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View Full Version : oomagooma, for lack of a better title.?



green_abobo
01-26-2012, 04:46 AM
how goes? this is one of those timeless games that i'll leave on my HD because i can always go back to it, after long periods of time, and have fun with it.

just thought i'd ask others how they go about their patrols, maybe we can learn something from one another. it is my understanding that a combination of tactics are best to acheive maximum tonnage, and surviability when theres a world war going on around you.

here goes, what class of sub/tactics do you prefer and why?

fleet boats, i like the balao, gato, and gar classes mostly (10 tubes, dive deeper) although i will also fool around with tambor and salmons too. uboats, the type IX all the way.

i mostly use okane style shooting, especially against merchants. i try to use fast 90's (or as close to it as possible) against task forces and warships. i dont bother going after escorts unless they really piss me off. i avoid using "standard firing procedures" in a fleet boat if at all possible because i dont care for the stadimeter, or having to set up spreads manually on the TDC, along with the dreaded position keeper.

normally, i'll dive as deep as i can and then run as fast as i can to get close enough to set up an attack. then cut the engines, rig for silent run, then float on up to periscope depth to line up a shot.

along the way, i'll use the 3 minute rule to calculate speed, this can be tricky sometimes though because it requires actual visual detection or radar. i'll usually empty bow tubes first, then turn and line up a reverse fast 90 shot. (from 180 bearing instead of 0) ive heard instead maybe i should dive deep again, run stragiht across to the other side of the convoy to then try the 180 shot. thoughts?

what does this community think about MP on ubisoft? does anyone do that anymore? theres hardly ever any games listed there. do you believe its more difficult than SP? i think it may be. coop im talking, never tried adversarial. the first big thing is there's no TC, and you cant pause the game either.

i think the escort AI is enhanced maybe. there i was creeping up on a convoy, over 300ft deep, running silent @ about 1 knot, and then the pings came. the water was fairly calm, but still, i was certainly under thermal layer. suddenly, they were all over me before i could even get a shot off. kinda nuts.

i play with 80 realiism (everything except map contacts/external view) just started playing stock again because im not up to date on mods, and usually, everytime i install one, something bad will happen eventually making me reinstall, which i'd just rather avoid for now.

my goal is to eventually attain 100% realism. still a work in progress. my sonar skills obviously leave room for serious improvement. my biggest thing, i have no idea how one could possibly calculate range, and therefore speed, using sonar only, especially if the conditions wont allow for visual detection. although this would allow for easier stealth in most cases. what if you dont have radar either?

watching bbc's "battle for the atlantic" the one german ex kreigsmarine commented that when the weather was bad, the only thing they cared about was self preservation and not attacking, which is kinda counter intuative compared to SH4 mechanics.

thoughts? as you were.

Magic452
01-26-2012, 09:00 AM
To help with your sonar skills check out this post.
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/537505-Sonar-vs-Stadimeter?p=8115041&viewfull=1#post8115041

Playing stock with map contacts on just have your sonar man track closest contact and then mark your X at the end of the bearing line.
That range is pretty accurate and you can plot course and get speed by the three minute rule. I do 3, 6 and 9 minutes and get a very accurate speed and course.

Take the ruler and turn on tool helper and you get a compass rose, place the center of the rose on the target course line and read the number closest to the target. That is the target heading in degrees. remember this number. Go to the peri screen and first turn on the PK. Next go to the data input dials and input speed and sent to PK. Third go to the AoB dial and turn the dial to the side of the target you will shoot at, Starboard or Port. Turn the dial a few degrees and sent to PK and when you do you'll see the top dial on the left side move and the bow of the target will point to the ring of numbers on the outside of the dial. Those numbers are the target course in degrees (4=40°, 9=90°,etc.) Just turn the AoB dial till the bow of the target ship points to the course you measured on the map. Once the target lines up with that course send to PK. You now have a very good AoB and the PK will keep this for you as long as the target holds course and speed.

You now have two thirds of your firing solution and you haven't even seen the target yet.

You by now should be in a good firing position and when the you get visual on the target all you need is range and bearing.
In stock the only way to set range is with the steadimeter but you have plenty of time to do this.
ID the target and take a steadimeter reading and send to PK. Check you firing solution on the Attack map. The white X should be on or very close to the target and stay there. If the X moves head of the target your speed is too fast, falls behind, too slow.
If it moves left or right of the course line AoB is off check the course on the TDC dials and adjust to the correct course you measured.

White X too long or too short, range is off. Retake the steadimeter reading. It takes some practice but you can adjust the range good enough to get a good firing solution. The stock game steadimeter is really buggy, mast highs are wrong among other things. You just play with the steadimeter till you get a good solution on the attack map. Once you get the hang of it it is pretty quick to do.
The dreaded PK is your best friend once you learn what it can do.

