What the hell Ubisoft?

[Yukoney]

When Ubisoft first pitched Rainbow 6 Patriots as a potential cover story, we were immediately drawn in by its unique approach to storytelling. Embracing some of the narrative techniques of Heavy Rain and shifting the player perspective between Team Rainbow, the True Patriots, and the civilians caught in the crossfire convinced us that this was a project worth backing. Now it seems Ubisoft could be going in another direction.

According to our sources, Ubisoft Montreal has restructured the development team, removing creative director David Sears, narrative director Richard Rouse III, lead designer Philippe Therien, and animation director Brent George from the project, all of whom we interviewed for our Rainbow 6 Patriots cover story.

Rainbow 6 Patriots is tentatively scheduled to release in 2013 for Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and PC. How this shakeup affects the rest of the development remains to be seen. We have reached out to Ubisoft for a comment.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/03/07/ubisoft-montreal-decapitates-rainbow-6-patriots-development-team.aspx

[sameer_monier]

OMG, one of my fav. game version just got ruined, why did you do that Ubi GOD da** it, and here starts a new waiting cycle, we will probably see it in E32013 and get it in 2015, that really ruined my day.

I am really pissed now, I liked everything I read/heard, the game had alot of potential, now we are getting a diluted version, Sigh

[MeanMF]

Sure enough, the previews were too good to be true. These days Ubisoft is all about playing it safe and making games as cheaply as possible. Their days of taking risks or breaking new ground are long gone.

[Real720]

one of my fav. game version just got ruined
It's been ruined for a long time, my friend.

[shobhit7777777]

According to our sources, Ubisoft Montreal has restructured the development team, removing creative director David Sears, narrative director Richard Rouse III, lead designer Philippe Therien, and animation director Brent George from the project, all of whom we interviewed for our Rainbow 6 Patriots cover story.



http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/03/07/ubisoft-montreal-decapitates-rainbow-6-patriots-development-team.aspx

So basically everyone behind the original gameplay...with microtactics, better narrative and the revolutionary animation. Although it is too early to comment on the change in direction (they might stick to the current one) this development is not a good one for the fans.

What I want to know is that what project are those guys working on NOW? I mean that is a core team of high level devs..what are the working on? A new project?

[Aj6627]

Hopefully Ubi realized that they were making a failure of a game. I hope they go back to the good, pre-Letdown R6 formula, but I doubt it.

[gazzagb]

I get the feeling that a recent development meeting went like this:
Ubi: Make it like COD
Sears & Co: No, we're making a tactical shooter, with a strong focus on the story.
Ubi: Get out.
...and that's why they reshuffled.

[Dcopymope]

I get the feeling that a recent development meeting went like this:
Ubi: Make it like COD
Sears & Co: No, we're making a tactical shooter, with a strong focus on the story.
Ubi: Get out.
...and that's why they reshuffled.

While this certainly doesn't seem like good news to most, we'll know for sure come E3 if this is in fact the case.

[Dieinthedark]

I WANT A UBI REP ON HERE NOW!!! YOU TELL US WHAT THE **** YOU ARE THINKING KICKING THESE TALENTED PEOPLE OFF THE TEAM. IT'S A DISGRACE UBI. NOT THAT IT MAKES MUCH DIFFERENCE ANYWAY BUT I HAVE NEVER IN MY LIFE FELT MORE LIKE BOYCOTTING A GAME OR COMPANY THAN I DO NOW!!!! I HOPE YOUR GAME FAILS BECAUSE SEARS WAS PERHAPS THE MOST TALENTED MOST MOTIVATED, DRIVEN PERSON I HAVE SEEN IN A LONG TIME. YOU GUYS MAKE ME SICK!

Now, with that out of the way, why was he removed?

[TheBestTheyHad]

Thats Ubisoft for you. Been destroying great tactical shooters since Rainbow Six Vegas 2. Typical company, they have an amazing idea and is worried about what someone will think. Grand Theft Auto can have people shoot civilians, blow up cop, have sex with ****s, and steal cars but God forbid you make a game where you have to chose to kill a man for the greater good. If GTA isn't dark then you guys at Ubisoft are ******ed! Ubisoft you need to gather you **** and get real!! STOP DESTROYING GREAT IDEAS!!

[Dieinthedark]

They make me sick! I will fight this in any way I can. He showed us so much potential, and its gone. WTF?

[TheBestTheyHad]

Someone get a petition going against the bull****!!

[StealthR1]

Guys, not get too upset about this. Realize what we were going to get. An abomination of rainbow six. Not what we remember from the good ol days. I'd rather wait 4-5 years and have them scrap this crap, start over, and make a REAL tactical rainbow six shooter. Eidos successfully pulled this of with Deus Ex: Human Revolution ( original Deus Ex rated #1 game of all time by PC Gamer) after they had a lackluster Deus Ex: Inviable War. So rainbow six could make a come back, I truly hope. Though unlikely, it could still happen. But after seeing the preview 3 months ago, and the interview w/ D. Sears I'm convinced that was never going to happen with those goof balls leading the way. Don't let the door hit you on the way out... David.

[Maher21]

I will add my voice to everyone elses. UBI you better not deviate form teh direction that they were taking this. After all the gameinformer stuff, I was seriously excited about this game.

Don't screw us fans over UBIsoft

[Yukoney]

When Game Informer reported the leadership change at the upper echelons of the Rainbow 6 Patriots development team, many commentators wondered why Ubisoft would move so aggressively away from such a promising concept for a first-person shooter. Ubisoft Montreal CEO Yannis Mallat says that in spite of the restructuring, the vision that creative director David Sears shared with us on our cover story visit is still largely intact.

We spoke with Mallat, who said Sears' departure from the project was a mutual decision between himself and Ubisoft Montreal, and that it isn't affecting the company's commitment to the game.

"We're definitely going on with Rainbow, too, evolving the vision that came from David's initial input," he told us in an interview today.

Though Sears and the other staffers mentioned in the original report are no longer on Team Rainbow, both Mallat and Sears confirmed that he is still employed by Ubisoft Montreal.

"To paraphrase Mark Twain, I'm not dead, and Rainbow is still very much alive," Sears said. "I've watched the forum comments, and one of the things that's really important for everyone to understand is senior management and the editorial group challenged me to create something plausible, relevant, and that touches on the current fears of the U.S. citizens to the point that I was almost surprised myself we were taking these creative risks. They are still behind it. I spent time working on it because I love it, but there comes a point where you give the vision to everybody and they embrace it and start telling me what the vision is now."

