2 Questions about the improved Cover System in High Stakes mode

[MD_Sennet]

"The camera has been moved so your character cannot look past their cover unless they expose themselves around a corner."

OK, so basically we now have a button whose primary role is to show us how cool we look while leaning up against a wall, correct? All right! *Double thumbs up!*

Question - does this change also affect looking over top of a waist-high object like a crate or box as well? Or is it only "corners" of a fixed floor-to-ceiling wall?

"The cover system as been changed in High-Stakes mode to encourage players to peek instead of pop-n-shoot."

And by "peek", you mean walk out past the corner very quickly and then walk backwards behind cover, correct? Or has an actual "peek" button (or buttons) been added?

[MD_Sennet]

"The camera has been moved so your character cannot look past their cover unless they expose themselves around a corner."

OK, so basically we now have a button whose primary role is to show us how cool we look while leaning up against a wall, correct? All right! *Double thumbs up!*

Question - does this change also affect looking over top of a waist-high object like a crate or box as well? Or is it only "corners" of a fixed floor-to-ceiling wall?

"The cover system as been changed in High-Stakes mode to encourage players to peek instead of pop-n-shoot."

And by "peek", you mean walk out past the corner very quickly and then walk backwards behind cover, correct? Or has an actual "peek" button (or buttons) been added?

[AntiPersonnel]

you can see the new cover in action in the video here:
http://rainbowsixgame.us.ubi.com/home.php

and by encouraging people to peek, they mean by exposing themselves out of cover by leaning out when in cover.

since you cannot pre-aim in 3rd person, you have to lean out to aim.

[MD_Sennet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AntiPersonnel:
and by encouraging people to peek, they mean by exposing themselves out of cover by leaning out when in cover.

since you cannot pre-aim in 3rd person, you have to lean out to aim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rgr. Got it.

[AntiPersonnel]

i seriously hope they do away with the "back to the wall" posture for the next game, because as it stands with High Stakes cover, you still have to commit to a full lean out by swinging out 180 degrees even if you just intend to survey the area (which exposes the majority of your body).

i hope they take note to a more correct posture where you are facing forward at all times, that way when in cover, you can lean out partially or full, slow or fast, depending on the level of threat on the other side.

and if you just want to take a peek, you arent leaning your entire body out to do so.

[MD_Sennet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AntiPersonnel:
i seriously hope they do away with the "back to the wall" posture for the next game, because as it stands with High Stakes cover, you still have to commit to a full lean out by swinging out 180 degrees even if you just intend to survey the area (which exposes the majority of your body).

i hope they take note to a more correct posture where you are facing forward at all times, that way when in cover, you can lean out partially or full, slow or fast, depending on the level of threat on the other side.

and if you just want to take a peek, you arent leaning your entire body out to do so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed.

And all they have to do is look at your sig.

[oorlogshond]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AntiPersonnel:
i seriously hope they do away with the "back to the wall" posture for the next game, because as it stands with High Stakes cover, you still have to commit to a full lean out by swinging out 180 degrees even if you just intend to survey the area (which exposes the majority of your body).

i hope they take note to a more correct posture where you are facing forward at all times, that way when in cover, you can lean out partially or full, slow or fast, depending on the level of threat on the other side.

and if you just want to take a peek, you arent leaning your entire body out to do so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds very similar as what we have in the singleplayer part of GRAW2. Even though i'm not a fan of a cover system that would be atleast much better and alot more natural than this having your "back against the wall swing all the way out to look or shoot" system.

[KungFu_CIA]

The big issue developers have to do deal with when using any cover system in any game is this:

It is a realistic military tactic... But how you simulate this in a video game?

In other words, it's the execution, not the concept that developers have not gotten 100% accurate so far.

Historically players prefer no cover system at all for MP because the big element in MP is players need to be able to see their opponents (and team mates). Being in any sort of cover is the exact opposite -- Even though this is how real life engagements works; fear and safety of one's life is paramount and cover is what keeps soldiers alive. This fear is completely absent in a video game, obviously, so the need for the degree of cover decreases.