You said you have trouble with mods but Captn Scurvy's Ship Centered Accuracy Fix, SCAF, mod fixes most all the problems with the steadimeter and it's a very good steady mod that shouldn't cause any problems. It uses funnels or decks to get range and is far more accurate. I always use it my old eyes can't see the masts. To avoid reinstalling, with a clean stock game just make a copy of the Data folder in the game folder. Put that copy in safe place and if you have mod problems just delete the Data folder and replace it with a fresh copy of the saved folder.
All mods work within the Data folder.

You approach targets just the opposite as I do. I stay on the surface as long as possible, you can see them before they see you so I just keep the target visible on the horizon and get far enough ahead that I can get in my attack position before they can see me. I dive to Peri depth at that time and I'm all set. When you have Radar it's all that much easier. I almost never approach a convoy at anything below PD or radar depth. Going deep and fast uses too much maybe much needed battery, you may need all the battery you've got to evade escorts, you want to go into battle with as much on your side as possible and you use too much fuel recharging, you might need that later on.

My firing position will depend on many factors, weather conditions, day or night, type of target(s) and what type attack I'm going to make.
If it's a single merchant I'll attack as soon as I can with a PK/TDC shot, it's good practice. A escorted convoy I'll track till I have the most favorable conditions I can get. I may attack with a vector analysis or O'kane attack for the first target and a PK shot for a second from long range, or not?, depends on what I have. The one thing I always have is the most favorable conditions I can get no matter how long it takes. Stocking a target is the most fun for me, sinking things is just icing on the cake. I never get greedy, I'll pick the two best targets, shoot them and get the heck out of Dodge. Do an end around and repeat till I have nothing to shoot at. I NEVER attack at a 90° approach. This puts a flanking DD right in front of your nose, I always attack at an approach angle (AoB) of 65 to 70° you're clear of the lead and flanking DDs and give the smallest profile to their sonar.

If I'm felling real brave I'll use the deep and silent thing and try to get to peri depth right in the middle of the convoy and let loose with as much as I can as fast as I can and than duck for cover. With TMO that's hard to do however.

The stock escort AI isn't all that hard to beat, get into a good firing position, shoot form long range and stay at peri depth. You may never hear a ping let alone a depth charge. If you do get DCed and they are close go Flank speed for about 10 or 15 seconds and give no more than 15° rudder for turns, cut to 1 knot and zero rudder and coast as far as possible. More than 15° rudder cuts you coasting time.
Another little trick I've found is when I attack with the bow tubes I'll go deep and back out instead of turning around. I had to change the Telegraph setting for slow to one knot to do this as you can't set reverse speed with the Knotometer. I use one and three knots for reverse speeds.

I most often play a Gato or Balao but when I feel up to a challenge I'll take an old rust bucket S boat out. If you can successfully fight an S boat you can fight anything.

I did the 100% thing for a time but didn't really enjoy it so I went back to map contacts on and external cam.
I'm playing TMO 2.2 at the moment.

A Uboat is a fair amount smaller so I would expect that bad weather was not something they looked forward to. A fleetboat is bigger and more stable in heavy seas but still not a very pleasant experience.

Well that's my take on things, I'm sure someone else will come along and give a completely different story.

Magic

WernherVonTrapp
01-26-2012, 02:31 PM
watching bbc's "battle for the atlantic" the one german ex kreigsmarine commented that when the weather was bad, the only thing they cared about was self preservation and not attacking, which is kinda counter intuative compared to SH4 mechanics.

thoughts? as you were.That might be, because the German U-Boats didn't have radar installed on their subs and could not operate on the surface or in inclement weather against the technologically superior radar capabilities of the allies. Only but a few of the newer German submarines carried radar prototypes for use in subs. By contrast, the IJN submarines were regularly fitted with microwave radar systems and, although inferior to radar aboard U.S. subs, it served well in letting them know when to dive to avoid allied air attacks. The Germans had no such advantage.

Post Script: OT: These word filters are getting a little ridiculous and over-reactive. I cannot even write the word ***anese, which is a common, benign, term to denote an ethnicity (or race) and a culture.:eek:

captgeo
01-27-2012, 01:36 PM
That might be, because the German U-Boats didn't have radar installed on their subs and could not operate on the surface or in inclement weather against the technologically superior radar capabilities of the allies. Only but a few of the newer German submarines carried radar prototypes for use in subs. By contrast, the IJN submarines were regularly fitted with microwave radar systems and, although inferior to radar aboard U.S. subs, it served well in letting them know when to dive to avoid allied air attacks. The Germans had no such advantage.