As for Sears' new role, Mallat says Ubisoft Montreal has moved him onto "a major project for a major brand."

"Another opportunity arose that was a really good fit, and I am more than delighted to contribute to that," Sears said.

Mallat also confirmed that Rainbow 6 Patriots is still slated for a 2013 return.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/03/08/ubisoft-says-rainbow-6-patriots-is-still-on-track.aspx

[Bassie52]

Relaaaaax!, rainbow wil be fine..it always was and always wil..Probably a gameplay thing, story wil stay the same..ubisoft has more people working who wil deliver..in the end it's how ubi want's it to be, with or without david..

[Real720]

Relaaaaax!, rainbow wil be fine..it always was
You should do some stand-up comedy.

[EvilPixieGrrr]

I understand that many of you are upset over this news and hopefully when more information is provided you'll feel better about it. Let's please keep this conversation productive, constructive, and civil or I'll have to lock the thread. Thanks.

[StealthR1]

I understand that many of you are upset over this news ... bla bla bla

I am totally inspired by this news. I think it's great. I couldn't be happier! Seriously I am not being sarcastic or anything. I'm glad D. Sears is no longer leading the abomination that would have been Rainbow Six: Patriots. Perhaps now we *may* get an awesome tactical shooter. I truly believe it's a great move by Ubi, the first good moved in what 8 years? I am totally thrilled. 100% backing here. Probably should have happened 3 months ago... but better late then never.

[sonoblink]

On the positive sear's was too picky in my opinion, you can see this in 1 of the vid's where he starts on brent about some animation part that would have made no real diff to the game and only put xtra man hours onto finishing the game. The department heads know what there doing Brent and Co RB6 is in good hands )

[sackboy411]

The only thing I trust Ubi to make these days is Assassin's Creed. It's their biggest money maker, and therefore in their mind requires the most effort. Which is good for me because I'm a huge AC fan, but their other games do seem kind of.... expendable. Need I remind everyone of the original Conviction build?

[StealthR1]

yea without assassin's creed ubi would have probably folded and closed its doors yeas ago.

[rogue_tom]

It's good news. The "not gameplay footage" from a few months back doesn't look anything like Rainbow 1,2,3, and doesn't look anything like SOCOM. It looks like a cross between lockdown and Vegas which I don't want to play. I brought Vegas 2 a week back, I don't want to play. They should do something new. With a bit of luck the moved developers are working on a better tactical shooter. Sears said he prefers to be on the new project, which is a sign of a good thing.

[Bassie52]

stand up comedy?...really?, you'r laughing??..ok:confused:

I like assassins to and it maybe ubi's trophy, but it's not ubisoft biggest achievement..
Don't forget that the tom clancy series are what made ubisoft big enough to make games like assassins...
The Tom clancy series are just as important..
They do listen to there fan's, but times change...Looking at other game developers, at least ubisoft got the cojones to change..
Your emotions are importand, but not fully in consideration, when you got a company that needs to support itself with the changes of interesd in gaming..
David has great idea's and ubisoft takes this game just as serious as assassins.. i like were R6 is going and ofcourse it wil be great.

[imjustpassing]

Sears said he prefers to be on the new project, which is a sign of a good thing.

Actually, he was more than probably ordered by the PR team to say that, otherwise, bye bye David...

[MeanMF]

Sears had a vision for the game, and was at least taking a risk and trying something different. No, it wasn't old-school R6, but it certainly wasn't Lockdown/Vegas either. I'm afraid that now they're just going to water it down into yet another generic shooter.

[Dcopymope]

stand up comedy?...really?, you'r laughing??..ok:confused:I like assassins to and it maybe ubi's trophy, but it's not ubisoft biggest achievement..Don't forget that the tom clancy series are what made ubisoft big enough to make games like assassins...The Tom clancy series are just as important..They do listen to there fan's, but times change...Looking at other game developers, at least ubisoft got the cojones to change..Your emotions are importand, but not fully in consideration, when you got a company that needs to support itself with the changes of interesd in gaming..David has great idea's and ubisoft takes this game just as serious as assassins.. i like were R6 is going and ofcourse it wil be great.
Does Bohemia Interactive Studio need to support itself with the so called changes of interests in gaming, PC or not? Bohemia is doing just fine making the games they want to make for the fanbase they have profited off of since its inception. They don't give a sh!t about catering to anybody else outside of the fanbase, to people who, unless they make Arma 3 into something like a Call of Duty/BF3 clone, wouldn't give a sh!t about their games in the first place, the same goes for IO Interactive with their Hitman series. They were doing just fine making the games they wanted to make for their fanbase, although this seems to be changing with Absolution. This is the attitude that Ubi Soft had for the Tom Clancy games once upon a time, and they had some of the best games on the market because of it, and it is the attitude or policy they need to go back to.
Sears had a vision for the game, and was at least taking a risk and trying something different. No, it wasn't old-school R6, but it certainly wasn't Lockdown/Vegas either. I'm afraid that now they're just going to water it down into yet another generic shooter.What has been promised on paper may sound good, but what was shown to us in the target footage was nothing more than another generic shooter, not a real R6 game. I'm waiting for real gameplay to show me that this is anything but a generic Halo/Gears of War/Call of duty clone. All that which was promised to us is just feel good language at this point.

[MeanMF]

The sad fact is that we'll probably never know how Sears' version of the game would have played out. But the new direction for the story was certainly an improvement over the godawful hack writing in the last few GR & R6 games. I'm afraid we're just going to go back to more helicopter boss battles now.

[Bassie52]

It's like musicians going commercial, they wil make a lot more money but at the cost of maybe loosing some of there fan's..
Ubisoft took that path and has grown so big as to having company's all over the world..
With that comes a lot of sacrifice in the way Ubisoft used to work..The stakes are much higher, the quality is much higher and they have a lot more mouths to feed..
And a small portion of fans wil be dissapointed and that's just how it is..

[StealthR1]

...the quality is much higher...

Whatever your smokin man must be some good stuff. The quality of Lockdown/Vegas/Vegas2 > RB6, Rouge Spear, Raven Shield? I don't think so.

[Dcopymope]

The stakes are much higher, the quality is much higher and they have a lot more mouths to feed..And a small portion of fans wil be dissapointed and that's just how it is..

