Blacklist: Hands On

[SolidSage]

Hello, I'm SolidSage and I was selected from this forum to join Ubisoft at E3 this year.:D
I will be getting an hour of play time with the game later today and will be with some of the Executives asking questions.

I will do my best to grab as much Intel as I can and plan to deliver some of it here tonight. I will probably only have a one hour window due to other E3 commitments.

If I get an opportunity during my on site mission, I will update zee Twitterz. I can't get anything in depth on there though so it will probably just be impressions. If you're bothered I'm @NakedSage.

I'm going in with an open mind Agents. I too want to see the return of some of the oldies but goodies, but I am a big fan of Conviction as well.

[The_5_Freedoms]

Good luck and have fun! :D

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Ubisoft chose you? If so, probably because you're a fan of Coviction :P

They should've invited a classic fan to prove to us we can play the way we want to as well (since they already showed the aggro option during the conference).

[Si1entDark]

Ask about variable movement speed.

Ask if you can ghost every mission without being detected

If you get to play the demo; pick up a body if you get the chance and tell us about the animation.

Ask about Non-lethal takedowns

Ask about co-op & if SVM is still First person vs Third person perspectives

[NightGhost1994]

Have fun Solid. You are our man in the inside :D.

[Cjail]

Remember SolidSage you just have the entire SC forums demanding you to ask you the right questions: no pressure of course ;)

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Good luck Sage and may the Force be with you. omg Star Wars 1313....Star Wars stealth game? Or with elements of stealth? That'd be legit. There would be your super futuristic stealth game haha :P Too bad I have no idea what it actually is yet

Anyway. Seriously Sage...I know you like the new direction but please try and play as much like a classic game as you can to either break the bad news that we cant really or that the game forces us into combat no matter how careful we are or to give us good news that the game is dependant on how we play. I'm restless not knowing -- I need to knowwww haha

Ask about things when you can. Like things about Deniable Ops and stuff.

[mistahkmak]

Remember SolidSage you just have the entire SC forums demanding you to ask you the right questions: no pressure of course ;)

solid sage, if you fail expect to see a floating red arrow above your head..... just kidding of course :D

[mudsak]

Questions I would like to see answered.

Will Deniable Ops return?

Will there be any night missions?

Air stikes???? REALLY!!!!???? *facepalm

Can we expect the campaign to be longer than Convictions?

Are the interrogations more like a cutscene than actual interactive game play?

The gameplay featured at E3 really seems to cater a lot heavier towards action than stealth. It's as if the design of the gameplay is more or less... little bits of stealth to set up your action sequence. Is it possible to play through levels undetected while still achieving the objective?

I'm sure I have more questions, but these are the ones that pop into my head first. Thanks, and enjoy.

[mistahkmak]

will there be killstreaks?

[NightGhost1994]

will there be killstreaks?
LoL. Maybe in MP (0,000001%)

[Andre202]

The only thing I am interested to know is if there are a lot of scripted sequences or if there alternative ways to avoid them, so everyone is able to play the game the way he wants to.

[NightGhost1994]

The only thing I am interested to know is if there are a lot of scripted sequences or if there alternative ways to avoid them, so everyone is able to play the game the way he wants to.
About avoiding them, IMO it should be like this:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/680830-Splinter-Cell-Blacklist-Fact-Sheet (my post)

[Andre202]

About avoiding them, IMO it should be like this:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/680830-Splinter-Cell-Blacklist-Fact-Sheet (my post)

The scripts should be used as consequences not as punishements for people who play carefully.

[CovertOwl]

Will there still be infinite pistol ammo? Can you disable this? Will there be some kind of hardcore mode where you die quickly and have limited ammo/gadgets? Will they fix the movement speed (variable crouching, wall climbing?) IS THERE ANY CHANCE AT ALL OF GETTING IRONSIDE TO DO A VOICE OVER?

Good luck and have fun Sage! Get that intel!

[qJohnnyp]

A question you might want to ask is whether these classic elements make a return:
night vision and heat vision in goggles
light meter
sound meter

[Andre202]

Any news yet?

[mistahkmak]

could someone please give Hideo Kojima the splinter cell license, sure sam may have to fight an evil identical clone of himself called liquid fisher, but kojima would stay true to splinter cells roots

[Andre202]

No, I don't think this would be a good idea at all.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

If Kojima actually likes keeping things to their roots such as MGS, then I doubt he'd add in clones or anything into SC if he had the license. I'm sure there would be some more influence from things he's worked on and I'm sure Snake's various suits would turn up as unlockable suits but yeah. Then again, he may only care about keeping HIS stuff true to its roots and may not care too much with someone else's creation.

Can the original team who worked on the original Splinter Cell be rbought on board, if not to make it or SC7 but to at least gie guidance. Find a way to appease the stealth hardcore fans and then add the casual stuff on top? haha

[mistahkmak]

No, I don't think this would be a good idea at all.

i guess it is difficult to tell a joke in text ;)

[Andre202]

i guess it is difficult to tell a joke in text ;)

My bad. I am tired so I may have missed it. ;)

[coltcat]

Ask about variable movement speed.

Ask if you can ghost every mission without being detected

Ask about Non-lethal takedowns
I'll guess the answer first.
I can see from the vid theres at least crouch/stand plus run and walk speed so thats that.

ghosting? devs will probably says the fallowing
"it is totally possible to complete the game with only stealth except few cinematical scripted parts"
non-lethal takedown?
"you can perform non lethal takedown, and the enemies thats being KOed are stay unconscious permanently"

if those kind of answers pop out, that will means devs are recycling blurry quites thats suppose lurking more players from 2009
and the genuine-o-meter will hit the new low, the communication with players is a failure.
its not about not made the game into certain shape, its about the fact creators dont even want to admit it to fans.

[Andre202]

Variable speed is there, non-lethal takedowns are there. Ghosting... How is that possible with these scripted action sequences?

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Variable speed may not actually be there. Not in the context many fans, I assume, want. I could only see 2 different speeds...that barely counts as variable. Second if both speeds are silent and the AI doesnt detect you no matter the speed...then whats the point?

[SolidSage]

Hey guys, looooong day. I am skipping the Frag Dolls party so I can keep my word.
The mission didn't go exactly as planned. The Blacklist site was locked down very tight, I got in at the end of the day and interrogated Maxime. He is an operator and would not give me everything I wanted, tough son of a gun. Along with his special elite unit, I consider myself lucky that I had enough assets on site to get out of there intact. Thanks PhantomQueen and UbiZack.

A security camera did pick up the meet though and at some point relatively soon, we should get to analyze the footage. If our guy can secure an uplink.

Okay the bad news, there was sensitive information that is not mine to share. But, there have been sincere efforts made to address some of our general requests, things that have been asked for have been granted, B&W being GONE for example. There ARE a couple of things that have not or COULD not be included.
Basically it does feel to me that we have Conviction's successor but the expansion HAS occured. There are things that WILL please old schoolers but I don't think it would be wise to expect a return to the bygone era.
That said, I was flippin BLOWN away. ITS MORE BETTER.

What I came away with most from the meet, was a profound respect for the PLAYERS/FANS involved in making the game. It was only a matter of minutes before I realized that Maxime himself is TRULY an avid fan of the series AND Ironside. His desire to please all of the fans is sincere, but he knows it is an impossible mission. The nature of his position leaves him with the hard choices and the accountability. His willingness to shoulder that burden, with a smile and good humor reminds me of Sam himself, just a little.The exuberance and excitement he displayed when talking to me reminded me of the kind of pal you sat on your couch playing an awesome game like Splinter Cell with. I expected a buisnessman and an executive and instead I was met with a Fan and a player. And therein lies the truth, these guys who have EXCELLED in their chosen careers find themselves in the position to realize their vision (within mandate) for SC, just like you would.

The market is favoring story driven titles these days, which demands certain sacrifices at times. There is also the ever apparent desire for innovation. So I am sure we will see some.




I'm sorry guys, I promised real intel but I failed in my objective.


All I can say for certain is that there is a LOT more to come. They DEFINATELY read our concerns and ideas and they HAVE effectively addressed a fistful. But as Maxime said himself, "If you go left, you can't go right". He HAS to make choices.

I am thrilled by what I saw, and am in admiration of the effort to please hardcore fans. You obviously DO matter to the team. They WANT to make you happy. Knowing how passionate some of you are, I am aware that you won't be happy.....but you should definatley be HAPPIER.

MY faith in the team is unshaken. BIG SMILEY FACES!! :)

[singularity_]

SolidSage -- thank you for your efforts. We greatly appreciate you posting here with your accounts.
We await more info with patience.

[CELLGHOST206]

I think Max is a fan of Splinter Cell, else he never would have taken it on. But I don't think he understands it. He is a very creative guy for sure but Splinter Cell isn't really his arena. If Ubi somehow gained the rights to the bourne series he would be perfect.
I think that now he has made Splinter Cell his own, he's going to run with . He is no doubt happy with what he has created, as is his target audience. I still feel that the long-timers have been shut out, despite their attempts of appeasement.

Thanks for the update BTW :)

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Sigh...it sounds like little has been done. It sounds like Conviction with a slight bit more stealth tools to use like hiding bodies. That really does not strike me well.....I will have to wait and see.

[kalle90]

I can sort of releate to Beland. I've played tons of games with what I've just started to think "How would I make this better? What would I change". And if I were able to do those there would be lots of angry GTA fans, Gears of War fans, Mass Effect fans, Lego games fans...

That doesn't make it any more right.

[shobhit7777777]

Hey guys, looooong day. I am skipping the Frag Dolls party so I can keep my word.
The mission didn't go exactly as planned. The Blacklist site was locked down very tight, I got in at the end of the day and interrogated Maxime. He is an operator and would not give me everything I wanted, tough son of a gun. Along with his special elite unit, I consider myself lucky that I had enough assets on site to get out of there intact. Thanks PhantomQueen and UbiZack.

A security camera did pick up the meet though and at some point relatively soon, we should get to analyze the footage. If our guy can secure an uplink.

Okay the bad news, there was sensitive information that is not mine to share. But, there have been sincere efforts made to address some of our general requests, things that have been asked for have been granted, B&W being GONE for example. There ARE a couple of things that have not or COULD not be included.
Basically it does feel to me that we have Conviction's successor but the expansion HAS occured. There are things that WILL please old schoolers but I don't think it would be wise to expect a return to the bygone era.
That said, I was flippin BLOWN away. ITS MORE BETTER.

What I came away with most from the meet, was a profound respect for the PLAYERS/FANS involved in making the game. It was only a matter of minutes before I realized that Maxime himself is TRULY an avid fan of the series AND Ironside. His desire to please all of the fans is sincere, but he knows it is an impossible mission. The nature of his position leaves him with the hard choices and the accountability. His willingness to shoulder that burden, with a smile and good humor reminds me of Sam himself, just a little.The exuberance and excitement he displayed when talking to me reminded me of the kind of pal you sat on your couch playing an awesome game like Splinter Cell with. I expected a buisnessman and an executive and instead I was met with a Fan and a player. And therein lies the truth, these guys who have EXCELLED in their chosen careers find themselves in the position to realize their vision (within mandate) for SC, just like you would.

The market is favoring story driven titles these days, which demands certain sacrifices at times. There is also the ever apparent desire for innovation. So I am sure we will see some.




I'm sorry guys, I promised real intel but I failed in my objective.


All I can say for certain is that there is a LOT more to come. They DEFINATELY read our concerns and ideas and they HAVE effectively addressed a fistful. But as Maxime said himself, "If you go left, you can't go right". He HAS to make choices.

I am thrilled by what I saw, and am in admiration of the effort to please hardcore fans. You obviously DO matter to the team. They WANT to make you happy. Knowing how passionate some of you are, I am aware that you won't be happy.....but you should definatley be HAPPIER.

MY faith in the team is unshaken. BIG SMILEY FACES!! :)

This makes me Happy face. Maxime gets a lot of (undeserved IMO) hatred here.

Hopefully the above brings some calm to the forums.

[SolidSage]

@Shobhit and the Cell
I want to personally thank you guys. It is your insightful, logical and reasonable discourse that allowed me to have the kind of conversations that led to my selection for the E3 visit. You, MY team, enabled this for me.
Thanks guys.

I know I harp on Hardcore fans a bit, but I don't mean the GOOD one's like you. I don't even mean there are bad ones, but at times there are BAD comments. Demeaning statements that aren't really fair, or at least considerate of the human being that is the target.
Andre, I know you in particular took offense and I KNOW you are reasonable. I made a pretty broad swath with a callous statement of my own last night and I apologize. I want the best for this franchise and I mostly am making efforts for just a little bit of common decency toward the Devs, who after today, I KNOW, are trying to please us all. In doing so, at times I have been a hypocrite and levelled misguided accusations at a broad group.

It can never be perfect when we all have different desires for SC, but what I saw and heard today made me happy for ALL of us. There are good things ahead. :)

[odi0n2009]

Nice thread.

Regarding coop - is it still 2 player? Or will they increase it to 3-4player?

[shobhit7777777]

@Shobhit and the Cell
I want to personally thank you guys. It is your insightful, logical and reasonable discourse that allowed me to have the kind of conversations that led to my selection for the E3 visit. You, MY team, enabled this for me.
Thanks guys.

I know I harp on Hardcore fans a bit, but I don't mean the GOOD one's like you. I don't even mean there are bad ones, but at times there are BAD comments. Demeaning statements that aren't really fair, or at least considerate of the human being that is the target.
Andre, I know you in particular took offense and I KNOW you are reasonable. I made a pretty broad swath with a callous statement of my own last night and I apologize. I want the best for this franchise and I mostly am making efforts for just a little bit of common decency toward the Devs, who after today, I KNOW, are trying to please us all. In doing so, at times I have been a hypocrite and levelled misguided accusations at a broad group.

It can never be perfect when we all have different desires for SC, but what I saw and heard today made me happy for ALL of us. There are good things ahead. :)


It's been my (our) pleasure Sage...it also helps that there are some awesome folks here ;)
And I'm glad that you were selected...really. You'd be MY choice as well :D

And don't try to take credit away from yourself, dude. You deserved it

Oh and give my thanks to the Queen as well

[sameer_monier]

Congratulation Sage, I am glad you liked what you saw or more like PLAYED :D

So tell us about your Hands On with the game, did you try different paths ?!, were there alternative routes ?!, at least until your video is up.


Great work again Sage :)

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I bet I fall into that "bad" hardcore group. I'm outspoken. I admit it. I let my beliefs known depending on the situation. Most people don't like what I have to say so I'm used to getting harsh comments after I say something fundamentally different to someone else's view. *shrug* whatever...I mean. I don't throw out insults though. Not toward the person anyway.

The game still scares me and Ubi has a loooong way to go to get me to buy SCBL...like....a really loooong way to go. I miss MY splinter cell...

And as much as I believe the creator's views on their creation are above those of what the fans view the creation being (myself being very creative and I'll be d*mned if I'm going to change something because some fans get upset) but...this wasnt the original SC team. It's not Tom Clancy -- just because it's Ubi doesn't make it the original creators. I do believe gameplay has been watered down. There are definitely ways they could have gone about keeping the core gameplay and then establishing a kicka** action side that is easily blended with the stealth and can seamlessly go in and out of...but SCC, imo was the wrong way to goabout it. They made a new game and got rif of the core mechanics and then added in watered down versions and variations that still cater to the ACTION side of things. Rather than stealth being the central focus, it's more of a tool to get to the action or with which to do the action.

Unless SCBL can prove it's done some serious changes to make it more stealthy...all I've seen is an increase in action and unrealistic events and plot points. :/ It saddens me...I wanted SO BADLY to like this game, SCC too. I cut SCC some slack due to its rough development and because for what it was, the co-op was fun. But nw they have a smooth development and it looks like its gotten worse. I won't yell or scream about how they ruined SC...I'll simply fade away from the forums and look to the past games for the stealth fix I want. The worst thing too? Hitman has stayed pretty much the same. That's awesome. It's a different type of stealth though. MGS has stayed the same so for whoever has played those games, that's pretty cool. But now, SC...the stealth game that was my favorite, the most unique, seems to be no more. There is no denying that the new SC is completely different than the original. We wont argue if theyre good games or not...I just wish we had classic SC and that these games were a separate series....

Now the only 4 games that had such an amazing and tight nit stealth mechanic of light and dark...is gone. Some things excite me for SCBL but the features like the knife give me no interest if it just wont feel the same or rewarding... :/

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

No black and white btw? Thank god. Do you know how they show you you wont be detected though? Isaw no light meter....I was hoping for one but of course not :C

Do they expect us to figure it out and use our judgement? haha Seems unlike what they've been doing with SCC and this though.

[FrankieSatt]

What I came away with most from the meet, was a profound respect for the PLAYERS/FANS involved in making the game. It was only a matter of minutes before I realized that Maxime himself is TRULY an avid fan of the series AND Ironside. His desire to please all of the fans is sincere, but he knows it is an impossible mission. The nature of his position leaves him with the hard choices and the accountability. His willingness to shoulder that burden, with a smile and good humor reminds me of Sam himself, just a little.The exuberance and excitement he displayed when talking to me reminded me of the kind of pal you sat on your couch playing an awesome game like Splinter Cell with. I expected a buisnessman and an executive and instead I was met with a Fan and a player. And therein lies the truth, these guys who have EXCELLED in their chosen careers find themselves in the position to realize their vision (within mandate) for SC, just like you would.


Excuse me while I throw up after reading that.

Max Beland doesn't give TWO CRAPS about the series nor about the fans of the series. If he did we would have never gotten Conviction or at the very least we would have never seen the atrocity that was shown at E3 because he would have realized the flaws in Conviction.

You can continue to blindly follow Max Beland and this dev team off the cliff if you want, but I know better. I can see with my own 2 eyes what this game is and what it is not. Blacklist IS NOT Splinter Cell, not even the characters are the same anymore.

[Knot3D]

Ok thanks for the thread.. but so much for the actual info I suppose....

[sameer_monier]

Excuse me while I throw up after reading that.

Max Beland doesn't give TWO CRAPS about the series nor about the fans of the series. If he did we would have never gotten Conviction or at the very least we would have never seen the atrocity that was shown at E3 because he would have realized the flaws in Conviction.

You can continue to blindly follow Max Beland and this dev team off the cliff if you want, but I know better. I can see with my own 2 eyes what this game is and what it is not. Blacklist IS NOT Splinter Cell, not even the characters are the same anymore.

oh ?!, so why did the dev team bring back
-Non Lethal Takedowns
-Cover Takedowns
-Carrying/Dragging Bodies
-OPSAT
-Knife
-Global Threat
-Gadgets
-Spy vs Merc
-Remove Black & White Filter
-Introduced a new health system


oh I know, you will say they want to fool the fans, make them believe that they brought back stealth, while they didn't LOL

Some fans are really BLIND to see around, or even wait, same thing happened with Hitman Absolution, alot of STUPID attacks on the developers, saying they ruined the series, that Hitman is doomed, alot of cursing and insulting due to Point and Shoot & Instinct Vision mechanics, but at the end of the day IO showed them wrong, they showed some that Hitman Absolution still got the deep stealth mechanics, the accidents hits, the more than one way approach, and yet no one of those so called fans cared to apologize to them, no wonder Developers don't like to interact with forums.

I have faith that Ubi.Torn can manage a balance, just like IO did with Hitman Absolution, if you don't want to, then just give up, Ubi isn't going to make a CT2, not today, not tomorrow, maybe in 50years yeah, but right now Balance is the most important thing.

[shobhit7777777]

Excuse me while I throw up after reading that.

Max Beland doesn't give TWO CRAPS about the series nor about the fans of the series. If he did we would have never gotten Conviction or at the very least we would have never seen the atrocity that was shown at E3 because he would have realized the flaws in Conviction.

You can continue to blindly follow Max Beland and this dev team off the cliff if you want, but I know better. I can see with my own 2 eyes what this game is and what it is not. Blacklist IS NOT Splinter Cell, not even the characters are the same anymore.


Oho..Ok buddy...calm down..looks like someone nicked the cell keys again, naughty- naughty...come on now...we'll get you back to your 'room', its nice and safe there lil buddy
*@Sameer...get the meds...fast

@Sameer

Hehehe I remember the state of Absolution forums post the E3 gameplay vid
Felt real good to be right. People were straight up telling the haters to STFU and "where are you now"?

[coltcat]

oh ?!, so why did the dev team bring back
-Non Lethal Takedowns
-Cover Takedowns
-Carrying/Dragging Bodies
-OPSAT
-Knife
-Global Threat
-Gadgets
-Spy vs Merc
-Remove Black & White Filter
-Introduced a new health system
then why took those away at first place? and let Alex still told us that non lethal takedown are in SCC during interview.
backing up by MB's "all you loves about splinter cell are still in the game" if he knews those are important

this kinda shenanigans last time already brought the trust-meter way too down.

[DerSeeBaer]

then why took those away at first place?
To me its pretty obvious, Splinter Cell was always kind of a niche game and with the whole revamp of the game it was probably really expensive for ubisoft which means it had to be released as soon as possible and thus they didn't have the time and ressources to add these features

[sameer_monier]

then why took those away at first place? and let Alex still told us that non lethal takedown are in SCC during interview.
backing up by MB's "all you loves about splinter cell are still in the game" if he knews those are important

this kinda shenanigans last time already brought the trust-meter way too down.
well SCC didn't really need it, it's story didn't really need Non Lethal at all, yet at certain points Non Lethal was there in SCC.
In the Chase Scene all your moves are non lethal.
also there are non lethal takedowns, they are just not the focus and more of automatic rather than manual, again due to not being the focus, I knocked alot of people in D-Ops without killing them, one them is face to the wall

So yeah again it seems there are bringing the fans fav.



@shobhit: very true my friend, very true, no wonder Developers don't participate directly on the forums will all of the insults flying around.