Post Script: OT: These word filters are getting a little ridiculous and over-reactive. I cannot even write the word ***anese, which is a common, benign, term to denote an ethnicity (or race) and a culture.:eek:


German U-Boats had radar, and radar detectors,the later used to give away their locations.

American subs could not fire their guns on the surface in high wave conditions for fear of losing their crew's,just like all other navys at the time.

WernherVonTrapp
01-28-2012, 04:57 AM
German U-Boats had radar, and radar detectors,the later used to give away their locations.

American subs could not fire their guns on the surface in high wave conditions for fear of losing their crew's,just like all other navys at the time.Yes they did. In an effort to be brief, I misrepresented my point. What I should've said was that they didn't have the advantages of radar, even though it was installed on a number of U-Boats. There are a number of reasons for this (too many for my hunt & peck typing skills), but I'll try my best to elaborate. I should've realized that a more elaborate explanation would eventually be forthcoming.
Actually, it would be better if I cite excerpts from my book:

"The advantages that might accrue from equipping submarines with radar, used with such excellent effect by the Americans in the Pacific War, had not escaped German thought, and in March 1942 five boats had been equipped with a modification of the 80 cm Seetakt. It had a six-dipole array each for transmitter and receiver mounted in arcs on the conning tower. The fixed antenna required swinging the ship for direction, although phase-shift circuits to the dipoles allowed 10° swings to the left and right. In operation its range proved to be significantly less than the 9-13km specified by the manufacturer. It also suffered from the unreliability that generally attended the introduction of new naval radar, the combined result of design that did not properly account for operation aboard a submarine and of not adaquately training members of the crew in its operation. The bulk it added to an already crowded interior and its failure to achieve notable success led to its rejection by boat commanders, as was a modification with a steerable antenna tried out a few months later. A 50 cm airborne sea-search radar, the Hohentwiel, was adapted to submarines in December 1943 and had good use in a few cases, but in general the skippers refused to turn it on, so great was the fear of detection through emanations."

As far as German Metox/Naxos-U passive receivers for U-Boats:

"17 March 1943...
...all were named Naxos, Naxos-U being for U-Boats. All sets were delayed because of the difficulties in fabricating the crystal diodes for the detectors, and the submarine design had additional problems, ones that had not troubled Metox. The 1.5 m receiver had a wooden frame to hold the antenna, the Biscay Cross, which could be taken below in the few seconds allowed for a crash dive. A similar arrangement for Naxos_U, issued to the U-Boat men in October 1943, required coaxial cables capable of operating at higher frequencies, and the cables available had fragile insulation easily damaged by the rough treatment of moving the antenna below in a crash dive. The mistreated cables generated standing waves with lowered transmission the consequences. This added measurably to the difficulty of poor sensitivity in the experimental sets tried in the summer of 1943 and helped compound the confusion."

Now with simply paraphrasing from the book, 1943 was the period in which the allies began transitioning to microwave radar sets, which the Metox/Naxos-U passive receivers could not detect.

Back to citing from the book:

"...and on 13 August Dönitz ordered all Metox sets removed from service. A replacement receiver that radiated substantially less and that was also specially designed to detect short bursts of radar signal, the WanzG-1, was quickly put into service and just as quickly removed, yet most patrol aircraft were still equipped with the 1.5 m radar. By the end of 1943 U-Boat skippers mistrusted all radio equipment."
-Technical And Military Imperatives: A Radar History Of World War II
by Louis Brown

There's much more, and just too much, information in this book, (technical and practical), to paint the complete picture. In a nutshell, it's one thing to have radar, it's another thing to have a practical working set that a U-Boat commander can apply and rely on.
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/a6a016ba.gif

BTW, I timed myself, it took me over 40 minutes to complete this reply.

MWolfe1963
01-28-2012, 06:53 AM
i actually just started a career the other day, haven't played in some time, mostly working on tweaking and modding the game. I decided to tweak TMO alone without RSRD, although I love the historic traffic of RSRD, TMO alone traffic has a better zig patterns, speed and higher crew ratings. Much easier to add ships to TMO than RSRD and adding traffic is much easier. I've tweaked to where the game rewards you with correct tactics, but punishes you for mistakes, I died my first 3 patrols.

