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View Full Version : Zipper is 'no more' ?



paardezak
03-24-2012, 10:59 AM
What are your thoughts about this? As a big Socom fan, i'm not crying about this....

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/122/1221535p1.html

Hortey
03-24-2012, 12:54 PM
What do devs expect to happen when they constantly turn their back on the people that buy their games? The old gamers won't buy it, the new gamers won't notice it being launched at the same time as their new COD map pack. You can't just tweak and change a series like that, it ruins it... you have to either keep it the same, drop the name completely, or completely revamp the gameplay.

Socom 4 tried to keep the old socom feel with run and gun/uncharted gimmicks involved instead of staying true to their core fanbase. And now they are going hungry, while I nibble on my midnight snack browsing for a different game to play. I honestly don't care they got fired, I'm actually glad.... this and the axing of the entire operation flashpoint franchise should be the flagship message that all devs think about when they think about making their game "more accessible to a younger audience" or "streamlined". If you can do it without turning the game into another run and gun COD clone go ahead, but no one is going to shed a tear for you if you get thrown out on the street after that failure.

paardezak
03-24-2012, 02:26 PM
What do devs expect to happen when they constantly turn their back on the people that buy their games? The old gamers won't buy it, the new gamers won't notice it being launched at the same time as their new COD map pack. You can't just tweak and change a series like that, it ruins it... you have to either keep it the same, drop the name completely, or completely revamp the gameplay.

Socom 4 tried to keep the old socom feel with run and gun/uncharted gimmicks involved instead of staying true to their core fanbase. And now they are going hungry, while I nibble on my midnight snack browsing for a different game to play. I honestly don't care they got fired, I'm actually glad.... this and the axing of the entire operation flashpoint franchise should be the flagship message that all devs think about when they think about making their game "more accessible to a younger audience" or "streamlined". If you can do it without turning the game into another run and gun COD clone go ahead, but no one is going to shed a tear for you if you get thrown out on the street after that failure.

I agree, it is a shame Zipper has fallen so deep......

kingGILLEY
03-24-2012, 03:55 PM
I would rather be playing the greatest socom ever made day in and day out right now, but Zipper/SONY didnt listen to us so, as I dont wish unemployment on anyone, I still feel they got what they deserved.

shobhit7777777
03-24-2012, 04:21 PM
I don't mind streamlining...but as long as its done right. Conviction was a critical and commercial success and was really streamlined.

DanHibikiFanXM
03-24-2012, 04:54 PM
Streamlining is good - dumbing a game down is not. SOCOM 4 was dumbed down in every sense of the overused phrase. They removed pretty much every squad command, turned the campaign into basically a cooridor shooter, and ruined the multiplayer with gimmicky features like regenerating health, experience points, and a vast number of technical flaws. SOCOM 4 was destined to fail from the very day the game was conceptualized.

SOCOM 4 is the very reason why I've been so vocal about trying to preserve Ghost Recon. In my eyes it's like I'm seeing history repeat itself.

sameer_monier
03-24-2012, 04:58 PM
I don't mind streamlining...but as long as its done right. Conviction was a critical and commercial success and was really streamlined.
yeah exactly, It is sad though, to know that a developer has potential but unable to use it fully, also their PSVita new game Unite 13 got alot of good reviews.

BTW was SOCOM 4 any good ?!. you played it Shobhit, I could use your opinion.

theonlytime
03-24-2012, 06:05 PM
The only Socom game I ever played would be the PSP version of SOCOM: FTB2. I enjoyed the game, I never stopped playing the game, and online mode seemed good worthwhile. The SOCOM game on PS2 triumphed until Confrontation arrived and attempted towards the same old strategy. Bon voyage, Zipper.

DanHibikiFanXM
03-24-2012, 06:22 PM
yeah exactly, It is sad though, to know that a developer has potential but unable to use it fully, also their PSVita new game Unite 13 got alot of good reviews.

BTW was SOCOM 4 any good ?!. you played it Shobhit, I could use your opinion.

No, SOCOM 4 was terrible. Lukenbacher's commentary pretty much sums everything up.


http://youtu.be/YMHHA9Ga8XI

http://youtu.be/_OCK6o37lWU

kingGILLEY
03-24-2012, 06:26 PM
SOCOM Confrontation was a great "next gen" socom game that was under funded and developed by an under skilled developer. Bugs hurt that game more than poor design choices. Still the best weapon mechanics of any shooter I have ever played. IMO.