[Cjail]

Hey guys, looooong day. I am skipping the Frag Dolls party so I can keep my word.
The mission didn't go exactly as planned. The Blacklist site was locked down very tight, I got in at the end of the day and interrogated Maxime. He is an operator and would not give me everything I wanted, tough son of a gun. Along with his special elite unit, I consider myself lucky that I had enough assets on site to get out of there intact. Thanks PhantomQueen and UbiZack.
A security camera did pick up the meet though and at some point relatively soon, we should get to analyze the footage. If our guy can secure an uplink.
Okay the bad news, there was sensitive information that is not mine to share. But, there have been sincere efforts made to address some of our general requests, things that have been asked for have been granted, B&W being GONE for example. There ARE a couple of things that have not or COULD not be included.
Basically it does feel to me that we have Conviction's successor but the expansion HAS occured. There are things that WILL please old schoolers but I don't think it would be wise to expect a return to the bygone era.
That said, I was flippin BLOWN away. ITS MORE BETTER.
What I came away with most from the meet, was a profound respect for the PLAYERS/FANS involved in making the game. It was only a matter of minutes before I realized that Maxime himself is TRULY an avid fan of the series AND Ironside. His desire to please all of the fans is sincere, but he knows it is an impossible mission. The nature of his position leaves him with the hard choices and the accountability. His willingness to shoulder that burden, with a smile and good humor reminds me of Sam himself, just a little.The exuberance and excitement he displayed when talking to me reminded me of the kind of pal you sat on your couch playing an awesome game like Splinter Cell with. I expected a buisnessman and an executive and instead I was met with a Fan and a player. And therein lies the truth, these guys who have EXCELLED in their chosen careers find themselves in the position to realize their vision (within mandate) for SC, just like you would.
The market is favoring story driven titles these days, which demands certain sacrifices at times. There is also the ever apparent desire for innovation. So I am sure we will see some.

I'm sorry guys, I promised real intel but I failed in my objective.

All I can say for certain is that there is a LOT more to come. They DEFINATELY read our concerns and ideas and they HAVE effectively addressed a fistful. But as Maxime said himself, "If you go left, you can't go right". He HAS to make choices.
I am thrilled by what I saw, and am in admiration of the effort to please hardcore fans. You obviously DO matter to the team. They WANT to make you happy. Knowing how passionate some of you are, I am aware that you won't be happy.....but you should definatley be HAPPIER.
MY faith in the team is unshaken. BIG SMILEY FACES!! :)

So, you failed.
One of these night you will see 3 faint lights in the dark: that's me coming to take you!
Anyway you convinced me even more than Blacklist will be an enjoyable experiences if we put aside our prejudice.
Thank you very much indeed and remember: I will come at night.

[Joseph124]

Bro this game needs to be a noncanon because of the books!! in blacklist the president says third echelon is shutdown but in books it says that grim is the director of 3E and she is leading splinter cell agents.

[Yabab_2]

Bro this game needs to be a noncanon because of the books!! in blacklist the president says third echelon is shutdown but in books it says that grim is the director of 3E and she is leading splinter cell agents.

Good point... I wonder how EndWar's timeline fits into this now...

[The_5_Freedoms]

Good point... I wonder how EndWar's timeline fits into this now...
Easy, EndWar is non-canon in Splinter Cell universe.

Problem solved.

[EmmaJordan]

What I came away with most from the meet, was a profound respect for the PLAYERS/FANS involved in making the game. It was only a matter of minutes before I realized that Maxime himself is TRULY an avid fan of the series AND Ironside. His desire to please all of the fans is sincere, but he knows it is an impossible mission. The nature of his position leaves him with the hard choices and the accountability. His willingness to shoulder that burden, with a smile and good humor reminds me of Sam himself, just a little.The exuberance and excitement he displayed when talking to me reminded me of the kind of pal you sat on your couch playing an awesome game like Splinter Cell with. I expected a buisnessman and an executive and instead I was met with a Fan and a player. And therein lies the truth, these guys who have EXCELLED in their chosen careers find themselves in the position to realize their vision (within mandate) for SC, just like you would.

....................................... All I can say for certain is that there is a LOT more to come. They DEFINATELY read our concerns and ideas and they HAVE effectively addressed a fistful. But as Maxime said himself, "If you go left, you can't go right".

I am thrilled by what I saw, and am in admiration of the effort to please hardcore fans. You obviously DO matter to the team. They WANT to make you happy. Knowing how passionate some of you are, I am aware that you won't be happy.....but you should definatley be HAPPIER.

Appreciate the efforts, but really? Profound respect for the fans? Effort to please hardcore fans? Guess I will have to take your word for it because I sure don't see it. If he truly cared for hardcore fans, then perhaps he would have still made a stealth game as opposed to Jason Bourne III.

[EmmaJordan]

Look, as a hardcore fan, I have nothing against Maxime other than he created a totally different game and slapped a Splinter Cell title onto it. He seems like a decent guy, but he clearly didn't respect anything that came before him. He wanted to leave his mark on the franchise and he did. He didn't like slow stealth. He thought Fisher was too much like a grandma. He wanted Fisher to be a panther. We got it. He is the developer, he can do what he wants. But, to say that he took into consideration the concerns of hard core fans, well... I don't think so. Not if you lead your launch with that game play trailer.


Sam Fisher wouldn't blindly - in daylight and out in the open with silencer off - take on 25-30 guys. Sure, he might have the skills, but even the best agents would be overwhelmed. Sam Fisher believed in infiltrating and exfiltraing unseen. He wasn't a killing machine, Rambo-type player. He killed when necessary. Sam Fisher didn't call in airstrikes. Sam Fisher only went into places when such brutal force wasn't available


It was good that he let a fan play it. However, I would have preferred to hear such comforting words from someone that was a hardcore fan that didn't like Conviction. If you liked Conviction, then I cannot imagine you wouldn't like this one... Conviction I and II from what I can tell.

[Andre202]

well SCC didn't really need it, it's story didn't really need Non Lethal at all, yet at certain points Non Lethal was there in SCC.
In the Chase Scene all your moves are non lethal.
They should never take the story as a reason to not implement these features. At the end they aknowledged this themself. I just take their word that it was the time other then that I don't want to dig deeper into this issue.

You called out the only issue left. It will take it's time til all the non active members during 2010 til announcement of Blacklist will realize what actually happened whether they liked it or not. SolidSage pointed out that the market wants more story driven titles I understand this and I have nothing against it but you can do it without these scripts. Really... Deus Ex Human Revolution has one of the best stories at this time and people liked that. It's story driven but doesn't rely on these scripts other then the bossfights. You know what the fans critized the most? The bossfights. As cool as you want it to look like the people don't like that.

I like the features which are coming back and I am eager to see if they have a binary Stealth system or a dynamic one. If they have a binary Sound system again or if they improved to have there a dynamic system too. I don't want them to remove any features like M&E that are not forced upon the player. Hopefully the LKP is toggleable but nevermind that. Hopefully the design doesn't force the player to play a specific style. The only thing I am asking is to use these scripted sequences reasonable and make them triggerable like a real script.

It was pretty clear that there will be some negative reactions with so much action again. But take the positive aspects. People loved the fluidity and the animations, the features which are coming back. I think the only thing which I repeated now from time to time are these sequences that force you to play the game in a specific way. It's not bad if you have a few of them throughout the Singleplayer Campaign. But don't go over the top and make a Michael Bay hollywood sequence in every mission. It's maybe cool for one time but that's it. People didn't like that in Conviction and this aren't only the old fans but also the new fans who cannot play the way they want because of this narrative design. You have always alternatives you can take. You don't have only to decide between left and right. You can use other directions, be creative. You proved with Deniable Ops you can do it and it didn't even had any story driven factors in it. I made examples of how it can look like and how the Singleplayer game can provide different playthrough experiences with toggleable sequences. You could do it in Deniable Ops, make it happen in the Singleplayer.

[NightGhost1994]

@Sage:
Intel or not, I'm glad that you had fun and most important - tried. Tnx buddy.

[sameer_monier]

They should never take the story as a reason to not implement these features. At the end they aknowledged this themself. I just take their word that it was the time other then that I don't want to dig deeper into this issue.
Very true, but I think there was a dynamic relationship and mistakes weren't avoidable, with SCC2007 being scrapped, a new team with a new story and a new approach, they wanted a story to support the gameplay they made, then they wanted to add things but couldn't due to time, resources, and other things, it got really complicated,



You called out the only issue left. It will take it's time til all the non active members during 2010 til announcement of Blacklist will realize what actually happened whether they liked it or not. SolidSage pointed out that the market wants more story driven titles I understand this and I have nothing against it but you can do it without these scripts. Really... Deus Ex Human Revolution has one of the best stories at this time and people liked that. It's story driven but doesn't rely on these scripts other then the bossfights. You know what the fans critized the most? The bossfights. As cool as you want it to look like the people don't like that.

I like the features which are coming back and I am eager to see if they have a binary Stealth system or a dynamic one. If they have a binary Sound system again or if they improved to have there a dynamic system too. I don't want them to remove any features like M&E that are not forced upon the player. Hopefully the LKP is toggleable but nevermind that. Hopefully the design doesn't force the player to play a specific style. The only thing I am asking is to use these scripted sequences reasonable and make them triggerable like a real script.

It was pretty clear that there will be some negative reactions with so much action again. But take the positive aspects. People loved the fluidity and the animations, the features which are coming back. I think the only thing which repeated noe from time to time are these sequences that force you to play the game in a specific way. It's not bad if you have a few of them throughout the Singleplayer Campaign. But don't go over the top and make a Michael Bay hollywood sequence in every mission. It's maybe cool for one time but that's it. People didn't liked that in Conviction and this aren't only the old fans but also the new fans who cannot play the way they want because of this narrative design. You have always alternatives you can take. You don't have only to decide between left and right. You can use other directions, be creative. You proved with Deniable Ops you can do it and it didn't even had any story driven factors in it. I made examples of how it can look like and how the Singleplayer game can provide different playthrough experiences with toggleable sequences. You could do it in Deniable Ops, make it happen in the Singleplayer.
well I can't really argue, I find myself in agreement, though I would like to point out one thing, I think there if Forced and Scripted Scenarios, the later isn't really bad, but we are using it as an example of bad, let me explain:

Forced: The last sequence where Sam had to blow up the door, it may have some freedom on how to tackle the situation, but it is still forced around you killing his guards.

Scripted: The moment where a truck came with a machine gun, now here is how it gets interesting, this is a scripted event, the question is can we move around it ?!, it is something cinematic, to change the pace, but we don't really know if we can for example sneak around them, and take another route up to the leader, if we MUST take them all out, then it is a forced situation, but I do hope we have freedom in those scripted moments, they will become bad only if they are forced IMO.

[Andre202]

Well, the script is forced though because it has that background of: "We know there is someone who isn't supposed to be here!" And I would directly ask the question how would they know that. I think there is a way around them. I mean it's not really the problem that they are coming but that they know that someone is there however they got to know that. I would have nothing against the scripts if they were pretty chilled and really don't expect that someone is there. But they are in panic and know something which brakes the whole immersion of being the elite spy.

The forced situation you are speaking of. I agree they possibly won't change them anymore. But there were two of them. One at the beginning and the other one at the end. Using the design they choosed to use you will need to kill at least four people. I don't like these situations too. Adding to that, that they made the interrogations again forced upon the player which isn't really a way of giving options. It reminds me of Kobin's Mansion where you needed to kill the guys at the end too. I was actually more concerned about the script, because there you can hope they can make it toggleable. Scripts can only be triggered if something special happens and this can be used for their advantage. I am not here to cry for the old features, I am here that the team is really giving the player the options which Maxime said was their goal. So use these scripts as if it were the backup in Deniable Ops when you triggered the alarm. ;)

They are saying they are giving more options and I like that, but they are limiting themselfs and the freedom of the player with their narrative design. They know they can do it otherwise. We know it through Deniable Ops.

[sameer_monier]

^^ rewatched the sequence, and I get your point even more clearer now, I too hope there is an option to avoid such a thing, remember in GRFS sometimes when you break your stealth approach an armored truck with soldiers comes, maybe this is the same but more cinematic ?!.

I don't really know, I guess we need to wait and see how the stealth walkthrough video would be like to know for sure if the situation will change or not.

[Andre202]

^^ rewatched the sequence, and I get your point even more clearer now, I too hope there is an option to avoid such a thing, remember in GRFS sometimes when you break your stealth approach an armored truck with soldiers comes, maybe this is the same but more cinematic ?!.
Yeah, Alex was pretty stealthy up to that situation and suddenly they come, shouting around that someone is here and you ask yourself: What the hell?

[The_5_Freedoms]

Yeah, Alex was pretty stealthy up to that situation and suddenly they come, shouting around that someone is here and you ask yourself: What the hell?
Wasn't that exactly what happened with Conviction in Kobin's Mansion?

[Andre202]

Wasn't that exactly what happened with Conviction in Kobin's Mansion?

Yeah the end seems to be exactly like Kobin's Mansion. I mean the situation with the truck. Before you trigger that script, he killed everyone without them being able to call for backup. When the truck is coming they are in panic and know that someone is there. From where did they know that?

Either way you make that script toggleable, like when someone was able to call for backup this sequence will be triggered. Or they get a version that these guys will come anyway but they will be chilled and don't expect that there anyone infiltrating that area.

[sameer_monier]

Yeah the end seems to be exactly like Kobin's Mansion. I mean the situation with the truck. Before you trigger that script, he killed everyone without them being able to call for backup. When the truck is coming they are in panic and know that someone is there. From where did they know that?

Either way you make that script toggleable, like when someone was able to call for backup this sequence will be triggered. Or they get a version that these guys will come anyway but they will be chilled and don't expect that there anyone infiltrating that area.
Didn't Grim tell Kobin Sam was coming for him at SCC ?!, I will replay that level when I have time to check it out.

Maybe something similar happened in SCBL ?!

[Andre202]

Ahh well if you meant this. I thought of this too, but who the hell would tell them there is Sam? The only one knowing about the operation is Fourth Echelon and the president. Other then that the guy Sam interrogated is dead, so noone could call. Or did something happen before that mission? But I mean overall this isn't necessary to put in to much of this sequences which forces the gamer to play in a specific style. In Kobin's Mansion I was also forced to kill everybody because the story wanted it that way. I mean they say it themself. Maxime said it himself in the interview with Machinima that the player should be able to play the game the way he wants.

[michaelanjello]

Oho..Ok buddy...calm down..looks like someone nicked the cell keys again, naughty- naughty...come on now...we'll get you back to your 'room', its nice and safe there lil buddy
*@Sameer...get the meds...fast

@Sameer

Hehehe I remember the state of Absolution forums post the E3 gameplay vid
Felt real good to be right. People were straight up telling the haters to STFU and "where are you now"?
I cant wait to do that!

[michaelanjello]

Well congratulations SolidSage. sorry for not posting this right away, since I am quite overwhelmed by ll these threads and posts popping up. If you think it was amazing, then i believe you. However there is one thing that concerns me. You said that there were things left out because they werent necessary or possible. Do you mean tthings from conviction or splinter cell games in general? Were they key feature? We havent even seen ledge shimmying and opening doors stealth or peeking corners.

Im a bit confused and worried whether they ADDED new things BROUGHT BACK new things or REPLACED Features. I hope I get an answer.

Either way SolidSAge, congrats again. And i think you are the best representative from this forum since you seem to have firm grasp on whats important in a splinter Cell game while still being a fan of the classic hardcore stealth.

[Dieinthedark]

Well glad your back Sage, I asked UbiZach and he said the video would be up HOPEFULLY by Thursday!

[Bassie52]

welcome back Sage!!..sounds really good buddy!!..
From talking to you at the factory, i noticed we have similar prefrences in gaming, so big smiles here to!..:D

You didn't fail, you won!..
Now go and throw the kids on the playcastle!!..

[SolidSage]

Still here in LA. Got time with Creed and BL today (no hands on for anybody) played some FarCry3, Hitman, Tekken and checked out ZombiU gameplay.

I noticed with both Creed and BL that it seemed like only small portions of the code base were brought. They generally showed the same playthrough routing, even though different Devs were at the controls and minor differences were apparent, the general path was always the same. Probably to stop someone stealing the pre builds.

Anyway, I got my Conviction jacket signed by Maxime and Patrick and Phantom got her Metal Creed box signed by Francois and Corey May (nerding out here peeps). You know, looking at Sam on the SCC jacket he looks a LOT like BL Sam.
Patrick sounded very excited about COOP today, he said they added so much more to it, which has me all WTF? There was already more.

Did you guys get to see the REAL blind fire in the demo vids yet? While I was there Blacklist was awarded Gamespots BEST IN SHOW award. You should see Ubisoft's booth, it was THE best set up at the entire affair and the amount of awards and nominations for Creed, BL and WatchDogs is just outright stupid and embarrassing to the other studios I imagine. I think Rayman and ZombiU got some as well.

@Bob
I know your views on C because you've made them in a reasonable way. As you said, you aboid insulting people and that's all I was talking about. You have every right to dislike the changes, I get it, SCC IS different from the older games. I'm sorry it's not your flavor but I understand.

@Michaelanjello
I wouldn't worry about losing SCC tech. They improved some of it, expanded a good amount and bought back some of the things we thought were absent from the older builds. I was told there were some things they just could not do. They have obviously tried some new things too with the air strikes. My only hope is that it doesn't replace any of the Sam play time. I have no reason to assume it will.
Apparently, there was a good amount of base code they were given when they took over SCC. It is that build that they have to work with.

@All
Maxime apparently shares a view similar to my own, in that, Sam was special forces, he comes from a military background and where that concerns spy work, he feels Sam would approach it a certain way, or be used for a certain type of spy work (my words). Patrick even said something to the effect that a game over for detection is what was unreal, Sam would and would be capable of doing SOMETHING in that event. I agree.
I know for a lot of you that runs contrary to how you perceived or played early SC, I personally always tried to use my SC20k to kill but it was so horribly unreal to use. I know a lot of you think the aggro is unreal, but if you watch the demo for BL Sam isn't standing in the open trading rounds with everybody, but instead prepares and then strikes, swiftly executing his attack often times before the enemy can get a bead on him. The player can probably go the bullettrade route if they want but it was rarely successful in SCC on a decent difficulty setting.
I don't think that's what you guys have issue with though as much as the absence of the super quiet and sneaky nature of earlier titles. I can't argue, that did change in SCC, it wasn't available in every stage of the game but in Legacy, not only were missions different, but storytelling was mainly news reels and a PC conversation. Most AAA games these days are telling deeper stories and straddling that movie/game line. Like it or not, asking Ubi to forego that approach is basically asking them to not compete for the market share. It might be good for you but how can it be good for the company or the franchise if SC ignores progression and fades into obscurity?

Someone commented about me wanting to follow the current SC team of the cliff. I sure do, they are equipped with hang gliders and para gliders, they are going to catch the thermals and fly. It takes a certain type of courage and a lot of skill to do and it's NOT something you just pick up. You have to study weather patterns, wind direction and LZ's. Your equipment is extensve and has to be in optimal condition, you can't have yahoo's in your group and above all else, you have to be smart, strong and capable.
I guess you never considered the fact that creatures other than lemmings jump off cliffs....perhaps it's time to broaden your horizons?

I readily admit that I was and still am a HUGE fan of Conviction, so sure, if Blacklist follows on from that and is done well I am obviously going to be over the moon. Just because I like SCC more doesn't mean I liked Legacy any less than you though.

[sameer_monier]

Someone commented about me wanting to follow the current SC team of the cliff. I sure do, they are equipped with hang gliders and para gliders, they are going to catch the thermals and fly. It takes a certain type of courage and a lot of skill to do i and it's NOT something you just pick up. You have to study weather patterns, wind directio and LZ's. Your equipment is extensve and has to be in optimal condition, you can't have yahoo's in your group and above all else, you have to be smart and capable.
I guess you never considered the fact that creatures other than lemmings jump off cliffs....perhaps it's time to broaden your horizons?
http://thecuriousquilter.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/win.gif

LOL :D

[FrankieSatt]

Someone commented about me wanting to follow the current SC team of the cliff. I sure do, they are equipped with hang gliders and para gliders, they are going to catch the thermals and fly. It takes a certain type of courage and a lot of skill to do and it's NOT something you just pick up. You have to study weather patterns, wind direction and LZ's. Your equipment is extensve and has to be in optimal condition, you can't have yahoo's in your group and above all else, you have to be smart, strong and capable.
I guess you never considered the fact that creatures other than lemmings jump off cliffs....perhaps it's time to broaden your horizons?

I readily admit that I was and still am a HUGE fan of Conviction, so sure, if Blacklist follows on from that and is done well I am obviously going to be over the moon. Just because I like SCC more doesn't mean I liked Legacy any less than you though.

That would be me making that comment. You have a right to your opinions and you have a right to believe they are taking the series in the right direction.

I have played every single Splinter Cell game. I KNOW what Splinter Cell was BEFORE the atrocity of Conviction and before the atrocity of Blacklist. Conviction and Blacklist are not Splinter Cell, they never wil be.

You can't remove stealth, which they have and continue to do , and remove Michael Ironside, which they now have, and still call it Splinter Cell.

[SPROGGY]

Excellent work Sage. I too like Max Belands ideas and enthusiasm and I think Blacklist looks excellent. Ive never been so stoked for a game before! I agree that Sam should be an ultra capable "panther"-like badass who doesnt need to run when things go south. I have the distinct privilege of sharing training hours and experiences with a number of SEALs and i can tell you that some of them are truly impresive examples of physicality and capability. The idea is always to be a ghost....until you arent anymore. And when that happens they have to adapt and press on. $hit happens to the best of them and adaptability and quick thinking wins the day.

As for what you saw. Can you comment on what any of the non lethal takedowns were like? Were they Chokes or something more like the lame one punch KO from Conviction? Thanks again for keeping us updated!

[Ubi-Mush]

Anyway, I got my Conviction jacket signed by Maxime and Patrick and Phantom got her Metal Creed box signed by Francois and Corey May (nerding out here peeps). You know, looking at Sam on the SCC jacket he looks a LOT like BL Sam.


How cool is that? :) a lot of SC fans very jelly now. Look forward to hearing more!

[Andre202]

That would be me making that comment. You have a right to your opinions and you have a right to believe they are taking the series in the right direction.

