you can absolutely play stealth so a intervention/help sequence might happens only if things do bad, if you mess up.
I mean look at how they played that part of the demo: death from above and execution in front of a machine-gun...clearly played to showcase the action.
Also the you actually have to call for intervention/help and this suggest that it isn't scripted; make past the truck stealth and Grim congrats you and says "Haven't lost you touch despite you age" then Sam replicates "Coudl you stop making me feel old".

Really I won't be surprised if we had a trophy/achievement that requires us not to use intervention/help during any mission.
Ehh... I am talking about the very end. We can only hear that more enemies are coming and Grim says he got company. The discription from the German Online Magazine suggests that they saw an extended version, because it didn't end with the 2nd interrogations and there you have these ridiculous scenes like bombing these air-craft defense systems. Tell me a very good reason why it would make sense Sam doing the work which a Ghost-Team would actually do?

I hope you are right, but hoping doesn't change things, so I point these things out. I could just as well wait as a lot of people always suggest and wait for the retail game to judge something like that. Sorry, bu that's just to late I don't think the team would be in a mood to change such things after the game gone gold.

[KenTWOu]

I've compared different playthroughs and noticed pretty cool feature. Blacklist has perfect match of the order of marks and the order of execution. If you mark the left guy then the right guy and the guy in the middle of them, execution order will be the same. If that's really true and this feature will be in the final game, It will add another tactical layer to mark and execution, which Conviction doesn't have.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I hope that German mag is wrong. God, I hope it;s wrong... >.<

[KenTWOu]

I hope that German mag is wrong. God, I hope it;s wrong... >.<
Unfortunately German mag is right. Extended version of E3 demo has the final sequence with some kind of a drone, which destroys AA artillery and enemies before extraction. I've read about that sequence on one of the Russian gaming sites. This sounds horribly horribly horribly horribly horribly horribly wrong. We don't need such sequences in Splinter Cell. Ubisoft Toronto should leave them to military or tactical shooters.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. Ugh. Ubiiiii....

[Andre202]

I've compared different playthroughs and noticed pretty cool feature. Blacklist has perfect match of the order of marks and the order of execution. If you mark the left guy then the right guy and the guy in the middle of them, execution order will be the same. If that's really true and this feature will be in the final game, It will add another tactical layer to mark and execution, which Conviction doesn't have.
Yeah I noticed that too. Very nice addition. It's another tactical layer.




Unfortunately German mag is right. Extended version of E3 demo has the final sequence with some kind of a drone, which destroys AA artillery and enemies before extraction. I've read about that sequence on one of the Russian gaming sites. This sounds horribly horribly horribly horribly horribly horribly wrong. We don't need such sequences in Splinter Cell. Ubisoft Toronto should leave them to military or tactical shooters.
How do the russians describe the sequence. Can you control it or is ir forced. In the German mag they just say that one sentece about it but they don't have any real indepth explanations of what exactly happened. Maybe that's also on of these sequences you can order from Grim to get some help but you don't have to, just as the airstrike on the truck. At the moment, it doesn't sound good though.

[KenTWOu]

How do the russians describe the sequence.
This is that article (http://www.ag.ru/news/07-06-2012#20585). The part about extraction in the last two paragraphs. My translation skill is very poor so...

After Jadid interrogation, who said that he is MI6 undercover agent, but unfortunately was a traitor, Sam asked about extraction from the area. His team helped him - suddenly the game shifted to the drone, which destroyed enemies and air-defense units in an arcade way (Hello, Call of Duty:Modern Warfare!). The authors explained, that sometimes it's useful to look at the world through the eyes of Fisher's subordinates.

The team disassembled the fortified stronghold of the terrorists 'brick by brick', opened the way for the evacuation. Sam walked through the area... and the presentation was over.

[coltcat]

"that sometimes it's useful to look at the world through the eyes of Fisher's subordinates."

Ohhhh.... fck off,*facepalm* anyone who in devs wrote this sequence into the game obviously just a action nuts who wants to drop some predator missiles. dont even try to justified that with "for expanding story depth" BS. it's none of any SC players business to play as air supports. its ridiculously cheap for any games nowadays.
and SC players WANTS to play as Sam Fisher. it shouldnt be hard for devs to figure out

[mateus99]

This is that article (http://www.ag.ru/news/07-06-2012#20585). The part about extraction in the last two paragraphs. My translation skill is very poor so...

After Jadid interrogation, who said that he is MI6 undercover agent, but unfortunately was a traitor, Sam asked about extraction from the area. His team helped him - suddenly the game shifted to the drone, which destroyed enemies and air-defense units in an arcade way (Hello, Call of Duty:Modern Warfare!). The authors explained, that sometimes it's useful to look at the world through the eyes of Fisher's subordinates.

The team disassembled the fortified stronghold of the terrorists 'brick by brick', opened the way for the evacuation. Sam walked through the area... and the presentation was over.

Useful?We want to play as sam fisher not change characters and viewpoints like cod!!!!