You either must be joking or you've lost your mind. Define "small portion". Can we get a estimate?

[Bassie52]

Let's just estimate R6 having 100.000 hardcore fans, now that's probably to much!!, ....Rainbow six vegas sold over 1.7 million copies..R6 in total more then 25 milllion copies..The rest are people who just buy the game, play it for 2 months and let the game collect dust..those last people are what Ubisoft sees as there target customer, by making the game more accessable to them.. how many of the 1.7 million do you think are hardcore fans??...Why do you think Ubisoft changes there games, to just piss the fans of?

With quality i mean ghost recon, assassins, Splintercell series..the R6 series looked like cr4p, but i believe patriots wil probably be added to that list..

[Pest_AWC]

Why do you think Ubisoft changes there games, to just piss the fans of


More like, they change a great selling franchise like R6 due to leadership that thinks they can either make a quick buck off the R6 name with a cheap watered down realease (Lockdown - no planning and a dozen bullets to get a kill) or they think they have such an amazing new direction but still want to insure success and leach off the R6 fanbase with options no fan asked for (Vegas - 3rd person, health regen, non-matching teams).

What other companies have done this to their succesfull franchises?

I can't think of any.

COD evolved from version to version and kept increasing the fan base.

Battlefield did the same.

All the sports and racing games keep improving from version to version without upsetting fans by going off in some new direction nobody asked for.

All this talk about UBI needing to have R6 appeal to a wider audiance is corporate BS. A really fun game with fans that are treated right will do very well unless you ignore your fans and try to force feed them some new thing that some exec thinks has to be the next big thing...or worse...changes a game to be like some other companies top selling game.

The first 3 R6 games built on each other's success and had the largest following and most sales for that time period. There is NO evidence to show that they wouldn't have had tremendous success by improving on R6 Ravenshield for the 4th R6 game instead of slapping the R6 name on whatever FPS they felt like slapping it on.

Now we are left in chaos with both fans of the first 3 more strategic and realistic games, and this new group of fans that like respawns, health regen, and magically seeing around walls without being seen. Thanks for ruining a franchise UBI. Go pat yourself on the back while your company keeps losing money on back to back years.

[Bassie52]

Battlefield 1 changed to Battlefiel 2 cod edition..completely different game..
The need for speed i played in the 90's, also went completely 180 degrees' in to my trash can .. the most other race games are mostly simulation..(nfs th run is really good though)
Your right, they try'ed to improve there fanbase, just as ubi is doing..
Cod don't need to change there games, because there are more people who rather play a game were they don't have to think and just shoot everything that has a pulse..and that nr is climbing..
The new type gamers don't like the tactical way of gaming they had in the 90's and early 2000..it's boring to them and it takes to long..
The last R6 came out in 2007 and like Ghost recon they took to long to make a new title..Now these new titles wil probably bring an even bigger new type of ADHD gamers to the table..
Times change, people change and ubisoft has to change with that, for they are not a small company anymore that get's by on doing very well..ghost recon has the exact same problem..

[Dieinthedark]

I think another part of the problem is that Ubi doesn't realize what we want. Obviously, if you look at my profile pic and sig you'll see I'm a splinter cell person. The point I'm making is that they wanted to evolve SC. Okay, fair enough, that sounds reasonable. SCC is a fantastic game. All of the game mechanics, the features etc etc work very well. It's polished, it performs nicely, it's an all around good game. BUT....yes, there's a but, it isn't Splinter Cell. you can have Michael ironside, you can call it splinter cell, you can have your character look like sam fisher but SCC is not splinter cell. That's their problem. They look at their games and they're like oh it works well, why does everybody on the forums hate us? Because in your evolution process, they loose what made the games special. I'm all for evolving a game concept, i really am. But you have to keep your roots in place. Anyone agree?

[rogue_hart]

"The new type gamers don't like the tactical way of gaming they had in the 90's and early 2000..it's boring to them and it takes to long.."

*goes looks at the most popular game on steam.*





67,028
70,356

Football Manager 2012 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/71270/)












Have you played football manager? You pick players for a team, create tactics and watch the games play out. Remind anyone of an old popular 90s shooter perhaps? An old shooter were you would pick you're squad members based on their stats, kit them out, create tactics and then watch your tactics play out.

The look down the list of steams most popular games

[Bassie52]

I agree, im a ghost recon person and i think FS is going to be my kind of game..but it's not a ghost recon game if you compare it to graw....it should be given its own titl, just because i want to see a graw 3..others said the same for graw and vegas and convictin at the time...but i liked them al and sometimes still play them..

[Bassie52]

can't compare football with a shooter...
if you like football then you know every player and team and everyone's skills and then it's fun to make your own team with transfers and all that, because those people are real and your a fan!!.. the whole point in every football game, like fifa and pes is to make these transfers and end up with the best team..
Is it so hard to believe that they need to simplify shooters to make them more accessable to a bigger audience?..

[StealthR1]

Let's just estimate R6 having 100.000 hardcore fans, now that's probably to much!!, ....Rainbow six vegas sold over 1.7 million copies..R6 in total more then 25 milllion copies...

If you look at those number one quickly realizes what a failure Rainbow Six has been for Ubi. 6 Rainbow Six games and Vegas made 1.7 million sales and Vegas 2 2 million http://www.joystiq.com/2008/03/31/rainbow-six-vegas-2-sells-two-million-worldwide-ubi-raising-fis/

So thats 3.7 mil for the last two titles. Lets assume and be generous and say Lockdown sold 1-2mil, that leaves over 20 mil for the first 3 games + expansion packs. Compared to the sales of BF3, over 10 million and CoD: MW3 over 25 million, 1.7 and 2 million look like a JOKE.

[rogue_hart]

can't compare football with a shooter...

I can compare football to shooters, I play FM because it's an enjoyable game. Not because it's football. We don't get more games with FM's gameplay because investors think it's popular because of football. It's not. Read the comments on it's forum. A lot of people who play FM don't care for football.


Is it so hard to believe that they need to simplify shooters to make them more accessable to a bigger audience?..

Yes. I find it very hard to believe. Football manager isn't a simple game and yet the bigger audience prefer to play it. Judging on steam the bigger audience prefers to play FM and shooters. The original gameplay of rainbow six was a cross between football manager and shooters.

Imagine if Rainbow six kept to it's routes, it would be on steams most played games. Ubi could have improved Rainbow six by adding hundreds of new operatives to pick from to join rainbow, as if the player is actually Six, made planning more involved and had a complex level generator which would create random maps. R6 should be a dynamical game like FM and allow the player more input.