I have played every single Splinter Cell game. I KNOW what Splinter Cell was BEFORE the atrocity of Conviction and before the atrocity of Blacklist. Conviction and Blacklist are not Splinter Cell, they never wil be.

You can't remove stealth, which they have and continue to do , and remove Michael Ironside, which they now have, and still call it Splinter Cell.
You actually could remove Ironside and still call it Splinter Cell, but with him you will also lose Sam Fisher. Other then that Blacklist has a lot more Stealth features as opposed to Conviction.

[Andre202]

@Solid Sage:

I am not getting this really with the deeper story. A lot of games do have deeper stories, I might as well ask what the older Splinter Cell titles did here (weren't they deep?). The people have only a problem if they cannot do the things they could do in previous titles. Developers are very carefully, when they design a story and at the same time want to deliver the player as much freedom as he can get, today. Deus Ex Human Revolution is the perfect example for that. Deep story without limiting the freedom of choice the player has. If they can do it, I think Ubisoft Toronto can do it too. I am not getting at the gameplay because that seems to be pretty good and has a wide variation of features for every player. It would make a lot of fun to play Deniable Ops.

You know I can always replay Deus Ex without getting the feeling that the game is getting repetetive because it doesn't use these scripts which some try to justify in Blacklist's case because the dev team has to go that way otherwise they won't be able to compete with the others. But the other ones don't have these scripts which forces someone to play in a specific way and they are still able to compete. The press is even praising them for going that way. Maxime says it himself several times throughout multiple interviews that their goal is that the player can do whatever he wants to do. When looking at the demo though, the narrative design, is disturbing the success of this goal they set themselfs. I know it's a demo, but after Conviction I am sceptical about that if their overall design equally if going from level design or story design, really does support their philosophy that Sam can do everything so the player is able to do everything he wants. That the Ghost can do what he wants, the Panther can do what he wants and the Action guy can do what he wants. That's not something you can really show off which is why I think it's reasonable to be afraid of this issue. It was also an issue in Conviction. Several people disliked that narrative design which forces the gamer to play in a specific. People hated that in the first two games and they hated that in Conviction, now it's up to Toronto to fix this with Blacklist, but since the demo heavily used that design I am heavily sceptical about.

You said it yourself SolidSage: Broaden up your horizons. There is not only right and left. There are more solutions to several problems, there are more directions you can take. The imagination and the power of creativity is immense in humanity. It always guaranteed that people will find the solution to their problem. I suggested several alternatives for the "forced" things in the narrative department. Noone will have any disadvantages with them. You would be still able to play the game the way you want. That's my goal here too, otherwise we wouldn't have come up with so much great compromises for several features in these two years waiting for Splinter Cell Blacklist. They can do it. They showed with Deniable Ops they can do it. I don't think I will be the only one disappointed when Blacklist will do the same mistake Conviction has done in the Singleplayer Campaign, and the first two games have done in forcing down the complete Stealth route. There is a reason Deniable Ops was praised! Don't always pull out the competition argument, because exactly these limits your mind and we all agree we should be more open minded, don't we? We should broaden up our horizons, don't we?

You know Watch Dogs was at the beginning a very long calm presentation but the people were nevertheless sticked to the demo like glue. You can do it without always going over the top action. I will say again, I do understand why the had this demo and I would be surprised if they weren't expecting to get any negative reactions back, especially for Sam Fisher's voice. But other then that it also represents what they plan to do with that project and I think it's good to see it this early so we can point out some concerns. A lot of the people will realize early enough that a lot they love is back. The only thing left are narrative decisions which will affect us all, whether we are Ghost player, Panther players or Action players. I don't think that anybody wants to have a mission in Blacklist that forces you to go silent or not to go brutal. Everybody will be disappointed when something like this is coming, but everybody should be also disappointed when they force you through scripts and whatever to go into an action loop. Both things are bad. Nothing should be forced from the story and narrative aspective. That's the only concern I and many others have. Pointing out those issues is not only in my interest, it's in the interest of the community and the developers because it might happen that they just oversee this issue. They are also just humans...
Hopefully the team can prove me and the others wrong. I want to point this out now though, because there is the time to do something about it, later on it will be to late.

[FrankieSatt]

You actually could remove Ironside and still call it Splinter Cell, but with him you will also lose Sam Fisher. Other then that Blacklist has a lot more Stealth features as opposed to Conviction.

And you have seen them? I know I haven't and for a series that was ONCE Stealth Based I would expect some stealth at E3, especially since that was the biggest and still is the biggest problem with this atrocity.

[CoastalGirl]

And you have seen them? I know I haven't and for a series that was ONCE Stealth Based I would expect some stealth at E3, especially since that was the biggest and still is the biggest problem with this atrocity.
I think he's talking about things like carrying bodies and whistling, which have been shown.

[michaelanjello]

I dont see whats wrong with Sam's climbing. i think it looks better than it did in Conviction.

[FrankieSatt]

I think he's talking about things like carrying bodies and whistling, which have been shown.

Carrying bodies? I only saw that once, and then proceeded to kill everyone in the tent with "Point and Click". Whisling? What good is that when all you can do is stab him with a knife? No Lethal Take Downs anyone? How about getting around without having to whistle and attract someones attention?

Stealth is being Unseen, Unheard and Uknown. Without all 3 you don't have stealth.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

SolidSage....I think if we got together, we could make a game totally amazing that could please everyone. Maybe that's a little presumptuous BUT...

I agree...alarlms and then the missions over is unrealistic. They even mention that in CT in the secod mission. That's why they should build an amazing stealth base for the game with all the features from CT and DA and new things like silhouette recognition or whatever. Adding a layer of action when the sh*t hits the fan would be great and since the alarms only matter to those who want a 100% stealth rating, some people can play it SCC style. I believe the climbing needs to be WAY toned down....Iwouldn't even mind the same animations for scaling a building that are used in Aassassins Creed. Sure there a bit unrealistic for a 50 year old but at least they're humanly possible (I don't care what anyone believes -- it's not ahhaha)

But we all forget that even CT provided more actiony alternatives and options for when it was needed. the shotgun and sniper attachments were loud but could quickly deal with enemies. I think having at least nightvision as well as sonar would be great.

The action is fine, it's just...there needs to be stealth. :c

[Andre202]

Carrying bodies? I only saw that once, and then proceeded to kill everyone in the tent with "Point and Click". Whisling? What good is that when all you can do is stab him with a knife? No Lethal Take Downs anyone? How about getting around without having to whistle and attract someones attention?

Stealth is being Unseen, Unheard and Uknown. Without all 3 you don't have stealth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2UWLlpWslw

At 2:19 you can see that you can drag the body you just killed with an Abduction (Cover Grab). At 3:06 you can drag the body and at 4:24. Though I think the command to drag is bugged or something. The button prompt follows first when you move two meters of the body away which is a bit strange.

The Knife (Karambit) is always equipped in the demo which means lethal kills, as you know a knife hurts really. If you don't equip the knife you are able to use your hands an so you can choose to kill or not to kill which was already confirmed through official sources. They haven't showed this though and you have every right to be sceptical about that. As far as I know though the features which I mentioned weren't in Conviction. ;)

[michaelanjello]

Are sams nvg and hvg back as well? Because we saw the sonar, but th problem is when the CGI trailer plays at the end they show the SC logo and play the goggle sound.

[SolidSage]

@frankiesatt
SCC did not remove stealth, it removed the ability to Ghost the entire game and added an option to be totally unstealthy. The definition of stealth is a constant issue in this forum. For some it appears to mean, well I am not sure exactly, a super slow but methodical pace? And for others like myself it means a variety of styles, no one being more valid than the other. I personally like SEAL type stealth, in hard and fast, dropping the AI quickly if they pose a threat, ensuring that threat won't come back to haunt me and moving on expediently to the objective. Fast aggressive stealth appeals to me. I also really enjoyed the ability to ghost quite a few stages in SCC. Certainly not all, but I think a total Ghost option would require a very rigid story path also, no action scenes at all. So that is a bit give and take I think.

@Andre
What I mean is that in telling a story that has these violent character to character interactions during the course of a mission, and emerging facts within the missions that alter the course of events, it becomes somewhat impossible to not interrupt the gameplay. The heavy scripting seems to require story events to occur during the gameplay rather than the older style of before and after. Although I remember in SAR, being forced to interact with an NPC in an upstairs office. It wasn't as story heavy, but it was still somewhat of a prototype for the interactions we see now. And as games become more movieish, we see more of those scenes, which feels like more interruptions for some. It just felt like a more evolving story to me in SCC.

@Deepgoe
I was in the US Navy for 11 years. I actually wanted to be a SEAL but it was readily apparent that I didn't possess the athleticism required, even though I have always been pretty physical and capable, they were on an entirely different level. I've been around them while they trained and then on the ships while my Helo's (60's) did their part. Oddly enough, at almost 40 I haven't really experienced too much loss of speed and my strength has increased a bit through consistent exercise. 50 might be a big stretch for some, but for Sam surely not as much. I'm not saying it's all realistic, the climbing is fast etc, but I never considered SC a simulator as much as a game that did maintain a premise closer to realism than it's competitors.

@Er ko/lethal
I only saw the one example you all saw with the knife in the shoulder. The choice popped up and it looked to me like the guy passed out from Sam pulling out the knife violently (probably bleed to death anyway). I have no idea how much variety there will be in that, I'm hoping for a few versions, hopefully not just using the Panther Claw. :) Hey I forgot, the KNIFE is back. How many is that now, 4 returning elements that were AWOL in SCC. I'm keeping count.

@UbiMush
I don't want to make anyone jealz, but this is truly the highlight of my gaming career! If I had known this was in my future a decade or so ago when I first played SAR....!! CRAZY LUCKY:) And what a great E3 to go to, I sat right in the front row at the Ubisoft Media briefing, I could have almost tied Flo Rida's shoe laces together, (all stealthy like). The Ubi folks have all been so nice and professional, it's almost surprising" And yesterday when we asked which Ubi character he would be in real life if he could....well I will give you one guess as to who Yves picked! (Hint, he can see in the dark). I think he felt bad though when the Creed fanatics looked sad, so he said maybe if he had more time to think about it his answer would be different (nah).
I got a cool pic that I will post when I get home to a real PC, my phone and Ipad don't jive so well with the uploader.
Too much awesome for one week! I gave Tobuscus some shiz too! :)

@All
I figure they did me now because I'm so close to being crusty and dusty. You guys have a lot of years and opportunities ahead of you yet.

[Andre202]

@frankiesatt
@Andre
What I mean is that in telling a story that has these violent character to character interactions during the course of a mission, and emerging facts within the missions that alter the course of events, it becomes somewhat impossible to not interrupt the gameplay. The heavy scripting seems to require story events to occur during the gameplay rather than the older style of before and after. Although I remember in SAR, being forced to interact with an NPC in an upstairs office. It wasn't as story heavy, but it was still somewhat of a prototype for the interactions we see now. And as games become more movieish, we see more of those scenes, which feels like more interruptions for some. It just felt like a more evolving story to me in SCC.
The only thing which come into my mind was the Chinese Embassy where you needed Kong Feirong to unlock the data on his PC. Other then that I always felt that the mini-games, information, E-Mails, interrogations which were all optional most of the time were part of the story. You are thinking more of cutscenes of a way to tell a story. It seems like the most are thinking that the missions themself in previous games haven't any story elements at all.

I wasn't really thinking of these violent interrogation themself but the things around them, where I have the feeling that they will be all the same. All of them will be guarded and you won't get to them without killing the guards. "Normal interrogations" like in previous games, which were optional, seem not to return which was also a way of intel gathering. I don't know if that's right but I have a bad feeling about that because both interrogations in the demo were the same, guarded. Every Conviction interrogation guarded. Although you could avoid the guards from Granko but all of them were pretty much the same. Hit him, he won't talk, hit him, he won't talk, hit him, he gives you an answer. These are also things I am sure won't be changed anyway, but I meant something different with "my" concern.

I was talking about scripted sequences which seem not to have any great impact on the story at all. Like the script with the truck coming in being a problem for Sam to pass by in the demo. Maxime told in the G4TV interview that we will have such scenes in every level. These scenes are there and if you want you can ask Grim for help. This way they want to show that Sam is really a leader of an agency and call in help whenever he wants. Now it's cool that you can decide whether you want that help or if you decide that you can handle the situation for yourself. But the issue begins with the script itself when it's toggled. These sequences need to be reasonable for the situation you are in. If everybody knows you are there it's understandable, if you sneaked through that level it doesn't make any sense that they are coming and make such a panic there to investigate the area. It's like going through the Bank mission of SCCT without leaving any trace and when you come back a script gets triggered and the police is coming circling around the bank.

These things can be still changed, because scripts need to be triggered and if you give that script the command not to trigger when you didn't get detected, it won't start. I am not sure how the other scripts are triggered, if they are reasonable and so on. But they should take into consideration, how you play the game. When does it make sense to trigger the script when the player does play the game in a specific way?

[SolidSage]

@Andre
It's a fair point. If you never alert them to your presence, why would the truck be called at all. I see what you mean. Too early for me to argue that one, either it doesn't always happen or the player is forced into a situation where the enemy has to get alerted.
i don't mind nit getting to ghost every level, I think it's almost unfair to ask for that. I don't want to have forced action scenes every level either, but as always, I do recognize that they are telling a story. So I will remain open minded and se where it goes.
Really excited to play it. "Killing in motion" is a big deal, I wonder how stealthy we can be with that, like can we spring it when all guards are unaware and get to them and drop them without an alert being initiated.

[coltcat]

I was talking about scripted sequences which seem not to have any great impact on the story at all. Like the script with the truck coming in being a problem for Sam to pass by in the demo. Maxime told in the G4TV interview that we will have such scenes in every level. These scenes are there and if you want you can ask Grim for help.
wha...? no!
like you said, these scene better be passable
calling all kind of supports in every mission sounds adusing. and senseless story wise, why bother infiltrate when eventually everyone will know you're in the area and ready to engage you.
2nd, if a mission's integraty will still holds after you bring down a hellfire missile(cuz, I dont think what we've seen will be the only airstrike in the game) , that your enemies wont start to delete the data you want, or escape, or commit kamikaze and trigger the self destructive device. than sending one 50yo man to do the job sounds like a inefficient idea to start with, 12 men with active camo and machine guns would do it better.


btw, it's not a absurd idea to show Sam is the head of agency by letting him access to all kinds of resources, it the fact the 50 some years old leader of a super secret blacker than black black operation unit contain maybe hundreds of operator and million dollars hardware need to go down to to frontline field operations by Himself, ALONE.
wth does other peoples in this organization doing? staying in green zone playing with drones?

[EmmaJordan]

wha...? no!
like you said, these scene better be passable
calling all kind of supports in every mission sounds adusing. and senseless story wise, why bother infiltrate when eventually everyone will know you're in the area and ready to engage you.
2nd, if a mission's integraty will still holds after you bring down a hellfire missile(cuz, I dont think what we've seen will be the only airstrike in the game) , that your enemies wont start to delete the data you want, or escape, or commit kamikaze and trigger the self destructive device. than sending one 50yo man to do the job sounds like a inefficient idea to start with, 12 men with active camo and machine guns would do it better.


btw, it's not a absurd idea to show Sam is the head of agency by letting him access to all kinds of resources, it the fact the 50 some years old leader of a super secret blacker than black black operation unit contain maybe hundreds of operator and million dollars hardware need to go down to to frontline field operations by Himself, ALONE.
wth does other peoples in this organization doing? staying in green zone playing with drones?


Agree.

My point about the air strikes is this.... Why send in a lone covert op if you already don't have a problem sending a military plane in to bomb the hell out of the bad guys. Why risk the intelligence asset when drones can be used to identify targets ahead of the planes and your planes can wipe out the entire base by themselves? If you don't have a problem with people knowing you are there conducting military operations, no real need to be covert...

Why risk the life of a valuable covert agent by bombing so close to his position?

[stewedyeti]

If Kojima actually likes keeping things to their roots such as MGS, then I doubt he'd add in clones or anything into SC if he had the license. I'm sure there would be some more influence from things he's worked on and I'm sure Snake's various suits would turn up as unlockable suits but yeah. Then again, he may only care about keeping HIS stuff true to its roots and may not care too much with someone else's creation.

Can the original team who worked on the original Splinter Cell be rbought on board, if not to make it or SC7 but to at least gie guidance. Find a way to appease the stealth hardcore fans and then add the casual stuff on top? haha

All Kojima would do is take out the gameplay and sprinkle in 120 minutes of cutscenes. MGS4 felt like playing a movie.

[michaelanjello]

I agree with the posts about the airstrike. There are more cinematic/ story driven ways to include that explosive actions to players if necessary. Theres no need to call in an airstike if you have a lone operative on the ground. If hes going to kill everyone then might as well bomb the hell out of them, then deploy sam to grab the guy he needs to interogate.

[Andre202]

@Andre
i don't mind nit getting to ghost every level, I think it's almost unfair to ask for that. I don't want to have forced action scenes every level either, but as always, I do recognize that they are telling a story. So I will remain open minded and se where it goes.
I don't think it's unfair to ask about that. Otherwise it would be just as unfair to ask that you are always able to do the Panther playstyle in every level.
In my opinion people are equaling the Aggro Stealth approach to much with the Action approach which is why they wouldn't mind to have some forced action scenes, although Aggro Stealth still means most of the time: Undetected. Which means their playstyle is actually also being affected by these scenes, but since people are rather seeing Aggro Stealth as an Action approach as opposed to what it actually is, a Stealth approach, they won't see this issue! It's more brutal, more aggressive and faster but there is a fine line between Aggro Stealth and Action. Stealth ends there where Action begins and Aggro Stealth is as the name says still Stealth but much much more aggressive. I think this should be realized so people understand the issue here. 66% of the players the dev team is designing for is affected by these things I mentioned. The Ghost player and the Panther player.

If the scripts are like the one with truck in every mission, it doesn't add anything to the story. I know you recognize they want to tell the story and I am recognizing this as well, but these things really haven't anything to do with the Story. Scripts are powerful of making the Singleplayer Campaign experience multidemensional by taking into consideration how the player is playing the game. Blacklist has the potential to have different Singleplayer experiences with every playthrough. One time you trigger the script because you weren't that careful the other time you won't because noone was able to call for backup or did detect you. We shouldn't now ask the question "Does it make sense?" in the gameplay design department but for the "story design department" (the scripts are not really a part of the story) since the team wants to achieve the goal that the Ghost, the Panther and the "Run and Gunner" can play the game the way they want.

It's ok if you are not interested in playing the game in a Ghost approach but others are. You obviously wouldn't mind if it's not possible to ghost every, others (me included) would. I would also mind if you wouldn't be able to play through every level with a Panther approach. The devs may not be able to do it in 100% of the levels, but they should definitely try to achieve that and keep this forcing elements as low as possible. If they are able to avoid them from a player point of view and it makes sense, the player should be able to avoid such action sequences like the one with the truck. Otherwise it would be really annoying with every time you got to such a sequence to ask yourself why you just played the way you played before the script was triggered? This is very annoying to the player and it is annoying in Conviction, in SAR and PT. I would be just as annoyed of this truck if I played the way Alex did in the demo, because he did nearly play like a 100% Panther and didn't get really detected anywhere. I just want to be really sure that the development team is really going for that goal of giving the player the freedom to play the game they want and they doesn't set themselfs any limits there, because it's their goal so it should be their priority.



Really excited to play it. "Killing in motion" is a big deal, I wonder how stealthy we can be with that, like can we spring it when all guards are unaware and get to them and drop them without an alert being initiated.
I think you are pretty much able to do the Killing in Motion very stealthy without getting detected. I mean in the demo, he nearly did without getting detected. I am not sure if you are able to sneak very fast and use the Killing in Motion too, I think this would be very cool to do, because there is a higher chance you won't get detected.

[The_5_Freedoms]

I was talking about scripted sequences which seem not to have any great impact on the story at all. Like the script with the truck coming in being a problem for Sam to pass by in the demo. Maxime told in the G4TV interview that we will have such scenes in every level. These scenes are there and if you want you can ask Grim for help. This way they want to show that Sam is really a leader of an agency and call in help whenever he wants. Now it's cool that you can decide whether you want that help or if you decide that you can handle the situation for yourself. But the issue begins with the script itself when it's toggled. These sequences need to be reasonable for the situation you are in. If everybody knows you are there it's understandable, if you sneaked through that level it doesn't make any sense that they are coming and make such a panic there to investigate the area. It's like going through the Bank mission of SCCT without leaving any trace and when you come back a script gets triggered and the police is coming circling around the bank.
Um... they don't actually say there is an intruder, do they?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuhfD48VRGE#t=3m53s

The guy says:

"Move out! Jadid is on his way! Secure the area! You, anything moves, shoot it! Keep the machine gun secure! The rest of you, start a sweep!"

It just sounds to me that they want the security for their leader to be tight, like the Secret Service would for the President of the United States.

[Andre202]

They were pretty much in panic though, completely the opposite to the guys you killed before. Who were pretty much chilled. The mood changes completely.
If they are really the security for their leader, why do they only come if you are about to come? If that guy is such an important person I expect a high number of guards and security messures being prepared before I am getting there.

It might be that they will explain this somewhere though, but I don't expect that actually. If they do, good job.

[The_5_Freedoms]

They were pretty much in panic though, completely the opposite to the guys you killed before. Who were pretty much chilled. The mood changes completely.
Well they did hear that their leader was coming. The terrorist leader in the last game shot and killed a guy because he asked for gas money.

Maybe they fear Jadid -- that is how terrorism works, anyway.


If they are really the security for their leader, why do they only come if you are about to come? If that guy is such an important person I expect a high number of guards and security messures being prepared before I am getting there.
I think that the arrival of their leader was unexpected, explaining why they're so urgent to get their stuff together.