[Cjail]

Useful?We want to play as sam fisher not change characters and viewpoints like cod!!!!

Honestly a shift of perspective that last the time of a bomb drop is not going to take away the connection with Sam.
Also probably that's the ending sequence/cut-scene of the level since Sam asks for extraction.

[KenTWOu]

Probably that's the ending sequence/cut-scene of the level.
May be the real meaning was lost in translation. But the original russian text insists that this whole drone sequence was fully playable.

[Cjail]

Maybe they want to make you feel more attached to the other members of 4the Echelon, show that thy actually participate and are not there just for show.
I don't think it's a particularly bad choice as long as it is contained to brief moments.
Also you are still in controls: better then be a spectator only.

[coltcat]

Maybe they want to make you feel more attached to the other members of 4the Echelon, show that thy actually participate and are not there just for show.
I don't think it's a particularly bad choice as long as it is contained to brief moments.
Also you are still in controls: better then be a spectator only.
changing perspective is only good when it helps the story, and the one you changing into IS a real character doing some real things to the plot,
unless the drone operator is someone who has name, face, motive and required to the story, otherwise no one will get the point of perspective shifting, it will just be like MW you play like 5 different guys hopping around the world to a point players dont even give a danm who these people are.

then off course, this scene from the article now just sounds like a excuse to stuff in few min of FLIR turkey shoot.
if its not any main charater, not effecting the story, it dosent have to be left-mouse clicking interactive. then I'll say dont bother putting this in, make it a 60 sec inter mission cut scene and leave the efforts to other more important stuff in the game.

only perspective of co-workers we will spent times on are coop agents

[mateus99]

Im fine if it is just a sequence (like a cinematic)But if there is gameplay involved like controling the missiles and such. it is something i am tottaly against

[KenTWOu]

Found this strange article (http://www.gamertalk.tv/?p=2309), I don't know is it trustworthy source or not. But it says that Blacklist has:

-Predator drone (similar to Call of Duty’s AC -130). Gun down enemies and blow up gun turrets from the skies using a thermal camera, machine gun, and missiles

And it also has

-Guard dogs. If the pup grabs your arm mash the X button to put him down. [the camera will move behind Sam to hide the dog getting killed]

[mateus99]

Found this strange article (http://www.gamertalk.tv/?p=2309), I don't know is it trustworthy source or not. But it says that Blacklist has:

-Predator drone (similar to Call of Duty’s AC -130). Gun down enemies and blow up gun turrets from the skies using a thermal camera, machine gun, and missiles

And it also has

-Guard dogs. If the pup grabs your arm mash the X button to put him down. [the camera will move behind Sam to hide the dog getting killed]

GOD i hope the arcade style ac-130 etc are optional.but i am happy if the dogs return :D

[Andre202]

You know but that's really something I would expect in CoD or BF or maybe in a Ghost Recon title, but not in Splinter Cell. That's really over the top again.

[Cjail]

Hi.
This interview confirm what I said: interventions are not scripted events.
You can decide whether to sue them or not.

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/06/11/maxime-beland-on-the-ghosts-and-panthers-of-splinter-cell-black/

[coltcat]

Hi.
This interview confirm what I said: interventions are not scripted events.
You can decide whether to sue them or not.

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/06/11/maxime-beland-on-the-ghosts-and-panthers-of-splinter-cell-black/
Max: we dont want Sam to be a 25yo generic action hero.

but Sam in that trailer intercuts with interview is more 25yo-generic-aciton-heroish than ever man..... must be the botox and the voice.
you can even replace him with roach from mw2.

[bluewolf042000]

Dogs are back? Haha this just became more interesting...in a good challenging way.

[sameer_monier]

In the CGI trailer Sam welcomes the new character to 4th Echelon, so just imagine that story got Side Missions (or Side Quests) that you take and recruit other agents to 4th Echelon, then those Agents transfer to Co-Op for you to use as character. of course each one of them will have his own personality, but the Co-Op levels will probably play the same anyway.

[MonkeySoldier14]

GOD i hope the arcade style ac-130 etc are optional.but i am happy if the dogs return :D

I was thinking that maybe the type of reinforcements Grim can back you up might possibly have to do with the economy system. They did say that you can buy whatever fits your play style and they also did mention that there would be other reinforcements like knocking out the lights in a building. So maybe you might have the option on what kind of backup you get; which I think would be super cool. Or you might not be and it could be strictly level based and not up to the player. :( It's just a thought though.

[sameer_monier]

I am not sure but I believe I may know how they will use L&S in SCB and what is our new Light System, going through the demo again



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuhfD48VRGE&amp;list=WL739203F3BB47FB06&amp;index= 27&amp;feature=plpp_video


I noticed whenever Sam is in the Light, the Green Light on his back isn't shinning, while when he is in Shadow it is shinning ((reminds me of SAR & DA))

Check it out at 1:55 when he is cutting the tent, he is basically in the Light, now check again once he moves inside the tent which is Shadow, the light on his back will shine.