[Justin-x]

@rogue_hart

I think your missing the biggest part of your own post, which is that these are PC players you are talking about. PC players are the oldest demographic among this generation's platforms. Considering this, it is natural that this demographic is more interested in complex and engaging games than more simplified games. But that doesn't mean that this the only market Ubisoft to target their games. Console gamers make up a younger demographic but are many more times vast than PC. Remember, Ubisoft is a business and in order to make a profit these days they have to tarket a much wider market and just relying on a few hundred-thousand sales from the PC crowd is not their goal.

[Bassie52]

@stealthR1; Those nr's don't mean that R6 is a complete failure...it's still a lot of money and take in consideration that it's NOT ubisofts top selling game right now..maybe in the 90's and early 2000, but then ubisoft and gaming interest were a lot smaller then today and a lot less console minded..people sat behind there pc's playing these games ( i was playing counterstrike)
The tables have turned and there are much more people gaming these day's and 98% of those young new gamers don't want to sit behind pc's for hours and hours, they rather sit in front of a hughe flatscreen with some friends shooting everything that moves...
The 25 million is from the 12 pc versions and 7 console versions and 3 handheld R6 versions
But it shows you all exactly what i mean, by simplifying the games to make them more accessable....i mean just look at those nr's were the game mw3 on it's OWN, sold more then all the R6 titles TOGETHER???..doesn't that ring a freakin bell??
Ubisoft isn't blind and i'm 31 years old and i like the old tactical way of gaming to, but it's dying in these series...
Just look at future soldier, it has transformed into gears of war/ R6/GR/SCC in one and it's the new tactical way of gaming, easy gameplay and accessable to everyone.,but the difference between cod and BF3 is that they still have to use there brain ...
Ubisoft is playing it very smart with FS and my guess is that FS wil get up there with COD and BF3...

Ok you know what, let's just say they are bringing the tactics back like in the game Football manager...you really think that R6 wil sell even better..?
How many people are we talking about here?... My geuss is not even 3 million..
People that come to forums like these or the hardcore fans in general are importand to ubisoft, but in the end don't pay the bill..

[Bassie52]

btw i personally really like were ghost recon and R6 is going, but i would also like to see the old ones back on these next gen consoles..
@stealth r1 yes the stuff that i'm smoking is pretty high quality:)

[rogue_hart]

@rogue_hart

I think your missing the biggest part of your own post, which is that these are PC players you are talking about. PC players are the oldest demographic among this generation's platforms. Considering this, it is natural that this demographic is more interested in complex and engaging games than more simplified games. But that doesn't mean that this the only market Ubisoft to target their games. Console gamers make up a younger demographic but are many more times vast than PC. Remember, Ubisoft is a business and in order to make a profit these days they have to tarket a much wider market and just relying on a few hundred-thousand sales from the PC crowd is not their goal.

Games still sell in the millions on PCs. Sure console gamers prefer dexterous gameplay with the thumbs. I'm not saying that should be taken away. To make more of a pc friendly game, With FM type gameplay (tactics / squad members / Planning) , would bring in another 15-25% of sales, minimum. It's like Fifa. There's loads of settings and tactics to change on the consoles but most console gamers just want to jump in a play a game and they can. I think it can be the same for Rainbow Six.

[Bassie52]

yeah, but then Ubisoft has to make a specific pc game for it to happen....Witch can be downloaded in a heartbeat..

[StealthR1]

Justin-X,Bassie52 , I get what you are saying. In a nutshell Ubi wants to make money and sell to the demographics that buys games, the 20s some console gamers. But sooner or later those 20s something will be 30 and 40... they be making more money... you see where this is going? Now one can use the argument that they may have less time. But then again some 20s or something don't make as much money now a days. What I trying to say it there is probably a very good market for strategy or more mature games. If ubi made for the mature crowd I'm sure it would sell if the game was good. I think the real issue is ubi rainbow six games just haven't been that good. They they were they'd have sales #'s near what CoD or BF3.

[Bassie52]

R1, you just made a really good point there..
Because gaming as we know it, is in it's prime now, in the near future that gaming in general will stay the same and the diffrence in between old and new gamers wil be more importand...
Because there wil be just as much old gamers, who wil have there say in things..
Other company's could rise up, like Cristian Allen is attempting to right now...

[Soulid_Snake]

Whatever your smokin man must be some good stuff.

Lol

[shobhit7777777]

Is anyone taking Developer Exhaustion into consideration? That they might want to do something different? Making One game and then iterations of it would be really sapping on the creative juices IMO after a couple of games.

[Jazz117Volkov]

yeah, but that's also the point where the devs should be content with their creation and hand it off to a new team who really wants to drive the 'existing' (key word there) formula forwards.
Just look at 343 with the new Halo.

[Pest_AWC]

Is anyone taking Developer Exhaustion into consideration? That they might want to do something different? Making One game and then iterations of it would be really sapping on the creative juices IMO after a couple of games.

There are always ways to improve a game by adding features and not take away.

Had they taken Ravenshield, added Repelling and a few new Vegas gadgets and some character customization (NOT uniform color/camo pattern that should be the same for entire team!) then we wouldn't have much to complain about and would still be playing it.

They can go ahead and add a "Casual" mode to it to increase profits for those that need health regen, respawning, and magical 3rd person cover...but instead they decided to alienate all of the fans of the original 3 games and come out with just another casual shooter.

Just like sports, there is room for the hardcore as well as larger casual audiance. What UBI fails to realize is that while the hardcore fans of the original 3 games may be fewer in numbers than casual gamers, they are the most vocal and help sales. They also would have been the ones to create free maps and content for the game had UBI released mod tools.

In no business does it make sense to alienate the minority of hardcore fans just to please a greater number when you have the option to please both.

[Dcopymope]

There are always ways to improve a game by adding features and not take away.

Had they taken Ravenshield, added Repelling and a few new Vegas gadgets and some character customization (NOT uniform color/camo pattern that should be the same for entire team!) then we wouldn't have much to complain about and would still be playing it.

They can go ahead and add a "Casual" mode to it to increase profits for those that need health regen, respawning, and magical 3rd person cover...but instead they decided to alienate all of the fans of the original 3 games and come out with just another casual shooter.