This is why Vegas and other games (Gears of War; Mass Effect; et al.) who use a cover system usually use a 3rd Person POV to compensate for the lack of field of view against a wall in first person. You're staring at a wall (texture) and would not be able to see anything in front of you. Even at a corner.

R6 and Ghost Recon (original PC games) had the lean in first person... But even those postures still aren't accurate, or realistic in my opinion. Shifting your entire torso back and to the side while holding an eight-to-ten pound weapon? I don't care if you are Arnold, or Sly, you still wouldn't have the accuracy those games depict let alone the ability to "slide" effortlessly away from a corner with 100% ballast like Raven Shield allows.

So, what is the answer?

Like Oorlogshond stated, GR on the Xbox 360 has a nice cover system where the soldier is facing forward (at a corner) and he/she is anchored to that piece of cover by their shoulder. It is very similar to the Mass Effect cover mode, except GR keeps the player always facing forward vs. ME who reverts to Vegas-style back-to-cover posture when not peeking out. This is not a perfect system because it is still in 3rd Person, but it is more accurate than Vegas, and is closer to real life doctrines than Vegas ever will be.

However, it is interesting to note this cover feature is not in the MP portion of GRAW on the Xbox 360 because... It all comes back to what I stated before about realism vs. video game mechanics.

To be clear I am not in favor of the 3rd Person cover system in either Vegas game. It's not because I think it is "unskilled" or any of the more esoteric arguments for or against. I just do not like the cover system because the back to a wall posture is fundamentally wrong in terms of proper combat doctrine. No police, law enforcement, or security person is ever going to put their back completely towards a potential threat. This is why it just "looks" wrong, 3rd Person or not. I know why UBI did it, though. They want their games to be more cinematic than accurate and being able to see your character in full 3D glory stacking up is the definition of cinematic immersion.

[adarwinter]

i couldnt agree more, kungfu-cia.
my thoughts exactly, and u put them better than i ever could.

however, leaning like in traditional games (swat4, rainbow6-pc, graw-pc, crysis, COD) with a leaning button IS as close as possible to real life. leaning your body to the side (with a 6 [smgs, or m4\m16] - 10 [lmgs] pounds of weapon) IS how it's done. to make the gun feel more like something u hold in your hand and has weight to it than a significant sway and movement delay could (read "should") be added but all in all it's my favorite way of handeling cover.

but as u said UBI tries (an succeeds) to make vegas feel more like a hollywood movie and not true to life experience like, maybe SWAT4.
the back to cover works well with that intention in mind, as u said.

[gyrocx]

After I saw that video of the High stakes mode I was like "um why don't the just take out the 3rd person mode all together and put the controlled lean back in?" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[zack991]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gyrocx:
After I saw that video of the High stakes mode I was like "um why don't the just take out the 3rd person mode all together and put the controlled lean back in?" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Because they don't want to tick off MLG or the "ARCADE" player... o excuse me the cough...cough wanna be tactical players.

[Rogue__Spear]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gyrocx:
After I saw that video of the High stakes mode I was like "um why don't the just take out the 3rd person mode all together and put the controlled lean back in?" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

It would probably take more coding than they were willing to do.

[neilthecellist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gyrocx:
After I saw that video of the High stakes mode I was like "um why don't the just take out the 3rd person mode all together and put the controlled lean back in?" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because every Halo player will be like "OMG WHAT THE HELL THIS GAME IS WAY TOO HARD BULLS*** UBISOFT YOU SUCK!"

And instead of just the hardcore tactical players hating the game, it'll be EVERYONE hating the game, which will mean Ubisoft not earning ANY money off the Rainbow Six franchise, which means no more development for the Rainbow Six series...

...Hm, not such a bad thought, actually, but http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif (save for another thread)