FifaJay
03-24-2012, 06:41 PM
Socom 4 Co-op mode is good,when people arnt running around like lunatics,I think the Cod franchise bled into other tactical shooters and took away that slow pace aspect of tactical gameplay.
Personally I think its a good game,but I do agree it is missing that older Socom feel.
Maybe a rent of Socom 4 or if a friend has a copy you could borrow for a few days,this way you arnt out of pocket.

Jimbostactics
03-24-2012, 07:36 PM
Ahh, don't believe that crap. Sony did the same thing after Socom 4 launched, they released 33 employees I think it was but 2 days later Zipper was tweeting about looking for new devs (for unit 13), and that is because Zipper only has a core studio of 50 employees, the rest they fire on a game by game basis depending on the project and for what console. Unit 13 just released for the Vita, so once again Sony is releasing all the employees hired for that project because the game is done. Kotaku just does not understand. They see a mass exodus and assume the worst. Zipper is one of Sony's top studios. In fact they were one their first studios to get next-gen kits.

and stop dissing on Socom 4...I really liked that game;)

Jimbostactics
03-24-2012, 07:44 PM
yeah exactly, It is sad though, to know that a developer has potential but unable to use it fully, also their PSVita new game Unite 13 got alot of good reviews.

BTW was SOCOM 4 any good ?!. you played it Shobhit, I could use your opinion.

Socom 4 is not nearly as bad as veteran Socom players make you believe. In fact most of them play it, alot too. The problem with them is Socom 4 is not like the older Socom games, and that was done by design because Confronation (last Socom game) was too much like the older games and fans were ranting about it.

Socom 4 still has that great rewarding feeling that Socom always offered. for example, objectives are not easy to capture, you need help from teammate suppression, and when you do cap an objective you get a great rush you just can't find in other shooters. Plus the community uses mics alot and uses teamwork. Socom 4 has one of the best game modes I had ever played, Bomb Squad, it is brilliant. Socom 4 offers a great experience, try it out. How much can the game cost nowadays?

Jimbostactics
03-24-2012, 07:58 PM
No, SOCOM 4 was terrible. Lukenbacher's commentary pretty much sums everything up.


http://youtu.be/YMHHA9Ga8XI

http://youtu.be/_OCK6o37lWU

Those vids are old with the old bugs that were patched.

This is a good indication of Socom 4 gameplay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZotzTvG5M4U&list=UUF4go5OLmE0wDBzj65nsYYA&index=6&feature=plcp

shobhit7777777
03-24-2012, 08:55 PM
yeah exactly, It is sad though, to know that a developer has potential but unable to use it fully, also their PSVita new game Unite 13 got alot of good reviews.

BTW was SOCOM 4 any good ?!. you played it Shobhit, I could use your opinion.

Sorry dude, I haven't played it. I also cannot judge the tactical goodness as there are no 'tactical' walkthroughs on the tube. Lotsa MP stuff....which I couldn't care less about.

I can't pass judgement on it. I have seen how Conviction was rejected by the "hardcore" fans of the franchise....and SOCOM 4 was like a mirror image. So I won't make up my mind unless I play it.

As for Lukenbacher's commentaries, well I'm sure they are actual concerns...but they are all MP focussed. Now I am not familiar with the SOCOM pedigree and how much of importance does it attach to MP...but it seemed like the game was heavily criticised based on the online portion alone.

I'll have to play it. Imagine if I would have entrusted the opinions of the hardcore SC fans regarding Conviction. I'd have been missing out.
From what I saw....it had some simple and easy to use commands, competent AI and brilliant soundtrack....apart from that...I'd have to play it

DanHibikiFanXM
03-24-2012, 09:47 PM
SOCOM 4 removed everything that made SOCOM popular in the first place while adding plenty of casual shooting gimmicks to make the game more palatable to the mindless casual shooting masses. They removed just about every squad command except for basic movement and a one-size-fits-all "attack" option. The campaign is linear and allows for basically no tactical choice or freedom. Multiplayer as talked about before is an absolute mess. If you've never played SOCOM or any other tactical shooter before then you might like it. If you have played SOCOM before and don't care about the franchise or it's pedigree then you might like it.