Even when hanging at 3:30 the light isn't shining at all, but when he is hanging up at 5:00 the light is shining.

I believe that's it, it is still binary, but very cool, and responsive I believe, I believe there is still AI awareness to take into consideration, they seem to be sharper this time around.

I find it similar to DA system, though I believe that system was broken, It is also more like Binary L&S from SCC, which was alot better IMO.

[michaelanjello]

Yeah i mentioned this a while back, but I guess you guys didnt read it, cuz no one aknowledged what I said. Yeah the green lights glow in the dark.
So if you grab a guy and move backwards into the shadows, itll look exactly like The original SC's

[michaelanjello]

Also, I think its worth noting ( UBisoft Devs) That at the moment right before Sam runs up the wall to grab the guard off the ledge, he jumps over a baricade and runs through this big puddle. He also does this behind 2 guards. Wouldnt you think that he would make more noise and the guards would notice? Just a little thing I noticed that I believed needed to be pointed out. Changing that could make the part seem a little more realistic. Youd expect 2 guards to hear a person Splashing in a puddle and turn around. Or maybe their headwraps are impairing their hearing?

[Andre202]

DA system is just as binary, as Conviction, but it allowed for "multiple" AI reactions nevertheless. Both had the same problem, you don't know where that inbetween is and you didn't know when the binary meter is switching from hidden to not hidden. Well I do think this solution with DA is better though cause the filter just took the whole colour out of the game.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I noticed that too but it doesn't make too muchsense to me. LOOK at those shadows -- they're WAY too light for Sam to hide in -- if you're telling me the shadows in this mission will effectively hide Sam -- I'm gonna be a bit disappointed. It's just TOO light and having to turn down my brightness a lot will suck especially since this appears to be midday...not dusk, which is how it'll appear with brightness down.

[michaelanjello]

YEah, maybe the devs should turn up the light and darkness contrast in the game. However thatll degrade the realism. Maybe its not enough for you to be hidden. If a guard sees you and youre "hidden" in that daytime mission you still get caught if hes close enough?

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Yeah but from afar -- theres no way they wouldnt be able to see you so hopefully the meter is not that light...if it is...good idea...just it shouldnt be glowing in such light shadows. Those are lime the darkness I would casy on a sidewalk during the day...if a kid stood in my shadow...he wouldnt be invisible to anyone on the street. It shouldnt need the enemy to be right next to you because then it works just like the DARKEST of shadows from the first game. :l

[Andre202]

I noticed that too but it doesn't make too muchsense to me. LOOK at those shadows -- they're WAY too light for Sam to hide in -- if you're telling me the shadows in this mission will effectively hide Sam -- I'm gonna be a bit disappointed. It's just TOO light and having to turn down my brightness a lot will suck especially since this appears to be midday...not dusk, which is how it'll appear with brightness down.

I was thinking the same. But Sameer has a point here though. I just thought the blinking of the green light on his back depents on the camera perspective.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I thought the light change was just a realistic thing at first like...you'd see the glow more while in any amount of shadow but in sunlight the light from his back would be insignificant to that of the sun haha. I'd rather just a traditional meter or even something in the corner near where it shows your ammo/gadgets a thing that says HIDDEN when you become hidden...a dynamic light meter would be best...the green/yello/red system of DA okay..but no black and white. haha. I just hope the shadows that hide you are really dark and could believably hide you. Then the green light becoming more bright would work...but I wish I could only see that or just faintly see Sam yknow? Sigh....those shadows though....cmon Ubiiiii.

[michaelanjello]

WHat about the idea that looking into darkness, it seems darker than it actually is? I mean if you walk outside on a bright day, you are almsot stunned by the light. ANd when you walk into youre house on a very bright day, the inside of youre house seems very dark. In DA there was an interesting idea about the glare reducing glasses(aviators). I mean, DA had some pretty wicked upgrades to splinter cell but It failed to remain to its original roots(sticking to the shadows) NOw im not saying to bring back those Glasses, but what Im trying to say is if the game implemented a similar idea. I dont know if the original version of Conviction had this, but I think its an interesting feature.

I dont know if anyones noticed this, but taking from what Sam told his daughter when she was a little girl. That when youre in darkness its easy to see whats in the light, but when youre in the light, its difficult to see in the darkness. Now trying to evolve on this feature, there is a method to not only pass by the fact that the shadows arent dark and guards should be able to spot sam easily in that tent. COupled with LoS(line of sight), this mechanic could really be useful. This is how I think the mechanic should look. WHen you enter darkness, from intense light, you should have glare where its difficult to see anything in the room but after approximately 3-5 seconds, things start appearing normal and youre eyes start adjusting to the light intensity. THis should also apply to entering a brightly lit area from darkness. When your eyes get used to the darkness and when you enter the light, then there should be a glare for a little bit until your eyes get used to the bright light. Of course, this mechanic cant be broken and should be an extremely dumbed down version of what you get in the game fallout(for example) when you walk out of the vault into the wasteland at the beginning of the game.