Just like sports, there is room for the hardcore as well as larger casual audiance. What UBI fails to realize is that while the hardcore fans of the original 3 games may be fewer in numbers than casual gamers, they are the most vocal and help sales. They also would have been the ones to create free maps and content for the game had UBI released mod tools.

In no business does it make sense to alienate the minority of hardcore fans just to please a greater number when you have the option to please both.

There is the hardcore fanbase, meaning those who liked the first three Rainbow Six games, the real ones, and then there is everyone else, the people who are categorized as the casual group, some of which never even heard of Rainbow Six before Vegas came out. Obviously, had Ubisoft not made the changes they made in the Vegas games, this mass group of gamers we call the casual group would have never cared to play the game in the first place, because it never appealed to them anymore than Arma 2 or Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising. So Ubi Soft in an attempt to make more money gave us Vegas 1, which compared to the other shooters the game was competing with like Call of Duty 3, still failed miserably in sales. In fact, Vegas 1 to this day hasn't sold much more than the first Rainbow Six game, very telling indeed.

Rainbow Six 1: 1.64m
Rainbow Six: Vegas: 1.89m

To me, this shows that the casual fanbase doesn't even constitute the vast majority of gamers who play Rainbow Six. And its not even worth mentioning the sales for Vegas 2 as it didn't sell much more than the first Vegas and was absolutely destroyed by Call of Duty: World at War. So as you said, this issue can be remedied by making the game for both the hardcore & casual fanbase, however unlikely this is to happen.

[Dieinthedark]

^Well just to clarify, I read the RB6 book long before I knew there were games and I've only played V1 and V2. But mind you I have played OFDR and enjoyed it and would love to play ArmA2 but I can't stand playing on PC. The truth is is that people that are hardcore, or even people that care about the games (regardless of their _____core level) are the people that are on forums and talk about what they like, what they hate etc...so me, you, and everybody else on here. We are the minority. It doesn't matter how many hardcore fans there are, games have become increasingly expensive to produce and any company has to market to a broad dynamic. Otherwise, they lose money, big time.

[Dcopymope]

^Well just to clarify, I read the RB6 book long before I knew there were games and I've only played V1 and V2. But mind you I have played OFDR and enjoyed it and would love to play ArmA2 but I can't stand playing on PC. The truth is is that people that are hardcore, or even people that care about the games (regardless of their _____core level) are the people that are on forums and talk about what they like, what they hate etc...so me, you, and everybody else on here. We are the minority. It doesn't matter how many hardcore fans there are, games have become increasingly expensive to produce and any company has to market to a broad dynamic. Otherwise, they lose money, big time.

This isnt entirely true, especially for small companies like Bohemia
Interactive.




8. And at this point, how does the game work in the market? We saw the first few weeks the game was selling well in digital distribution...

ARMA 2 definitely is a success in terms of sales. It seems that despite the world economical crisis, Bohemia Interactive can again stand on it’s own feet for a while and focus on game development without having to worry about satisfying a bottom line or meeting financial targets, in this day and age that’s pretty rare, but one could say it reaffirms our ambitious development philosophy as not being completely cuckoo!


link: http://www.themysteryexaminer.com/examinado/entrevistas/entrevista-a-bohemia-interactive-arma-2/bohemia-interactive-interview-arma-2/

As for Ubi Soft, I'm going to assume they have to market their games to a broader audience because of the size of their company, the bigger they are the more money have to make in order to survive. This may be true for Ubi Soft to an extent, but as Ive shown, not entirely, especially when factoring in the numerous other games they make millions off of. But whether or not this is true at all, it still doesn't excuse the Vegas games for the pieces of garbage they are. Little of those games resemble the first three Rainbow Six games, so I still don''t know why they even called them Rainbow Six.

[shobhit7777777]

There are always ways to improve a game by adding features and not take away.

Had they taken Ravenshield, added Repelling and a few new Vegas gadgets and some character customization (NOT uniform color/camo pattern that should be the same for entire team!) then we wouldn't have much to complain about and would still be playing it.

They can go ahead and add a "Casual" mode to it to increase profits for those that need health regen, respawning, and magical 3rd person cover...but instead they decided to alienate all of the fans of the original 3 games and come out with just another casual shooter.

Just like sports, there is room for the hardcore as well as larger casual audiance. What UBI fails to realize is that while the hardcore fans of the original 3 games may be fewer in numbers than casual gamers, they are the most vocal and help sales. They also would have been the ones to create free maps and content for the game had UBI released mod tools.

In no business does it make sense to alienate the minority of hardcore fans just to please a greater number when you have the option to please both.

Its not that easy. Raven Shield had its strong points but also had glaring flaws. The AI, the gunplay and the limited flexibility. Its not just add this and add that...it requires a new direction. New mechanics, visuals and AI systems to accomodate the dynamic gameplay. Adding the Vegas mechanics would have led to serious re-design issues..not possible in a yearly development cycle. But that is besides the point.

Hopefully the next Rainbow game would be a hybrid of Vegas and Raven Shield. It is not terribly difficult to do so. A better 3rd person cover system that allows peripheral vision but eschews unrealistic FOVs/Over-the-wall sight syndrome, great gunplay, Realistic AI, flexible tactical options and command UI, verticality and multiple breaching options would really add to the game. Layer that with large sandbox maps, ability to coordinate actions with another 3 man team, plan out WPs, customise team loadout and rosters..and you have a winner. Imagine a PEC system for the entire team. That'd be excellent.

As for the health system...I couldn't care less if its regen or health pack based. I just wish that if you are shot you die or are incapable of performing certain actions...punishing.

[cpt_freedom]

http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/disgusted-oh-god-why-text-l.png

[Nocturnal_tru]

I get the feeling that a recent development meeting went like this:
Ubi: Make it like COD
Sears & Co: No, we're making a tactical shooter, with a strong focus on the story.
Ubi: Get out.
...and that's why they reshuffled.

I'm pretty sure that's how it went down. The CoD trend better not take over RB6 franchise as it has with other games . Most recently Battlefield 3 "Rent a Server" update which pretty much downgraded nearly everything.

[Dcopymope]

I'm pretty sure that's how it went down. The CoD trend better not take over RB6 franchise as it has with other games .

The COD trend took over RB6 long ago with the Vegas series, which didn't work out too well for them in unit sales as I've shown in my previous posts, they still got murdered by Call of Duty. It shows that if its even possible at all to compete with games like Call of Duty & Halo in unit sales, then copying them is most certainly not the way to do it.