It might be that they will explain this somewhere though, but I expect that actually. If they did, good job.
There was a similar situation with the Conviction demo at E3 2009. Kobin and his guards somehow knew exactly when Sam was right outside their door because they were knocking over stuff for cover and Kobin sent Anton to check on the door.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZcWdyJUZw#t=4m00s

However, in the retail game we find out that they knew Sam was coming because Grim had set the whole thing up and there were UAVs and helicopters flying around Malta spying on Sam.

[Andre202]

I always thought Gramkos just called Kobin, which is why they knew Sam would come. But well you are right there.

I am still concerned about this things. So hopefully they use it reasonable and do not overuse it.

They did completely changed the end of the level so at least you could kill the guys stealthy before you interrogate Kobin.

It could be done the way it was in the 3E HQ though where Kobin was alone and all the guards were like inbetween and you could avoid them.

As said, this is something you need to play the whole game but I wanted to point this out that they shouldn't to much on these things and that they use them reasonable.

[The_5_Freedoms]

I always thought Gramkos just called Kobin, which is why they knew Sam would come. But well you are right there.
That was only in the demo and the guard on the phone also mentions that Sam gave Gramkos a swirly so there were some things they changed.

It still didn't explain how or why they would think Sam would be breaking down the door that very second, but the released game explained that perfectly (and it had to because in that version Gramkos died).


I am still concerned about this things. So hopefully they use it reasonable and do not overuse it.

They did completely changed the end of the level so at least you could kill the guys stealthy before you interrogate Kobin.

It could be done the way it was in the 3E HQ though where Kobin was alone and all the guards were like inbetween and you could avoid them.

As said, this is something you need to play the whole game but I wanted to point this out that they shouldn't to much on these things and that they use them reasonable.
I think we all learned from Conviction that what we see isn't representative of the entire game and I think the development team learned a lot from the feedback.

The other Conviction demo, the one at the Michigan Avenue Reservoir where they were testing EMPs, was also changed in the final game. At the end of the demo, there was a scripted cut scene where Colonel Prentiss was threatening to kill the scientist and then Sam blew a hole in his head. That scene is gone in the final game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXKZ6nGetfA#t=5m20s

So I highly doubt that demo we just saw will be exactly the same as what we get in the game next year.

[coltcat]

I always thought Gramkos just called Kobin, which is why they knew Sam would come. But well you are right there.

I am still concerned about this things. So hopefully they use it reasonable and do not overuse it.

They did completely changed the end of the level so at least you could kill the guys stealthy before you interrogate Kobin.

It could be done the way it was in the 3E HQ though where Kobin was alone and all the guards were like inbetween and you could avoid them.

As said, this is something you need to play the whole game but I wanted to point this out that they shouldn't to much on these things and that they use them reasonable.
SCC have way too much these forced action scene contain hordes of killing squads without making any sense in story.
ppl always know you're coming, and WHERE to block you, even tho you was going completely unseen.
its possible if you leave a body the whole area go on full alert and start searching for you, and that actually heppens in game it could be intense , but why the hell they gain intel of your movement and jumping right on to road and facing the right way, oh yes, bucez the levels are ridiculously linear, you will have to walking in to defance line no matter what. Frustrating!
kobin know you're coming, mercs knows you're leaving airfield, mercs knows you've just enter the emp warehouse in white box, they knows you are about to go certain direction to leave the carnival, they knows you've just past first generator, the guy taking scientist hostage yells your name, WTF man? I didnt touch anyone on the way here, we got a leak, either Grim is the mole or they're all psychic.

[Andre202]

That was only in the demo and the guard on the phone also mentions that Sam gave Gramkos a swirly so there were some things they changed.

It still didn't explain how or why they would think Sam would be breaking down the door that very second, but the released game explained that perfectly (and it had to because in that version Gramkos died).
You know, that's actually these design decisions you can make. You could do it the way so these NPCs won't know you are there, you can do it otherwise though. It's pretty easy to write such things into the story and afterwards use the story as a reason of why you put in these scripts. I think that's just a way to limit the creativity of the devs and the gamers who are confronted with such things. I mean they can explain these scripts but do we have always to go that line that somehow these people know of someone's presence in that area, do we? Let the the player decide if he wants them to know he is there. People suggested very deep alarm systems for that and there you could use such scripts as a consequence of being not that careful. It punishes you for making a mistake but therefore the devs developed that loop to be able to vanish when you got detected and they can very well use that. People will try to play a lot more tactical.



I think we all learned from Conviction that what we see isn't representative of the entire game and I think the development team learned a lot from the feedback.
I really hope this is the case. There are so much possibilities you can solve such issues. We have spoken about a lot of aspects in these two years and I think an innovative alarm system would be able to make the Singleplayer experience a lot more dynamic rather than being static. Because the more scripts you force upon the player the more it will feel repetetive.



The other Conviction demo, the one at the Michigan Avenue Reservoir where they were testing EMPs, was also changed in the final game. At the end of the demo, there was a scripted cut scene where Colonel Prentiss was threatening to kill the scientist and then Sam blew a hole in his head. That scene is gone in the final game.
You know what they did otherwise though? They brought the helicopters into the game. There is the guy who you killed in the demo at the end. I think we should go back of these overly "unrealistic" sequences. We did here some very long discussions about them and I don't think that anybody liked this design in the long-run. The heli, the unlimited M&E sequence and others things which were just to unrealistic and to much hollywood. Splinter Cell had always some kind of Hollywood influence but it had a very nice balance. So in the demo when Sam is calling an Air-Strike, maybe Grim should advice Sam to hold distance and if he doesn't hold the distance she won't shoot. It would add another layer to character development, to show that she does care that Sam won't be hurt.

[The_5_Freedoms]

You know, that's actually these design decisions you can make. You could do it the way so these NPCs won't know you are there, you can do it otherwise though. It's pretty easy to write such things into the story and afterwards use the story as a reason of why you put in these scripts. I think that's just a way to limit the creativity of the devs and the gamers who are confronted with such things. I mean they can explain these scripts but do we have always to go that line that somehow these people know of someone's presence in that area, do we? Let the the player decide if he wants them to know he is there. People suggested very deep alarm systems for that and there you could use such scripts as a consequence of being not that careful. It punishes you for making a mistake but therefore the devs developed that loop to be able to vanish when you got detected and they can very well use that. People will try to play a lot more tactical.
Well the developers said they are in favor of giving the player options that may affect the story (e.g. killing or sparing someone after interrogation) so let's hope they stay true to that word.


I really hope this is the case. There are so much possibilities you can solve such issues. We have spoken about a lot of aspects in these two years and I think an innovative alarm system would be able to make the Singleplayer experience a lot more dynamic rather than being static.
Did you consider the alarm system (well, enemy reactions to player detection) in Conviction to be innovative?


Because the more scripts you force upon the player the more it will feel repetitive.
Yes. Scripted explosions can be just as repetitive as scripted enemy patrols, it's just a matter of how many times you experience it.

This is probably why I don't play the single player campaign of a Call of Duty title more than three or four times.


You know what they did otherwise though? They brought the helicopters into the game. There is the guy who you killed in the demo at the end.
Yeah… I remembered that as soon as I hit post. That wasn't a very good example.


I think we should go back of these overly "unrealistic" sequences. We did here some very long discussions about them and I don't think that anybody liked this design in the long-run.
I wasn't here for the discussions but I did think about it a lot as I was playing and talked about it with my friend when he played (he loved it).


The heli, the unlimited M&E sequence and others things which were just to unrealistic and to much hollywood. Splinter Cell had always some kind of Hollywood influence but it had a very nice balance.
You forgot the entire Iraq level, especially the bit at the end. You probably remember it too well, trying to do stealthroughs of it.

But, I agree. There's a very significant difference between the Hollywood action of previous games (several levels of the first game comes to mind) and the Hollywood action in Conviction.


So in the demo when Sam is calling an Air-Strike, maybe Grim should advice Sam to hold distance and if he doesn't hold the distance she won't shoot. It would add another layer to character development, to show that she does care that Sam won't be hurt.
It was rather dangerous for him to call in an air strike that close. I do think the developers have considered that, but it didn't come into play (because no one wants to listen to Grim *FEMALE DOG*, as Beland so adequately put it).

[Andre202]

Did you consider the alarm system (well, enemy reactions to player detection) in Conviction to be innovative?
I don't consider the Conviction alarm system really that innovative, but I liked when they called for Backup in Deniable Ops.
It could have been devided in more steps though. Like, first alarm, 5 additional guys are coming, second alarm they are wearing armors and so on... You know, there were a lot of ideas of how you could do it and you may use these scripted events just as well as a step in the alarm system. Like, first alarm, some guys are coming for backup, second alarm more armor and at the end you will get the truck coming in. It doesn't have to be 3 steps, it can vary from situation to situation.



Yes. Scripted explosions can be just as repetitive as scripted enemy patrols, it's just a matter of how many times you experience it.
I think there is a difference though. With an enemy on patrol, you can do everything you want with him. In scripted events that's not really always the case.



This is probably why I don't play the single player campaign of a Call of Duty title more than three or four times.
I actually could play older Splinter Cell titles very often, while games like CoD not. One is heavily scripted the other one may have always the same patrol pattern but you can always do something different to your enemies in the older titles.



I wasn't here for the discussions but I did think about it a lot as I was playing and talked about it with my friend when he played (he loved it).
Everybody on their on. I just thought, for a Tom Clancy title this situations were just over the top.



You forgot the entire Iraq level, especially the bit at the end. You probably remember it too well, trying to do stealthroughs of it.
I didn't want to number all the situations, but yeah I do remember them very well. :D



It was rather dangerous for him to call in an air strike that close. I do think the developers have considered that, but it didn't come into play (because no one wants to listen to Grim *FEMALE DOG*, as Beland so adequately put it).
Hopefully.

[sameer_monier]

I always thought Gramkos just called Kobin, which is why they knew Sam would come. But well you are right there.
I believe it was Grim, who told Kobin, if I recall Kobin told SC Agents once they broke through "what took you so long ?!", so he knew back up was coming for him, it amazes me how many trivial things I remember LOL


As said, this is something you need to play the whole game but I wanted to point this out that they shouldn't to much on these things and that they use them reasonable.
I am not disagreeing with you about the forcing action sequences, but every once in a while that would be cool, especially since I recall them happening in both SAR & PT, it was only CT that had complete Ghosting per say, TBH I found some of the action sequences in SAR really realistic, like the Georgian Presidential Palace where you have to fight some guards to get down to Nikoladze, or the other mission (Can't remember the name at all, and my internet is really slow now due to problems to search for it) where you hack into a computer, and then an alarm is sounded, you can avoid the guards by hanging from the ledge of the window you came from, but the whole sequence was really cool.

So yeah every now and then, but not in every mission.

[Andre202]

Exactly.
There were some sequences but they didn't overuse them as much as you said. SCCT is completely ghostable but it's also completely up to you how you play it. So I think when it comes to freedom for the player being able to do everything you want, we should get back to CT.

[sameer_monier]

Exactly.
There were some sequences but didn't overuse them and as you said. SCCT completely ghostable but it's also completely up to you how you play it. So I think when it comes to freedom for the player being able to do everything you want, we should get back to CT.
I wouldn't mind that at all, my worry now is kinda on the L&S system, DA system was horrible, SCC was better but not the best, CT had a great system but suffered from some Binary situation, I would really love if they innovate in the L&S gameplay.

[The_5_Freedoms]

I don't consider the Conviction alarm system really that innovative, but I liked when they called for Backup in Deniable Ops.
It could have been devided in more steps though. Like, first alarm, 5 additional guys are coming, second alarm they are wearing armors and so on... You know, there were a lot of ideas of how you could do it and you may use these scripted events just as well as a step in the alarm system. Like, first alarm, some guys are coming for backup, second alarm more armor and at the end you will get the truck coming in. It doesn't have to be 3 steps, it can vary from situation to situation.
It might be my imagination, but I think that was how the alarm system worked in Chaos Theory.


I think there is a difference though. With an enemy on patrol, you can do everything you want with him. In scripted events that's not really always the case.
What would you classify the interrogations in Conviction? They're scripted events but they allow you to have control over what you do with the enemy.

[Andre202]

It might be my imagination, but I think that was how the alarm system worked in Chaos Theory.
Similar, but the alarm didn't have any impact on the number of NPCs. The NPCs just got their helmets and armor. That's it. You can improve upon that or you can use an entirely new system.



What would you classify the interrogations in Conviction? They're scripted events but they allow you to have control over what you do with the enemy.
You need to do these interrogations, you can not avoid them. A normal guard walking his patroul pattern can be avoided. You can do everything with that guard, while the only thing you can do with a guy you interrogate in Conviction is hitting him and hoping he will give an answer after the third time. Previously the interrogations weren't forced, they were optional and even skippable if you needed to talk to someone. In Conviction you could skip cutscenes but not any realtime rendered scenes or interrogations. It was annoying if you restarted the airport mission in Conviction for example and you always had to go through all that talk with Grim, hitting her and so on.

[michaelanjello]

IDK if anyone noticed this before, but if you look at Conviction the only cutscene that did not fit in the game was the one where you and vic are in the helicopter with sarah and emp goes off. That the only cgi cutscene in the game other than Vic's cutscenes. All other cutscenes where of in game footage and none had any cgi. Isnt that kinda weird? They mustve ran out of money or something.

[The_5_Freedoms]

IDK if anyone noticed this before, but if you look at Conviction the only cutscene that did not fit in the game was the one where you and vic are in the helicopter with sarah and emp goes off. That the only cgi cutscene in the game other than Vic's cutscenes. All other cutscenes where of in game footage and none had any cgi. Isnt that kinda weird? They mustve ran out of money or something.
Or maybe they thought that one of the most dramatic moments in the game needed to be animated in CGI because of all the special effects involved with the EMP blast frying all the electronics in Washington, D.C..

If you wanna talk about running out of money, try Double Agent.

[Andre202]

Ahh, no I think Conviction fits much more in those lines of running out of money. Rebuild the engine, removing features not fitting into the new game like the handle system. It seemed like Microsoft supported them a lot. Conviction was supposed to come to PS3, Xbox 360 and PC but after they rebuild everything it was Microsoft Exclusive.

[The_5_Freedoms]

Similar, but the alarm didn't have any impact on the number of NPCs. The NPCs just got their helmets and armor. That's it. You can improve upon that or you can use an entirely new system.
Oh okay.


You need to do these interrogations, you can not avoid them. A normal guard walking his patroul pattern can be avoided. You can do everything with that guard, while the only thing you can do with a guy you interrogate in Conviction is hitting him and hoping he will give an answer after the third time. Previously the interrogations weren't forced, they were optional and even skippable if you needed to talk to someone. In Conviction you could skip cutscenes but not any realtime rendered scenes or interrogations. It was annoying if you restarted the airport mission in Conviction for example and you always had to go through all that talk with Grim, hitting her and so on.
Yeah I know I just wanted to know how you felt about it.

Obviously you're not in favor of them and I wasn't either. I thought it was fine in the first two levels since Sam was on his personal mission but after that I just got tired of it. I wanted Sam to point a gun at their head and joke about installing a new 5.7mm hole so that they would just 'fess up and save us both the time and hassle.


Ahh, no I think Conviction fits much more in those lines of running out of money. Rebuild the engine, removing features not fitting into the new game like the handle system. It seemed like Microsoft supported them a lot.
They were able to reuse some features.

But I agree that Conviction had a troubled development. I think it might have been better if it had a more realistic development schedule.


Conviction was supposed to come to PS3, Xbox 360 and PC but after they rebuild everything it was Microsoft Exclusive.
I thought Conviction was always an Xbox 360 exclusive.

[Andre202]

I thought Conviction was always an Xbox 360 exclusive.
My bad. Though it wasn't Microsoft Exclusive at that time.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

how was double agent a lack of money? Is it cause there were no cutscenes? I still think its a great SC game. I'm one of the few who think so but I thnik all the characters felt the same, just in new situations unfamiliar to them. Sam wasn't used to working as a double agent but he managed to pull it off. I believe they drastically upped the graphics from CT in so many good ways and added so many new features. It didn't have cutscenes but instead they gave us something we never really got: infiltration. First mission we swim into the compound instead of just starting inside. The rublev mission begins with you parachuting to the site, and for the missions that didnt have it, we saw some really cool, new things anyway.

The lack of money never really seemed apparent to me....?

[Andre202]

how was double agent a lack of money? Is it cause there were no cutscenes? I still think its a great SC game. I'm one of the few who think so but I thnik all the characters felt the same, just in new situations unfamiliar to them. Sam wasn't used to working as a double agent but he managed to pull it off. I believe they drastically upped the graphics from CT in so many good ways and added so many new features. It didn't have cutscenes but instead they gave us something we never really got: infiltration. First mission we swim into the compound instead of just starting inside. The rublev mission begins with you parachuting to the site, and for the missions that didnt have it, we saw some really cool, new things anyway.

The lack of money never really seemed apparent to me....?

The JBA missions are a pain in my opinion. They shouldn't have forced you to do the exact same thing every time you are there.
DA was maybe running out of money because it used CGI cutscenes which were made for the old gen consoles. In fact, the old gen consoles did have a lot more CGI cutscenes as opposed to the next gen version. Above that the next gen version was really buggy. They should have pushed back the release to March 2007. It released on all consoles but it sold very little compared to older titles.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Oh no...I never play JBA missions except the last one. That's because the whole undercover thing ends as soon as I shoot Jamie Washington and NOT Lambert BECAUSE THATS WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED!

Ahem. Sorry. I still hate how Conviction took a fat dump on everything including character personalities from the old games. But no, I agree. the JBA missions were terrible. Good idea...executed poorly. Very poorly. But every other mission I enjoyes: Iceland, the prison, shanghai, cozumel cruise ship, the rublev snow mission, kinshasha, JBA HQ 4, and the epilogue boat mission where you kill Moss. I thought they were all good and unique missions. To me, they felt like classic SC just with some twists such as two set during day, one in the snow, etc.

I long to play DA for the original Xbox....anyone know if the ORIGINAL XBOX version of Double Agent runs on the 360? I know I'd need a harddrive which I have so yeah. Just wanna make sure. /off topic

[Andre202]

Oh no...I never play JBA missions except the last one. That's because the whole undercover thing ends as soon as I shoot Jamie Washington and NOT Lambert BECAUSE THATS WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED!

Ahem. Sorry. I still hate how Conviction took a fat dump on everything including character personalities from the old games. But no, I agree. the JBA missions were terrible. Good idea...executed poorly. Very poorly. But every other mission I enjoyes: Iceland, the prison, shanghai, cozumel cruise ship, the rublev snow mission, kinshasha, JBA HQ 4, and the epilogue boat mission where you kill Moss. I thought they were all good and unique missions. To me, they felt like classic SC just with some twists such as two set during day, one in the snow, etc.

I long to play DA for the original Xbox....anyone know if the ORIGINAL XBOX version of Double Agent runs on the 360? I know I'd need a harddrive which I have so yeah. Just wanna make sure. /off topic

I am completely with you there. They completely dumbed the character development in Conviction.

[SolidSage]

I don't think it's unfair to ask about that. Otherwise it would be just as unfair to ask that you are always able to do the Panther playstyle in every level.
In my opinion people are equaling the Aggro Stealth approach to much with the Action approach which is why they wouldn't mind to have some forced action scenes, although Aggro Stealth still means most of the time: Undetected. Which means their playstyle is actually also being affected by these scenes, but since people are rather seeing Aggro Stealth as an Action approach as opposed to what it actually is, a Stealth approach, they won't see this issue! It's more brutal, more aggressive and faster but there is a fine line between Aggro Stealth and Action. Stealth ends there where Action begins and Aggro Stealth is as the name says still Stealth but much much more aggressive. I think this should be realized so people understand the issue here. 66% of the players the dev team is designing for is affected by these things I mentioned. The Ghost player and the Panther player.

If the scripts are like the one with truck in every mission, it doesn't add anything to the story. I know you recognize they want to tell the story and I am recognizing this as well, but these things really haven't anything to do with the Story. Scripts are powerful of making the Singleplayer Campaign experience multidemensional by taking into consideration how the player is playing the game. Blacklist has the potential to have different Singleplayer experiences with every playthrough. One time you trigger the script because you weren't that careful the other time you won't because noone was able to call for backup or did detect you. We shouldn't now ask the question "Does it make sense?" in the gameplay design department but for the "story design department" (the scripts are not really a part of the story) since the team wants to achieve the goal that the Ghost, the Panther and the "Run and Gunner" can play the game the way they want.

It's ok if you are not interested in playing the game in a Ghost approach but others are. You obviously wouldn't mind if it's not possible to ghost every, others (me included) would. I would also mind if you wouldn't be able to play through every level with a Panther approach. The devs may not be able to do it in 100% of the levels, but they should definitely try to achieve that and keep this forcing elements as low as possible. If they are able to avoid them from a player point of view and it makes sense, the player should be able to avoid such action sequences like the one with the truck. Otherwise it would be really annoying with every time you got to such a sequence to ask yourself why you just played the way you played before the script was triggered? This is very annoying to the player and it is annoying in Conviction, in SAR and PT. I would be just as annoyed of this truck if I played the way Alex did in the demo, because he did nearly play like a 100% Panther and didn't get really detected anywhere. I just want to be really sure that the development team is really going for that goal of giving the player the freedom to play the game they want and they doesn't set themselfs any limits there, because it's their goal so it should be their priority.


Don't get me wrong, I really like the Ghosting, it's very rewarding. To me though, Ghosting means sneaking through the game, never shooting lights, or interacting with the AI, leaving no trail or evidence of your presence. For that type of Ghosting to be available it would mean things like interrogations would have to be removed completely, right? Any kind of story altering element in the game, like Sam being surprised by an elite counter agent couldn't be used for example.
Sam would basically have to be able to go through the game and bypass everything, even hacking for data if it would leave a trace, and lock picking would require re-locking of doors etc. It's THAT kind of Ghosting that I think asks too much of the product. What kind of story would the Devs be allowed to tell if Sam had to pass every element without ever being involved in a traceable manner?
The team's are creative minded people, even Yves said that they need room to be creative or they won't be inspired at all by the projects they work on and the products will suffer.