The reason I mention this feature is because it is in fact extremely realistic for a few reasons I will mention shortly and it could be paired with the gameplay to make a very convincing reason to how the shadows work. This should be combined with slightly darker shadows and this could be the fairly simple solution. I have noticed that the shadows are too light, and I think we consider the current shadows to be a 5 out of 10 they should turned up to at least 6 or up to 6.5. While when observing the shadows while standing in broad daylight, they should look like a 7 on the spectrum.

Light and darkness works in very interesting ways, and Blacklist could implement these methods, by simply adding in this "glare" feature. Many times Ive player the game Manhunt, and I have a favourite place to play it up North(I live in Canada). What me and my friends basically do is play a version of spy vs merc in the forest(they dont play video games so we just call it manhunt) Since we play this at night, we have access to this massive spotlight, which we shine into the forest. At this point I can play with light and shadow as it scatters through the leaves and into the forest. This creates amazing opportunities to hide. For example, I once stood ontop of a stump and spread my arms out to look like a tree, and my friends passed by my within like 3-4 feet and didnt see me. Granted I was wearing black clothes, but i was partly in light. My face was actually lit up and It didnt have any camo on either. Since the light and darkness was soo crisp, I camouflaged extremely well and no one could find me, despite my obvious location. This is surprising because you would expect the opposite, however Light and Shadow combined plays a huge role in staying camouflaged, since when a person looks into the darkness and their eyes adjust to it, they could see abnormal figures, but if they look into scattered light and darkness, their eyes cannot adjust to the the contrast, and it s very easy to hide that way. That is why camouflage suits are multicolored with dark spots and bright spots. And mono-colored camo is pretty much nonexsistent, since its ineffective.

To return to my main argument,I want to point out that I dont want there to be that much detail into the stealth as I mentioned, because It's a very difficult subject and alot of the work would go to waste, since the gameplay mechanic would most likely be underused and overlooked. Most importantly I dont want Black and White. The thing I talk about is a very applicable topic to real life(as Ive mentioned above). THis is not so much a feature or artstyle as a graphic enhancement. Although the graphics dont need to be changed, there are a few tweaks that could significantly upgrade the SC experience and the universe's realism/believability. But a simple addition such as glare when you exit a dark area for a few seconds, and enhanced darkness for the short period of time when you enter a slightly darker area, all coupled with shadows looking darker from outside them, and bright light looking brighter from within the shadows, would not only make the game significantly more complex and deep, it would also benefit the player and make him feel in a more dynamic and immersive world. All this done with a few minor tweaks in the game. Hopefully my essay wont go to waste.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

No no...what Sam says to his daughter is true. your eyes adjust to darkness when in it, but outside of it, they're adjusted to the light and thus can't see anything but darkness...but those shadows...when you look at them...ARE NOT dark at all. Look at the cliff face right before he gets into the room with Jadid, not the frogger wall, the other one, right after the airstrike...look at it BEFORE he enters and TELL ME you wouldn't be able to see someone in that shadow. You would, you'd be like "oh look, theres a guy climbing that wall..." I mean, Sam's camo does go a long way with making him hard to see at a GLANCE but you would see that kind of movement. Now do you get what I'm saying? I'm not bashing the system...binary is fine if it's done well but the shadows need to seem like they'd actually hide Sam and so far it doesn't look like it. Maybe only for this misison they're light and they're playing off the camo thing or something but I really hope the devs can get the shadows much darker. Obviously the shadow is realistic here but then make this mission a Line of Sight stealth like Kinshasha was while the night missions are Light and Shadow stealth. I'd rather LofS than L and S for an outdoor mission if it'd mean more realism....suddenly becoming invisible to enemies even though you're clearly visible is just plain silly and very VIDEO GAMEY.

I'm still hoping for nightvision goggles but if all the shadows are like this, there wont be a need which will be a very STUPID reason for not needing NVG. >.<

[michaelanjello]

No no...what Sam says to his daughter is true. your eyes adjust to darkness when in it, but outside of it, they're adjusted to the light and thus can't see anything but darkness...but those shadows...when you look at them...ARE NOT dark at all. Look at the cliff face right before he gets into the room with Jadid, not the frogger wall, the other one, right after the airstrike...look at it BEFORE he enters and TELL ME you wouldn't be able to see someone in that shadow. You would, you'd be like "oh look, theres a guy climbing that wall..." I mean, Sam's camo does go a long way with making him hard to see at a GLANCE but you would see that kind of movement. Now do you get what I'm saying? I'm not bashing the system...binary is fine if it's done well but the shadows need to seem like they'd actually hide Sam and so far it doesn't look like it. Maybe only for this misison they're light and they're playing off the camo thing or something but I really hope the devs can get the shadows much darker. Obviously the shadow is realistic here but then make this mission a Line of Sight stealth like Kinshasha was while the night missions are Light and Shadow stealth. I'd rather LofS than L and S for an outdoor mission if it'd mean more realism....suddenly becoming invisible to enemies even though you're clearly visible is just plain silly and very VIDEO GAMEY.