Most recently Battlefield 3 "Rent a Server" update which pretty much downgraded nearly everything.

I never tried using the rent a server feature, but I personally never experienced anything that has been downgraded as far as the gameplay is concerned. Most players apparently don't like the Mortar weapon as its almost always disabled, unless me not being able to use the weapon in rented servers is a new glitch that came with the recent update. With this being said, unlike Ubi Soft, at least Dice didn't compromise and turn BF3 into a Call of Duty clone and gave us a real sequel to Battlefield 2, and still managed to sell over 10 million units so far. If Ubi Soft wants to be truly successful with Patriots, then they should do what Dice did and make a standard mode that is more geared towards those who like Call of Duty or the "casual" fanbase, and a hardcore mode for real Rainbow Six fans. Basically, the more options they give the players the more players they are guaranteed to draw in.

[Nocturnal_tru]

The COD trend took over RB6 long ago with the Vegas series, which didn't work out too well for them in unit sales as I've shown in my previous posts, they still got murdered by Call of Duty. It shows that if its even possible at all to compete with games like Call of Duty & Halo in unit sales, then copying them is most certainly not the way to do it.

Well Vegas 1 was pretty good and tactical back in the day. Of course the gamers started playing the game like it was CoD which didn't work out to well for them. Most people play the same maps because the larger maps require them to think to much. Also shouldering aka glitching is a huge problem in the Vegas series and what I'm seeing.....it will be a problem in Patriots [gun sticking through wall while shooting]. If you get on RB6: Vegas 1 you'll normally see Casino Vault, Kill House or LVU Campus. Very easy maps to run and gun with plus easy to spawn camp. The older community is long gone from the game. The newer community [late 2008 and up] has changed the game to a run and gun \ cheating is accepted to win situation.

Now Vegas 2 on the other hand definitely took the CoD route. Ubi needed to update the game, but I'm sure they could have done a much better job. The game was more run and gun. Vegas 2 did bring some pretty nice ideas to the table like random spawns to prevent spawn trapping and high stakes. I hate the reload cancellation feature, that made the game tooooo run and gun friendly. Also Vegas 2 tried to take the CoD route by "hiding the lag" [I forgot the name of it].....but even though it appeared we had no bullet lag.....we definitely did [P2P connections]. This made the hit detection appear to be horrendous. With all of that said the community is still pretty active. You can find a game at anytime of the day still. Basically the same game with upgraded mechanics.



I never tried using the rent a server feature, but I personally never experienced anything that has been downgraded as far as the gameplay is concerned. Most players apparently don't like the Mortar weapon as its almost always disabled, unless me not being able to use the weapon in rented servers is a new glitch that came with the recent update. With this being said, unlike Ubi Soft, at least Dice didn't compromise and turn BF3 into a Call of Duty clone and gave us a real sequel to Battlefield 2, and still managed to sell over 10 million units so far. If Ubi Soft wants to be truly successful with Patriots, then they should do what Dice did and make a standard mode that is more geared towards those who like Call of Duty or the "casual" fanbase, and a hardcore mode for real Rainbow Six fans. Basically, the more options they give the players the more players they are guaranteed to draw in.


There are way more problems than the mortar trust me. Also DICE DID compromise and has basically turned the BF3 franchise into dumb'ed down version of the game [similar to CoD]. DICE did the samething to BF3. They updated that game 3 times and after the 3rd update everything in the game was downgraded except shotguns. DICE catered to the kiddies who couldn't stand being shot. All of this has ultimately led to a run and gun or camp \ spray type of game. Ubi should NOT follow what DICE did. DICE is clearly in it for the money and I hope thats not the case with RB6: Patriots. I'm all for fun, but I'm not for devs updating the game to compensate for whiners who can't stand being shot and killed with less bullets. This isn't CoD.

Also if you want to see how p***** the Battlefield community is just check here:

http://blogs.battlefield.com/2012/04/bf3-update-live-on-x360/

or here

http://blogs.battlefield.com/2012/04/xbox-360-patch-going-live-april-3rd/

Not everyone hates the patch, but there have been plenty of speaking out about how much they dislike it. Enough to have DICE come out and say they will tweak something with the game, because at this point DICE is apparently losing it's long term fanbase I think. They have already stated that the suppression change was a mistake and overdone. They've also stated that the patch will be we worked and the game will be updated again. I'm personally done with a game I have to re-learn or adapt to every three months.

[Dcopymope]

Well Vegas 1 was pretty good and tactical back in the day. Of course the gamers started playing the game like it was CoD which didn't work out to well for them. Most people play the same maps because the larger maps require them to think to much. Also shouldering aka glitching is a huge problem in the Vegas series and what I'm seeing.....it will be a problem in Patriots [gun sticking through wall while shooting]. If you get on RB6: Vegas 1 you'll normally see Casino Vault, Kill House or LVU Campus. Very easy maps to run and gun with plus easy to spawn camp. The older community is long gone from the game. The newer community [late 2008 and up] has changed the game to a run and gun \ cheating is accepted to win situation.

Now Vegas 2 on the other hand definitely took the CoD route. Ubi needed to update the game, but I'm sure they could have done a much better job. The game was more run and gun. Vegas 2 did bring some pretty nice ideas to the table like random spawns to prevent spawn trapping and high stakes. I hate the reload cancellation feature, that made the game tooooo run and gun friendly. Also Vegas 2 tried to take the CoD route by "hiding the lag" [I forgot the name of it].....but even though it appeared we had no bullet lag.....we definitely did [P2P connections]. This made the hit detection appear to be horrendous. With all of that said the community is still pretty active. You can find a game at anytime of the day still. Basically the same game with upgraded mechanics.

This really isn't saying much at all, as there wasn't much thinking required to play it to begin with regardless of the maps size, compared to the older R6 games at least. There can't possibly be much thought required for a game that doesn't punish you for being shot, it is after all a shooting game when it comes down to it. The game required no more brain power than Halo. You get shot, no worries, just make a run for it, hide under a desk and you'll magically heal. Beyond the cheap half assed cover system and the nonexistent planning phase that was the heart & soul of Rainbow Six, the wolverine health system alone dramatically changed the way Rainbow Six used to be played. The game may not be run & gun in the same way Call of Duty is, but its still run & gun regardless. The gameplay can be summed up in one sentence: camp using the cheating cover system, pop out & shoot when an enemy runs around a corner, and run and hide to heal. There isn't much if any tactics requred in this gameplay. It doesn't take much at all to completely change the identity of a franchise, or destroy it.