The game is playable but being simply playable isn't enough. It's not something that can be adequately conveyed without actually having experienced the game back when it was popular on PS2. SOCOM 4 doesn't play like a SOCOM title and it certainly doesn't feel like a SOCOM title.

Jimbostactics
03-24-2012, 09:52 PM
SOCOM 4 removed everything that made SOCOM popular in the first place while adding plenty of casual shooting gimmicks to make the game more palatable to the mindless casual shooting masses. They removed just about every squad command except for basic movement and a one-size-fits-all "attack" option. The campaign is linear and allows for basically no tactical choice or freedom. Multiplayer as talked about before is an absolute mess. If you've never played SOCOM or any other tactical shooter before then you might like it. If you have played SOCOM before and don't care about the franchise or it's pedigree then you might like it.

The game is playable but being simply playable isn't enough. It's not something that can be adequately conveyed without actually having experienced the game back when it was popular on PS2. SOCOM 4 doesn't play like a SOCOM title and it certainly doesn't feel like a SOCOM title.

The thing is you guys act like Socom on PS2 was flawless, those games had plenty of issues with the grenade spam, bad controls, ridiculous recoil, soft spotting, unbalanced game modes, hackers in almost every game etc..Socom was fun on PS2, and Socom 4 is fun as well. Every game has issues. The hardcore Socom fans highlight Socom's 4 issues and use it against Zipper and Sony because you guys felt betrayed they went in a new direction. All the complainers on the forums all have like 20 ore more days played on Socom 4. No game is bad if you played it that much.

Tyrone1985
03-25-2012, 12:59 AM
I hope the Team can all find jobs but other than that....good riddance.


All the complainers on the forums all have like 20 ore more days played on Socom 4. No game is bad if you played it that much.I was a complainer on that forum; don't think I put more than 20 hours on that garbage.

shobhit7777777
03-25-2012, 09:55 AM
@Danhibikifan

How was the original SOCOM compared to OGR?

DanHibikiFanXM
03-25-2012, 05:58 PM
That's a great question. OGR and SOCOM are actually conceptually similar but executed very differently. What's interesting is actually how GR changed seemingly in response to SOCOM at GR2 onwards and how it became dubbed a "SOCOM wannabe" by many PS players. The evidence is pretty telling but as far as OGR there are pretty substantial differences.

OGR was a first person crosshair view - SOCOM was primarily third person but players could switch on the fly to first person.

OGR's movement speed was slow and deliberate - SOCOM characters moved at a much higher speed and also allowed the player to jump and climb.

OGR had random bullet spray - SOCOM revolved around a recoil based system.

OGR gave players complete control over loadouts - SOCOM forced you to always have the same four guys but you could also completely customize loadouts.

OGR was set up in a way that if squad members were gunned down in a mission they were ACTUALLY dead - SOCOM was set up so members were just "incapacitated" and returned the next misison.

OGR allowed players to break up teams however they wanted - SOCOM was based on a four man fire team set up but the squad commands worked by breaking the team into battle buddy teams; Specter (the player) and Jester made the Able element (and you could issue individual commands to him too) while the other two teammates made the Bravo element.

OGR's squad commands were all based via the command map and was limited to controlling ROE, movement, and fire sectors - SOCOM had a laundry list type system that let you have an insane amount of control over squad mates.

OGR had wide open and non-linear maps - SOCOM had FS styled maps that allowed for movement and freedom but *typically* forced a gentle forward movement.

Now playing GR2 and SS it was super obvious that Red Storm was trying to capture the SOCOM magic and why the games made such a frantic jump in not only gameplay but all the little things too. I love both franchises to death to be honest. SOCOM however was limited by the PS2 hardware IMO but the games were still really dang incredible. You could tell Zipper put a lot of time and effort into getting all the details right. This video should give you an idea, it's from SOCOM II which is typically considered the best SOCOM by many including myself.


http://youtu.be/QNhqyBBj3F0

sameer_monier
03-26-2012, 12:00 PM
That's a great question. OGR and SOCOM are actually conceptually similar but executed very differently. What's interesting is actually how GR changed seemingly in response to SOCOM at GR2 onwards and how it became dubbed a "SOCOM wannabe" by many PS players. The evidence is pretty telling but as far as OGR there are pretty substantial differences.

OGR was a first person crosshair view - SOCOM was primarily third person but players could switch on the fly to first person.