I'm still hoping for nightvision goggles but if all the shadows are like this, there wont be a need which will be a very STUPID reason for not needing NVG. >.<


Yes, and I agree with you. Except in Convction, Sam said that to his daughter as a justification for the B&W filter. But that could be actually applied to the game in a non artistic style, that would only ADD to the visual beauty of the game and not become redundant or annoying if its done with certain moderation and on a small degree.

That and making shadows darker when youre not in them, and brighter when youre in them. As well as vice versa for light when youre in the shadows. These 2 things combined make an interesting concept. On top of this, the shadows could be even a notch more dark and the game has a very plausible graphical mechanic which adds to the plausibility of the sitution.

Either that, or make this mission at dusk or dawn. Which would force the level to be darker.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I get what you mean and the feature you're talking about it cool, but again -- the shadows still need to be a certain level of dark before it's hard to see into them. This is llike the shadow you'd see on the side of a supermarket -- no one is going to blend in with it even if it has shade on it. That's the difference I think. It's more like a light shade than heavy shadow. Heavy shadow, when you have direct light on something is DARK. The sun however doesn't produce DARK shadows -- not really. Your example of manhunt in the forest is great but again, its dark and then you shine a direct light on something...the resulting shadows will look dramatic and DARK and impossible to see into unless inside. hese shadows are not that dark. It's as dark as you'd cast a shadow outside during the day because thats exactly what it is. If its dusk, then you have room for the shadows to be darker and not even need to be PITCH blackor really dark, because they sayits hardest to see cars on the road at dusk -- maybe that would apply to the stealth mechanics as well?

I still wouldnt even mind abandoning light and shadow for this one mission if it'd be more realistic and they wanna keep it at the same time of day, though dusk would be pretty cool actually.

[sameer_monier]

DA system is just as binary, as Conviction, but it allowed for "multiple" AI reactions nevertheless. Both had the same problem, you don't know where that inbetween is and you didn't know when the binary meter is switching from hidden to not hidden. Well I do think this solution with DA is better though cause the filter just took the whole colour out of the game.
why I hate DA (PS3) cause it was broken, bugged, and badly ported, you have no idea how bad it was, EX. objects being thrown and making no sound, also why I hate DA system cause it lacked Shadows, yeah the system had 3 layers but it was useless, sometimes I believed I was in the shadow but the light was yellow, I had to use cover in awkward places in the middle of the day next to a guard and the light would be green !!!!.


Also, I think its worth noting ( UBisoft Devs) That at the moment right before Sam runs up the wall to grab the guard off the ledge, he jumps over a baricade and runs through this big puddle. He also does this behind 2 guards. Wouldnt you think that he would make more noise and the guards would notice? Just a little thing I noticed that I believed needed to be pointed out. Changing that could make the part seem a little more realistic. Youd expect 2 guards to hear a person Splashing in a puddle and turn around. Or maybe their headwraps are impairing their hearing?
Good point, though I think it may be cause they were playing on Easy who knows.


Yeah but from afar -- theres no way they wouldnt be able to see you so hopefully the meter is not that light...if it is...good idea...just it shouldnt be glowing in such light shadows. Those are lime the darkness I would casy on a sidewalk during the day...if a kid stood in my shadow...he wouldnt be invisible to anyone on the street. It shouldnt need the enemy to be right next to you because then it works just like the DARKEST of shadows from the first game. :l
As I said it depends on AI Awareness, maybe you are in the shadows but they will see you, cause you are not that DARK area, also when Sam was in cover and then peaked the guard was about to detect him.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I hope they either fine tune enemy awareness so they hear the puddle and things like that or that on higher difficulties they already will detect it.

Also -- I'm definitely going to take off all armor upgrades and stuff and go for gadgets that way it's practically impossible to run n gun without mark and execute -- which I won't be using anyway unless forced -- which I pray doesn't happen at all but if so, only once. I know that playing D-Ops and using very little armor made it easy to die which definitely made the rgen health not as big a problem for me haha

[shobhit7777777]

I hope they either fine tune enemy awareness so they hear the puddle and things like that or that on higher difficulties they already will detect it.


This

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Sound in general needs to come back majorly haha Definitely lacking in SCC and I don't even care if there's a sound meter -- SAR, PT, and DA (360) didn't have a sound meter, you had to judge for yourself how loud you were. So I think it should be implemented.