[CoastalGirl]

I do like to ghost entire missions, but if I can at least do it most of the time, I guess it'd be okay...though I don't think it's too much to ask to be able to sneak through a stealth game. ;)

[SolidSage]

Well as long as you kill them before they raise the alarm it can still be sneaky. I think SCC only allows that up through the end of the second mission (helo evac), then it's sporadic.
Max said they really built Blacklist around the three approaches, Ghost, Panther and Assault...I think he likes Panther the best, me too, seems more Spec Ops to me. I am interested to see how much deeper the Ghosting will be this time around. It has to be more if he bothered to emphasize it right?

[CoastalGirl]

Well as long as you kill them before they raise the alarm it can still be sneaky. I think SCC only allows that up through the end of the second mission (helo evac), then it's sporadic.
Max said they really built Blacklist around the three approaches, Ghost, Panther and Assault...I think he likes Panther the best, me too, seems more Spec Ops to me. I am interested to see how much deeper the Ghosting will be this time around. It has to be more if he bothered to emphasize it right?Well even I don't ghost all the time, but I like the option.

And I hope so! I think it will depend a lot on the level design. The options in SCC allowed players to sneak, certainly, but the mini-sandbox maps we saw in D-Ops, especially the DLC maps which are AWESOME, were just so much more fun to sneak around. Plus, it felt like a much higher percentage of the enemies could at least be flanked for stealthy grabs without much fuss.

[SolidSage]

@Coastal
I agree wholeheartedly on that. The co-op maps were much better for a freer play style. I spend 99% of my time on the co-op stuff. It's mo better. They just felt like more real spaces. The perimeter restrictions in SP were always evident, ever present in your awareness. the co-op maps felt more like real buildings/spaces.....fully accessible.

[Andre202]

Don't get me wrong, I really like the Ghosting, it's very rewarding. To me though, Ghosting means sneaking through the game, never shooting lights, or interacting with the AI, leaving no trail or evidence of your presence. For that type of Ghosting to be available it would mean things like interrogations would have to be removed completely, right? Any kind of story altering element in the game, like Sam being surprised by an elite counter agent couldn't be used for example.
The team is able to do everything with the story, but I think they shouldn't go over the top with that and begin to neglect most of the Tom Clancy principals the franchise set itself. You don't have to remove any interrogations, although if you think the interrogations in Blacklist are the only way to interrogate a person you definitely would have to remove them. I don't mind them as much though, although after reading through what is actually possible in these scenes, I think the methods which are used are questionable when I think of Sam's character. We had such story elements in Conviction and a lot of them weren't believeable at all. Sure some may have enjoyed that but I am sure they would have enjoyed more believeable and more grounded sequences too. I always thought that people who gone through the whole franchise whether they liked Conviction or not as much (and are still with the franchise) seem to let something pass to easily when it comes to these sequences affecting their gameplay. It's like they completely forgot that the franchise was building on the principals of Tom Clancy.

You get to a big problem if you overuse these sequences. In previous games these sequences were designed that way that you don't even notice them as much (or it seems that nobody is noticing them), because they are being very well implemented or aren't as big as in Conviction. I do agree that previous titles could have had more of these story elements though. Just to make some examples to show that you can do it otherwise without overcharging the goal to have more of these "action" sequences: In Seoul when the Jet is going down, in Kokubo Sosho when the rockets are fired before you could shut them down, in Displace when you are in the Server Room and NPCs are coming to look after something, and so on. The mission and story design still allowed you to go the way you want in these situations. These are the "random" situations which are compareable to the example you did with the elite counter agent who is supposed to suprise Sam. Now think of such a situation and combine that with the philosophy the team in Toronto has in mind (Sam being the most elite agent, so he should be able to pretend of being surprised). Do you make a cutscene or an NPC who is stalking Sam Fisher down without you knowing that? This way you would integrate this situation/ the idea/ the story directly into the gameplay instead of being forced to be suprised by that elite agent. Exactly these kind of things were integrated in previous games, specificly in SCCT to allow the gamer to react to these situations as the gamer wants. That's why people were dying for the feature of being able to use non-lethal and lethal takedowns to come back. I feel kind of strange that people don't notice such kind of things and are more viewing the story elements being in the cutscenes rather then really being integrated into the gameplay in the legacy series. Gathering information is the goal of a Splinter Cell operative. Infiltrate the area and get back to secure the information you gathered. Everything you do in previous games and which let you know more about whatever you might need to know in those missions is a part of the story.

They might use these action sequences, but they shouldn't overuse them (which seems to be the case though, because Beland confirmed every mission has such a thing) and they shouldn't go over the top with them. I really don't want another helicopter sequence or "I am Hulk" situations but it seems like they toped that in the demo anyway which is why I am not really supporting these sequences or see any joy or sense in them. Others may like them but I don't see how they fit into the series at all. Yeah I know some people will go on and begin to justify that with the mass appeal it needs to achieve. But why the hell are they adding so much bombastic sequences into the end of the demo. Mass Appeal? Sorry, I think only the press was given the extended version of the demo, which is why I really don't get that they are adding another action layer there where Sam is bombing air-craft defense systems instead of showing of some features they added back. After all it wasn't supposed to be viewed by public.
We could begin to justify everything with "Mass Appeal", just as we justify the demo and a lot have justified in Conviction times. Just as a lot used the story as a justification for a lot of things instead being able to argue with the "evolution" of Stealth which the Story didn't really bring forward at all. I think we should have some serious discussion about this design and shouldn't downplay or knock back that issue.




Sam would basically have to be able to go through the game and bypass everything, even hacking for data if it would leave a trace, and lock picking would require re-locking of doors etc. It's THAT kind of Ghosting that I think asks too much of the product. What kind of story would the Devs be allowed to tell if Sam had to pass every element without ever being involved in a traceable manner?
The Design of SCCT made it possible to bypass such things. But first of all I have to say that previous games aren't supposed to be played by Ghosting, however the Design does allow for that approach and the game got known for that design and freedom it gave to the player. When I play the games the first time, I don't go for a Ghosting approach, because I also want to be able to enjoy the story and you are only able to ghost if you know the story, the information you need. The first time I am playing, I am trying to get as much information out of the first playthrough as possible, so I also was someone who enjoyed knocking out everybody to know who has something to say and who isn't interrogable. You won't be able to open the door without having the information of the doorcode. The same goes for several different situations like where am I able to find the information I need for the objective so I don't need to interrogate someone and therefore knock him down. So exploration was key here, that's not possible with the Conviction design though. It's more like trying several questionable methods to get through something like a Ghost instead of exploring how you can get through that mission like a Ghost.
You won't be able to bypass hacking, interrogations and other things when playing the first time. It's that what keeps me playing the games, ghosting the levels as much as possible and improving with every playthrough. You get better and dig deeper til it's perfection.

I think your example with the re-locking of doors isn't fair. You proceed this issue from a very extreme point which even the legacy series wasn't able to do. While I might like the idea I wouldn't really ask for that. I will bet that you could be able to incorperate most of these sequences into the gameplay, so it's up to you how the mission ends. I am not really getting worked up about the interrogations, while I still think they need to go sure there that you might be able to get the person alone without killing the guards or at least have there some variation, which wasn't the case in Conviction. I really mean the "big" action sequences.

Talking about what kind of story they should tell. Well, what kind of a story do you expect from a Batman film? What kind of story do you expect from a Call of Duty title? What kind of story do you expect from Star Wars or James Bond? What kind of story do you expect from MGS, Hitman etc.? Do you know where I am getting at?
I think they have a lot of things and possibilities to tell a story. You just created a very cool idea with that elite agent. Now integrate him into the game and let him stalk Sam Fisher down or do you want to make a sequence of it where it is written on paper that he will surprise you? It's both the same thing, idea, story. But one of them let's you do whatever you want to do and the other just forces you to get along with the decision of the script writer. That's where gameplay and story can be combined in a very intelligent manner and which happened in previous games. You can just get along with their decisions though and begin to justify it with whatever you want to justify it.
Again I am not minding these small sequences like the interrogations (while I still think you could incorperate such a design there too) but it's mostly meant for these big sequences which seem to be in every mission according to Beland.

You know, they are allowed to tell a Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell story. What do you expect of a Tom Clancy title and what do you expect from a Splinter Cell title? Combined? You know the book Tom Clancy Without Remorse? I haven't read it yet, but from what I have heard, it would have made a very good template for Conviction.

We could just as well take the argument, that they are allowed to do with Splinter Cell what they want. I hate these arguments though because it's a knockout argument and then I could just as well stop arguing and discussing here at all.




The team's are creative minded people, even Yves said that they need room to be creative or they won't be inspired at all by the projects they work on and the products will suffer.
That's the thing they are creative and they can put even your idea into the game and design the game that way so you are able to decide the outcome there. I don't think it's creative always to put in action sequences. While I don't know if it's really the case, I do want to point that out now, later on it will be to late for something like that.

While such a design I suggested (which Ubisoft already used though) may not be that easy, we have a very creative development team in Toronto and I do think they can pull this off what they have done sometime ago already. It's funny that Ubisoft very often realised these very good ideas themselfs sometime ago, but don't use them anymore. Although I think it's superior to the design they have come up with in Conviction and may come up with in Blacklist.

I don't want to say that ghosting is the only way of Stealth that's not the case but people forget very often something when they remind classic stealth veterans of aggro stealth being also a form of stealth... They tend to forget that Aggro Stealth isn't Action and that both (Ghost and Panther) are actually in the same department and have the same interest. I think it's wrong to justify Action with Aggro Stealth. That's not what Aggro Stealth is. I just want to go sure that the complete Stealth department will be really able to enjoy the Singleplayer Campaign.

[CamberGreber]

Damm dude you Freaking Nailed it.

[SolidSage]

@Andre
Your points are very good. I think there is danger in overusing a story tool, like the SCC interrogations, and too many cut scenes during game play can be detrimental. I was extreme with my definition of super ghosting but I wasn't saying that's what you wanted, just making an example of how that deep of a Ghost surely isn't possible.

Avoiding the "mass appeal" argument, which you are correct about not being a good excuse for everything, I think there may be an addictive quality in game development to race for new tech, and to outdo competitors in the movie like arena and even to progress game tools to compete with other franchise models. I don't know. I mean I AM seeing some similarities in the evolvement of SC tech to other games like AC and Batman and COD, etc.
I don't see it as copying, or trying to grab those audiences though. I think what we really have is Developers owning a code set that they want to push to the limit. They want to be innovative and incorporate as much as they can into their own source code or whatever it's called. So we see more and more variations of tools that are present in other games all the time. I don't think it's copying as much as inherent limitations to what CAN be done. Like with a car, your engine can only go so big, you can modify the junk out of it and it will eventually have a version of the features of all the other cars....but it will never be a tree. There are limitations to what these human action (not action but like physical actions) games can be.
As the tech race advances, and tool boxes grow and grow, I think focus definitely drifts from what an early engine used to be. So everything wants zip lines, everything wants climbing, everything has unarmed and armed combat, and guns and so on. Identities are kind of lost in the midst of all the progress. The desire to make an engine the most ROBUST pack out moves the attention away from the now micro element that used to be the main attraction.

Growing an engine shouldn't be seen as negative if the now micro element still exists in a reasonable form. We may have to accept some compromises of course but I understand the desire to still have access to the methods you once were afforded in older versions.

I'm getting off track here. I do agree that scripted scenes shouldn't be overused, or overly repetitive in nature and it would be great if adaptive occurrences could be merged with game play. Like my stalker counter agent example. Yes, he could come into a scene where Sam is interrogating someone, and get the drop on him with another cut scene and then the player gets to start the game play after. But like you said, it would be much more fun from a 'player' perspective to have that Counter Agent stalking you during your game play and actually take advantage of YOUR lack of attention and allow for free playing of that scenario. I don't know what motivates the choice between the two. Perhaps it's the competition to make more movie like elements in games (blame MGS for starting that) or perhaps it's due to the ease of making a scene rather than trying to program AI to blend seamlessly in to your particular style without coming off as hokey. I don't know, that is the department of a different skill set.
But when talking about repetitive elements I remember the co-op actions from CT. Climbing up to a ledge for example was used over and over. You may say there was a choice in that but often it was a choice that you HAD to make to advance. So even though it occurred in free play mode, it was still a restrictive demand in some ways. There are probably better examples but I can't think of them right now.

I personally don't mind cut scenes. MG has too many and they are too long, but I would happily watch them as a stand alone movie. GRFS's are too frequent and appear to be the meat of the SP, but I am only half way through it so who knows.
The truck scene in SCB looks good to me, I don't mind the missile strike at all, but I really do favor Sam getting a variety of mission types over the course of the series. Ghosting through only to be interrupted by that truck regardless of Alert level may or may not work for me.

I am all for expanding SC's tool box, I would like for Sam to be able to climb walls and use zip lines and rappel, I want for the SC engine to be as expansive and excellent as the AC engine, but I DO feel that need for a closer proximity to reality too. Not dead on reality, that would suck.
Effectively developing those three play methods will be a challenge. AC kind of has to go a little lean on the stealth side but it at least has the benefit of Social Stealth to bolster it's stealth rating, Sam can't really have that on his more realistic kind of military insertion missions.

As far as ghost and Panther, yes, I know and agree that Panther/aggro stealth is not equatable to aggro action. Aggro stealth is still stealth at heart, it just leaves a body count. I find it to be the most realish in my mind regarding the premise of Splinter Cell and favor it for that. If Something did have to get less attention in the build I would probably choose full ghosting, as the action pillar is a realistic resort to detection, and aggro stealth still incorporates a high degree of stealth anyway. Ghosting is the most demanding or restrictive of the the three I think, in terms of the demand for story specifics, cut scene limitations and AI and event coding.
I'm not saying I am right, just what I think.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Panther seems more Navy SEAL, more SWAT, more something along those lines. You definitely can pseudo-panther in DA or CT even but it wasn't built around an aggro-stealth type of gameplay. The movements were still slow and precise, etc. But look...

I'm a hardcore fan. I love the concept of ghosting but even I don't believe that would always happen...in fact I believe it would rarely happen. I also feel that because of the nature of 3E or now 4E, they don't exist....they would not do what the SEALS do. Think about it. When the SEALS killed Osama....we were told immediately about it...they lost a copter, etc. If they had sent in someone like Sam, which I'm not saying they did, we'd never really know and the SEALS would have come in later.

But I'm digressing. I have always played the game, killing some, KOing some, and interrogating who I nedd to. Shooting lights to help, to lure, etc. I did it slowly, methodically, and would bypass enemies when I saw fit or an easier alternative. So what Beland is calling "ghosts" would include me yet I never really ghosted. Im fact...I didn't even know the term nor think of it before coming on the SCC forums and hearing the outraged fans talking about it. I still have not ghosted every mission but I have ghosted the CIA mission and the police HQ missions in the first game. Perhaps the Bank mission as well. But I have attained 100% in CT's missions, but not DA missions.

But...if you could theoretically ghost through about 98% of the game...the other 2% being forced combat/interrogations/situational story elements...then that would mean my playstyle would definitely be preserved. Even in the old games you couldn't ghost 100%...think about it...you're CAUGHT by the badguys in the FIRST game when you have Nikoladze and Grim has to do an artificial blackout to help you out. Then there's the firefight in Abattoir where you must kill Grinko, and I'm sure you could possibly ghost the enemies but I cannot fathom how...you pretty much were intended to fire and kill them confrontationally. Again, you get caught another time in the Pres. Palace going down the elevator...then the enemies all rush in to the room in order to get you. You can then avoid them and escape but they still know of your presence. This is pretty much typical of PT, CT, and DA.

However...in SCC. The first mission it is impossible to sneak up on Gramkos...he figures out you're there and runs to the bathroom.Then in Kobin's mansion, when you go down stairs at one point...these big blinding lights are revealed as doors open and enemies flood in looking for you. They're searching for FISHER!!! Then, even if you find a dumb way to get around them, and outside. You continue sneaking only to hear Kobin ready for you and you have to take out all his men before getting to him.

At the Airfield, after taking down the lights which you have to do, the enemies rush your position and know you're there. Then if you sneak to the next objective....floodlights come on and the enemies once again know you're there and you have to get to the end with the whole compound at full alert and actively searching for you.
Then the Iraq mission. enough said.
Then you have the carnival mission. After tlaking to Coste, the carnival is shut down and the enemies once again are shouting your name and know of your presence.
Then in White Box you have to go through that area where the lights come on as you pass through but even if you avoid detection, the enemies learn of your presence and swarm in. Later on, while downloading the info, the enemies swarm in and attack because they know you're there. After that fight, after you get to the point where you ask Vic about activating an EMP inside, the enemies come in and search for you, after killing the black guy with the EMP, again, more guards come in from outside to look for you.
In 3E, after I snuck through everythingin the garage, Sam idiotically talks to the desk lady and BLOWS CRAP UP thus effectively negating all the stealth I just did and making me feel punished. He then gets into the inner building after getting under the closing doors. Everyone is searching for him. After dealing with Kobin again, SCs drop down and fight you. Then after the Lambert revelation...again...they know youre there and the building is exploding. There's that turret guy in the reservoir, the part right before you save the scientist lady and not to mention the helicopter and I forgot what else. Then at the White House, after every objective...the nemies know of your presence no matter what you do. Do you see where there's a disconnect? In literally every mission of Conviction...they learn of your presence. It is essentially impossible to play the game like the old games without using mark and execute -- which isn't playing the game like the old games so the classic fans are in a lose-lose situation anyway,

[UbiZack]

@Andre
It's a fair point. If you never alert them to your presence, why would the truck be called at all. I see what you mean. Too early for me to argue that one, either it doesn't always happen or the player is forced into a situation where the enemy has to get alerted.
i don't mind nit getting to ghost every level, I think it's almost unfair to ask for that. I don't want to have forced action scenes every level either, but as always, I do recognize that they are telling a story. So I will remain open minded and se where it goes.
Really excited to play it. "Killing in motion" is a big deal, I wonder how stealthy we can be with that, like can we spring it when all guards are unaware and get to them and drop them without an alert being initiated.

Hey guys... if you listen to what the baddie says, Jadid is on the way... he needs protection. They're scattering to guard the perimeter.
They don't know about Sam's presence until he goes loud.

...by then it's too late for them.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

UbiZack...do we HAVE to go loud at that point or can we senak around? Do we also HAVE to use the UAV missile strike or opt not to? I heard Beland mention that about each mission has this but that it can range from a strike like that to shutting down the lights in an area....can we opt out of those if we choose to? It would make sense. If Sam is head of 4E and we take his role...we should get to decide which of those moments we choose, which we skip, etc. So is it possible? Or are you not allowed to tell us that? :l

[SolidSage]

Hey guys... if you listen to what the baddie says, Jadid is on the way... he needs protection. They're scattering to guard the perimeter.
They don't know about Sam's presence until he goes loud.

...by then it's too late for them.

I haven't watched closely enough. So the truck is scripting but is not in relation to being unstealthy. Sounds like it's just a high alert state of readiness then, and the player chooses how to respond to it.
I'm feeling pretty strongly that this ACTION approach in the demo is to toy with our emotions and set us up for a self facepalm. :)

@Bob
You're right about the SCC SP. Lots of scripted action elements. It IS a story about Sam being totally messed with and set up several times though. So while I know it deviates from legacy style, I think perhaps they built the story that way to accommodate the limitations they were faced with when sent after a rebuild.
Then the co-op got fewer but better maps and less restriction due to less story need, whereas Sam's tale needed a whole bunch of management to get it dialed back in. Maybe not fewer maps but the footprints were localized instead of stretched into tunnel like travel oriented maps.
I guess I am saying that they likely didn't have the time or resources to pursue the multiple approaches properly and HAD to get a lot of mileage out of a few elements. Buiding out the Ghost approach might have been too demanding for the story requirements and limited tool sets.

Anyway. THIS time we get to see what they could do with a more reasonable build cycle.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Exactly. I'm pissed at SCC SP but I gave it a break and haven't left the series because it did go through a rough development...however this one did not and if it feels the same and has all the same amount of forced action...I WILL be pissed and adequately so. If there are multiple paths to the same aggressive conclusion in every level and maybe sometimes at multiple points per mission....I will be mad.

[shobhit7777777]

Y'know...with Ghost Recon Future's release, 'Ghosting' through a mission would now imply silently executing everyone and vanishing in into thin air...Uber Aggro Stealth :p

[Andre202]

Hey guys... if you listen to what the baddie says, Jadid is on the way... he needs protection. They're scattering to guard the perimeter.
They don't know about Sam's presence until he goes loud.

...by then it's too late for them.

So if he wouldn't go out loud and would sneak through that truck, wouldn't they call for any company afterwards? It's understandable that they are all out to find the guy(s) who did this mess there (wehen Sam called for the airstrike), but what happens if you don't touch there anything. Do they come anyway and think something bad happened?

It's understandable to hear at the end of demo that there is company who is now looking for the guy(s) who killed all the guys you killed in the demo. How do they react if the backup for Jadid is stilll standing there though and don't notice that you are in the building interrogating the person who kills himself at the end?

@shobhit7777777 (http://forums.ubi.com/member.php/265993-shobhit7777777): Well, you know that's not Ghosting but as you said it's Aggro Stealth as it's meant to be used.




UbiZack...do we HAVE to go loud at that point or can we senak around? Do we also HAVE to use the UAV missile strike or opt not to? I heard Beland mention that about each mission has this but that it can range from a strike like that to shutting down the lights in an area....can we opt out of those if we choose to? It would make sense. If Sam is head of 4E and we take his role...we should get to decide which of those moments we choose, which we skip, etc. So is it possible? Or are you not allowed to tell us that? :l

You can decide if you do the airstrike or not, just as well if you want Grim to shut down the lights in the area or not. I do think you have to use the UAV missile strike though, since it seems (I don't say it's that way, but if it is) that the company will search for you whether you did go out loud or not. If we are able to decide and have an impact on the story so the backup for Jadid won't be in panic, it would be really cool.

Now I don't find the interview but it was at G4TV where he said that you can decide when it comes to order help from Grim.