OGR's movement speed was slow and deliberate - SOCOM characters moved at a much higher speed and also allowed the player to jump and climb.

OGR had random bullet spray - SOCOM revolved around a recoil based system.

OGR gave players complete control over loadouts - SOCOM forced you to always have the same four guys but you could also completely customize loadouts.

OGR was set up in a way that if squad members were gunned down in a mission they were ACTUALLY dead - SOCOM was set up so members were just "incapacitated" and returned the next misison.

OGR allowed players to break up teams however they wanted - SOCOM was based on a four man fire team set up but the squad commands worked by breaking the team into battle buddy teams; Specter (the player) and Jester made the Able element (and you could issue individual commands to him too) while the other two teammates made the Bravo element.

OGR's squad commands were all based via the command map and was limited to controlling ROE, movement, and fire sectors - SOCOM had a laundry list type system that let you have an insane amount of control over squad mates.

OGR had wide open and non-linear maps - SOCOM had FS styled maps that allowed for movement and freedom but *typically* forced a gentle forward movement.

Now playing GR2 and SS it was super obvious that Red Storm was trying to capture the SOCOM magic and why the games made such a frantic jump in not only gameplay but all the little things too. I love both franchises to death to be honest. SOCOM however was limited by the PS2 hardware IMO but the games were still really dang incredible. You could tell Zipper put a lot of time and effort into getting all the details right. This video should give you an idea, it's from SOCOM II which is typically considered the best SOCOM by many including myself.


http://youtu.be/QNhqyBBj3F0

That is amazing, I totally love the command options, there are many of it, like move to, stealth to, ...............etc, and the lean feature is looking good, you moved me, really you did.

On the other hand this really shows how games changed over the time, from hardcore to very casual, I really miss the whole 90 bullet only thing, now every rifle we got has 270/400 spare bullet, Sigh.

JediMonkeyxDoW
03-26-2012, 12:09 PM
Thats some funny commentary. Makes some of my problems on MW3 MP pale into insignificance.

Hortey
03-26-2012, 12:19 PM
Now compare socom 2 to socom 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiZV3-sNpwQ&feature=related

They are talking to the person they are hunting over the radio, there is no stealth, the second they fire their first shot a group twice their size is already firing back at them and the AI yells "RUSH THEIR POSITION" the second the firefight starts. 6 spec ops, unsilenced weapons, over 300 bullets per person, and when they start fighting an embedded force over twice their size the thing the game tells you to do is rush! How the mighty have fallen.

EDIT: also notice when they start moving in... all 6 of the spec ops guys take a knee, in the open, 15 feet from the enemy behind cover, and just start spraying automatic weapons at them.

Bassie52
03-26-2012, 03:26 PM
I know you first have to see it for yourself, but i have seen enough..never saw this game in trailers before and by looking at the your video's, it looks like an annoyoing game..
i've also looked at some other footage to and al the people giving comments are all irritated by it.. the MP just looks to chaotic, just like a 3'rd person COD..there is no thinking things trew..just dance with your enemy from left to right and hope you hit him first..some maps are open and look a bit like GRAW..but were is the recoil?, the man just opend fire and killed someone, who's standing like 500 m away across a canyon?..and then i started surching for the release date and it's a fu(king year a go??? hahaha..
the SP with the hughe annoying white aim going trew the screen constantly and the SEALs are plain stupid and made out of titanium..it looks like a shooter you find in an arcade, like army of two..from what i've seen, a lot of times the enemy are allready expecting you and just jumps out of there hiding places, when you cross a invisible line..what kind of tactics can i expect in this game?..poor socom fans....they must be furious
the jungle looks pretty nice though..

Bassie52
03-26-2012, 04:23 PM
Found DAN's S.O.C.O.M colleague on you tube:p...pretty amazing, how zipper ****ed it up..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dZN4R0qnzA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

paardezak
03-26-2012, 04:36 PM
Socom 1 & 2 ......i really liked those games. Thanks for putting that video up man!!!

shobhit7777777
03-26-2012, 05:47 PM
@Danhibikifan

SOCOM II looks good. GRFS and SOCOM feel similar thanks to SEAL advisors. The initial cutscene animation and the crouch walk look near identical.
Shame I missed it.