Another thing....Ihaven't seen...if LKP is not optional -- and it has to be in the game (even though I don't see why they couldnt get rid of it)...could it be a green tinted ghost instead? I know I personally love the look and visuals of a techy aspect and things that imply Sam is using his high tech gear to see things such as the "cover to cover" indicartors being green, etc. I think it would make the visual LKP a bit less....fantasy even though it still is haha. I would prefer to just have it outright GONE on the hardest difficulty or for us to turn it on or off at will in the options. The old games had LKP...the enemies would go to the spot or fire at the spot they last saw you and you could flank them just as it was intended for SCC...only...I didnt need a visual indicator. I'm smart and a big boy...I think I can use common sense and logic to know where they clearly last saw me.

[Andre202]

why I hate DA (PS3) cause it was broken, bugged, and badly ported, you have no idea how bad it was, EX. objects being thrown and making no sound, also why I hate DA system cause it lacked Shadows, yeah the system had 3 layers but it was useless, sometimes I believed I was in the shadow but the light was yellow, I had to use cover in awkward places in the middle of the day next to a guard and the light would be green !!!!.
Ahh the same problem has the B/W filter. Ok I admit it's not as buggy and doesn't look as unrealstic as the dark corners in DA which weren't really dark, but it had the same problems on some spots. Like everything is dark, but the filter shows you are not hidden...

[sameer_monier]

Ahh the same problem has the B/W filter. Ok I admit it's not as buggy and doesn't look as unrealstic as the dark corners in DA which weren't really dark, but it had the same problems on some spots. Like everything is dark, but the filter shows you are not hidden...
Agree, TBH Binary some time lacks alot, I don't know if Binary can ever be as good as full spectrum. ((TBH probably most of my problems with DA was cause the PS3 was badly ported, something I hope isn't the case with SCB))

Regarding the whole dark thing, this is one thing I want from SAR, SAR had pitch black darkness, sometimes especially in the CIA Mission I had to use the NVG just to see where I was, I loved that.

[sameer_monier]

If I can't see Sam - He's successfully hidden. If I CAN - Well, duh. Anywhere in between is the same theory.
indeed, though to be honest I don't believe I ever had that in any other title other than SAR, not even in CT.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Sameer....YES!!! That is EXACTLY what I want. SAR had the most dramatic and coolest shadows. Each subsequent game had lighter and lighter shadows. PT was like a notch brighter, CT had some spots where you could still clearly define Sam and your eyes would have adjusted and yet the guards cannot see him, then DA dropped shadows more and then SCC's shadows were pitiful. Not to mention both had the binary system. If they're going to through "EXECUTE READY" or "DETECTED!" they might as well slap on a dunamic, full light meter. DA for the original xbox seems to have a pic of Sam in the corner that fades to black and gets lighter and lighter. Works the same way and I wouldn't mind even something like that (doesnt have to be a pic of Sam but you get what I mean. btw...I THINK that's what it has -- could be wrong.

Anyway. I don't get why dynamic light/shadow system is so scary for them to implement. It actually makes it harder for casual players if the system is binary for the aforementioned reasons: isn't always responsive, hard totell what will hide you, etc. With the meter, it's better for Ghosts but more over Panthers as well. Now they can go through shadows and see when the shadows become lighter and lighter and can void that path and find a quicker and more efficient route. It's silly to have binary where pretty much any amount of shadow will magically hide you. Oh and it's completely arbitrary. Some shadows that hide you in one spot -- will not work in another because why? Well no reason. but they just didn't decide, for whatever reason, that those shadows will hide you.

It seems like the shadows in SCC were sprinkled around in an unnatural way as an after thought and then DA tried to simplify it and thought that going from green to yellow would act just like when the light meter starts going up only the problem is that as soon as it turns to yellow it could turn to red if an enemy is right there.

[sameer_monier]

Bob you are not wrong, it was Sam's pic :D, was cool system BTW.

As for Binary, well I will disagree, Simple = Better for Casual, you think someone want to go into the trouble we went through in SAR with moving Sam steps to be in total darkness ?!, naaah, they want something quick, or maybe that is just what I think ?!.

I guess sooner or later (hopefully sooner) we will see how stealth is for a start, then we will see how the shadows work later on, I am interested to see how the E3 Level will be stealth-ed in day light.

BTW your location is giving me the creep :D

[Jazz117Volkov]

@ Sameer/Bob
One reason Double Agent on the X360 had such nasty shadows (don't confuse 'shadows' with 'shading' ) is because it used baked lighting. Think of the cruise ship when you're shimmying along the side--you can see 'Sam's' shadow sitting ontop of the 'boats' shadow--cause the environmental shadows are part of the environmental textures, therefore Sam's dynamic shadow sits on top.
That's why nothing is ever very dark... it's ugly for an L&S game.
Reason? Performance I'd say. Full dynamic lighting is system killer, and Double Agent ran like a bttch as it was.

Just one of the reasons I laugh when anyone says Double Agent looks better then Conviction.
Give me accuracy and detail over pixie-dust any day -- (X360 Double Agent graphics = pixie-dust)

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

>.< I think DA had better graphics............