Edit: Found it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkwRUqR6ykI

Wait, I just noticed that the guys are asking Maxime what we will see aside of NightVision Goggles. Maxime didn't deny that at all at 3:40. It seems NVGs are in. From there on you can also hear you can call for help but you don't need to (at least that's how I understood him).

[JaRuTo]

The first mission it is impossible to sneak up on Gramkos...he figures out you're there and runs to the bathroom.Then in Kobin's mansion, when you go down stairs at one point...these big blinding lights are revealed as doors open and enemies flood in looking for you. They're searching for FISHER!!! Then, even if you find a dumb way to get around them, and outside. You continue sneaking only to hear Kobin ready for you and you have to take out all his men before getting to him.
It's true. Even if you avoid them all, somehow Gramkos know you're coming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC_k_G5C5uM
The same in Kobin mansion and such situations shows that this is like a big script in which we have no influence at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mbOFVUGUNY

[Andre202]

@Andre
Your points are very good. I think there is danger in overusing a story tool, like the SCC interrogations, and too many cut scenes during game play can be detrimental. I was extreme with my definition of super ghosting but I wasn't saying that's what you wanted, just making an example of how that deep of a Ghost surely isn't possible.
I don't think that anybody does expect from Blacklist to have a deeper Ghost approach as apposed to SCCT for example. But it would be nice to feel more rewarding when doing so in Blacklist and don't always have the feeling that the Ghosting approach does somehow feel wrong. A big improvement over Conviction is realistic in my opinion but to expect such indepth is a bit over the top. I do see your point here.




Avoiding the "mass appeal" argument, which you are correct about not being a good excuse for everything, I think there may be an addictive quality in game development to race for new tech, and to outdo competitors in the movie like arena and even to progress game tools to compete with other franchise models. I don't know. I mean I AM seeing some similarities in the evolvement of SC tech to other games like AC and Batman and COD, etc.
In my opinion it's completely ok if they do get some inspirations of similar games or if they use ideas they have used in their own games. But I also think that something like CoD is not exactly something they should look for inspirations. There are several reason why which I may explain later on. It's not like that I completely hate CoD. I like CoD2 and CoD4 a lot, because I felt I was really involved there, but it felt more of a movie instead of a real game. I think the titles after Modern Warfare lost themselfs by going into a heavy movie direction. CoD is known for using a lot of scripts and whenever I see others using them too, I am sceptical about their use. The gaming industry is exploring the different approaches of telling a story. I don't think that the movie direction is the right one to go though, because it's actually the complete contradiction of what a game is supposed to be. People are playing games because they can do all the things, you can only SEE in the movie, themselfs. So it's ironical to go back to this movie direction and see the gamer only being able watch what they are doing instead of being able to do it themself.




I don't see it as copying, or trying to grab those audiences though. I think what we really have is Developers owning a code set that they want to push to the limit. They want to be innovative and incorporate as much as they can into their own source code or whatever it's called. So we see more and more variations of tools that are present in other games all the time. I don't think it's copying as much as inherent limitations to what CAN be done. Like with a car, your engine can only go so big, you can modify the junk out of it and it will eventually have a version of the features of all the other cars....but it will never be a tree. There are limitations to what these human action (not action but like physical actions) games can be.
I know what you are saying here, but I think they are just about to expand this in their new engine. With Conviction it was like building a car, but have only the basics of it. It was just build that way so it's able to be drived by the people, but it didn't have doors or anything else, just the things so it's able to drive. It was like a prototype. They said themselfs they had some problems to incorperate so much light sources with the old code. They couldn't use new code because it would take to long. Now I am confident that for the light sources for example they may have added deferred lighting which let them be able to use a lot more light sources. I think they had enough time now to build an actual engine for Splinter Cell and to expand the features it supported.




As the tech race advances, and tool boxes grow and grow, I think focus definitely drifts from what an early engine used to be. So everything wants zip lines, everything wants climbing, everything has unarmed and armed combat, and guns and so on. Identities are kind of lost in the midst of all the progress. The desire to make an engine the most ROBUST pack out moves the attention away from the now micro element that used to be the main attraction.
I know what you mean. I think they should add some special attention to these micro elements though because if you do just focus on the big things and other games begin to do the same, they all become more and more similar to each other. Through this micro elements people were able to identify their game immediately. Now if every game just focuses on the big things the consumers are getting confused and don't know which game they should buy since they begin to look similar to each other.
The thing is the developers even do have often the tools to do some very indepth features but they don't do it. Ubisoft especially has so much indepth code of different features it's just unbelieveable. They have the handle system, the complete Social Stealth code and they are often able due to their creativity to add these things which also focuses on micro elements to add to the engine. They are able to do some very robust packs with these micro elements included. They did that with Conviction too. It has the complete Social Stealth code included and it had at some time the whole Handle system incorperated into the engine. They decided not to use it though.




Growing an engine shouldn't be seen as negative if the now micro element still exists in a reasonable form. We may have to accept some compromises of course but I understand the desire to still have access to the methods you once were afforded in older versions.
I completely get your point here and I do agree we need to accept some compromises but if it's possible to do it otherwise they should try it and look up if the results are good.




I'm getting off track here. I do agree that scripted scenes shouldn't be overused, or overly repetitive in nature and it would be great if adaptive occurrences could be merged with game play. Like my stalker counter agent example. Yes, he could come into a scene where Sam is interrogating someone, and get the drop on him with another cut scene and then the player gets to start the game play after. But like you said, it would be much more fun from a 'player' perspective to have that Counter Agent stalking you during your game play and actually take advantage of YOUR lack of attention and allow for free playing of that scenario. I don't know what motivates the choice between the two. Perhaps it's the competition to make more movie like elements in games (blame MGS for starting that) or perhaps it's due to the ease of making a scene rather than trying to program AI to blend seamlessly in to your particular style without coming off as hokey. I don't know, that is the department of a different skill set.
In Canada in the game industry, Montreal being the Game Developer city of the whole world, they are more and more looking for Narrative Designers who take on these problems. I really like to use the Deus Ex Human Revolution example here. In Dev Diaries and other videos they really explained what is the exercise of such a designer. The thing was that the Narrative Designer in Deus Ex was the Lead Writer at the same time. Mary DeMarle would need to work a lot with the gameplay designers to be sure both things they wanted to support Combat and Stealth are completely supported. So they worked together to incorperate these sequences in a manner so the gamer can decide how he tackles the situation. In the second video you can hear which examples of scripts the devs meant and how they wanted to prevent them as much as possible. Like a conversation between NPCs she took as an example where you can abort their conversation through combat or hear what they are saying to get more information or whatever through waiting. It's a part of the story. They don't like to add a script that lets the NPCs all wait in front of the door expecting you already which was in the Conviction the case and in Blacklist too. If you didn't alarm them previously, they won't wait for you there magically.

They are looking at ways to tell the story without making the game into a movie. That's where I think the gaming industry needs to evolve itself instead of looking at the movie industry to look how they do tell a story. If you look at movies they are much much more successful as compared to games because the gaming industry is still very young and not accepted by everyone as opposed to movie industry that nearly everyone is watching. Now which game is the most successful game in the game industry? Call of Duty. And how? Through making the Singleplayer experience as similar to a movie. That's why they are at a level of selling so much as the movie industry does sell their movies. I think it's very good that some developers now are really risking of going the gaming industries of way of telling the story instead of making it similar to the movie industries. We need to differentiate those both things and shouldn't try to combine them because it will damage the gaming industry in the end. We see that more and more the press is supporting such an approach of the developers who are going the gaming industry way and more and more they are searching for these narrative designers to get back to making games instead of movies.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hmOhaB2y8o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idO0zj67sbc




But when talking about repetitive elements I remember the co-op actions from CT. Climbing up to a ledge for example was used over and over. You may say there was a choice in that but often it was a choice that you HAD to make to advance. So even though it occurred in free play mode, it was still a restrictive demand in some ways. There are probably better examples but I can't think of them right now.
I think Coop is being a complete different issue here because just having a second player does iliminate the freedom you have when you are playing alone. So it's understandable if developers are encouraging the players to work together. I hear a lot often that people are looking for Stealth gamers to play together in Conviction because they always end up with guys who are running and gunning. That's also repetetive for the second player who doesn't want to play this way. So he needs to find someone who has a similar idea of how they would approach the mission. Besides I saw these Coop moves not only as innovative features but also as some kind of a checkpoint that made sure you both don't lose track of each other. Conviction made the same thing and in Coop it just makes a lot of sense, they just don't want you do go alone there because that's not the purpose the Coop mode has to serve. But I do get your point here and just wanted to point out another perspective on this issue. Since they write down variation very big in the Blacklist team they may have a lot more Coop moves as to SCCT so it doesn't get repetetive to use the same move so often.




I personally don't mind cut scenes. MG has too many and they are too long, but I would happily watch them as a stand alone movie. GRFS's are too frequent and appear to be the meat of the SP, but I am only half way through it so who knows.
I don't mind them too, but they should be made carefully. The philosophy the Deus Ex team had of Adam Jensen seems to be the same the Blacklist team has. They should be both able to tackle the situation the way they want (the player). That's why a lot of people love Adam Jensen, because through having the ability to decide yourself what you are doing in those situations you build a much more stronger bond to the character. The more control you have over your character, the more you feel being him. Previous Splinter Cell games did that too and that's why a lot of people feel very strong when the character gets changed so drastically. I can completely understand the reactions here coming in this regard.

I got to much off your topic... You know, MGS's trademark is having these very long cutscenes. I cannot judge it because I never played it but I don't think it should lose on those things the fans get to know of the MGS series. I think cutscenes can round up the story very well if they are implemented in a reasonable way. They need to hit the balance there though, which is why I said that you need to be careful about these things.




The truck scene in SCB looks good to me, I don't mind the missile strike at all, but I really do favor Sam getting a variety of mission types over the course of the series. Ghosting through only to be interrupted by that truck regardless of Alert level may or may not work for me.
Well you can choose to order the air strike on the truck or not. I think I see a way of sneaking and pass all them. I also thought more of the things which were going on afterwards too. It's understandable the guards are waiting for you in front of the door when you do the air strike. But what happens if you don't do it?




I am all for expanding SC's tool box, I would like for Sam to be able to climb walls and use zip lines and rappel, I want for the SC engine to be as expansive and excellent as the AC engine, but I DO feel that need for a closer proximity to reality too. Not dead on reality, that would suck.
Both things are in. ;)




Effectively developing those three play methods will be a challenge. AC kind of has to go a little lean on the stealth side but it at least has the benefit of Social Stealth to bolster it's stealth rating, Sam can't really have that on his more realistic kind of military insertion missions.
Yeah it's a challenge. I don't think it's easy to pull it of too but there are some very good games to take inspiration of when it comes to develop for these three play methods. I would again mention here Deus Ex. Not sure if you played that game.



@JaRuTo (http://forums.ubi.com/member.php/995593-JaRuTo): They knew of you because Grim told them Sam was coming. In the Demo of Blacklist, they don't know you are coming. When Sam was going out loud, they knew it. Now the question is, what would have happened if you would have sneaked through them?

[sameer_monier]

@Andre: you are talking about the last scene that we didn't see right ?!.

BTW Epic wall of Text, and really thoughtful, I read pieces of it, but over all I agree with what I read, especially DE:HR when it comes to Story telling, it is pure amazing.

[Andre202]

You can hear in the demo what is happening at the end. It is understandable because Sam was going out loud. But what would have happended if you didn't call in airstrikes and got to the last person in the demo without killing the others at the truck?

[sameer_monier]

You can hear in the demo what is happening at the end. It is understandable because Sam was going out loud. But what would have happended if you didn't call in airstrikes and got to the last person in the demo without killing the others at the truck?


Edit: I just watched it, it seems I missed it, but Now I see what you mean, and I believe you got a very big Question for us.

Maybe they will come just as reenforcement (like more Back up to the truck guards) without knowing you were there if you stealth-ed your way around ?!

[mudsak]

I long to play DA for the original Xbox....anyone know if the ORIGINAL XBOX version of Double Agent runs on the 360? I know I'd need a harddrive which I have so yeah. Just wanna make sure. /off topic

Yes, the original xbox version of DA works on the 360.... and it's an awesome game. It's MUCH better than the 360 version, and plays very similar to Chaos Theory. Good stuff.

[Andre202]

Edit: I just watched it, it seems I missed it, but Now I see what you mean, and I believe you got a very big Question for us.

Maybe they will come just as reenforcement (like more Back up to the truck guards) without knowing you were there if you stealth-ed your way around ?!

That's exactly what I am hoping for. But there is no answer to that.

And as said multiple times, it's something that affects the whole game and your playstyle. According to Beland every mission will have something similar, so yeah I would like to know that for sure.

[mateus99]

That's exactly what I am hoping for. But there is no answer to that.

And as said multiple times, it's something that affects the whole game and your playstyle. According to Beland every mission will have something similar, so yeah I would like to know that for sure.

I hope so too,so that every playstyle would have different outcomes on the situation you are in.That will surely make the game better for us (hardcore fans) and increasing replayability

[Fraeulein]

Dang. Looks like I missed a bunch of stuff.



Well even I don't ghost all the time, but I like the option.

And I hope so! I think it will depend a lot on the level design. The options in SCC allowed players to sneak, certainly, but the mini-sandbox maps we saw in D-Ops, especially the DLC maps which are AWESOME, were just so much more fun to sneak around. Plus, it felt like a much higher percentage of the enemies could at least be flanked for stealthy grabs without much fuss.

This. It is also great, after you have played the heck out of the game and are making up your own person achievements.

[sameer_monier]

dang. Looks like i missed a bunch of stuff.




This. It is also great, after you have played the heck out of the game and are making up your own person achievements.

welcome baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack ;)

[mateus99]

Dang. Looks like I missed a bunch of stuff.




This. It is also great, after you have played the heck out of the game and are making up your own person achievements.

Hey Fraeulein long time no see.
What is your impressions on the game so far?

[KenTWOu]

I agree with Andre. Also thinks that scripted events could be very dangerous and game breaking especially for ghost players and I'm definitely one of them.

Also I want to talk about cut-scenes. Here is a quote from one of the interviews (http://wildgunmen.com/blog/2010/05/22/splinter-cell-conviction-post-mortem-part-1/) with Maxime Beland.

When I was on Assassins Creed – I was on Assassin’s Creed for the last year of the project. At one point we were doing playtests. There was this gamer that I was looking at, he was totally in the game. He was against the second target you had to assassinate. He was on the tip of his chair, he was super immersed, leaned forward and then he died, and wiped his hands, he was sweating, totally immersed in the game. Then he finally killed the target and the scripted event started the white room, I don’t know if you played Assassin’s Creed, but there’s this white room moment where Altair will talk to the target. For us on Assassin’s Creed, we put a lot of effort into that moment, you know, it was your pay off after the kill and it was moving the story forward. And that guys reaction just went… he backed off, he removed his earphones he took a sip of his coke and he started looking around – and that pissed me off, you know? Because I was like ****, we did something wrong. We had that guy, he was super immersed in the game and now he’s out.

So my theory, and that’s what I wanted to try out in Conviction, was that the player went from interacting to being passive. He went from active to passive. My idea was that, we did a switch. Because we did a switch, that’s when his brain went, ‘hey you’re thirsty,’ ‘hey you’re playing a game,’ so he got disconnected from his experience. So, in Conviction what I wanted to do was to try to never disconnect the player. I wanted the player to feel like he was always in control, always interacting with the game. So we made a lot of effort not to have any camera cuts. So even when you go into a scripted event, the camera’s always following Sam and we don’t cut and put black bars to tell you this is a cinematic. Also, always allowing the player to control the camera or control Sam.

That was one of the things we wanted to do and then, because we were doing that it caused some issues storytelling wise. Sometimes Sam is in a house, but we want to talk about what’s happening at the White House. So how do we do that? So that’s how the idea of projected text came along. We could leave the player there in control of the camera, but project on the environment what’s happening elsewhere. So, the projected movies, the projected text all that came from that.
So it's obvious that Blacklist E3 demo has several camera cuts. For example, when Sam gets to the second part of the level, he jumps over the fence and later when that infamous jeep has arrived. I think that these camera cuts simply breaks the immersion. Well, may be the first one also hides level loading, but the second one with the jeep... I don't know, I thinks it's possible to make it less intrusive and still very informative. Anyway, this isn't game breaking feature for me as opposed to scripted events.

[Andre202]

At 4:50 in this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2UWLlpWslw) video you hear Grim saying that Jadid has reinforcements. The question would be here again, if she would still say this if we wouldn't have called the airstrike. Also as KenTWOu (http://forums.ubi.com/member.php/323666-KenTWOu) said. Whenever you have these cutscenes coming it disconnects you from the game, because you always want to be in control when playing through the mission. Even in Conviction we didn't have any of these sequences in the middle of the mission to make sure you are always immersed in the game.

[Om4zd]

@Andre202 I agree man. Those cutscenes seem bad and pointless. It would be much more dynamic if you had control while the jeep came up and the soldiers started climbing out. Then you had the freedom to get to a different vantage point. I wonder what would have happened if the person playing hadn't done anything when the people came out the jeep... Would they have searched the village and you had a chance to take them out one by one? Or maybe a different scenario would've occurred?

[sameer_monier]

I agree with Andre. Also thinks that scripted events could be very dangerous and game breaking especially for ghost players and I'm definitely one of them.

Also I want to talk about cut-scenes. Here is a quote from one of the interviews (http://wildgunmen.com/blog/2010/05/22/splinter-cell-conviction-post-mortem-part-1/) with Maxime Beland.

So it's obvious that Blacklist E3 demo has several camera cuts. For example, when Sam gets to the second part of the level, he jumps over the fence and later when that infamous jeep has arrived. I think that these camera cuts simply breaks the immersion. Well, may be the first one also hides level loading, but the second one with the jeep... I don't know, I thinks it's possible to make it less intrusive and still very informative. Anyway, this isn't game breaking feature for me as opposed to scripted events.
Very good read, brings back memories, a similar situation to the truck was in SCC when we were at the memorial, and Reed sent 3rdE agents after us, you heard the sound of the cars parking and there was a projected text, but it didn't shift into a cutscene at all, it was cool, made me want to hurry up to a hiding place while wondering where they may come from.

[Andre202]

Seems like more and more people do understand what I am really concerned about. :D

[sameer_monier]

Seems like more and more people do understand what I am really concerned about. :D
How can we disagree ?!, After all your reply are too da** informative and deep, makes your point shine in the darkness of the Night (not very good for stealth though) haha :D

[Fraeulein]

Hey Fraeulein long time no see.
What is your impressions on the game so far?
I like what I see so far. I forgot which trailer it was, but I was kind of blown away by the graphics and the "jingle truck"" Capturing details of a "jingle truck" must be time consuming. Lol. I have some issues with Sam not looking his age anymore. But that isn't going to make me start a dozen threads complaining about it and it's not a deal breaker. I would be more interested to see the SP deniable ops kind of thing. What kinds of extras and goodies are we going to see/get ?
i

[Jazz117Volkov]

@ Fraulein
Hey, welcome back!
Now that you mention it... I have no idea about the D-Ops and such, but word has it that it's back and bigger/better then ever.
With 4th Echelon and the new economy system, I imagine the COOP/D-Ops will revolve around Fisher's recruits. I hope there's more then just one or two, or at least let us build our own agents. Actually, that would be really cool, to roam around the plane and interact with your customized agents... have a slight RPG thing about it.
Would be cool to see A&K come back though. I know it wouldn't make sense with them being dead and all, but it'd still be cool to see them again.

Makes me curious to see who the Mercs will be in SvM.
Someone pointed out that Shadownet is written on one of the screens in the Paladin (I think that's the plane's name?)
So perhaps the classic SvM groups will return.

And well, Sam... yeah, he's looking a little different.
I'm approaching this one like Craig's 007, I.E. rebirth.

[Andre202]

So the cutscene would need to be in realtime while playing the game to make sure you won't get disconnected of the game. Sounds good.
For the second, try to apply DE:HR's narrative design on Blacklist for maximum player control!

[JaRuTo]

@JaRuTo (http://forums.ubi.com/member.php/995593-JaRuTo): They knew of you because Grim told them Sam was coming. In the Demo of Blacklist, they don't know you are coming. When Sam was going out loud, they knew it. Now the question is, what would have happened if you would have sneaked through them?
You are right ; )


You can hear in the demo what is happening at the end. It is understandable because Sam was going out loud. But what would have happended if you didn't call in airstrikes and got to the last person in the demo without killing the others at the truck?
If there are no invisible walls or the stupid things like lost connection from GRFS - yuck! it will be avoid them all. I could get around this square because I saw at the end enough space to get from the back - not necessarily moving from inside the building.

[Andre202]

Well you can avoid the truck. Not sure if you can avoid the drone at the end though. The games using thise were all Third-Person-Shooters. I am not sure why the devs would implement something like this.

[bluewolf042000]

Hey guys... if you listen to what the baddie says, Jadid is on the way... he needs protection. They're scattering to guard the perimeter.
They don't know about Sam's presence until he goes loud.

...by then it's too late for them.

Exactly. Everyone stupidly assumes they're looking for you. Also, if they look "jittery" it just MIGHT be because they're in an active battlefield, hence the grunt in the machine gun earlier.

[Andre202]

Exactly. Everyone stupidly assumes they're looking for you. Also, if they look "jittery" its just MIGHT be because they're in an active battlefield, hence the grunt in the machine gun earlier.
That's already cleared. The people mean something different. You can avoid the truck but what happens afterwards if you avoid them? How does the game react to your playstyle?

[SolidSage]

I like what I see so far. I forgot which trailer it was, but I was kind of blown away by the graphics and the "jingle truck"" Capturing details of a "jingle truck" must be time consuming. Lol. I have some issues with Sam not looking his age anymore. But that isn't going to make me start a dozen threads complaining about it and it's not a deal breaker. I would be more interested to see the SP deniable ops kind of thing. What kinds of extras and goodies are we going to see/get ?
i

Patrick told me personally that co-op was going to be so much larger. I assumed that included the modes but who knows. I doubt they would move away from the things that were universally a success with the fan base though.
I'm with you on Sam's look and age, it's noticeable of course but it's not going to make my game play suffer (looking so good and being so BA :)), so it's not anywhere close to the top of any list of gripes for me.