There are way more problems than the mortar trust me. Also DICE DID compromise and has basically turned the BF3 franchise into dumb'ed down version of the game [similar to CoD]. DICE did the samething to BF3. They updated that game 3 times and after the 3rd update everything in the game was downgraded except shotguns. DICE catered to the kiddies who couldn't stand being shot. All of this has ultimately led to a run and gun or camp \ spray type of game. Ubi should NOT follow what DICE did. DICE is clearly in it for the money and I hope thats not the case with RB6: Patriots. I'm all for fun, but I'm not for devs updating the game to compensate for whiners who can't stand being shot and killed with less bullets. This isn't CoD.

Also if you want to see how p***** the Battlefield community is just check here:

http://blogs.battlefield.com/2012/04/bf3-update-live-on-x360/

or here

http://blogs.battlefield.com/2012/04/xbox-360-patch-going-live-april-3rd/

Not everyone hates the patch, but there have been plenty of speaking out about how much they dislike it. Enough to have DICE come out and say they will tweak something with the game, because at this point DICE is apparently losing it's long term fanbase I think. They have already stated that the suppression change was a mistake and overdone. They've also stated that the patch will be we worked and the game will be updated again. I'm personally done with a game I have to re-learn or adapt to every three months.

The only thing I can personally tell was truly downgraded was the mortar weapon. Before this last update, not only could you fire off the rounds a lot faster, but they did a lot more damage than they do now. If there is any other changes that has been made to the weapons, then its minor at best to me.

[sir_lysander]

I was far less concenred with the game-play, as the story idea as outlined in the Game Informer article not only turned me off getting this Rainbow Six, but any Ubisoft title.

Maybe by axing the creative team, Ubi is trying to undo the damage caused on that front. After all, the game could have had a perfect play style, but there'd have been a snowball's chance I would have bought it with the outlined story idea - and I'm probably not alone on that.

[Ramzanox]

probably will fail like future soldier piece of crap console port

[rockdog1]

Finally, a comment worthy of being posted! How long has it been since R6V2? They could just as well do without any more Rainbow 6. I hpoe not, personally, but you arrogant *edit* act like your next freakin' breath depends on Sears and crew. It was due to be released in Dec., it could come out tomarrow and be no better or worse. Quit being such a puss, grow up and keep playing what ever you been playing for the last 6,8,10 years! Geez!

[SCE_Soultear]

lead designer Philippe Therien = fail. + after game release no support.

[SCE_Soultear]

They could just as well do without any more Rainbow 6. !

If they cant do it right, don't do it at all. Been waiting 10 years now and I am not changing my stance on the matter. This was a dynasty of a game that "could have been!"

[Henkaz]

Please show support for this Facebook page so Ubisoft don't replace the voice of Sam Fisher!

https://www.facebook.com/WeWantMicha...iceOfSamFisher (https://www.facebook.com/WeWantMichaelIronsideBackForTheVoiceOfSamFisher)

[Dieinthedark]

Please show support for this Facebook page so Ubisoft don't replace the voice of Sam Fisher!

https://www.facebook.com/WeWantMicha...iceOfSamFisher (https://www.facebook.com/WeWantMichaelIronsideBackForTheVoiceOfSamFisher)

Uh dude, wrong forums, trust me, I'm not thrilled about it either but Michael Ironside is gone.

[Guardian101]

Q: What happened at Ubisoft? Were you working on Rainbow Six Patriots?

A: (David Sears) What doesn’t happen at Ubisoft? It’s a big company full of interesting, talented people. There was something to learn every day. But if you’re referring to why I left Rainbow Six: Patriots, a game that I was directing, I can tell you that the executive producer and I mutually agreed that I would leave the project. I still say it was my idea based on the circumstances and it wasn’t because the vision was not supported by editorial or senior management; quite the opposite since they were staunch supporters. Let’s just say that we agree to disagree on my approach and direction style for that particular director/producer dynamic. I was given another franchise in the Ubisoft library on which I successfully established the vision for the project. Yannis Mallat, the director of the studio in Montreal made sure I was welcome at the studio if I ever wanted to return. And much like the SOCOM franchise when I left Zipper, it’s not my place to discuss Rainbow Six now that I’ve left Ubisoft. I wish my former colleagues there nothing but the best.

[Dcopymope]

Q: What happened at Ubisoft? Were you working on Rainbow Six Patriots?

A: (David Sears) What doesn’t happen at Ubisoft? It’s a big company full of interesting, talented people. There was something to learn every day. But if you’re referring to why I left Rainbow Six: Patriots, a game that I was directing, I can tell you that the executive producer and I mutually agreed that I would leave the project. I still say it was my idea based on the circumstances and it wasn’t because the vision was not supported by editorial or senior management; quite the opposite since they were staunch supporters. Let’s just say that we agree to disagree on my approach and direction style for that particular director/producer dynamic. I was given another franchise in the Ubisoft library on which I successfully established the vision for the project. Yannis Mallat, the director of the studio in Montreal made sure I was welcome at the studio if I ever wanted to return. And much like the SOCOM franchise when I left Zipper, it’s not my place to discuss Rainbow Six now that I’ve left Ubisoft. I wish my former colleagues there nothing but the best.

So there you have it folks, he left because Ubi Soft and a few other people on the staff wanted to screw with his vision for the game. He agreed to disagree and got out of there. So now we know for sure that this game is toast, its finished. Whatever Sears was working on will not be there, or it will casualized in some way to appeal to the "mass market", if we are to pretend that such a thing even exists.

[CyberCam]

Q: What happened at Ubisoft? Were you working on Rainbow Six Patriots?

A: (David Sears) What doesn’t happen at Ubisoft? It’s a big company full of interesting, talented people. There was something to learn every day. But if you’re referring to why I left Rainbow Six: Patriots, a game that I was directing, I can tell you that the executive producer and I mutually agreed that I would leave the project. I still say it was my idea based on the circumstances and it wasn’t because the vision was not supported by editorial or senior management; quite the opposite since they were staunch supporters. Let’s just say that we agree to disagree on my approach and direction style for that particular director/producer dynamic. I was given another franchise in the Ubisoft library on which I successfully established the vision for the project. Yannis Mallat, the director of the studio in Montreal made sure I was welcome at the studio if I ever wanted to return. And much like the SOCOM franchise when I left Zipper, it’s not my place to discuss Rainbow Six now that I’ve left Ubisoft. I wish my former colleagues there nothing but the best.
All you have to do is read between the lines like Dcopymope did, they did not want a hardcore game, but mass market general shooter that the COD fans can get into and forget in a month or so!