My justification is because Sam looked beautifully rendered and the rain was an even better form of CT's system and stuff like that. SCC always seemed so bland. Not bad by any means but just not dynamic. Look at Sam's outfit in the 360 DA opening mission and then compare it to the Eclipse. The Eclipse looks great but all the colors seem flat -- idk how to describe it....not..UNinteresting, it was definitely cool but it seemed...idk. Like light didnt affect it...like there was no shadow on it. Idk how to explain it -- it looks a little off.

But then again...I also turned my brightness WAY down for Double Agent and it looks SO much better. Not perfect, but better. And Conviction I did the same so the shadows seem better but the b&w filter not only kills the graphics it also isn't as useful for seeing in the dark as classic NVG so all the blacks are even blacker haha >.< small price to pay though haha

[sameer_monier]

@ Sameer/Bob
One reason Double Agent on the X360 had such nasty shadows (don't confuse 'shadows' with 'shading' ) is because it used baked lighting. Think of the cruise ship when you're shimmying along the side--you can see 'Sam's' shadow sitting ontop of the 'boats' shadow--cause the environmental shadows are part of the environmental textures, therefore Sam's dynamic shadow sits on top.
That's why nothing is ever very dark... it's ugly for an L&S game.
Reason? Performance I'd say. Full dynamic lighting is system killer, and Double Agent ran like a bttch as it was.

Just one of the reasons I laugh when anyone says Double Agent looks better then Conviction.
Give me accuracy and detail over pixie-dust any day -- (X360 Double Agent graphics = pixie-dust)


>.< I think DA had better graphics............

My justification is because Sam looked beautifully rendered and the rain was an even better form of CT's system and stuff like that. SCC always seemed so bland. Not bad by any means but just not dynamic. Look at Sam's outfit in the 360 DA opening mission and then compare it to the Eclipse. The Eclipse looks great but all the colors seem flat -- idk how to describe it....not..UNinteresting, it was definitely cool but it seemed...idk. Like light didnt affect it...like there was no shadow on it. Idk how to explain it -- it looks a little off.

But then again...I also turned my brightness WAY down for Double Agent and it looks SO much better. Not perfect, but better. And Conviction I did the same so the shadows seem better but the b&w filter not only kills the graphics it also isn't as useful for seeing in the dark as classic NVG so all the blacks are even blacker haha >.< small price to pay though haha

I believe SCB Graphics are really good, I still like CT Graphics the best (except for Sam's Face, I liked his cutscene face, but hated his ingame face)

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

So far Blacklist is lightyears better than Conviction IMO. I can't wait to see the night missions...hope I'm not disappointed.

I liked DA's base graphics best like Sam's face and the rain shine and SAR's shadows best haha.

I have an ounce of faith that Blacklist will feel like Splinter Cell again but the main bulk of me is saying that SCC had false promises, though these ones are way more blatant and upfront so if they are flase -- it'd be false advertising! haha (x

[Jazz117Volkov]

@ Bob
haha, I'm not meaning to say DA's graphics were 'bad' -- they're just not very attractive for a game that (is supposed to) revolve around dynamic lighting.
Turning the brightness down does help a lot though.

You're point about the textures--that's a dislike (for SCC) that we share. The game has atrocious texture resolution, and the game itself runs at a lower res.
Double Agent ran at 720 with high AA and high res textures--made it look super slick (but another contributor to the low fps)

For me though, graphics go so much beyond the textures and resolution.
There's geometric accuracy, character rigging and physics to consider, and on all accounts Conviction wins by quite a margin.

While on the topic, Metal Gear Solid 4 has some of the best textures and character modeling/rigging that I've ever seen.
Perfect balance between realistic and exaggeration--by exaggeration I mean what Deus Ex: HR took way to far (big hands, wide shoulder etc)
Shame all the in-game animation were so simple though. The trouble the team went to only really shows in the cut-scenes.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

How were the physics better...? o.O

[Jazz117Volkov]

How were the physics better...? o.Ohaha, just 'cause
no seriously, they're better.
In Double Agent,regardless of how people die, it looks like someone presses their off button. A heahshot or neck slash, they sorta just collapse like their chi evaced.
In Conviction, bodies fall/die a lot more dynamically and realistically--looks better. *shrugs
Environmental objects, like bottles and chairs are a tun more dynamic and stuff too. In DA everything is rigid or static.

Funny story--the other day I was playing D-Ops (Lumber Mill, 1st zone) and I did a takedown on a dude who was next to one of those box thingies, and his leg disappeared inside the object. Then when the takedown (animation) was finished he sorta flew upwards (bug with the collision object I think)
I was like "wtf to that!" and continued on my way. About two seconds later he dropped out of the sky and landed beside me, cracked me up good.

Blacklist looks to top them both though. Can't wait to see some more.
Forests and a cityscape or two would be mega awesome.
Imagine being in a highrise at nightime (like Shanghai from DA) with THOSE graphics!
AWESOME!!!

[sameer_monier]

So far Blacklist is lightyears better than Conviction IMO. I can't wait to see the night missions...hope I'm not disappointed.