The Turret Truck: Heard good things about this and ghosting.

The HQ picture: Get this, Max said he read the posts about the "Angel Fire DLC" and was like, "shiz, now we have to make that!!!" I think he was pointing out that a lot of the imagery is generated to show the concept and feel of the game, like there are placeholders for text and pics etc (my wife has to do this with web sites, just put any phrase into a location that WILL be available for text). So I don't know that we need to over analyze a lot of what has been seen in that pic just yet.

[Andre202]

Patrick told me personally that co-op was going to be so much larger. I assumed that included the modes but who knows. I doubt they would move away from the things that were universally a success with the fan base though.
I think they had actually planned to have a very big Coop in Conviction. The DLC Trailer does give some hints that the maps were originally also a part of the Coop Campaign. Would have liked to the results, but the time wasn't there. But I do not think we can expect Voron to come back again. So I assume the Coop will be played by members of the Fourth Echelon only since Voron doesn't know of that agency and so they won't be able to work together. I actually liked that they had a russian counter part. It was refresh compared to other games who see the russians just as the bad guys and Kestrel was a very good Coop character in my opinion. But because of the HUB and Fourth Echelon being a secret, I see the Coop being played by Sam and Vic or Vic and Isaac.
Really would have liked to see Voron back though.




I'm with you on Sam's look and age, it's noticeable of course but it's not going to make my game play suffer (looking so good and being so BA :)), so it's not anywhere close to the top of any list of gripes for me.
It isn't a deal braker for me too, but I hope they will improve his face to look more similar to previous titles. For example, they did a very good job on Grim finding the middle way between CT and C. She looks a lot better now.

[SolidSage]

I think they had actually planned to have a very big Coop in Conviction. The DLC Trailer does give some hints that the maps were originally also a part of the Coop Campaign. Would have liked to the results, but the time wasn't there. But I do not think we can expect Voron to come back again. So I assume the Coop will be played by members of the Fourth Echelon only since Voron doesn't know of that agency and so they won't be able to work together. I actually liked that they had a russian counter part. It was refresh compared to other games who see the russians just as the bad guys and Kestrel was a very good Coop character in my opinion. But because of the HUB and Fourth Echelon being a secret, I see the Coop being played by Sam and Vic or Vic and Isaac.
Really would have liked to see Voron back though.

Me too. Max talked about Sam hand picking a team though, so who knows where the members come from?





It isn't a deal braker for me too, but I hope they will improve his face to look more similar to previous titles. For example, they did a very good job on Grim finding the middle way between CT and C. She looks a lot better now.

I guess they have to mold it closer to Eric's now due to the Mo-cap.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Didn't some pic have "MI6" on it?

What if the co-op is a new member of 4E and MI6? I can't see the co-op being Sam and someone else...I would always fight to be Sam haha and I'm sure lots of others would too. idk...it seems more likely that it'll be different characters and that Sam will act as a Lambert type to them. Who knows.

[SolidSage]

Didn't some pic have "MI6" on it?

What if the co-op is a new member of 4E and MI6? I can't see the co-op being Sam and someone else...I would always fight to be Sam haha and I'm sure lots of others would too. idk...it seems more likely that it'll be different characters and that Sam will act as a Lambert type to them. Who knows.

Patrick Redding! :D

[sameer_monier]

@Andre & KenTWOu : regarding the cutscenes, it seems we asked for it, I recall in my ideas threads some members showed interest of the return of cutscenes, I looked, and I found that I added that idea, so I believe the developers are mixing it up with SCC presentation style (Sam walking into Camp, OPSAT screens forming behind Sam in the ending scene) & Cutscene (like Sam jumping down, truck scene, and the ending scene).

But still the point stand, I hope there is a way to avoid the whole Action Sequence in the end, if not, at least let it be the one and only time that it will happen.


Also according to this interview which was posted by another member, but I can't find his post Link (http://www.gamertalk.tv/?p=2309) we will have Dogs back :D
and I love that, they were really a pain in the a$$ back in SAR & PT

"-Guard dogs. If the pup grabs your arm mash the X button to put him down. [the camera will move behind Sam to hide the dog getting killed]"

"-Players can whistle or call enemies to lure them away from the group and into a trap. This can be done with the controller and the Kinect voice command"

it also confirmed the drone :(

"-Predator drone (similar to Call of Duty’s AC -130). Gun down enemies and blow up gun turrets from the skies using a thermal camera, machine gun, and missiles."


oh another thing that is saddening me, on Ubisoft channel, ACIII Demo got around 2 millions view, while SCB 600K, I feel like the marketing is way low, ACIII was on gameinformer, had a teaser, had a gameplay trailer that required 1million, I hope SCB gets some deserved marketing.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Assassins Creed is their biggest franchise I believe. It bet it will outsell Blacklist, Future Soldier, Patriots, Watch Dogs, and be up in the air with Just Dance 4 -- although I'm not sure how well Just Dance sold in comparison to the AC series but seeing as it's a game that even parents like to play I wouldn't be surprised that it sells ridiculously well.

I love Assassins Creed and III is a definite buy for me but I think I still need to see a bit more of Blacklist though if what they all say is true -- then I will more than likely buy this...and preorder it for the bonus mission...even if the bonus mission gets released later. I, unlike many, like the idea of preorder bonuses coming to the public later. I mean...you're paying for the preorder and as incentive to get it, they give you extra. I've been paying for early access ...not exclusivity. So I wont mind if people can later on, share in the fun of the bonus mission or the goggles or whatever. If the sonar appears gold instead of the blueish white they've been showing....I will not be using it -- if the oggles themselves are gold....I will not be using it. hahaIf the armor looks too bulky or too futuristic...wont be using that either. hopefully the bonus mission will be a good stealth mission.

[SolidSage]

Here are the Ubisoft games I want to purchase this year because of how much fun they looked;

SplinterCell: Blacklist (SCB) - OF COURSE.:cool:

Assassin's Creed 3 (AC3/Creed) - No doubt.:D

WatchDogs (WD) - Duh! :o

Just Dance 4 (JD4) - Talk about exercise! I'm in....helps that I actually do have rhythm, some skillz and a small dance troop in my living room!.:o

Far Cry 3 (FC3) - Making First person Shooters look fun again. Might not last if my equilibrium issue with FPS's rears it's ugly head.:confused:

Rayman Legends (er, RL) - Cartoon platformer fun for the whole family, and easy for friends to drop in and have a blast with.:D And what's with the music synchronization gameplay? Liking that!



Want to Play.

ZombiU - Looks great and fun to play.


And here's one non Ubisoft winner, IMO;

Deadlight - Gorgeous looking old school platformer, set during a ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE!!! Coming to XBLA in July/August 2012 from Tequila Works. Easy to get in to, nice controls and very satisfying. Supposed to offer approximately 6 hours of gameplay.
check it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUlKEH8Kc3c

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

What about Watch Dogs? I want Blacklist (still a bit iffy but from what it sounds like...I'll probably buy), ACIII, and WATCH DOGS. HELLOOOOOOO?!?!?!?

That game looks amazing. Plus a slight social stealth element which is awesome.

[SolidSage]

@VertCell
Oh I'm getting Last Of Us. Been all over that since first reveals.
I didn't get time with Last Of Us or The Last guardian when I was at the Sony booth.

@Bob
YOU RIGHT! How'd I forget that one??? Too much awesome in the pipeline. :)

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I think they tell you to... -- or in the final game it'll tell you to and if you don't they may give you an alternative without the advantage of surprise or they'll fail you out of the mission yknow? I'm sure you'll be able to cause massive mayhem whenever you want and screw with the lights. I'm sure it's something you can do whenever.

[Andre202]

@Andre & KenTWOu : regarding the cutscenes, it seems we asked for it, I recall in my ideas threads some members showed interest of the return of cutscenes, I looked, and I found that I added that idea, so I believe the developers are mixing it up with SCC presentation style (Sam walking into Camp, OPSAT screens forming behind Sam in the ending scene) & Cutscene (like Sam jumping down, truck scene, and the ending scene).
You know but they really could make the truck scene more in the game playing it in realtime while you are still in control of your character. They did it in Conviction too. Like for example in Whitebox at the end when reinforcement is coming and the gate is opening. Everything happening while playing is a really good thing they did in Conviction. In Blacklist in the demo that had a bit to much scenes, just thought to point it out because it does abort the gameplay very often there.


But still the point stand, I hope there is a way to avoid the whole Action Sequence in the end, if not, at least let it be the one and only time that it will happen.
We will see how and if they will change it, I am really not sure what to think about these predator drone scene.




"-Guard dogs. If the pup grabs your arm mash the X button to put him down. [the camera will move behind Sam to hide the dog getting killed]"

"-Players can whistle or call enemies to lure them away from the group and into a trap. This can be done with the controller and the Kinect voice command"
Well both very good things!




oh another thing that is saddening me, on Ubisoft channel, ACIII Demo got around 2 millions view, while SCB 600K, I feel like the marketing is way low, ACIII was on gameinformer, had a teaser, had a gameplay trailer that required 1million, I hope SCB gets some deserved marketing.
No surprise there AC is coming out this year. If you compare the views though, Watch Dogs has more then 4 million views. ;)
For a Splinter Cell title I think 600 thousand views is pretty much okay.

[shobhit7777777]

Dogs? DOGS? ****ING DOGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????!?!!

are back?

I don't know whether to strip my clothes and dance in joy or fume in silent rage...as the Dogs were my most feared enemies in SC1

And you can be **** sure I won't shoot any pups...thanks for putting me in that predicament Ubi *angry face*

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I always shoot the dogs lol

[Jazz117Volkov]

Didn't some pic have "MI6" on it?

What if the co-op is a new member of 4E and MI6? I can't see the co-op being Sam and someone else...I would always fight to be Sam haha and I'm sure lots of others would too. idk...it seems more likely that it'll be different characters and that Sam will act as a Lambert type to them. Who knows.Haha, yeah... everyone would want to be Sam.
Though, I hope we can play as Sam in D-Ops (single player)

As for COOP.
Oddly enough (I'm not usually into this) but I'd love a create a character thing.
Think of it like this. We are technically Sam Fisher, right? So we should recruit the agents 'we' (Sam Fisher) think would be good, I.E. make our ideal agent.
Playing COOP would then be like playing as your alter ego.
A little RPGish, no?

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

That would actually be pretty cool. I mean at LEAST for Deniable Ops....you could choose to play as Sam (when in single player D-Ops), one of the co-op agents, or design your own character? I hihgly doubt it'll be in there and the most we'll get to customize will probably be the gear we have *shrug*

I just hope we can get to use camo that actually SUITS the environment. I remember in SCC we had access to so many different types of USELESS camo. I hope there's desert camo, jungle camo (and that theres a jungle mission), etc. That'd be so cool. haha

[sameer_monier]

You know but they really could make the truck scene more in the game playing it in realtime while you are still in control of your character. They did it in Conviction too. Like for example in Whitebox at the end when reinforcement is coming and the gate is opening. Everything happening while playing is a really good thing they did in Conviction. In Blacklist in the demo that had a bit to much scenes, just thought to point it out because it does abort the gameplay very often there.
well I totally agree, in real time is way better, puts more pressure on you, I remember playing Resistance 3, and I was going to a safe position, but sadly a monster appear, a cutscene, and I am teleported in front of the boss, I hated that, I actually got hit due to that. ((but Resistance 3 is an amazing game :D))



No surprise there AC is coming out this year. If you compare the views though, Watch Dogs has more then 4 million views. ;)
For a Splinter Cell title I think 600 thousand views is pretty much okay.
maybe you are right, I just expected more, like at least one million view


Dogs? DOGS? ****ING DOGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????!?!!

are back?

I don't know whether to strip my clothes and dance in joy or fume in silent rage...as the Dogs were my most feared enemies in SC1

And you can be **** sure I won't shoot any pups...thanks for putting me in that predicament Ubi *angry face*
LOL you and me :D, I don't recall that I found a way around the dogs in SAR.

[reddragonhrcro]

Haha, yeah... everyone would want to be Sam.
Though, I hope we can play as Sam in D-Ops (single player)

As for COOP.
Oddly enough (I'm not usually into this) but I'd love a create a character thing.
Think of it like this. We are technically Sam Fisher, right? So we should recruit the agents 'we' (Sam Fisher) think would be good, I.E. make our ideal agent.
Playing COOP would then be like playing as your alter ego.
A little RPGish, no?

Agree on that,been saying that idea for MP in general aswell in the SvM thread.Imagine you make Solid Snake LOL,Sam and Snake teamup XD

[SolidSage]

Haha, yeah... everyone would want to be Sam.
Though, I hope we can play as Sam in D-Ops (single player)

Ain't that the truth, I've been complaining about Sam not being available for co-op or deniable ops since the early days of Conviction. But I think we all agreed back then even that it would be really hard to make that work, EVERYONE would want to be Sam. Anyone remember all the drop outs because most players wanted to be Kestrel? It would be like that times a 1000.:)


As for COOP.
Oddly enough (I'm not usually into this) but I'd love a create a character thing.
Think of it like this. We are technically Sam Fisher, right? So we should recruit the agents 'we' (Sam Fisher) think would be good, I.E. make our ideal agent.
Playing COOP would then be like playing as your alter ego.
A little RPGish, no?

I like character creation but not TOO in depth. Outfits with customization, name editor and maybe some sort of progression.I don't know that stat adjustment or face modelling really belongs in SC. A nice variety of facemasks and other gear would probably be enough.
Not saying I wouldn't take faces and coloring and body art options, along with full statistic customization etc, but it isn't something I think SC 'needs'.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Pink Tactical Suit anyone?

You know you'd do it at least once. haha

I hope we can customize a lot more though. And for guns...we better be able to take off attachments!

[EmmaJordan]

Pink Tactical Suit anyone?

You know you'd do it at least once. haha

I hope we can customize a lot more though. And for guns...we better be able to take off attachments!

Hell yes. MAKE. IT. HAPPEN. NOW.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I can see it now: going into co-op...guy in pink outfit running through the map throwing frags EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I. PLAY. ON. LIVE. hahahahahaha

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Ooooohhhh...I wonder if they could implement a way for the game to realize what style you play more -- either ghost, panther, or gunner...and then pair you up with someone who plays the same. that way the ghost fans get with ghost fans, panther with panther, assault with assault. OMG. THAT would be cool. I don't even go on XBL often to play co-op but for those that do...that'd be great right? Panther and assault fans won't be slowed down by a ghost and a ghost won't be immediately dpressed when their "partner" goes running off and kills people -- loudly.

[EmmaJordan]

Ooooohhhh...I wonder if they could implement a way for the game to realize what style you play more -- either ghost, panther, or gunner...and then pair you up with someone who plays the same. that way the ghost fans get with ghost fans, panther with panther, assault with assault. OMG. THAT would be cool. I don't even go on XBL often to play co-op but for those that do...that'd be great right? Panther and assault fans won't be slowed down by a ghost and a ghost won't be immediately dpressed when their "partner" goes running off and kills people -- loudly.

Totally.

My biggest problem with co-op in Conviction was that I was often paired with some idiot who wanted to sprint through the whole map in open gun fights.... made co-op on line ridiculous.

[sameer_monier]

Totally.

My biggest problem with co-op in Conviction was that I was often paired with some idiot who wanted to sprint through the whole map in open gun fights.... made co-op on line ridiculous.
I am pretty sure you can find some dedicated fans here to go with you through it really stealthy, I believe some even still play Co-Op from time to time, and IMO since you are here early on, you will get to know us better, and know who to play with, instead of going with a new fan.

[SolidSage]

I agree - Those things aren't really applicable for a SC game. Certainly not as far as body build/size.. Then you'd start messing with the animations. But that's beside the fact.

There is something cool about playing AS yourself. I think of Fight Night Round 4, specifically. It has a cool tool where you can upload a picture, or use your webcam to snap a photo of yourself, and then in-game, move the facial markers like eyes, nostrils, mouth corners, ear holes, tip of nose, etc etc.... And the game would create a very accurate model of yourself to use as your career boxer. I LOVED that.

I'm not saying I want Splinter Cell to be like that, because it's pretty useless for a game like this. We'd never really see the face anyway, being a third person game.

I'm COMPLETELY happy with customizing clothing. Everything from gloves, boots, hats, shirts, armour, and the COLOUR of all those pieces. (I'd probably go with black on everything). Perhaps even face paint, like R6V.

I liked the Vegas Face Capture feature but cameras were so junk back then I couldn't get it to work well. Some people had REALLY good ones. (Was it Vegas or one before? Too many games yo)
Face paint was cool, along with outfit color choices, it was just cool to give yourself more of an identity.

@Emma Jordan
You hit the nail on the head there. Lots of negative feelings come from that exact fact, other players not doing it how you want to. Then not being able to continue when the other joker decides to throw a wobbler and quit out because you didn't rush over and revive him when he got dusted for that same running around. I've had it happen a lot, partner goes down, I start towards him, stealthy like so as to be successful, HE is SUPER IMPATIENT, sits up immediately and tries to duke it out with 5 guards while he's sitting down in the open with a pistol. :confused: BOOM, he dies, I'm fine, GAME OVER. :mad:So NOT cool.
I'm always up for a bit of stealthy SCC though, if you want to do it right.

[Jazz117Volkov]

@ Sage/Vert
Well I'm just tossing the idea out there. How you guys catch it is up to you.

Though, Bob's pink tactical suit would be the source of some substantial humor.
Reminds me a little of MGS4, where you could save your camo.
I still got the blue carpet camo saved--Snake roams around looking like a Middle-Eastern rug, lol ...not so great for the camo index

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I'd rock the pink. I think Zack would like that too based on Sage's "Goggle" announcement. Can someone leak some info or can Zack give us a demo stealthrough now? I'm getting so impatient. I hope you get access to Sam's other, older outfits for D-Ops or even in the story. I think it'd be great if he donned the first outfit from the first game in one mission. (x

[michaelanjello]

All the devs keep saying you can play the levels in Stealth or in Mercenary. What if you could deploy on every mission at any point in the day? Maybe you get to choose when to do the mission and this will influence on the darkness of the level and other factors?

[SolidSage]

@Jazz
I was getting a lot more fun out of Solid's camo this last time through. There were some cool ones. I've always been partial to the Tiger Stripe. Dig the mask.
GRFS has Brazilian Urban camo for some guns, I'm liking it.

I didn't really enoy the design your own camo on R6V?2? But that's because I wasn't good at it. I made a nice chocolate-mud one there for a minute:D I was an early adopter of total camo matching the environment in MP, it made a difference. Although there were always those types that could run around in lazer pink and dust everybody. Good times.

[shobhit7777777]

@Jazz
I was getting a lot more fun out of Solid's camo this last time through. There were some cool ones. I've always been partial to the Tiger Stripe. Dig the mask.
GRFS has Brazilian Urban camo for some guns, I'm liking it.
.

"Tiger Stripe Camo is for winners"- Trippy the Buff Tiger

[SolidSage]

"Tiger Stripe Camo is for winners"- Trippy the Buff Tiger

Trippy's 2nd sighting everyone. I saw him I saw him.

[Andre202]

That's why we'll have a matchmaking thread on here, eventually.

I find the Ubisoft servers so lame, with SCC. I can't remember the last time I ended an online game because I wanted to. The server has almost always cut me short. It ticks me off. Do NOT tell me it's my connection - Trust me, it is not.

The game should keep track of how we play, and get a tally of things like how many NPCs we killed, and KO'd. From there, it can draw conclusions as to how we like to play. Or, there could just be a check-box at the quick match screen to let us specify how we want to play - That way our actual gameplay doesn't affect the match. If I stealth through the entire game, it doesn't NECESSARILY mean I don't want to kill everyone in co-op. (But let's be real - That's exactly what it means)

A simple filter should do it. Searching for Action, Panther or Ghost.

[shobhit7777777]

Trippy's 2nd sighting everyone. I saw him I saw him.

No you didn't

Source: For the last time..I'm Batman

[Andre202]

I am pretty sure you can find some dedicated fans here to go with you through it really stealthy, I believe some even still play Co-Op from time to time, and IMO since you are here early on, you will get to know us better, and know who to play with, instead of going with a new fan.

I am not sure. Did the console version had a server list in Spy vs Merc? Maybe that's the way Blacklist should go or it needs to use filters.

[sameer_monier]

I am not sure. Did the console version had a server list in Spy vs Merc? Maybe that's the way Blacklist should go or it needs to use filters.
Asking the wrong person about MP, I am the last person on earth to know anything about MP LOL
I want to change that though :(

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Sameer, you and me both. I never got to play the wildly acclaimed PT and CT versions of SvM (only the DA version and that heartbeat sensor was crap so I never got into it) :C

[sameer_monier]

Sameer, you and me both. I never got to play the wildly acclaimed PT and CT versions of SvM (only the DA version and that heartbeat sensor was crap so I never got into it) :C
Me too, kinda why I am hoping SCB Spy vs Merc is a Blast :D, I want to experience what everyone experienced :D

[shobhit7777777]

Sameer, you and me both. I never got to play the wildly acclaimed PT and CT versions of SvM (only the DA version and that heartbeat sensor was crap so I never got into it) :C

I played SCPT and DA MP on LAN

Pandora's Kung fu is stronger than Double Agent's

Tasted a bit of Chaos Theory MPas well......as good as PT's

[Andre202]

I never got into the MP of Spy vs Merc in PT and CT too since I got internet in 2006 and after that I never bothered to get used to the MP mode other then the one of DA which died out pretty fast though.

[sameer_monier]

I never got into the MP of Spy vs Merc in PT and CT too since I got internet in 2006 and after that I never bothered to get used to the MP mode other then the one of DA which died out pretty fast though.
and here I thought I was behind the curve, I believe I got my "speedy" internet around the same time, oh I am so happy I wasn't the only one late to the party :D

[Andre202]

and here I thought I was behind the curve, I believe I got my "speedy" internet around the same time, oh I am so happy I wasn't the only one late to the party :D

No. You are not alone. I think we need to catch up though, with Blacklist. Well, if it's possible and doesn't die out as fast as DA Spy vs Merc.