Thanks for the comparison

BTW remember that video request for OGR? Well...the video you posted is one of the reasons why I sent you that request (and thanks once again for making that vid ;))
if I did not have you quick brief regarding SOCOM I'd have ignored the game...he was simply bullrushing the map exploiting his knowledge of AI placement. Not moving tactically and all. Which really makes for an uninteresting watch and does not show the game in the right light.

Dan,
I have a proposal for you.

Every week/month you pick a mission from a tactical Shooter. Your choice. And you do a complete tactical playthrough. It means you treat the mission like you would in 'real life'. Use stealth, recon and teamwork. Shoot it cinematically and show people what they are missing.

You should tie this in with Serellan's project.

10 minute vids every week.

BTW I will totally understand if you're too busy..but you're the only one I could think of who would be able to pull this off especially since the GRIT vid you did.

VanilaGorila-x-
03-26-2012, 06:31 PM
The thing is you guys act like Socom on PS2 was flawless, those games had plenty of issues with the grenade spam, bad controls, ridiculous recoil, soft spotting, unbalanced game modes, hackers in almost every game etc..Socom was fun on PS2, and Socom 4 is fun as well. Every game has issues. The hardcore Socom fans highlight Socom's 4 issues and use it against Zipper and Sony because you guys felt betrayed they went in a new direction. All the complainers on the forums all have like 20 ore more days played on Socom 4. No game is bad if you played it that much.

S2 had it's issues, people aren't complaining because of that, their complaining because they removed everything that was core to SOCOM.

- Lobbies
- Clan interaction and Clan wars
- Maps built around one game mode
- Classic Game modes
- Original TP Camera Angle

I could go on and on about what has changed. Most fans wouldn't have even purchased S4 if it didn't have SOCOM in the title because that game barely resembles what once made the series so great.

DanHibikiFanXM
03-26-2012, 07:17 PM
^ This.

Shobhit funny thing you should mention that because I was actually thinking of doing something similar. Was actually making some Full Spectrum Warrior videos (technically not a tactical shooter, but whatever) and was planning to do that with them.

AI BLUEFOX
03-26-2012, 09:50 PM
Ii've also looked at some other footage to and al the people giving comments are all irritated by it.. the MP just looks to chaotic, just like a 3'rd person COD..there is no thinking things trew..just dance with your enemy from left to right and hope you hit him first..

Pretty much this, Bassie. Jimbo's counter video only serves to proves Lukenbacher's point I think. Chaos, kills streaks and no team work.

Unless the gameplay for FS is paced to allow thinking time it won't be GR, it will be just another shooter.

Bassie52
03-26-2012, 10:49 PM
Yeah, i'm pretty anxious about the MP now..looking at the guerilla mode, i think it wil be good...it wont look anything as idiotic as socom 4.. Checked out socom 3 and that looks pretty cool, but released in 2005?..

paardezak
03-26-2012, 11:34 PM
Yeah, i'm pretty anxious about the MP now..looking at the guerilla mode, i think it wil be good...it wont look anything as idiotic as socom 4.. Checked out socom 3 and that looks pretty cool, but released in 2005?..

Socom 3 was great but S1 and S2 were even better!!!

paardezak
03-26-2012, 11:38 PM
^ This.

Shobhit funny thing you should mention that because I was actually thinking of doing something similar. Was actually making some Full Spectrum Warrior videos (technically not a tactical shooter, but whatever) and was planning to do that with them.

Wow, i would like you to make those videos of BOTH games! I am probably one of the few that actually liked Full Spectrum Warrior!!! :)

shobhit7777777
03-27-2012, 05:05 PM
^ This.

Shobhit funny thing you should mention that because I was actually thinking of doing something similar. Was actually making some Full Spectrum Warrior videos (technically not a tactical shooter, but whatever) and was planning to do that with them.

:D

Can we have some OGR as well? purdy please? Thanx!

DanHibikiFanXM
03-27-2012, 08:47 PM
OGR or IT? This weekend I'm screwed thanks to drill but I'll have time in April depending on when the FS beta drops and if I end up hating it or not.

shobhit7777777
03-28-2012, 05:37 AM
OGR or IT? This weekend I'm screwed thanks to drill but I'll have time in April depending on when the FS beta drops and if I end up hating it or not.

Either..up to you :D

Soulid_Snake
03-31-2012, 01:36 AM
Sadly, its just been confirmed! :( Heres to hoping that another studio will take over the development of socom.

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/18721-sony-closes-socom-studio-zipper-interactive/