I liked DA's base graphics best like Sam's face and the rain shine and SAR's shadows best haha.

I have an ounce of faith that Blacklist will feel like Splinter Cell again but the main bulk of me is saying that SCC had false promises, though these ones are way more blatant and upfront so if they are flase -- it'd be false advertising! haha (x
you won't be disappointed.

Come JOIN THE DARKSIDER :D

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I don't know...I REALLY need to see the stealthrough before having some ease of mind. I will also need to see more missions and stuff before releaseto make a final judgement.

[sameer_monier]

I don't know...I REALLY need to see the stealthrough before having some ease of mind. I will also need to see more missions and stuff before releaseto make a final judgement.
I know :D

I will only watch the Stealthrough and that's it, I am getting the game anyway, so I don't want to spoil anything, and TBH Ubisoft is excessive with the marketing, I spoiled GRFS & SCC, I won't make the same mistake with SCB.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Neither will I -- if they show more missions in depth, I'm gonna watch them on mute and hope to be pleasantly surprised by the story but if not...hopefully the missions are fun to play. If the stealthrough is utterly pitiful -- I may not buy it unless they can SERIOUSLY convince me somehow.

[sameer_monier]

Neither will I -- if they show more missions in depth, I'm gonna watch them on mute and hope to be pleasantly surprised by the story but if not...hopefully the missions are fun to play. If the stealthrough is utterly pitiful -- I may not buy it unless they can SERIOUSLY convince me somehow.
Not even mute will help with me, knowing what the levels look like is spoiler to me, I will experience it all first hand :D

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

LOL I'd forget by the time of release 'cause I'd block it out and only retain the info that theyre good or not (x

[Andre202]

I believe SCB Graphics are really good, I still like CT Graphics the best (except for Sam's Face, I liked his cutscene face, but hated his ingame face)

I think they are still at polishing the graphics there. Especially for the PC they could still increase the resolution of some textures a lot.

[cap10a]

an AWESOME co-op mission would be like the one shown in the CGI trailer... partner goes through the building while u provide sniper support.

[Andre202]

I actually thought the CGI was a lot over the top action. I am not sure if I would like to see a similar mission in the Coop campaign.

[sameer_monier]

I think they are still at polishing the graphics there. Especially for the PC they could still increase the resolution of some textures a lot.
Somehow it feels the game is early on, I mean the Graphics will get better I am sure of it ((I wonder if it will be the same graphical jump between SCC2009 & SCC2010)), the animation it still not final, it seems Eric just joined ((any idea when did he join the team ?!)), I hope it doesn't suffer a delay.


I actually thought the CGI was a lot over the top action. I am not sure if I would like to see a similar mission in the Coop campaign.
Totally Agree, That's why I hate all sort of CGI, most of the time they are action-y, and not to mention doesn't represent the game at all, I love it when Publishers make ingame footage.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Not to mention...what a terrible mission that'd be for co-op. Hey...you um....sit still and snipe and not get into any of the action while I'm forced to sneak through places you can't reach with your sniper, etc. Or depending on the map...sniper kills everyone before the guy inside can do anything. That'd be a terrible co-op experience. Regarding the trailer -- yes, way too action although I liked the location and would love if it was in the game if AND ONLY if you could stealthily go through. Imagine KOing some people behind some boxes, sneaking to a truck and then riding on the underbelly of it and then rolling out like in DA, going through the building, rappeling, going through a vent, etc. It'd be a fun mission. I wouldn't even mind if it's set at tha time of day, sunset -- it'd feel a lot like a mix of different PT missions -- the time of day being similar to the jungle missions and LAX and the actual mission seemed like the opening cinematic for PT not to mention the Jakarta mission, etc.(x

[michaelanjello]

Actually I wouldnt mind having a co-op mission like that. If the area was tightly packed with buidlings and terrain, it would be an excellent place to perform nice stealth action moments as well as close quarter kills. Killing in Motion would be completely obsolete at this point, and since it would be difficult to take out guards fast if you got caught or you meeded to, a coop partner who is a sniper would be extremely cool. Imagine the shooty guy( whos generally not good at stealthing) sits on a clifftop or building really far away and marks enemies for sam, to let him know where they are. Or sam could mark guys to let the sniper know where they are and for him to take em out.

Imagine sneaking through a building and make it a big balcony. a guard turns around at an inconvenient moment, so Victor quickly takes him out( played by your friend). You grab the body and hide it. all of a sudden aguy walks in from behind sam and oulls out his gun, so Vic snipes him out as well. It would be hugely coop based because the 2 roles would be completely different, yet equally difficult and vital. This off course would be a cause for immense communication between players.

Its an idea and it could be applied to only 1 coop mission, where 2 spies on the field would be too much. And of course it doesnt have to be sam and vic. I just used that as an example.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I guess. I've just never liked sitting still and sniping even though I'm fairly good at it in games like Halo but it just seems a little...boring? So I'd hate to be stuck as the sniper...