[sameer_monier]

No. You are not alone. I think we need to catch up though, with Blacklist. Well, if it's possible and doesn't die out as fast as DA Spy vs Merc.
Totally True, my Summer Vacation is close, I will try to get more involved in MP, try to focus more on playing games rather than following the news all day long.

I recall wanting to play DA Spy vs Merc, and .......... there I was alone running around on the map :D

I hope Blacklist delivers on the Spy vs Merc.

[Fraeulein]

There were dogs in Conviction.










For iPhone and iPad though. :P

[harbi-117]

I recall wanting to play DA Spy vs Merc, and .......... there I was alone running around on the map :D

I hope Blacklist delivers on the Spy vs Merc.oh Sameer, I remember playing only (Double Agent 360's multiplayer, Halo 2 & The Elder Scrolls Oblivion) back in 2006... good times but yeah, too bad it died quickly.

I really hope ubisoft deliver on their SvM (remake or re-imagined)...

I've stopped online gaming (not-Coop) for more than 2 years now because it was getting dull & repetitive to my taste, Ghost Recon Future Solider is what got me back. Loved the beta & can't wait to get my copy this week.

I just want a great versus multiplayer experience, don't care if it's perfect or broken, anything instead of the ... *sigh*

[SolidSage]

@Harbi
I'm kind of with you there, online play did get repetitive and boring. I played ACB and Gears2 because they were still fun but their follow up MP's, while still as good, just didn't excite me enough to play them more than a couple of times. A lot of new MP's don't excite me at all...UC3 for example.
Which brings me to my main point..GRFS MP! OH YEAH buddy, I am all about that shiz right now. Very refreshing, well produced high quality fun. Tommy Jacobs did a GREAT job with his team. I don't think the campaigns fare as well but the MP is so tasty, especially now I play with a full blown team more often. 8pm to 3am the other night with 0 losses...it's a thing of beauty.

I started with the Scout and got my Augmented camo but for some reason I just recently got inspired by the Rifleman. THAT opportunity to change your game right there is another huge replay incentive. It really is good, which is good cos I need something to play until..October?

[sameer_monier]

oh Sameer, I remember playing only (Double Agent 360's multiplayer, Halo 2 & The Elder Scrolls Oblivion) back in 2006... good times but yeah, too bad it died quickly.

I really hope ubisoft deliver on their SvM (remake or re-imagined)...

I've stopped online gaming (not-Coop) for more than 2 years now because it was getting dull & repetitive to my taste, Ghost Recon Future Solider is what got me back. Loved the beta & can't wait to get my copy this week.

I just want a great versus multiplayer experience, don't care if it's perfect or broken, anything instead of the ... *sigh*
I may get my copy of GRFS too this week, or later not sure, nasty stuff going on.
Are you getting it for PS3 or X360 ?!


@Solid: I miss the old days of great SP :(

[Andre202]

Wait, how can you judge GRFS MP as totally great for longterm excitement now as other MPs if it's just out now? Maybe you will quit GRFS later on too as you did with the other MP titles? Or do you mean the actual playtime itself which seems to be already higher in GRFS as you described it?

[harbi-117]

I didn't give Assassin's Creed Brotherhood's multiplayer a proper chance. Revelations, didn't even highlight the cursor on the multiplayer option

As for Gears, man don't know about you but I was addicted to it. It was THE game at the time. Gears 2 couldn't give it a chance because of the crappy net-code and host problems. Gears 3... still, they didn't win me with their new servers feature.

Yeah, I still have the latest multiplayer games like Battlefield and Call of duty 9000 but just because I want to stay connected with my friends. Log in, chat, make my self play a couple of rounds then log out.

So, Ghost Recon, I'm really exited for it's competitive multiplayer. I love playing as a support role in a multiplayer game (BF bad company 2's Medic / TF2's medic). I had a hard time choosing which version to buy 360 or PC. My long time co-op buddy pre-order it on PC (unlocks on steam next week)

so I had to choose :
- PC = play the game with a friend who likes playing games tactically on Very Hard on his first playthrough
- 360 = regain my faith in competitive gaming while losing the awesome coop story.

went with the 360 version...


I may get my copy of GRFS too this week, or later not sure, nasty stuff going on.
Are you getting it for PS3 or X360 ?!
I'm sorry Sameer, I mainly play on 360 & PC ... the PS3 is for the triple A awesome exclusives :)
but I think I'll get Blacklist on 360 & PS3 because I wanna order the Collector Edition on 360 so I have to wait 1-2 weeks till it arrives to me & no way I'm letting gamers play Blacklist while I watch them.


Wait, how can you judge GRFS MP as totally great for longterm excitement now as other MPs if it's just out now? Maybe you will quit GRFS later on too as you did with the other MP titles? Or do you mean the actual playtime itself which seems to be already higher in GRFS as you described it?

I think a lot of gamers can judge a multiplayer game from the start if it's something they will enjoy for a long term or not.

For example, the moment I started playing Call of Duty 9000 & Battlefield 3 I knew it's just something to pass the time or to chat & play with friends... I want that competitive feel, like in Halo 3 or Gears 1 for example & GRFS gives me that feel.

[SolidSage]

@Harbi
I do 360. Console gaming is easy access. I run 3 of them.

@Andre
I played the beta for 2 weeks then I MISSED it when it went away. Seriously MISSED it.
And I have been playing the MP now since release. Still haven't finished the campaign.

I've played a ton of competitive MP's. Every R6 except Lockdown, Gears, COD, MG Online, ACB, SCC and more. I know a good one when I see it. It has a high addictive quality, I get fun out of almost every re spawn, the controls, the choices, the objective based play, the motivation to play as a team, the REWARD for playing as a team, the variety of paths to success that include NOT having to be great at shoot outs, the awesome map design.
I could go on but GRFS MP is one of, if not THE best designed MP shooter I have seen. It's FUN. Granted there are some server issues but that's the infrastructure not the game.

I may grow tired of it though, I grow tired of all of them eventually, but this one, like R6V, has a lot of leveling and purpose for replay. I really like it. Should last me until AC3 drops.

More than anything, GRFS MP has revived strategic team play in a genre where it had seriously gone AWOL. Reviving the golden age of competitive shooters.
Not that team play wasn't available in newer shooters but too much success was available for the run n gunner who could take advantage of coding loop holes.

[Andre202]

Well, hopefully SCB will have the same effect here when it comes to longterm excitement.

[mateus99]

I buy games only for the SP experience most of the time like GRFS (PC) i will buy it only for the sp and i wont even touch the mp because i know its not good. When it comes to MP only a few games manage to peek my interest

[Andre202]

I do buy Splinter Cell games also mostly for the Singleplayer experience, but this seems slightly to change. Well we will see how the story in SCB will treat the TC in it's title.

[sameer_monier]

I too buy most of my games for SP first :D, and they say SP is dead.

[Andre202]

If they keep on doing it the way the gaming industry is handling the Singelplayer experience it might be dead soon.

[mateus99]

Sp is not dead.Its been proven by games like deus ex HR,its just overshadowed and sometimes dumbed down by developers that think gamers only want the multiplayer experience.
Its great too see more people buying Sp games :D

edit:Yes i agree with you Adre i believe that more developers should start focusing on creating good sp games (like dishonored)\
Because we see a lot of sp only games getting mp modes that are not needed.

[Andre202]

Too bad there are only a few developers who see the great potential in SP games. DE:HR is a great example I used several times for Blacklist. :)

[Bassie52]

Sp and co-op is more important to me to!..
I think co-op campaigns are the future of SP gaming..
Not that the story has to be co-op, only in the gameplay it should be optional.

[sameer_monier]

If they keep on doing it the way the gaming industry is handling the Singelplayer experience it might be dead soon.
I am so sick of the 6hrs campaign.


Sp is not dead.Its been proven by games like deus ex HR,its just overshadowed and sometimes dumbed down by developers that think gamers only want the multiplayer experience.
Its great too see more people buying Sp games :D

edit:Yes i agree with you Adre i believe that more developers should start focusing on creating good sp games (like dishonored)\
Because we see a lot of sp only games getting mp modes that are not needed.
Again true.
Dishonored on my top list.


I already started a new philosophy when it comes to games, I will buy only those that offers 20hrs, if there is a game that offers an 8hr and I like it, I will either buy it later on, or used, of course some games won't be treated like that ex. SCB it will have max 12hrs, but still I will get it day one.

But for a year like this I will be getting the games that I feel worth my money, especially for someone like me who spends most if not all of his time on SP only

[mateus99]

^thats exacly what i do with my games.Buy and support whats is actualy worth the full price.

[Andre202]

Yes, me too. Again Deus Ex, instant buy. :D

[shobhit7777777]

^thats exacly what i do with my games.Buy and support whats is actualy worth the full price.

+1

I bought the Witcher 2 for both the PC and the 360. CD Projekt red can harvest my organs if they want.

@Andre

check in at GBS ;)

[Andre202]

What's GBS?

[sameer_monier]

What's GBS?
you are kidding LOL
Shobhit is gonna kill ya for real haha ;)

[mateus99]

^the witcher 2 was one of the best games of 2011, cdprojekt knows how to make a game and support the customers with free content.
i also bought it 2 times on pc,been playing the enchanced edition recently.

[Andre202]

The only Game I could think of was Ghostbusters: Sanctum of Slime.
But I actually don't think he meant that game.

[shobhit7777777]

What's GBS?

I will ****ing murder you....Check PM

[Andre202]

Maybe we can get back to the game. Sameer you also discovered the new Stealthmeter, but it seems it's still not finished, because the only indication that shows you are hidden is the light on Sam's back.

[sameer_monier]

Maybe we can get back to the game. Sameer you also discovered the new Stealthmeter, but it seems it's still not finished, because the only indication that shows you are hidden is the light on Sam's back.
indeed, you know when you are in cover (the tent for example) you don't see the light, you don't know if you are hidden or not, so I wonder how the stealthmeter will work in cover.
I believe (not sure) that when you are in cover it is Line of Sight system (when Sam peaked he got a warning) while when you are sneaking it is Binary L&S.

A good thing to mention though, I believe the shadow density will play a role in L&S system, when Sam got into Killing in Motion, after jumping the meter showed he was hidden (though he got a warning) but when he moved a little bit forward under the shadow of the tree, the meter didn't show that he was hidden.

Also another thing I noticed when Sam said "hey you", is it a bit unrealistic ?!, I mean there are 2 other characters like 10 feet away, and they didn't even notice, but when he took down the guard they heard him ?!, how will the whistle work ?!, direction related ?!, if you face someone and whistle only him will hear you or was it just due to the easy difficulty of the demo ?!

will check the demo for more stuff.

[Andre202]

Also another thing I noticed when Sam said "hey you", is it a bit unrealistic ?!, I mean there are 2 other characters like 10 feet away, and they didn't even notice, but when he took down the guard they heard him ?!, how will the whistle work ?!, direction related ?!, if you face someone and whistle only him will hear you or was it just due to the easy difficulty of the demo ?!

will check the demo for more stuff.
I noticed that stuff too. They didn't hear you when you ran over the water too, so I think it was because of easy difficulty setting but it could be that the direction you are pointing is also important. Other then that, when Sam whistled the two guys were talking to each so they may have not noticed him.

[sameer_monier]

I noticed that stuff too. They didn't hear you when you ran over the water too, so I think it was because of easy difficulty setting but it could be that the direction you are pointing is also important. Other then that, when Sam whistled the two guys were talking to each so they may have not noticed him.
In regard to the guard who fell, and after reading your conversation in another thread, do you think the guard died or was KO ?!
This is something we need to know, in SCC any sort of take down ended up in death, even the few non lethal ones, so since SCB is bringing back the KO, as you said before will guards be able to wake him up ?!, or will the AI receive it as a death even though you just KO-ed him ?!

[Andre202]

In regard to the guard who fell, and after reading your conversation in another thread, do you think the guard died or was KO ?!
This is something we need to know, in SCC any sort of take down ended up in death, even the few non lethal ones, so since SCB is bringing back the KO, as you said before will guards be able to wake him up ?!, or will the AI receive it as a death even though you just KO-ed him ?!
It seems he was still alive. The guard was about to wake up his partner. So it seems the move Sam made there isn't deadly. Maybe it's up to how much meters he is falling down? This would be very much into detail here.

[sameer_monier]

Maybe some people missed this according to Redding:

"When we see light and weather effects and atmospheric effects, that’s going to alter the way the HUD looks, it alters the way Sam looks, it alters the amount of lens flare coming off of things. "

So that is a confirmation that we will have weather effects in different missions.


Andre: we need to get into details :D, I can't find anything more in the video :D


- I wonder if we will have control over the Missile Target, in the demo Grim set the target, I know the sequence is optional, but I want to know will we always have those big 4E signs ?!

- when using the sneaky cam there is a Rec sigh, so maybe the whole recording thing from SAR is back, good news I think, more stealth :D

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Yeah, I noticed the whistle thing too but I'm not sure how it'd actually go but he IS just whispering "hey you!" isnt he? So those two enemies were around a corner (with wall between them and Sam) and Sam was whistling specifically in his direction AND it was set on easy. Perhaps, if they were closer or not around the corner, they may have heard? That and on higher difficulties? I also noticed his friend ran over and crouched next to the guy in the water -- it doesnt prove they can wake their friends up yet but it could be.

Another thing -- you know how they say they want the player to be able to choose how to play, etc. and the econony system will reward youbased on the style you play with rewards dependant on it. Well he mentioned armor. I hope the base level of health (with no armor) makes it so you die in like...3-5 shots. That way, you really can't go in guns blazing. That was a complaint people who are hardcore fans had -- they want to be able to mess up and have it challenging, one thing to do that would be to let them strip themselves of all armor sothey have to use stealth. I'd definitely do that coupled with the hardest difficulty. Though I believe there should be Easy, Normal, Hard, and Classic/Splinter Cell. We shouldnt have to unlock that difficulty, it should be available from the start.

Easy : For the casual player who likes shooters and has a base knowledge of how they work
Normal: For the player who is experienced with shooters but doesn't like overly harsh punishment for messing up
Hard: For the player looking for a challenge where enemies are more dynamic and react better with what you do.
Splinter Cell: For the player who has stayed with the series for the longest time and itches for a real challenge, where a firefight should be a last resort as it could easily end in death.

Hitman can do it, why not SC?

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Maybe some people missed this according to Redding:

"When we see light and weather effects and atmospheric effects, that’s going to alter the way the HUD looks, it alters the way Sam looks, it alters the amount of lens flare coming off of things. "

So that is a confirmation that we will have weather effects in different missions.


Andre: we need to get into details :D, I can't find anything more in the video :D


- I wonder if we will have control over the Missile Target, in the demo Grim set the target, I know the sequence is optional, but I want to know will we always have those big 4E signs ?!

- when using the sneaky cam there is a Rec sigh, so maybe the whole recording thing from SAR is back, good news I think, more stealth :D

Are you talking about the face recognition software thing when uses the optic cable? Or did I miss something...link and point out the time if it's not a hassle.

[Andre202]

No, he means that at the time you use the snake cam, on the left bottom of the cam you will see a Recording sign, which could mean that we will need to record some conversations as we did in the first Splinter Cell game.

[sameer_monier]

Are you talking about the face recognition software thing when uses the optic cable? Or did I miss something...link and point out the time if it's not a hassle.
Look at the bottom left, it is so small, around Zoom Out


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YuhfD48VRGE#t=30 8s

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Ohhhh...hm. It also says Comm and Opsat as well as Connected and the squares fill up but I don't see why -- although they fill up as the guards approach the door -- dont see how that has anything to do with "connected" though.

[Andre202]

The squares fill up with each kill. So four kills means you can use M&E.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

Are youre Andre? The thing next to "Connected" thatgoes up and down -- it doesnt seem to have anything to do with M&E...

[Andre202]

Ohh I thought you meant the squares in the HUD. Well I think it's just there to be authentic.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I assumed haha

I do like the optic cable so far haha

[Andre202]

But other than that it seems like SC took some inspiration from GR, did they? Like that face recognition that tells you which guys you can kill and which of them not.

[sameer_monier]

^^ and the Spider Drone too.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I dont mind the face recognition software. We have that today, even civilians have access to a lowlevel version of it -- cameras. Facebook has it too, where if you upload a picture of you and a friend and if theyre not making a weird face, it'll auto-tag them for you (though you can untage them if you want), .etc. If it was then connected to your opsat and optic cable, then I can totally buy that even if it's not possible though for the life of me, I can't see why not. It didn't seem that "FUTURE" to me when I first saw it in GRFS, you know?

[Andre202]

I dont mind the face recognition software. We have that today, even civilians have access to a lowlevel version of it -- cameras. Facebook has it too, where if you upload a picture of you and a friend and if theyre not making a weird face, it'll auto-tag them for you (though you can untage them if you want), .etc. If it was then connected to your opsat and optic cable, then I can totally buy that even if it's not possible though for the life of me, I can't see why not. It didn't seem that "FUTURE" to me when I first saw it in GRFS, you know?

I don't mind it at all. :)

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

hahaha yeah it is. Thats like complaining how in SAR in the Defense Ministry when you laser mic Masse and Grinko's convo and when they get to the stop, the convo stops but you can still see them and realistically would still be talking (x

[mattduck69]

hahaha yeah it is. Thats like complaining how in SAR in the Defense Ministry when you laser mic Masse and Grinko's convo and when they get to the stop, the convo stops but you can still see them and realistically would still be talking (x


or someone awkardly soiled themselves......

[SolidSage]

^^ Except, in the commented demo, the face-recognition confirms that the target is Jadid, based on the back of his head, as he walks away.

But whatever.. That's like picking fly-poo out of pepper, isn't it?

I have to watch it again now. If that's true I think it's kind of a real issue, breaks immersion a bit. Don't we have another problem if the Snake cam does access facial recognition software? It's going to have to work on every AI face, or at least a lot of them. It probably can be resolved with a 'no relevance' text in the scan viewer.

[Andre202]

I have to watch it again now. If that's true I think it's kind of a real issue, breaks immersion a bit. Don't we have another problem if the Snake cam does access facial recognition software? It's going to have to work on every AI face, or at least a lot of them. It probably can be resolved with a 'no relevance' text in the scan viewer.
Actually, it's ok how it works. It identifies the other NPCs and reports there is no match, so the snake cam has already Jadid's face safed and therefore can differentiate from the others.

[sameer_monier]

Another new thing:

It seems that Sam Fisher got a new Subdermal Implant, he is talking to Grim without any Ear Pieces at all, let's not forget that in DA he removed it or something, and in SCC he was communication using the Ear Piece.

thoughts ?!

[Andre202]

Seems like he got another one? You are speaking from the old gen version though. Did they take that version as the canon for Conviction? I am not sure.

[sameer_monier]

Seems like he got another one? You are speaking from the old gen version though. Did they take that version as the canon for Conviction? I am not sure.
well you reminded me, he never took it out in Next Gen version, hmmmmmmmmmmm, that's puzzling.
I believe they took the X360/PS3 version as canon, since it is the version where he shot Lambert.

[Andre202]

Great picture here. That's where you see that Sam's face doesn't seem to have any colour, which is a bit weird.

[Andre202]

Look at his face... I doesn't look really Sam Fishery... you know?

[Andre202]

Haha I know. If I were to guess, I'd say it looks more Eric Johnson-ey

Ahh, I think he should look more like that:

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/158/c/8/splinter_cell_blacklist___sam_fisher_render_by_kin gacid-d52mx1g.png

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I think everyone wants Sam to look like Wallpaper Sam. haha

[SolidSage]

I think in the Wallpaper above his neck looks a little short or his head just a tad too small. I do think in the wallpaper he resembles Jeremy Renner, who is a fine actor but doesn't resemble Sam as I saw him.

I like some of the in game facial look.

[BoBwUzHeRe1138]

I think in the Wallpaper above his neck looks a little short or his head just a tad too small. I do think in the wallpaper he resembles Jeremy Renner, who is a fine actor but doesn't resemble Sam as I saw him.

I like some of the in game facial look.

Agreed about the Jeremy Renner look to him.

Disagree on not liking it -- I think he looks more like Sam in this than in-game.

[sameer_monier]

Recalling the trailer, I think SCB will be about more than the Blacklist, didn't the president shut down 3rd Echelon and issued an order to get rid of the rouge agents ?!, there it is, a 2nd mission, I believe this will be the Co-Op Campaign, you going around with a partner to take down the previous 3rd Echelon members.

Also I think we may get to see Sam actually rescuing and recruiting those agents, it was kinda hinted in the same trailer, how Sam saved someone, and welcomed him to 4th Echelon.

And with such a story for Co-Op the same trend of SCC Co-Op will be preserved, and SP will be integral to Co-Op more or less, though I wonder should we really be getting rid off every 3rd Echelon agent ?!, I mean it's understandable that they gone rouge that their organization is gone, and the one who was giving them orders is dead, and the whole government is after them, but shouldn't there be some who only followed the orders ?!, like Archer for example.

On the matter of Archer, I think we may get to see him in the Co-Op, marked as a rogue agent, who may join Sam later on. ((Opinion))

[Andre202]

Why rouge agent? Didn't Reed kill them anyway at the end of their missions? The only agents I could think of are the ones who weren't real Splinter Cells but worked like a SEAL team or Delta Force.

[sameer_monier]

Why rouge agent? Didn't Reed kill them anyway at the end of their missions? The only agents I could think of are the ones who weren't real Splinter Cells but worked like a SEAL team or Delta Force.
well I assume you are taking about A&K right ?!, I asked Redding about the whole difference between the SP Bodies and the Killed Bodies, here is his replay


Yes, it's true that Archer was in his Eclipse gear, and no that wasn't a mistake. How's that for a dodge? :)

Not to mention they were there in SMI Pic, so the possibilities are endless.

As for the other agents, well they are still capable, given right orders I think they can refrain from acting like SEALS or Delta.