[Bassie52]

i don't know if that's the case, it could be that there's something other going on, then what you guys think..
It could be that there are some Americans, who don't like the idea of homegrown terrorrists and moral choices in killing American civillians, in order to save the live of others.
It's to close to there beds and they think these kinds of "satanic" games will infect the young minds of there children..

These are the type of people that you didn't hear, when you were killing Russians, Africans, Arabic, Asian and European folk, in like every freakin shooter out there..

Now America is Ubi's no1 consumer.
http://youtu.be/qU9JCrJCdGw

[Dcopymope]

i don't know if that's the case, it could be that there's something other going on, then what you guys think..
It could be that there are some Americans, who don't like the idea of homegrown terrorrists and moral choices in killing American civillians, in order to save the live of others.
It's to close to there beds and they think these kinds of "satanic" games will infect the young minds of there children..

These are the type of people that you didn't hear, when you were killing Russians, Africans, Arabic, Asian and European folk, in like every freakin shooter out there..

Now America is Ubi's no1 consumer.
http://youtu.be/qU9JCrJCdGw

Haha, talk about living in utter denial, lets take a look at that quote again and read even further between the lines, as CyberCam said.


Q: What happened at Ubisoft? Were you working on Rainbow Six Patriots?

A: (David Sears) What doesn’t happen at Ubisoft? It’s a big company full of interesting, talented people. There was something to learn every day. But if you’re referring to why I left Rainbow Six: Patriots, a game that I was directing, I can tell you that the executive producer and I mutually agreed that I would leave the project. still say it was my idea based on the circumstances and it wasn’t because the vision was not supported by editorial or senior management; quite the opposite since they were staunch supporters. Let’s just say that we agree to disagree on my approach and direction style for that particular director/producer dynamic. I was given another franchise in the Ubisoft library on which I successfully established the vision for the project. Yannis Mallat, the director of the studio in Montreal made sure I was welcome at the studio if I ever wanted to return. And much like the SOCOM franchise when I left Zipper, it’s not my place to discuss Rainbow Six now that I’ve left Ubisoft. I wish my former colleagues there nothing but the best.

Knowing Ubi Soft's stated policy of dumbing down their games to appeal to the mass market, the issue obviously had nothing at all to do with homegrown terrorism and the choices the player will make in certain situations. I can guarantee you beyond any shadow of a doubt that this has everything to do with Sears general gameplay design not lining up with their stated aforementioned policy of mass market appeal. I remember one of the lead devs said in an interview that Patriots would have a little of the new school and old school Rainbow Six gameplay, like Raven Shield, he said, but all that talk of bringing back some of the old school gameplay was hushed up as soon as he, Sears and the rest of the lead devs were suddenly removed from the project. You can continue to keep your hopes up for a doomed franchise or you can support companies like Serellan that unlike Ubi Soft actually promises to give us a real Rainbow Six game with the game 'Takedown', you know, more like Raven Shield PC.

[Bassie52]

haha i''m not denying anything, maybe you are?.
You only know as much as me about Patriots.

Don't you think it's a bit strange to fire all those people, just because Ubisoft want's to change the gameplay???..

It's less strange, if Ubisoft wants to change the story (or parts of the story), that Sears and his team created for R6P.
You can see in the vids, that Sears and his team really stood behind there orginal ideas, for RSP.

This is more likely to have coused a stir between Sears and Ubisoft.
"Let's just say we agree to disagree on my approach and direction style for that particular direction/ producer dynamic"

[Dcopymope]

haha i''m not denying anything, maybe you are?.
You only know as much as me about Patriots.

Don't you think it's a bit strange to fire all those people, just because Ubisoft want's to change the gameplay???..

Not at all, not if they thought that Sears approach to the gameplay was going to potentially hurt it in sales, since Ubi Soft is convinced that mass market appeal by any means necessary is the only way to go, which means be a copy cat, even at the expense of what truly made the Tom Clancy brand successful to begin with, which doesn't include the story. When it comes down to it, its all about making money with Ubi Soft, and by and large, neither the fanbase and this vague audience that apparently exists somewhere out there in space called the "mass market" will care much about the nature of the story. The nature of the story has never stopped most people from buying games like Rainbow Six, but the quality of the gameplay has, but good luck telling that to Ubi Soft as they continue to churn out low grade crap.

[Bassie52]

Well the story in Patriots is well connected to it's gameplay.
R6 used to have a 4-player co-op in campaign and Sears story only allowes the campaign to be a single player.
This and the moral choices, only show how important the story is to the game in overall.

We can only be sure, when we hear something from the R6P Dev team..my guess is they changed the whole story.

[Dieinthedark]

You know they did. Somebody thought it would look bad on their part. So expect typical bad guys, Russian, Middle Eastern or Asian. :/

[Justin-x]

Until they have re-licensed R6 with a different name or have dropped the R6P license all together,we can't say for sure if they have fully changed the story.

[Dieinthedark]

Not for sure, true. But within reason I think it's more than a safe bet.

[Justin-x]

Like I said though, unless the name "Rainbow Six: Patriots" is dropped, the concept of "Patriots" will still appear in the game. Whether the Patriots are still a big part of the story or if they are even the enemies is another matter entirely.

(hate to say it but the cynic inside me does agree with you Die)

[Dieinthedark]

I really wished I shared your optimism. Honestly though, I can't even say at this point that even titled Patriots the game won't turn into another Russian/Chinese/Middle Eastern bad guy has a WMD. Like I'm saying I doubt that it would even take place here. Not saying that it won't but I could see it happening.

Just voicing opinion, certainly not trollin' lol

[Bassie52]

Just look at how they completely changed GRFS and SCC, after working on them for 2 years.
The story, expensive movie trailers and complete map vids, all flushed through the crapper.

My guess is that we will see a co-op campaign, with a GRFS/ Vegas like story and gameplay, called patriots

[Strikebait]

All they're doing is dumbing down the game to reach a wider audience. You'll be seeing a lot more of that in the next few years.

[Bassie52]

I don't know, grfs 2 sales should answer our (and Ubisofts) questions..