My tactics are based on the situation, so I use several shooting methods. I don't like the fast 90, often leaves your broadsides open to sonar. When I'm serious I take my time and plot and try to attack when conditions are most favorable. I'm playing now 93%, contacts on and I use the setting for stable binocs. I enjoy playing with cams off.

captgeo
01-28-2012, 01:35 PM
@ wern LOL ......I knew I could PROD you into a detailed explanation........better then me spending 40min's myself. LMAO

It only took me 2 mins

WernherVonTrapp
01-28-2012, 02:12 PM
@ wern LOL ......I knew I could PROD you into a detailed explanation........better then me spending 40min's myself. LMAO

It only took me 2 mins The funnist part (or maybe not so funny) is that, when I finally finished it, I couldn't believe I actually went through all the trouble to post it. I asked myself: "Now why the heck didn't I just leave it alone?" I've had a propensity to overexplain as long as I can remember.
It's truly one of the fatal flaws of my personality.http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/0aac1781.gif My typing is horrendous, to say the least. I'm always hitting the wrong keys, double typing words, etc. Just look at all the posts I've edited for "Grammatical" purposes.
Yup, you got me that time buddy.http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/2d2c3536.gif

paulhager
01-28-2012, 03:47 PM
If you go through my postings, my style should emerge. To some extent, it is a function of the Mods I use, most importantly TMO 2.5 and RSRDC

I run at either 90% (to allow screen shots), or 100% (on those occasions when I opt for high realism). With TMO 2.5, 100% allows for surface contacts on. I've discussed this elsewhere.

I exclusively use the torpedeo data computer (TDC) and the position keeper (PK). In a few rare cases when I have to snap fire torpedoes, I'll use "kentucky windage" and no PK. I doubt I do it more than once in a career on average.

My preference is for night surface attacks. I've done several posts dealing specifically with how to conduct night surface attacks. Currently, I'm experimenting with how night surface attacks may have changed between the previous version of TMO (v 2.2) and the current (2.5).

Irrespective of whether the attack is day or night, I always try to send in a report to HQ. At least half the time, this will result in a sink ships objective which is worth additional renown.

When spotting, I approach so as to produce the smallest silhouette. This is most important when attacking a fast TF during the day.

I almost never attack at 90º. In some of my earlier careers, I made an approach/attack that I called the "Morton 120", a variation of the tactical method used by "Mush" Morton, as documented by O'Kane in his book about the Wahoo. Now, the attack angles I use are conditioned on the engagement angle of the tubes, number and types of targets, range, and weather conditions/visibility. In other words, there is no set angle.

I usually like to get an initial, long range radar solution on an arbitrary target in a convoy or TF. I can later refine or switch it when the convoy/TF comes into visual range. I find that having the target course data in the TDC while running the PK makes the targeting process quicker and easier.
As I say, you can read my postings for more details.

swamprat69er
01-29-2012, 12:10 AM
Post Script: OT: These word filters are getting a little ridiculous and over-reactive. I cannot even write the word ***anese, which is a common, benign, term to denote an ethnicity (or race) and a culture.:eek:

Using the word filter 'rules', I guess we can't call Americans americans anymore, nor Canadians canadians nor Englishmen english, so maybe we can call them yanks, canucks and limeys. lol

MWolfe1963
01-29-2012, 03:48 AM
If you go through my postings, my style should emerge. To some extent, it is a function of the Mods I use, most importantly TMO 2.5 and RSRDC

I run at either 90% (to allow screen shots), or 100% (on those occasions when I opt for high realism). With TMO 2.5, 100% allows for surface contacts on. I've discussed this elsewhere.

I exclusively use the torpedeo data computer (TDC) and the position keeper (PK). In a few rare cases when I have to snap fire torpedoes, I'll use "kentucky windage" and no PK. I doubt I do it more than once in a career on average.

My preference is for night surface attacks. I've done several posts dealing specifically with how to conduct night surface attacks. Currently, I'm experimenting with how night surface attacks may have changed between the previous version of TMO (v 2.2) and the current (2.5).

Irrespective of whether the attack is day or night, I always try to send in a report to HQ. At least half the time, this will result in a sink ships objective which is worth additional renown.

When spotting, I approach so as to produce the smallest silhouette. This is most important when attacking a fast TF during the day.

I almost never attack at 90º. In some of my earlier careers, I made an approach/attack that I called the "Morton 120", a variation of the tactical method used by "Mush" Morton, as documented by O'Kane in his book about the Wahoo. Now, the attack angles I use are conditioned on the engagement angle of the tubes, number and types of targets, range, and weather conditions/visibility. In other words, there is no set angle.

I usually like to get an initial, long range radar solution on an arbitrary target in a convoy or TF. I can later refine or switch it when the convoy/TF comes into visual range. I find that having the target course data in the TDC while running the PK makes the targeting process quicker and easier.
As I say, you can read my postings for more details.


Good info. I for one enjoy our detailed patrol reports since you started them long ago, new players using TMO would do well to study them as you do a great job showing proper tracking with the 3d radar to obtain proper tracking. Like you I find the fast 90 type attacks often dangerous against escorts.